-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
True magic god resist
- Thread starter Oma-Zi_o022
- Start date
- 1,762
- 789
Okay, let me make things clear here. I had the stance to delay the thread for a while so that DT or whoever else that were AGAINST it could voice their opinions and debate about it. But this isn't a fair discussion.
What is essentionally happening is a member of authority is walling us off and refusing to actually debate us because they don't like a particularly argument we're offering. Ant, surely you agree a site like this needs to run off actual debates and discussions rather than one individual with higher authority walling the discussion off to avoid a CRT going through, yes?
I am perfectly openi to discussing and, if given suffecient evidence against the revision, will cede my stance. However, I can't do that if I'm not given any proof against my stance, and neither is he giving us the chance to have an open debate about it.
That's not how a member of the staff should handle things. I'm not saying there needs to be concequences or anything, that'd be silly, but I'd like to clear up misunderstandings and try to allow you to see the problem that we are facing right now.
What is essentionally happening is a member of authority is walling us off and refusing to actually debate us because they don't like a particularly argument we're offering. Ant, surely you agree a site like this needs to run off actual debates and discussions rather than one individual with higher authority walling the discussion off to avoid a CRT going through, yes?
I am perfectly openi to discussing and, if given suffecient evidence against the revision, will cede my stance. However, I can't do that if I'm not given any proof against my stance, and neither is he giving us the chance to have an open debate about it.
That's not how a member of the staff should handle things. I'm not saying there needs to be concequences or anything, that'd be silly, but I'd like to clear up misunderstandings and try to allow you to see the problem that we are facing right now.
- 10,273
- 1,847
DT isn't the only knowledgeable member on this site about Toaru and SURELY we don't need his blessing to do every little thing in the verse.
Ant, what point of DT do you even support? We have WALLS of texts and evidence backing our claims.
We had the dam thread opened for DAYS and the best thing he could come up with is "Lol no I am satff"
Ant, what point of DT do you even support? We have WALLS of texts and evidence backing our claims.
We had the dam thread opened for DAYS and the best thing he could come up with is "Lol no I am satff"
- 1,762
- 789
Isn't that just a technicality? If that's the case, it doesn't matter if we put them as Resistances since they accomplish the same thing. No reason not to just call them that. It's just resistance with extra words.Malox1696 said:
- 1,762
- 789
"Resistance is the ability to lessen the effectiveness of certain techniques and abilities through whatever means, such as greatly decreasing the potency of Mind Manipulation or nullifying it altogether."
Well there we go. MG's lessen the effectiveness of eachothers abilities to produce stalemates, hence they're resistances. A counter would imply that once they avoid/null the move they have an advantage, which they don't.
Well there we go. MG's lessen the effectiveness of eachothers abilities to produce stalemates, hence they're resistances. A counter would imply that once they avoid/null the move they have an advantage, which they don't.
- 168,530
- 77,294
Well, I am neutral about this issue myself, but I agree that it would be preferable if DontTalk could find the time to discuss this further. He tends to be very busy.
Perhaps the Malox solution could be an idea?
Perhaps the Malox solution could be an idea?
- 1,762
- 789
If it comes to that, I don't entirely mind but it seems unnecessary since they already manipulate all those forces. Logically, let me put it this way. A counter would imply that they'd need to take an action to prevent the move from touching them, right?
We know this isn't the case, otherwise MG's could defeat eachother when the other isn't looking, and we know for a fact that a scenario like that isn't possible. Otherwise there wouldn't be an endless stalemate. True GREMLIN was made in general BECAUSE this wasn't a viable method to defeating eachother. Therefor, it wouldn't fall under counters.
We know this isn't the case, otherwise MG's could defeat eachother when the other isn't looking, and we know for a fact that a scenario like that isn't possible. Otherwise there wouldn't be an endless stalemate. True GREMLIN was made in general BECAUSE this wasn't a viable method to defeating eachother. Therefor, it wouldn't fall under counters.
- 10,942
- 12,445
First, the tiering revision for the MG's came around and I had the impression people wanted to deal with that first as the revision is much more important.
Second, there is little point to eternally continuing a debate that is just going in circles. You didn't bring new evidence to the table I chose to ignore, it's just both sides reformulating the same arguments again and again in this point. I know the quotes what you are basing it on and consider the consequences you are implying too speculative.
And no. You should not get a random person to FRA this. You should get a staff member, give him your thesis and the quotes regarding it and then have them make an informed decision on the subject.
Lately these threads are absolutely unreadable for anyone without the knowledge of the verse, making it impossible for anyone outside the fanbase to evaluate them.
So let me make what I think is a fair offer here: Give me all quotes (from the novel) regarding the resistance you would want for someone that evaluates the issue to know about. (Maybe highlight the most important parts, for easier reading)
Then I will write a CRT on the subject and include just the thesis, the quotes, possibly additional quotes from me and a sentence stating that I personally don't support the thesis.
Then I will go around and ask all Content Moderators, Admins and Bureaucrats for input. (except maybe if they are currently unavailable or very busy)
Following that we just wait a while, so that the staff can write their opinion without having to first read through giant walls of text produced by me arguing with 5 people.
Is that a reasonable compromise?
Second, there is little point to eternally continuing a debate that is just going in circles. You didn't bring new evidence to the table I chose to ignore, it's just both sides reformulating the same arguments again and again in this point. I know the quotes what you are basing it on and consider the consequences you are implying too speculative.
We are not deciding things by popular vote for a reason. The majority of users is always in favor for the upgrades of their favourite verses. We would get awfull statistics if we did it like that.ZERO7772 said:
And no. You should not get a random person to FRA this. You should get a staff member, give him your thesis and the quotes regarding it and then have them make an informed decision on the subject.
Lately these threads are absolutely unreadable for anyone without the knowledge of the verse, making it impossible for anyone outside the fanbase to evaluate them.
So let me make what I think is a fair offer here: Give me all quotes (from the novel) regarding the resistance you would want for someone that evaluates the issue to know about. (Maybe highlight the most important parts, for easier reading)
Then I will write a CRT on the subject and include just the thesis, the quotes, possibly additional quotes from me and a sentence stating that I personally don't support the thesis.
Then I will go around and ask all Content Moderators, Admins and Bureaucrats for input. (except maybe if they are currently unavailable or very busy)
Following that we just wait a while, so that the staff can write their opinion without having to first read through giant walls of text produced by me arguing with 5 people.
Is that a reasonable compromise?
- 1,762
- 789
Okay, please do that. I'm not available to give them atm but if you can wait until later tonight I can do it or if someone else can grab them from this thread/the novel that'd be helpful.
- 1,762
- 789
Oh yeah, agree with Zensum.
- 2,527
- 238
how would u change it then ? u acknowledge that they can counter each others : " Using your own ability to counter another ability isn't a resistance. If two MG's use their fate manipulation to counter each others fate manipulation that is no feat of resistance. "
but this is passive, I don't care if u call it resistance or anything but on the profile it should be mentioned that they can do it
and probability/fate manipulation (the 50/50 and 100% powers) is something that is required to be a MG
""This may be a bit hard to understand for someone at the age where you still believe in infinite possibilities. Just think of flipping a coin. The odds of getting heads or tails are 50/50. That is the true identity of 'infinite possibilities'. Whenever you take an action, you carry both the possibility for success and the possibility for failure. No matter how hard you train, you still have 50% odds of losing in a fight to a child. That is what a Magic God is." "
but this is passive, I don't care if u call it resistance or anything but on the profile it should be mentioned that they can do it
and probability/fate manipulation (the 50/50 and 100% powers) is something that is required to be a MG
""This may be a bit hard to understand for someone at the age where you still believe in infinite possibilities. Just think of flipping a coin. The odds of getting heads or tails are 50/50. That is the true identity of 'infinite possibilities'. Whenever you take an action, you carry both the possibility for success and the possibility for failure. No matter how hard you train, you still have 50% odds of losing in a fight to a child. That is what a Magic God is." "
- 10,942
- 12,445
I would leave the 50/50 out of this to focus on what's most important. If it gets accepted probability manip resistance would be with it anyways and if not we can talk about that point afterwards.Zensum said:
Would "The Magic Gods should have resistance to all of their own abilities, because the novel suggests that they can't oneshot each other." be ok or should I formulate this differently?
I would like to let the quotes talk for themself, for the most part.
- 1,574
- 457
These seem to be the relevant quotes related to True Gremlin. Others can add more.
"But you are at least faintly aware of it, aren't you?" The High Priest seemed to be testing him. "We Magic Gods have everything. We have the power to destroy the world and remake it from scratch. Also, we feel no threat from the outside world. An attack from anything other than a Magic God would be less noticeable than a mosquito bite."
"Then your problem is…?" "Yes. That leaves a struggle over resources with the other Magic Gods. We all have the power to change everything, but there is only one world. Think of it like having ten painters but only one canvas. If they each continually try to overwrite it as they see fit, it would develop into a fistfight. Do you understand what I'm saying?" The golden world Othinus had shown him had only been happiness as she saw it. If there had been five or ten Magic Gods there, they each would have added their own ideas of happiness and come into conflict. As a result, they might have started fighting to protect their own version of happiness. Simply put… "If there had only been a single god, there would not have been a problem. But that is not how it turned out." "So there's just too much power between all of you?" "Hah hah! Indeed. That is a good way of putting it. We have too much power. And Gremlin is the reconciliation council that was created." Kamijou recalled the idea of magic names. Magicians carved those names into their hearts and they represented the original desire that led them to step from the normal path. They all self-deprecatingly said those desires would never be granted, but they still never stopped reaching for that jewel-like glitter. But what if their wishes could be granted in five seconds? They had not known if they could accomplish it even after a long, long life's work, so what if it was complete after just a few moments?
What would they do with the power they were left with? And what if others also had enough power to singlehandedly create or destroy the world? "It isn't something we could simply ignore," said the High Priest. "Kamijou Touma, do you believe in destiny?" "Destiny?" "Ha ha. That may be difficult for someone poisoned by science in Academy City, but you must have always felt that you were burdened with misfortune." "…" "There is such a thing as unavoidable destiny. There are powerful rails that cannot be overcome by an individual's decisions. But even that is ultimately nothing more than the result of an unseen clash between the opinions of Magic Gods. Of course, we have no intention of harming any specific individual. In fact, the individuals clinging to this puny planet never enter our field of vision. Still, our actions are constantly affecting the outside world and make great changes in the world. It can be quite a problem."
If Kamijou had not known better, he might have reflexively argued back, but he knew the power of a true Magic God. If multiple individuals with Othinus's full power existed in a single world, he could see how they would end up in an unmanageable fight over their ideas of happiness. In which case…
"I already said that we have no interest in the outside world. The different Magic Gods are fighting over the limited resources to decide what to do with the one and only world. Whether we peacefully talk it out or exchange blows, our actions could unintentionally shake destiny to the point that the outside world is destroyed. Even for us, there are areas where we do not know what should be done with the world and cannot tell where the world is headed. But what if we could provide a definite directional focus with a singular set of values?"
Didn't the High Priest tell you what the true Gremlin wants?" "You mean that stuff about having me score the distortions and destiny created when you Magic Gods fight over resources?
"But you are at least faintly aware of it, aren't you?" The High Priest seemed to be testing him. "We Magic Gods have everything. We have the power to destroy the world and remake it from scratch. Also, we feel no threat from the outside world. An attack from anything other than a Magic God would be less noticeable than a mosquito bite."
"Then your problem is…?" "Yes. That leaves a struggle over resources with the other Magic Gods. We all have the power to change everything, but there is only one world. Think of it like having ten painters but only one canvas. If they each continually try to overwrite it as they see fit, it would develop into a fistfight. Do you understand what I'm saying?" The golden world Othinus had shown him had only been happiness as she saw it. If there had been five or ten Magic Gods there, they each would have added their own ideas of happiness and come into conflict. As a result, they might have started fighting to protect their own version of happiness. Simply put… "If there had only been a single god, there would not have been a problem. But that is not how it turned out." "So there's just too much power between all of you?" "Hah hah! Indeed. That is a good way of putting it. We have too much power. And Gremlin is the reconciliation council that was created." Kamijou recalled the idea of magic names. Magicians carved those names into their hearts and they represented the original desire that led them to step from the normal path. They all self-deprecatingly said those desires would never be granted, but they still never stopped reaching for that jewel-like glitter. But what if their wishes could be granted in five seconds? They had not known if they could accomplish it even after a long, long life's work, so what if it was complete after just a few moments?
What would they do with the power they were left with? And what if others also had enough power to singlehandedly create or destroy the world? "It isn't something we could simply ignore," said the High Priest. "Kamijou Touma, do you believe in destiny?" "Destiny?" "Ha ha. That may be difficult for someone poisoned by science in Academy City, but you must have always felt that you were burdened with misfortune." "…" "There is such a thing as unavoidable destiny. There are powerful rails that cannot be overcome by an individual's decisions. But even that is ultimately nothing more than the result of an unseen clash between the opinions of Magic Gods. Of course, we have no intention of harming any specific individual. In fact, the individuals clinging to this puny planet never enter our field of vision. Still, our actions are constantly affecting the outside world and make great changes in the world. It can be quite a problem."
If Kamijou had not known better, he might have reflexively argued back, but he knew the power of a true Magic God. If multiple individuals with Othinus's full power existed in a single world, he could see how they would end up in an unmanageable fight over their ideas of happiness. In which case…
"I already said that we have no interest in the outside world. The different Magic Gods are fighting over the limited resources to decide what to do with the one and only world. Whether we peacefully talk it out or exchange blows, our actions could unintentionally shake destiny to the point that the outside world is destroyed. Even for us, there are areas where we do not know what should be done with the world and cannot tell where the world is headed. But what if we could provide a definite directional focus with a singular set of values?"
Didn't the High Priest tell you what the true Gremlin wants?" "You mean that stuff about having me score the distortions and destiny created when you Magic Gods fight over resources?
- 10,942
- 12,445
Anyone still want to add something? If not I will create the thread sometime this evening/night.
Similar threads
