Touhou's Top Tier: 5-A

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

You know just thinking about it we could also fix the issue here of having Planet Level Touhou, possibly Large Planet

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

There's no running from this one.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Bump;

 

[Luvimi]

so, creation of pocket dimesion of sizes comparable or superior to earth is widely superior to 6 tier rigth?

So, should we make the changes?

About Hecatia, she rule 3 hells Earth (outside world, wich is universe-sized but we don't know if she manage other planets (probably not)), Moon Aka fantasy (Gensokyo and the Lunarian moon), and Spiritual world (mostly dream worlds, we know 3 differents dream worlds, Mugenkan wich hold Yuuka's mansion (PC98), Gengetsu and Mugetsu (pc98), Doremy and Giant catfish(could be 2 different world but it is not confirmed) in windows)

So her tier could be from 4C to 2C, but we should write 4C .

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

You know just thinking about it we could also fix the issue here of having Planet Level Touhou, possibly Large Planet

I wouldn't really have a problem with this, considering how casual Suika's feat was. Something like "At least High 6-A, possibly up to 5-A" seems like it would be acceptable as long as the proper reasoning is provided on the pages, though I don't know what others think about this.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

From the looks of it half the people agree on a higher end Touhou, while the other half seems to agree on you with it not being that strong. But if you think that's possible in that way then there's really no other argument. But yeah let's wait and see who else.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Alright so it's still the same as before if we do accept it? Reimu, Marisa, Yukari, Ran, Remilia, Flandre, Kaguya, Utsuho, Suwako, Suika, Tenshi, Eirin, Yuyuko, Patchouli, Kanako, Mokou, Yuuka, Aya, Yorihime, Toyohime, Byakuren, Yuugi, Sagume, Doremy, Miko, Shou, Sukuna, Eiki, Mamizou, Giant Catfish, Dragon God, Rinnosuke and Kasen, possibly Youmu, Sakuya, Sanae, Letty and Alice (With her dolls) basically gets the upgrades of At least high 6-A, possibly/likely 5-A

And meanwhile Luvimi's statement got me thinking.... what if Zun really was talking about the planet itself on the otherworld's 'scale' and he didn't think about the stars and overlying celestial objects? Since he seems to be referring to Otherworlds as the actual planets being not that large and not specifying about the celestial objects around it. Although I don't think it's Universal

 

[Promestein]

That suggestion seems fine to me too; At least High 6-A, possibly 5-A.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I don't agree. There are tons of contradictory things in fiction that we don't accept because of that reason. If we accept this, we'll look biased to Touhou.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Err..there is still kind of a problem.

We are still scaling to Okuu, right? Suika's heaven busting feat being High 6-A isn't really a thing. It's either Unknown or 5-A from what we know. So "At least High 6-A" just from busting heavens isn't right. So it should be "High 6-A, possibly/likely 5-A". Without an at least, unless scaling to Okuu is considered "At least".

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Real Cal, I already addressed that issue with my argument on the Otherworld Zun referring to as the planets and not the space and celestial bodies around it.

 

[Antvasima]

Given what DontTalk replied above, this seems to likely be unreliable.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I disagree, and agree with the upgrades proposed by Promenstein, Saikou, Azathoth and COB.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I seem to be outvoted then. That said, DontTalk is likely the most knowledgeable person about Touhou in this wiki.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

After what I've seen, still don't think that a song has equal footing to a statement.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

@Matthew

Was confused initially by that statement lol.

@Antvasima

From what Donttalk says he doesn't care about Touhou anymore. Although his statement was countered by some of our points along the way alongside my claims on scope and whatnot.

@Real cal

Although I would agree with that, if said song is helping expand with exposition of Gensokyo it's kinda hard to call it that unreliable. If it was just a song then I would definitely agree but not in this case.

 

[Andykhang]

Late post at this point, but agree with the upgrade for now(the possibly one)

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It's technically not a good thing to simply go "Well, this member which I believe to be knowledgeble is against it, so I'll be against it." It's far better to analyse the actual points and counterarguments, and if a large number of Staff Members is against said person, democratically speaking you cannot give the "Win" to him.

 

[Antvasima]

I thought that his argument made sense, and I mentioned that I seem to be outvoted. I do, however, note that I have a high regard for his sense of judgement.

 

[Antvasima]

I only firmly set my foot down in cases when a suggestion might severely harm the internal structure of the wiki. For cases such as this, I am usually flexible.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Forgive me if I sounded rude, it was not my intention.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem, although this wiki is neither a democracy, not a dictatorship. It is run more like a business, in which the people who work there get a vote, and the people who visit get to bring up suggestions.

 

[Antvasima]

I mean, there are plenty of bureaucrats who do run their wikis in a totalitarian manner, and this is technically not against Wikia's rules, but I choose to share the responsibility instead.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Well Ant, I won't eny that Donttalk is one of the wisest and most knowledgeable in Touhou, but in this case me and a couple of others refuted his point.

For 1 it's been explained that the songs pretty much provide even more exposition for Touhou so it wouldn't make sense for it to be fake or false.

For 2, I expained that the scope Zun was talking about is the actual planets and not the actual celestial bodies and existing space that it encompasses.

Also I highly doubt that this is a dictatorship and is one of the wikis I frequent the most because of all the kind members and helpful staff.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then.

Thank you for the vote of confidence.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

No problem ^^

And more insight bump please

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

To leave something lighthearted alongside a bump. Bumps can be entertaining too after all.

 

[Antvasima]

So, is anybody willing to update the statistics according to the staff majority decision?

 

[Andykhang]

...The list is as above right? And what's the updated one again?

 

[Antvasima]

That suggestion seems fine to me too; At least High 6-A, possibly 5-A.

This, I think.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Alright rechecking and these are the people that would get the buffs? It's only Windows era so not including PC-98.

At least High 6-A, likely 5-A

Reimu, Marisa, Yuuka, Patchouli, Remilia, Flandre, Sakuya, Yuyuko, Ran, Yukari, Youmu, Eirin, Kaguya, Mokou, Ex-Keine, Sanae, Reisen (Last two kept up with Junko after all), Aya, Kanako, Suwako, Yuugi, Utsuho, Suika, Tenshi, Iku, Kasen, Shou, Byakuren, Mamizou, Giant Catfish, Miko, Sukuna, Eiki, Yorihime, Toyohime, Sagume, Doremy, Dragon God, Clownpiece (She created moons and is on a higher level than Sagume) Alice (with her dolls and grimoire)

At least High 6-A, possibly 5-A

Komachi, Koishi, Seija, Letty, Nitori (With tech), Futo


Also... er.... Saikou? You included Rinnosuke on the list of the ones to be upgraded. Are you sure about that?

And actually it's Likely 6-A for the higher level batch, and possibly for the second level that may get it.

Edit - Revamped.

 

[Jiangshi1]

@Core You seem to have everyone... but you did forget one... Gensokyo's true savior from Yukari's tyranny: Kanako Yasaka

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

And with that Kanako receives no buffs for outrageous lies.

In all seriousness adjusting it since I missed a few such as Kokoro who managed to take on Reimu, Byakuren and Miko, and Aya holding back on Reimu, and Sumireiko actually threatening to destroy Gensokyo.

Edit - Moved to a different browser since something iffy is happening with my default browser.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm still very doubtful on upgrading a verse on a song (as it would lead to FTL YYH and FTL Santa), and I still see no contradictions with DT's statement. The verse could be Disney or Steven Universe, in which MOST of their lore is explained through songs. If it's contradicted with a statement, then it should be disregarded without a possibly.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

"Upgrading a verse on a song"

On the exposition lore given alongside the release of a CD. Please don't twist facts to make them seem less believable. Notably, 50% of the content of said ""songs"" is solely exposition.

WoG can easily be ignored if it contradicts multiples statements and such. For once, Flash's trillions of C feat being stated as "Below light speed", or (formerly) Homestuck being FTL.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

So is it sang or not? This is confusing, and can be solved with a yes or no. And this is coming from a guy with a very musical background. And it's still fits well with my analogy. Because so is Steven Universe and Disney. If Rebecca Sugar said that Homeworld is close enough to revolve around the Sun, then there goes Pearl's statement of "Out beyond your stars"

Feats> WoG statements. In verse Statements aren't > WoG statments. Let alone just one statement.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It's not. It's literally just lore/story accompanying an official CD Album.

Several statements, alongside one explicit showing (Not a feat technically but still) are over one vague WoG.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Then disregard what I've said. You should remove the part about the music CD then. Also, several statements?

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

What do you mean? It's a lore focused song that explains many things. These very songs are what helps build up the characters and are fundamental to the lore of the Outside World. It's not as if they were just sang for the fun of it in the middle of the story like in Disney. It's a separate canon by itself and helps explain the story.

I explained the issue already or at least argued my case on Donttalk's other point.

The actual scale Zun is calling "Not that big" is the actual planet and not the overlying bodies surrounding them. Not the celestial body nor the space since he's comparing planets.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Hell itself has been stated to be like 200 000 km long, "Paradise" is large enough to contain Amitabha (Y'know, THE Amitabha). And Dream World literally holds a fake version of the Moon + a fake Earth, with all the space between it.