Touhou's Top Tier: 5-A

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Don't underestimate the almighty Catfish.

 

[Andykhang]

How about resolving the incidents that constantly happen and the fact that she was actually acknowledged by Yorihime? Or that she had a chance against Doremy spellcard rules otherwise? Don't hate the thief

And what Saikou and Matt (with the amazing ava) said

Through Spell Card, again, and all of them. She would get hopelessly be atominize if she ever face even Okuu seriously. She got the skill to play the game, I admit, but she doesn't have enough strength overall to justify being able to move planet, since her strongest physical move yet would only be burning an entire mountaint

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

You know one thing that doesn't get nerfed that much in danmaku battles? Speed. And regardless it's still acknowledgement of skill and power. And if you noticed, Yorihime was breaking the rules by making her danmaku undodgeable.

This Mini-Hakkero is a magical item I made when Marisa left her parents' home. Even though it's small, it has extraordinary heating power. It can reduce a single mountain to ashes.

Burning a mountain =/= turning a mountain into ash. And that's in the beginning of the series no? She only got stronger after that.

 

[Andykhang]

But not enough to justify the spell card. Beside, skill are way to masked the different in overall power to win against. And Yorihime doesn't break the rule, she just used a bomb, that "happen" to be using Sakuya's own blown against her, like pretty much any other Touhou character with it. (if that's the scene you're talking about)

And Beside, ZUN aren't ment for her to be your classic OP character like pretty much the other high tier one, but instead to be a character the player could get behind. Out of the fighter character, she's the most human, with human limitation and also strength, to show the human side of Gensokyo. Having her being able to move even mountain with pure strength break that.

 

[Promestein]

She's already Small Country level. That's at the point that it doesn't matter how much stronger she gets, she's already way stronger than human feasibility and therefore that isn't really a valid argument.

 

[Andykhang]

Notice the thing she have for that rank: her Mini-Hakkero. It's a device, and not even human-made one. That's like saying a human-level human with a nuke have a City-level power of attack: It's true that make her strong, but that's showed further her limitation and strength of a human being. That's show just how much you need to be in order to survive against the threat she face.

That's also said she need to held herself a method or a device that could do that for her, instead of just her alone too.

 

[Promestein]

Gensokyo humans in Touhou are already island level.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Meanwhile in PC-98 she takes down Shinki without any of the above....

I know it's alternate canon but there's a limit to how utterly low your lowballs can be. With that kind of logic why don't we go ahead and nerf any human out there who uses any weapon that's seemingly stronger than them eh? Would that satisfy you? For crying out loud she trains to keep up with Reimu and Reimu is powerful enough to the point that she needs the freaking danmaku rules to be balanced. Debating after midnight is not fun, I'm off to sleep but watch what you say Andy.

You have some good points, but they're not sensible on a land where girls fly, fairies are easily dodging lasers (well, mostly), abilities of near no limits are balanced out by danmaku rules and whatnot.

 

[Yamatohime]

Meanwhile in PC-98 she takes down Shinki without any of the above....

Well, considering dialog of Shinki... I can't say that Supreme Ruler of Makai was serious at all.

 

[Promestein]

Just stay on topic please. It doesn't matter if Shinki was serious at all because PC-98 is irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Question. It's been a while, but didn't Suika only destroy a portion of the heavens large enough to reflect the moon? The event itself was perceived to have been the moon itself being destroyed, which would not have been the case had everything around it shattered, as well. That is a long way from scaling Suika to busting all of the heavens.

Regardless, DT seemed to show that ZUN states the otherworlds created by Hermits and such aren't very big in comparison to Earth, so I definitely wouldn't use them for any sort of large planet level scaling.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Reading up the interview

Z	ÒüäÒéìÒüäÒéìÒüéÒéïÒéêÒü¡ÒÇéÕ╣╗µâ│ÚâÀÒééÒÇîþò░þòîÒÇìÒü«ÒéñÒâíÒâ╝Òé©ÒüºÒüÖÒÇéÞªüÒü»ÒÇüµêæÒÇàÒüîÞ¬ìÞ¡ÿÒüùÒüªÒüäÒü¬Òüäõ©ûþòîÒéÆÒü▓ÒüúÒüÅÒéïÒéüÒüªÒÇîþò░þòîÒÇìÒü¿Þ¿ÇÒüúÒüªÒüäÒéïÒü«ÒüºÒÇéµ£êÒü¿Õ£░þÉâÒÇîõ╗ÑÕñûÒÇìÒüºÒüÖÒü¡ÒÇé	There are many of them. Even Gensokyo has the image of an "Otherworld". In short, all the worlds that we don't recognize can be lumped together as "Otherworlds". The "Otherworlds (ikai)" are anything "outside (igai)" the Moon and the Earth.

I'm confused to what it refers to itself tbh. But even then the idea of Maribel's understanding of Hell and Heaven shouldn't be thrown away or be called unreliable just like that.

And nah look at Saikou's response above Azath. Text calrified it and everything. The Heavens could've been in a different dimension or rather area or lies above the clouds even further I suppose. Ngiht's taking a toll on me. Gonna sleep.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Which response? That the feat was casual or?

Because the original text only makes it seem as if the moon portion has been destroyed.

 

[Yamatohime]

Tenshi lives in one part of the Heaven... And it seems Suika can't destroy it by some strange reason (or simple laze).

As for otherworlds. I think its all about pocket dimensions instead of real infinite ones (the only one mentioned is Makai - and it was just, well, mentioned once).

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

@Aza Nothing hints that only a part of Heaven was destroyed. Suika said she destroyed the Heavens itself.

What ZUN said outright contradicts in-game showing and statements. And what himself says seems unsure at best. I think that statement should honestly be discarded. Hell, pretty sure I saw something saying that Hell is much larger than the surface.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

To answer the question of the Reliability of Maribel & Renko. Most of their mini-series is based widely on exposition. Even if they aren't from Gensokyo itself, they are still the outside world humans with the most knowledge about Otheroworlds and such. It would be extremely weird to have so much exposition that ends up being false.

Also, due to how Touhou works, common belief usually equals truth, so it's likely to be true.

Thus, debunking this precise statement over some vague WoG stuff, alongside physical proof of Otherworlds being larger than Earth doesn't feel right at all for me.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Both makes a lot of sense. I further support this.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Saikou

Except it does. The entire reason the moon was thought to be destroyed was because that's the part of Heaven that shattered. Its pieces then spread out before Suika put it back together. Had she destroyed all of Heaven at that time, it wouldn't appear as if the moon had exploded. The moon wouldn't even be important. The entire sky itself and everything reflected in it would have shattered, but it didn't, and nothing points to this.

ZUN's statements don't contradict anything in game, though. It contradicts the assumption that places which appear to contain some sort of moon are large planet sized, when nothing says this for sure. Then, the series' creator comes in and says those realms aren't very large compared to Earth. That should not be discarded. If ZUN's statement contradicted something directly shown, I would agree with you, but it only contradicts assumptions which are not proven to be true.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

It's late here and not on for long but

So since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, all you gotta do is tear the heavens apart!"
Òü®ÒüåÒéäÒüúÒüªµ£êÒéÆþáòÒüäÒüƒÒüïÒü»ÕêñÒüúÒüƒÒüîÒÇüÒü®ÒüåÒéäÒüúÒüªÕñ®ÞôïÒéÆÕë▓ÒüúÒüƒÒü«ÒüïÒü»õ©ìµÿÄÒü«Òü¥Òü¥ÒüáÒüúÒüƒÒÇéÒüƒÒüáÒÇüÚ¼╝Òü«ÕèøÒü»µâ│ÕâÅÒéÆþÁÂÒüÖÒéïÒééÒü«ÒüºÒüéÒéïÒÇéÕñ®ÞôïÒéÆÕë▓Òéïõ║ïÒüÅÒéëÒüäµ£ØÚú»ÕëìÒü¬Òü«ÒüïÒééÒüùÒéîÒü¬ÒüäÒÇé		I understood how she'd broken the moon, but it was unclear how she'd managed to shatter the heavens. Still, the power of the oni defies imagination. They can probably shatter the heavens with their eyes closed and one hand tied behind their back.

If it's only a portion of heavens I don't think it would be considered or called that they can destroy heavens. Of course it's information from Aya but it's still notable. She's specifcally talking about destroying heaven itself, not just a part of it. (both her and Suika

I'm still trying to find something that directly says otherwise

For the otherworld I'll comment some other time

 

[Promestein]

I wasn't aware of the interview statement, and the proof of Senkai being 5-A in size is more of an assumption that was supported by other feats and statements, but with this ZUN statement I'm more skeptical about the upgrades.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Notice how Suika, the one who performed the feat, says "tear the heavens apart". This does not necessarily mean she needed to destroy all of Heaven to perform the feat, and the destruction itself was so precise that, again, it seemed as if the moon had exploded, not as if the sky had shattered to pieces.

This isn't the say Suika definitively couldn't destroy the Heavens, but this does not seem to support her doing so all at once.

That said, the feat was very casual, and thus I don't see why it's rated as "High 6-A" instead of "At least High 6-A" or something like that, as it is clearly not the absolute maximum of her power.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Even with that regard, the question of canonicity is still there. It contradictions the assumptio indeed but at the same time, hell and heaven are in a way outerworlds isn't it? https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Saikou_The_Lewd_King/Touhou_Explanatio for ref.

Now add in the fact that Maribel's entire series is about the lore of Gensokyo and it's not really something to be disregarded, it kinda stacks up well and that zun's wording of "Otherworlds couldn't be smaller than Earth" would contradict the line "Hell is pretty damn big" which is already an otherworld. I think what Zun might be referring to however are the outer realms that Hecatia has.


And on another part on the interview... The interviewer asks that "If it's really extremely big."

But when Zun is asked to compare it to Earth, he basically says "It's not that big in comparison."

He doesn't specify if it's smaller but just says it's easier to make. He only specified that it wasn't that BIG in comparison, meaning it could be equal in size for all we know. So with that any contradiction would be cleared up, and would flow better that way.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

ZUN's statement isn't being used to say Hell is small. I'm saying it's direct statement that other worlds aren't that big compared to Earth. Something much larger than Jupiter would be significantly bigger than the Earth. A realm that contained a planet, a moon, and all the space between them would be much larger than Earth. This should say that the realms' sizes are not as simple as "It looks like it has a moon, so it's at least large planet sized", when ZUN clarifies this is not the case.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

If you look at it flat on it looks like it has no relevance to hell at all. However they are discussing hell the entire time beforehand. In fact if they're discussing the two otherworlds so I really see no reason why they are not connected.

What he clarifies could also be interpreted as the scope of the infinite worlds, which by the way would be quite a buff to Hecatia.

Are you claiming it's not Large Planet? Because I'm just claiming they're at least Planetary as a minimum, likely higher. Besides he could just be referring to the planet itself. Will debate someo ther time, really feelign sleepy and I won't be able to debate at all half asleep

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I never said it referenced hell? I'm saying other realms, such as Senkai, are stated by Zun to not very big compared to Earth. Depending on how you want to interpret the wording, that can mean either smaller, slightly bigger, or both, but the point is Zun is essentially saying they're not that much bigger than Earth at best, meaning they shouldn't be used to support Large Planet level.

The Hell/Heaven argument was only that Suika didn't need to bust all of Heaven, didn't appear to bust all of Heaven, and herself phrases it as if she didn't bust all of Heaven. I also said Suika busting a portion of the Heavens large enough to reflect the moon was very casual, and should easily be something like "At least High 6-A" instead of just High 6-A.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I already told that it's directly contradicted by both the statement regarding Hell, another one regarding Paradise (Not to be confused with Heaven) and the fact that the Dream World contains at the very least a full version of the moon, with a LOT of place to spare, and visibly a fake Earth too. Assuming that all the Otherworlds are smaller than Earth

Nothing says that Suika only destroyed part of it. This is just an assumption that was used to "support" 5-C Suika in the days. She outright says to have destroyed/ripped apart/whatever the Heavens.

"So since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, all you gotta do is tear the heavens apart!"

Aya wouldn't think of it as that impressive if she just destroyed a part of the Heavens, and she herself re-state that the Heavens were ripped apart. The assumption that the whole sky would explode isn't really correct either, as only the Moon is reflected that way. I'm not sure how she could destroy just the part that reflected the moon without destroying the part outsidse of the moon even then.

Suika herself compares it to breaking the glass that reflects something, not just smashing the part of it that reflects it. Otherwise, the breaking effect would only be noticable from one angle.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Again, it's not contradicted, though. When asked about realms such as Senkai, ZUN says they aren't that big compared to Earth. This is direct statement of size for realms of otherwise unverified size. We cannot then assume they are large planet level. Didn't we even have a thread a while ago about how we can't assume something's size, like this?

Suika herself does not say she destroys all of Heaven. Ripping it apart does not mean the entire thing was destroyed. The feat itself contradicts the idea that she shattered all of the Heavens, unless the Heavens themselves are only large enough to reflect the moon, in which case it would not make sense to scale them to Hell. The feat is very explicitly stated to have appeared as if the moon exploded, not as if the entire sky shattered.

Why would Aya be a reliable source on if Suika had destroyed all of the Heavens? Like, at all? Aya didn't even know what had happened until Suika explained it. Assuming only the moon is reflected that way also assumes stars aren't a thing, since the Heaven's were supposed to be a reflective surface, unless we're assuming they only reflect the moon and the stars just shine through, for some reason, which of course isn't how reflective surfaces work.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

The thing is that the Otherworlds includes literally every realms that isn't Eartg or the Moon. Not just Senkai. While Hell has a states size and the Dream World more or less contains a genuine and functional (As in people live on them) Copy of the Earth Moon system. Obviously, those two aren't smaller in scope than good ol Earth

The Moon is the only thing that has been constantly hidden and just a reflection. The stars and such are still normal. Even then, the impact of Suika's attack was beyond the scope of the Moon, yet no changes on the sky was noted, making your point kinda moot.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

This debate is becoming hey it's not a contradiction, hey it is, hey it's not, hey it is! Are we also gonna ignore how some spellcards easily affects the moon when they're using it? No one really commented on those. No idea where that thread was previously but once again I point that it doesn't mean it's that particularly large in the interview. It could be referring to the planet and not including the moon with them. Zun may just be referring the scope of the actual planet and didn't include the moons.

And then replace contradictions with heaven here. And from the looks of it its specificslly explsined and further added with Suikas dialogue. Why are you being so adamant about that? Even barring that we can still chabge all the otherworlds onto pplanetsry level by scaling from even your arguments so at best thats a minimum.

Onis never lie for one thing and she just explained it to Aya. Aya doesn't really make exaggerations on things she's told about unless it'll grant her more views.

Just woke up so if sny of my messages are flaky blame sleep.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

If only the moon seemed to be destroyed, then Suika's attack didn't stretch beyond the reflection of the moon, again suggesting she only busted a portion of the Heavens. If only the moon is relfected, that again suggests the Heavens to be smaller than you are making them out to be, which makes scaling them to this vague information about Hell incredibly iffy.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

This debate is becoming hey it's not a contradiction, hey it is, hey it's not, hey it is! Are we also gonna ignore how some spellcards easily affects the moon when they're using it? No one really commented on those. No idea where that thread was previously but once again I point that it doesn't mean it's that particularly large in the interview. It could be referring to the planet and not including the moon with them. Zun may just be referring the scope of the actual planet and didn't include the moons.

Also that's going with the assumption that Suika didn't break the heavens in one shot like she proclaims she did...

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Also that's going with the assumption that Suika didn't break the heavens in one shot like she proclaims she did...

Suika never said anything like that. She just said she ripped the Heavens apart, which does not mean she destroyed the entire thing in one-shot. Aya is the one who basically went "OMGZZZZ SUIKA 2 STRONK!!1". As I said before, since the Multi-Continent feat was incredibly casual, Suika should still be higher, regardless.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Yes so at best wouldn't she split it in two at least considering how ripping apart something typically means splitting it into two? If it was only a portion of Heaven it should be Ripped apart part of heaven.

Well in your case the bare minimum could be at least moon or planet (NOT LARGE PLANET) considering the casualness of some character's spellcards although then again Planetary looks more consistent than ever with Touhou characters. But I'm still vying for Large Planet with the scale of some characters especially wiht Star Level Okuu just lying on the corner.

 

[Andykhang]

Uh...late for the talk here, but isn't all of the background just that: A background?

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Oh yes Andy. It sure is. You're implying we should completely disregard it despite the overall consistency of these grand feats right? While we're at it why don't we disregard every gameplay mechanic related calc shall we? A background is to showcase what happens on the side or around you. Of course if it contradicts a feat or lore it's arguable on which holds canonicity or not. But considering it's not contradicting that their goals were to "Go to the Moon in this dream world thing" it's not really something to just ignore.

 

[Andykhang]

Though Eirin's one where we see the train line of the outside world is a contradition. Since Yukari didn't complain about it (as I remember), it's more likely than not that image is an illusion, just like pretty much the rest of the background.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Is that why they're talking about hiding the full moon and have a spellcard called Galaxy in a pot? I remember someone arguing for a case on it but I can't right now. IN has the key for it I'm sure and I'll try to find it, regardless it's silly to think it's just background when there's character comments about it.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Bump...

Also apparently in an ending in LoLK in Marisa's, Yukari wasn't even worried about Gensokyo ending.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yes, and in her Imperishable Night profile, it's stated that she could easily destroy everyone in Gensokyo.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Yup, and the other profile data, and the Akyuu's notes... She's basically made out to be really powerful compared to others but typically it's more reliable to rely on reliable data to rely on- (I'll stop)

But basically, this scene backing those feats up makes them even better and more notable.