Touhou Striking Strength Revision

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I've come to notice that the striking strength of the Touhou characters is messy at best.

Suika is Class TJ for no reasons despite being easily High 6-A, a lot of characters have "unknown" striking strength, some are Class KJ out of all things etc.

Now something to note about is that Average Humans can easily stomp fairies. Cirno doesn't seem to be exactly excluded, as she is only seen as dangerous due to her ice abilities.

So EVERYONE in the verse should get at the very least Class EJ as a baseline for their Striking Strength. Yes even Patchouli. She is below the average human, but below the average TOUHOU human. Her SS should be "At most Class EJ" most likely.

Now, some characters have higher than 6-C AP but their striking strength is lower. This seems to come from the assumption that everyone uses long-rang projectiles normally. However, as shown in the Fighting games, a lot of characters clearly uses a lot of physical attacks in their fighting style. Even if it's not serious battle, it should at least represent how they would fight in a real situation. Even then, for example Suwako has her Low 6-B from her casual attacks in the fighting games, the same she uses physical attacks in.

As another note, both Marisa and Reimu have Class ZJ SS, but their Durability doesn't match up. So their durability should be upgraded to "Small Country" period, no need for barriers.

So my proposed change:

Everyone 6-C has their SS changed to match their AP (Except Patchouli, who should have "At most EJ".

Everyone with Low 6-B AP would have their SS changed to Class ZJ (Except Patchouli)

Suika, Utsuho and Yukari would most likely get changed to Class NJ

Note that I'm willling to accept some characters having lower SS than their AP if you think anyone should have it, but the idea that everyone has their AP through Magic/Projectiles alone is baseless, as Danmaku is simply play. Not all Youkai would use their projectiles in normal time, they just need to for Danmaku fights.

In my opinion, we need proofs that they aren't as physically capable in close combat than they are in projectiles fight, not assume that they need Magic to be strong.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Hmm.

Well Patchouli definitely strikes me as someone whose not physically strong in terms of close combat (being more of a magic casting fighter and all). Still i don't mind if she gets "At most Class EJ SS" for the reason made above.

I can see Marisa and Reimu have Small Country level dura straight up if they can take hits from those of their level.

But all the others i'm more or less unsure of. Then again, i do wonder why they are all rated like that in a way tho?

Would like to hear more thoughts of people who are in-depth of the series here at least.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well she is sub-human in-verse, but the concept of Below Human is different in the Touhou verse. Makes little sense for her to be trillions of times weaker than fodder.

Well unless someone is specifically a mage like Patchy, I don't think their Magic and Physical power should be that much apart.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

That is true on that.

 

[Fllflourine]

Yes, for people like Suika just TJ striking strength is ridicolous.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Suika doesn't have Class TJ on her profile tho? It says Class EJ to me...

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I must have misread then.

But still, people like Okuu having Class KJ SS doesn't make any more sense.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I don't get that tho: Are humans in Touhou much stronger than normal humans in our world or what is it? And yeah, Okuu should have it bumped up higher than that if anything....

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

So does Suika. She shouldn't be thousands of times weaker than Yuugi.

And yeah humans seems pretty strong. Just look at totally normal Maribel .

 

[Promestein]

Seems fine to me.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

And her dura is listed as "Unknow, likely Island level".....eh~

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it is probably best to wait until DontTalk can clear up this matter.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

@Antvasima: I know. Which is why i messaged him earlier to see if he can give his thought on this at the least. I even messaged Promestein as well given that she knows the series very well like Saikou and such...

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Andykhang]

Well, these thing made just as much sense as Relativistic Touhou anyway.

But well, Marisa and Reimu would be physically normal human without their haxx, and I have a hard time imagine Marisa tanking her own Master Spark without some kind of magic (she even dodge it during her fight on the moon in SSIB). So some of them made sense, since most of Touhou human is just as strong as modern human.

Having Suika be a 1000 time weaker than Yuugi though, that doesn't made much sense.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Mokou is Low 6-B physically despite being just an immortal human with magic. It wouldn't be much outlandish for them to be Low 6-B physically/in dura either. Especially as Reimu's only legit lethal attack was physical, and both are also pretty physical in their fighting styles.

Beside, Reimu had 7-B durability when we still thought that normal humans were 10-B to 9-B. So she was assumed to be superhuman even back then.

 

[Andykhang]

^With barrier or physically? Because Marisa would nearly be the same of Reimu, and yet she does get injured once outside of spell card battle by accident.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Reimu used to be 7-B physically (When humans were rated lower). Beside as I said, several humans are already "superhuman".

Even if Marisa was injured, that's just inconsistency. The amount of superhumans getting harmed by regular things is just too common.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Seems legit. And agreeing with above

 

[Andykhang]

Reimu used to be 7-B physically (When humans were rated lower). Beside as I said, several humans are already "superhuman".

Even if Marisa was injured, that's just inconsistency. The amount of superhumans getting harmed by regular things is just too common.

Not really if you also considered Spell Card Battle. In it, whenever they fainted, there would be a barrier that protect them right? I think that's what kept the participant from getting too injured.

So you could said the system itself is 6-B in durability.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You're getting way too speculative here. It's just a rule, nothing about a spell protecting participants. Beside, it was stated that accidents do happen, so it's unlikely to be a shield.

 

[Andykhang]

Doesn't change that the phenomenon itself happen, even when you faced the force of THAT GOD DAMN BEAM from SWR (sorry). It's not totally out of something Yukari wouldn't do either, since she help it conception.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It doesn't tough? Their clothes are damaged by the way, so they aren't outright immune, and a lot of them are hurt somewhat, although that could just be gameplay mechanic. In what situation do you have solids proof that the characters are protected?

 

[Andykhang]

^It's more like a personal experience when playing against Tenshi for the first time...(war flashback) I remember it, clearly scraping into my brain the horror I faced. The final phase... I have tried to dodge it, but it got me...It doesn't end, no matter how many time I get up,oh god it doesn't end...(sobbing intensively)

Sorry, it's still hard to recall. If you watched any Touhou fighting game in youtube, you could notice that easily.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Okay....Andy, what's your overall view on this at least?

You think this is reasonable enough? For the most part i mean?

Aside that, it seems that we need to wait for DT for a while and if he says alright to this, then we can do some changes on for the verse...

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It wasn't as bad for me than Iku's Dragon Eyes thingy. Just constantly bouncing off the attack and getting sniped again as I get up.

But you can't use this as a serious argument. That's common gameplay mechanic and could be easily attributed to the fact that those attacks aren't meant to be lethal.

 

[Andykhang]

^That goddamn beam isn't lethal? And you know saying that mean you admit that they didn't fight as their full strength, and thus the durability cannot be counted for right?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

No it isn't. Bound by the Spell Card rules = Not meant to be lethal no matter what. That's how it works. (Only exception is immortal beings like Mokou or fairies)

The thing is that 6-B comes from a "held back" attacks from Suwako. And their fighting style means that when fighting at full power they would use melee attacks as well.

 

[Andykhang]

^Yeah, and yet it's not lethal. You can't just make those country-destroying move over and over without destroying gensokyo many times over. Truly this is the mystery of Gensokyo.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

There is this magnificent thing called "Area of Effect" in VS Debating which prevent Fictiom from blowing up everything upon impact.

I frankly don't know what you are debating about right now.

 

[Andykhang]

^Frankly, me either

It's just that there's proof that, yeah, normal Touhou girl could get injured to the point of bleeding, but at the same time they tanked blow that could have destroy a country over. If that's not Touhou logic, I don't know what else.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Or just VS Debating logic. We have perfectly regular humans taking Country stuff in PMMM so humans being 6-B here isn't that outlandish.

 

[Andykhang]

^What normal human? Isn't they're all magical girl to do that?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well apparently normal humans all survived Japan blowing up so...

Either way this is getting off-topic. Do you have any legit proof against the new SS or not?

 

[Andykhang]

http://www.*********.co/manga/touhou_ibarakasen_wild_and_horned_hermit/c011/4.html

http://www.*********.co/manga/touhou_ibarakasen_wild_and_horned_hermit/c011/5.html

In here, Marisa get injured while walking in the mountain by a tiger attacking her.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Ah yes human level Marisa now? It's already ridiculous to assume that Marisa has barely equal dura to Cirno, assuming she is so many times lower is just not something that can happen.

 

[Andykhang]

^Isn't Cirno dura is because of her Regenerationn? And who know, maybe that tiger could be Island level of attack, it being Kasen pet and all.

And Marisa have been mentioned many time that she's just an ordinary magician. Perhap with magic she could do that, but without it, she only better than the normal human in the village.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Cirno is Island level through SS, which scales to Dura.

You should have told me this then. It's most likely above normal tigers if it's Kasen's pet.

And yet she has stated that she is the 2nd strongest in Gensoyko. Don't take what she says for granted.

Beside we already have a normal human at 6-B so quit thinking every humans are physically 6-C.

 

[Andykhang]

^But I never thought that the human would have enough strength to crush island.That's a big inflation of strength.

And don't forget that what she said is only self-proclaim, and all of her feat are in non-lethal Spell Card battle. In real fight she would have been crushed by even Youmu.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

DC =/= AP. How did you not know this yet..?

So is the "Normal Magician" thing.

Legit half of what you said is already accepted. I'm starting to get a bit tired of this.