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Anyway I really don't see how Makina is beating Knives's let alone Anos.
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Top 10 Strongest Non-Smurfs for every tier continued
- Thread starter Setsuna_tenma
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On her profile for how authority works, time and fate.
which is irrelevant for Eden's enhanced type 1 acau 4, and the point here is that the fate/causal manipulation is based on conceptual laws, which would always win against the same type of hax that isn't equal in nature
It means he'd be ''paralyzed'' and incapped
You're not going to put all the clones down
She already had an infinite 6Ds army, it is whether your power null can disable endless reconstructing or not
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Because the guy only has baseline 6D for some hax, idk if Anos stomps knives due to massive difference in the abstract level of hax but he ain't passing Makina that is for sure
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Shouldn't Alakazam be removed from High 7-A given the fact the vast majority of Pokemon characters are going through massive revisions right now, which would of course include Alakazam himself?
If he is then I nominate Edo Itachi because of his Low-Godly and eyesight-based layered Mind Manipulation via Genjutsu.
If he is then I nominate Edo Itachi because of his Low-Godly and eyesight-based layered Mind Manipulation via Genjutsu.
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So her conceptual manipulation is only applicable to time, and they can't destroy concepts of things they haven't been shown to according to the profile.
Type 1 Acausality is irrelevant here so I don't even see the point in bringing it up aside from a failed attempt to brag. Her enhanced Type 4 gets nagged by layered causality Manipulation that's much more versatile than her own causality Manipulation. Also there's no such thing as "concept causality." since it's already a concept to begin with, there isn't such thin as "conceptual concepts."
Try again.
He can regenerate from that and his body already counters Paralysis as a Plant.
Much like how she isn't putting Knives's down. He doesn't need to put the clones down, he just needs to find her and kill her which is something he can do.
An infinite army of 6-D characters would still be 6-D and he can nullify 6-D abilities, higher if you take his RE into consideration.
Hard disagree here. Makina ain't getting past Knives's, that's for sure. She gets blitzed to hell and back and has no counters to a guy's who's Infinitely faster. Battle starts and Knives's perceives her movements as if time is stopped and proceeds to nuke her before she has the chance to do shit.
She can't counter Mid-Godly, Type 3 Acausality and has no answer to immortality and regeneration Negation.
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The fact that her profile is really trying to imply that her army are omnipotent is proof enough how poorly these profiles were made. 
Omnipotent my ass, literally never seen anything like that in a profile before.
Omnipotent my ass, literally never seen anything like that in a profile before.
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Omnipotent is literally in quotation marks, nobody takes it seriously.
Lets go over your arguments.
-A God's power is by nature conceptual, this is why despite there being many ways to manipulate time for example, a God's authority which does the same will always be superior, and a regular time stop resistance can't resist it.
The "concept causality" or whatever is what i explained above, God's authority>causality manipulation, because it's conceptual.
If he can't resist concept manipulation, he can't resist Makian's incap, and if so this is gonna boil down to an argument about who has more layers
How would he know about a True Form of Makina? And how would he get there, not even someone on Makina's level could.
Knives could nullify 6-D abiltiies but i think the argument is that there is a literal infinite amount of them that get infinitely recreated so he would get overwhelmed unless he has feats of dealing with that many people on his level at the same time.
This is a speed argument, which is valid in a non speed equalized match sure.
She could incap which comes back to a layers argument, if he has no concept resistance to begin with, then that's not even necessary to argue, RE would also probably be an NLF, and Makina has her own RE, which if we are arguing layers, she faced someone with the same ability for hundreds of millions of years.
If Knives is just 6-D, and Makina is far into it, and has RE, it's gonna be an NLF to say he can just RE to her stuff.
Lets go over your arguments.
-A God's power is by nature conceptual, this is why despite there being many ways to manipulate time for example, a God's authority which does the same will always be superior, and a regular time stop resistance can't resist it.
The "concept causality" or whatever is what i explained above, God's authority>causality manipulation, because it's conceptual.
If he can't resist concept manipulation, he can't resist Makian's incap, and if so this is gonna boil down to an argument about who has more layers
How would he know about a True Form of Makina? And how would he get there, not even someone on Makina's level could.
Knives could nullify 6-D abiltiies but i think the argument is that there is a literal infinite amount of them that get infinitely recreated so he would get overwhelmed unless he has feats of dealing with that many people on his level at the same time.
This is a speed argument, which is valid in a non speed equalized match sure.
She could incap which comes back to a layers argument, if he has no concept resistance to begin with, then that's not even necessary to argue, RE would also probably be an NLF, and Makina has her own RE, which if we are arguing layers, she faced someone with the same ability for hundreds of millions of years.
If Knives is just 6-D, and Makina is far into it, and has RE, it's gonna be an NLF to say he can just RE to her stuff.
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I heavily doubt you even skim through her profile at this point. There is authority for every ultimate god existed, the authority is the power to control the concept itself.
She DOES directly destroy concepts by merely clashing, which is there on her profile too, surprised?
I'm not bragging anything, she doesn't even have type 1, was my mistake so whatever.
You can't neg layered type 4 by layered causality hax lol.
The verse literally treats like that (see law and concept manipulations)
Self-explanatory:
Causality manipulation can be used by people like Alice, however if Alice and Fate tried to manipulate causality at the same time, Fate will always win, because authorities are the very rules themselves, it's irrelevant even if Alice is far stronger than Fate
Regenerating from a time stop that is more abstract than everything in your verse is officially the most ridiculous thing I've seen today. I said ''paralyse'' because I gave the explanation of its real mechanic beforehand already. Now I can say you are the one bragging
Any move using authority will, cuz, conceptual type 1, which is far beyond the dude whole arsenal
Okay, still takes an infinite amount of time to kill them. Anything higher than 6D would just be smurf, or I can say the same thing for Makina.
Hope you can stop bringing up speed here cause it is equal by default, you would at best share a spot if win via speed unequal.
And you know what? I'm talking about Anos not Knives lmao. I have respect for the opponent so I don't jump to any conclusions before finish debating, hope that's clear
Lmao. Even if this was a joke, it would still really piss us supporters (and especially Pegasus who dedicatedly made them all) off.The fact that her profile is really trying to imply that her army are omnipotent is proof enough how poorly these profiles were made.
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Which doesn't mean they're capable of destroying said concept without it being directly stated. Manipulation =/= destruction, you provided examples of them Manipulating concepts, not destroying them.
Then that's still not "conceptual causality." that's just the verses system of causality being inferior to their conceptual manipulation. So again, your argument doesn't mean much.
Which doesn't matter since conceptual destruction isn't a thing on her profile so once again you can stop using this argument or perhaps make a CRT to get that added.
Boundless Knowledge along with absorbing information from the clones themselves.
I never said he'd be able to null the creation of the clones, so this argument is irrelevant. I said the army wouldn't prove much of an issue to him due to his immortality and regeneration along with having passives to actually deal with them. His power nullification is more so to negate her other abilities and such.
I don't see speed equalized anywhere in the OP.
It doesn't matter if he can't resist it since he has counter measures in the form of his causality Manipulation, power nullification which works on abstract hax or simply regenerates unless she can bypass Mid-Godly and immortality and according to her profile she can't.
It's really not an NLF since Vash's Gate took him from 3-D to 6-D instantly. Plant growth is infinite in nature, as a Independent Plant Knives's scales above that.
Literally nothing here proves conceptual destruction.
Yes you can, bruh what are you talking about? You absolutely can, that's just you making shit up.
Time-stop doesn't negate regeneration, what the actual **** are you even on about? Time stop has never been a means to counter regeneration. And no, you never elaborated on the "paralyzed" thing. All you said was she can paralyze him without further context. Now I can say you are the one making up shit.
They don't have destruction of concepts according to the profile. They're stated to manipulate concepts, which would make their abilities conceptual for the concepts they've been shown to manipulate. Not just sheer conceptual destruction like the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception from the Nasuverse.
And he wouldn't need to kill them for an infinite amount of time. He isn't stupid he'd eventually find a way to find her true body.
If your talking about Anos then why are you even replying to my Knives's argument...? Also speed isn't equalized by default as far as I'm aware.
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Why are we getting hung up on destroying concepts? This is fairly simply a God's authority are the rules themselves, they control the very concepts, so even if a character A is above character B in verse, character A would still lose to an authority, if Vash can't resist concept manipulation, he can't resist anything Makina does.
Your also missing the point with the clones, Vash can regenerate, hax them etc, but there are literally an infinite amount he will get overwhelmed.
And it's a blatant NLF to assume Vash will instantly get stronger than an opponent far above him in 6-D, just cause he did so to levels below that. We can also play that game, as i already explained, Alice ability gives her infinite evolution that lets her become a version of herself that can beat her opponent, this is in all areas, strength, speed, hax etc.
Makina has the same ability, and has already used this against an opponent with the same thing in a stalemate that lasted hundreds of millions of years, i am not seeing how Vash is getting above her
Your also missing the point with the clones, Vash can regenerate, hax them etc, but there are literally an infinite amount he will get overwhelmed.
And it's a blatant NLF to assume Vash will instantly get stronger than an opponent far above him in 6-D, just cause he did so to levels below that. We can also play that game, as i already explained, Alice ability gives her infinite evolution that lets her become a version of herself that can beat her opponent, this is in all areas, strength, speed, hax etc.
Makina has the same ability, and has already used this against an opponent with the same thing in a stalemate that lasted hundreds of millions of years, i am not seeing how Vash is getting above her
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This argument ends whenever you mistook Vash for Knives's. he isn't getting his regeneration overwhelmed by an infinite number, especially whenever he has type 3 immortality to use and evolves abilities to counter the opponent as time goes on.
His RE isn't really an NLF, he'll get stronger as time goes regardless of what you think is an NLF. You can only apply NLF to the argument if I said some shit like "He becomes 7-D." via RE. No, he'll simply become stronger than the opponent and the difference between his RE and her's is that his RE covers infinite gaps while being applied for every second he fights he gets stronger.
he isn't getting his regeneration overwhelmed by an infinite number, especially whenever he has type 3 immortality to use and evolves abilities to counter the opponent as time goes on.His RE isn't really an NLF, he'll get stronger as time goes regardless of what you think is an NLF. You can only apply NLF to the argument if I said some shit like "He becomes 7-D." via RE. No, he'll simply become stronger than the opponent and the difference between his RE and her's is that his RE covers infinite gaps while being applied for every second he fights he gets stronger.
What ability are you talking about? Again this isn't Vash, I'm talking about Knive's. Vash is an anti hax.
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How does regeneration and immortality help against an infinite number of opponents, also show me Vash/Knives whichever you are arguing for evolving to handle anything close to an infinite number of attackers, it's an NLF.
If he hasn't been shown to get stronger than a 6-D person far above his level, you can't use evidence of him doing so for stuff below to argue that he can do the same for stuff above him. He can stronger sure, but to something far above him? I would even grant you that maybe he would eventually get to Makina's level, except for this:
Makina already faced off with another World Creator on her level, where neither side could beat the other for a hundred million years, despite the fact Makina has infinite evolution
The starting point for Vash/Knives and Makina would be far apart, and just because he instantly got to 6-D, wouldn't mean he would instantly get to where Makina is at, and that point will keep getting further away due to Makina's RE,
If he hasn't been shown to get stronger than a 6-D person far above his level, you can't use evidence of him doing so for stuff below to argue that he can do the same for stuff above him. He can stronger sure, but to something far above him? I would even grant you that maybe he would eventually get to Makina's level, except for this:
Makina already faced off with another World Creator on her level, where neither side could beat the other for a hundred million years, despite the fact Makina has infinite evolution
The starting point for Vash/Knives and Makina would be far apart, and just because he instantly got to 6-D, wouldn't mean he would instantly get to where Makina is at, and that point will keep getting further away due to Makina's RE,
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Said clones are incapable of actually killing him due to his levels of Regeneration, immortality and type 3 Acausality.
The RE thing is mainly to cover the stats between them, I think your confused about what the actual argument of mine boils down to. The RE is there to make him stronger, but obviously not to the point of one shotting his opponent in this case. His Power Bestowal grants Knives's the unique ability to gain new random powers mid-fight, usually in order to counter the opponent's abilities.
Literally who said anything about RE allowing Knives's to find her? I never said nor insinuated such a thing, what I said was is that he'd be able to locate her location after time given his knowledge and him having dimensional travel.
Plus he can simply absorb one of the clones which would give him their abilities, create counters to their abilities and gets their information upon Absorbtion.
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At worst I'd say it's an eternal win-con, and that's assuming Knives's won't be able to find her.
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The clones don't need to kill him, just keep beating him up, but also considering what we have been saying about authorities, if Knives doesn't resist concept manipulation, then the fight is pretty much over.
If Makina is already far above Knives and he doesn't have evidence of instantly closing the gap, well it's not just Makina's ap that's a problem, as i have said Makina evolves in all areas, so even her hax, ie her concept hax which he doesn't even resist to begin with, is also many many layers into 6-D
Anyway i can imagine other posters have gotten annoyed with this argument, should probably be moved elsewhere, but idk if i want to spend more time arguing it, would rather continue reading VN's.
That said considering the insults Makina' profile has received here, i am actually personally interested in this argument now.
If Makina is already far above Knives and he doesn't have evidence of instantly closing the gap, well it's not just Makina's ap that's a problem, as i have said Makina evolves in all areas, so even her hax, ie her concept hax which he doesn't even resist to begin with, is also many many layers into 6-D
Anyway i can imagine other posters have gotten annoyed with this argument, should probably be moved elsewhere, but idk if i want to spend more time arguing it, would rather continue reading VN's.
That said considering the insults Makina' profile has received here, i am actually personally interested in this argument now.
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Not really interesed in the debate since I don't read Isekai at Peace but just wanted to ask something that I saw:
Have he ever show to absorb things like law manipulation or conceptual manipulation Type 1? In general his powers (like power nullification) have show to work against such a things?
Since the quote mentioned how she had the same power of Alice of grow infinitely, wouldn't that make her infinite growth conceptual in nature? Or Alice Ἑκατόγχειρες Ultimate Battle Form isn't a god authority/law&conceptual power?
I mean, his regeneration and immortality don't cover things of conceptual level so she can as a matter of fact put him down permanently
Have he ever show to absorb things like law manipulation or conceptual manipulation Type 1? In general his powers (like power nullification) have show to work against such a things?
Noneless21
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^this
can Knives even absorb and take conceptual *****? if he can't then absorbing one of the Abyss Tartaruses (Who are 6D) brings absolutely nothing to Knives' table
also, Makina will use her nigh omniscient to figure out her way to win
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Ultimate Battle Form is a heart tool power, its the ultimate form of a power from another world, however even in Alice world authorities were a thing, The Great Evil God of Despair was a god with an authority, though i forgot if the latter was a LN only thing.
Alice's Ultimate Battle Form (UBF) has let her resist the God's authorities like Chronois who had Shiro's direct authority, which is 5-D, and she used UBF to be able to grow to handle Kuro's power, which is conceptual by nature, so yea UBF is conceptual.
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Ok, supposed so but wanted to confirm just in case.
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And yet her conceptual abilities won't be able to kill him, her profile doesn't imply she's capable of outright conceptual destruction.
She isn't far above Knives's in AP, and AP is pretty useless thing here. That's also great because that's also applicable to Plant's, they don't just stronger but the abilities are also ever evolving.
Look at her intelligence section broski.
Nigh-Omniscient (Eden is stated to be omniscient, however, she can only know what she is trying to know, she can't know something if she doesn't try knowing about it)
Aside from some spelling errors her profile is seriously littered with hyperbolic flowerly language.
She doesn't destroy concepts so she can't permanently put him down but I suppose she can incapacitate him with it depending on the mechanics.
Shouldn't be outside the realm of possibility since he gains abstract hax, and can nullify abstraction like causality Manipulation which in nature is abstract by default.
Also pretty sure Causality itself is already conceptual and Plants have no issue interacting with things of that nature.
Noneless21
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Just make a match already!
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Anyway I'll be heading to bed soon.
Also the fact that Plant's literally effect everything in the multiverse within their range passively.
That's for her verse, different verses obviously aren't going to follow the same system. Causality itself is already conceptual in nature, it's an abstraction which Plants interact with on a daily basis.
Also the fact that Plant's literally effect everything in the multiverse within their range passively.
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I ain't staying up all night to debate fictional characters instead of you know... sleeping since I have work the next morning.
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This thread has concluded, Knives's and Eden will share the same spot in her placement with Eden having the edge in the form of icap via speed equalization while Knives's takes the W via an infinite speed blitz without speed being equalized.
So 3rd spot needs to be adjusted with Eden (speed equalized.) / Knives's Millions (Speed unequalized.)
So 3rd spot needs to be adjusted with Eden (speed equalized.) / Knives's Millions (Speed unequalized.)
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Knives is able to defeat the lower spots? Because otherwise he wouldn't really get third place (ask because I don't knoe if he can put down Anos with all his conceptual things and transduality, beside his other haxs).
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^^^
I believe this as well as I think Anos beats Knives's due to his higher speed and being able to beat Knives's under both circumstances in a speed equalized and without speed equalized matches.
Knives's has more layers to his hax and such but Anos has the answer to Knives's regeneration and immortality amongst blitzing either way. Conceptual destruction and negation of High Godly regeneration topped with Immeasurable hard counters Knives's at the moment till I get some things translated.
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Knive's can't negate High-Godly regeneration, I don't know the full extent of what Anos is scaling to in terms of dimensionality of his hax and resistances are.
If he's only capable of the 5-D end of Low 1-C then I'm not sure how his abilities would interact with someone who's infinitely higher than him in dimensionality. If his shit scale to the 6-D end like how Knives's does then he'd stomp Knives.
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azontr
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Yeah, but the profile doesn't mention what type.
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His resistences are 5-D and he has a few baseline 6-D hax (stuff like Void Manipulation, Law/Logic Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation)
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It mentions Dao of Mirage as type 1 but it is also called 5D world. I believe Xue Ying is only 6D in his last key or something similar so resistance is probably 5D.
azontr
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You should prolly ask @Zaratthustra
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Yeah then I'm still not sure how that would really play out against Eden or Knives's since they have overall 6-D hax and resistances but both have Mid-Godly in comparison to Anos having high Godly regeneration and negation.
I can't speak for Eden but at least in Trigun Plant regeneration is directly tied to the dimensionality of one's Gate. So I'm not sure how a 5-D High Godly regeneration would work against a 6-D, Mid-Godly, possibly far higher that is entirely dependent on dimensionality.
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From what I've read of his profile, his 6D is a stage of cultivation that others can and have reached. Which means he likely has others his hax and resistances scale to, and if I'm not wrong, he has a Type 9 that even other 6D characters woukd struggle to reach.
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