Toji aca 4 possible drop

[Rolgoat]

Bro just put all of your replies in one message; if you don't, it clogs up the thread.

I understand, I didn't know that, thank you

 

[Arkenis]

"You need to provide evidence for the absoluteness of shared fate. It could be a known norm simply because it has been happening for centuries, or it might be a conventional expectation. People might now perceive it as 'fate.' To establish that this 'fate' is absolute and that there is something in the verse's fate beyond Tengen's perception, you must demonstrate that Toji rejected it.

Yeah it could be a norm, or it might be conventional expectation but that isn't evident and is just unknown so no those aren't the case until shown otherwise and should not be used to discredit it.

And also just reading how detailed and how it's repeated that what's going on is a fate, that this is destiny, is enough.

 

[Rolgoat]

The reason I want proof is that aca 4 lacks context and normally no scale will be taken from there, this can only be interpreted as fate manipulation resistance or a metaphor.

 

[ImmortalDread]

It is not really a metaphor, since it has been proven that those determined events are repeating and that's why kenjaku chose sealing over killing, since he is aware he can't do it. But I agree with fate manipulation resistance.

 

[Rolgoat]

Yes true i didn't know that

 

[Duedate8898]

It is not really a metaphor, since it has been proven that those determined events are repeating and that's why kenjaku chose sealing over killing, since he is aware he can't do it. But I agree with fate manipulation resistance.

I mean, the resistance is inherit to Acausality Type 4.

I will attempt to concisely summarize my position. I'm not in agreement, as I believe, outside of the JJK context, this nature/ability is pointless.

I assume that we hold distinct interpretations of the term "causality systems." It appears that you associate fate with causality, asserting that everyone is inevitably bound to follow their destinies, with Toji being the exception due to his abnormality. While I don't necessarily oppose this perspective, my objection lies in the act of equating a subset attribute with a set attribute. Allow me to elaborate on this point.

The Fate system encompasses a causality system. However, when assessing whether the character in question operates explicitly on a different system than the regular one (bearing in mind the comparison between our everyday causality system and the unique one presented on the page), it becomes apparent that he is still functioning within the regular system. This is an undeniable fact, as evidenced by his movement from point A to point B, which indicates that he remains bound by the same regular causality system as everyone else. Causality, in this context, refers to the influence by which one event, process, state, or object (a cause) contributes to the production of another event, process, state, or object (an effect). The cause is partially responsible for the effect, and the effect is partly dependent on the cause. This law applies to everyone since it is a traditional causality.

Your point highlights that the character is not constrained by the general flow of cursed energy; he is abnormal, a fact with which I agree. However, I disagree with equating this abnormality to the causality system, as cursed energy is specifically related to EUS. Given his abnormality, the conventional destinies should not significantly impact him.

While this debate may involve some semantics, it is crucial to address, since our ultimate conclusions regarding whether he attains acasuality type 4 depend on this aspect.

And to respond fully to your original response post, you're either proposing that everyone with cursed energy has Type 4 Accausality or only those without it has Type 4 Accausality. Because the reasons we're given for Toji being able to change the fates of Tengen, Rika, and Gojo is because he does not follow the fate that comes with cursed energy. Cursed Energy is a fact of the reality of JJK, all humans are supposed to have cursed energy in some form or shape. Cursed Energy is what binds humanity to curses in the first place, it is a system which governs their lives and as outlined by Tengen even shapes their destinies. Yet Toji, who has known, can change these predetermined things. Sure whatever system of causality he's on generally lets him operate as a normal person with a few new perks, but that doesn't mean he's not under a separate system. That instead means that the system toji exist under shares some rules with the system the rest of the verse follows. That fact that Tengen said everything started to fall into place for Kenjaku as a direct result of Toji, I would believe is one of the best examples we could ask for for someone to qualify for Type 4 Accausality.

No matter what, Toji is not operating on the same system of causality as these characters. It is explicty stated that he has broke free from cursed energy which is what ties them all together. I don't see how you can look at the explanation given as to why he's able to change the fates of these characters, and conclude he doesn't qualify for Type 4.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I mean, the resistance is inherit to Acausality Type 4.

Not necessarily; while it's a possibility, it's not a requirement. If I recall correctly, @Bobsican has initiated a discussion suggesting an alternative viewpoint. According to the information on the page, it appears that fate manipulation is among the benefits. I believe that resistance to causality manipulation throughout the page is the primary advantage of acausality type 4.

Speaking in a more serious tone, when pitting Toji against another character, the acausality type 4 seems irrelevant to the match, as technically, he is still bound by the regular type. It's of the essence to understand that this forms the basis of my primary counterargument and showing the difference on our interpretation on this "system".

Even if we were to confront him with someone else of acausal type 4, based on technicalities and mechanics, the significance would be null, as it doesn't conform to a causality system but rather an internal system within the verse.

And to respond fully to your original response post, you're either proposing that everyone with cursed energy has Type 4 Accausality or only those without it has Type 4 Accausality.

I really don't see this way as myself, because cursed energy is not a causality system and never be treated mainly like that.

Because the reasons we're given for Toji being able to change the fates of Tengen, Rika, and Gojo is because he does not follow the fate that comes with cursed energy.

I agree, I don't see why is this not fate manipulation resistance instead.

Cursed Energy is a fact of the reality of JJK, all humans are supposed to have cursed energy in some form or shape. Cursed Energy is what binds humanity to curses in the first place, it is a system which governs their lives and as outlined by Tengen even shapes their destinies.

As far as I am aware, this is not the original explanation or introduction for cursed energy system. It is more EUS than “causality system” that you are trying to declare here. Even if EUS does not work here if we are going to follow with the rules from Vs Battle Definition, it is still an energy universal system.

Yet Toji, who has known, can change these predetermined things. Sure whatever system of causality he's on generally lets him operate as a normal person with a few new perks, but that doesn't mean he's not under a separate system. That instead means that the system toji exist under shares some rules with the system the rest of the verse follows. That fact that Tengen said everything started to fall into place for Kenjaku as a direct result of Toji, I would believe is one of the best examples we could ask for for someone to qualify for Type 4 Accausality.

The link is the same as in OP, no? All, I see is that he is the only person who is abnormal and has 0 cursed energy and is gifted through heavenly restriction, thus he is escaped from this cursed cycle.

He may operate on a different system, in the sense of, he is not bounded by those determined events, but he is still in the same traditional regular causality system like anyone else.

No matter what, Toji is not operating on the same system of causality as these characters. It is explicty stated that he has broke free from cursed energy which is what ties them all together. I don't see how you can look at the explanation given as to why he's able to change the fates of these characters, and conclude he doesn't qualify for Type 4.

I observe variations in our interpretations; while you may label it a "causality system," I do not categorize it as such under the traditional definition of causality emphasized on this page (Acausality). It is more EUS than causality system.

 

[Bobsican]

As I was pinged, please note that I lack the time to dedicate myself to CRTs lately, that's all on my part for now, bye.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Cursed energy blatantly covers causality. Their is a direct causal link in the creation of curses stemming directly from the content of thought creating and rebirthing cursed spirits. Kenjaku also directly states that people, curses, and sorcerers are all expressions of the possibilities of CE, hence his arms race to optimize it. Finally, binding vows blatantly work on a system of causality and are universal in nature as Kenjaku and sukuna have both explained. Binding vows are always symbolized by chains and we see this visual motif in use again with Toji when they discuss him breaking fate.

Not sure if it qualifies for type 4 and waiting for more knowledgeable experts to give their view, but just wanted to clear that up.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Honestly at this point whether it stays as is or changes is only a matter of what we want to take out of Tengen's words. I see things more in line with Duedate's interpretation. These causality and destiny supernatural factors are a part of JJK's world and history due to CE's very influence and Toji is an anomaly, outside of it. Because of that I think Acausality is more accurate than Resistance.

At any rate though, this hardly influences Toji's actual fighting capabilities, as a lot of it are peculiarities specific to the universe of JJK's way of the world. This would impact what we consider to be the more accurate indexing more than it would how well he fares in matches.

 

[Zeinx1]

Disagree fra

 

[HiatusSum]

Not sure if it qualifies for type 4

Based off what you wrote it does not

 

[Rolgoat]

Disagree fra

Reason?

 

[Rolgoat]

Cursed energy blatantly covers causality. Their is a direct causal link in the creation of curses stemming directly from the content of thought creating and rebirthing cursed spirits. Kenjaku also directly states that people, curses, and sorcerers are all expressions of the possibilities of CE, hence his arms race to optimize it. Finally, binding vows blatantly work on a system of causality and are universal in nature as Kenjaku and sukuna have both explained. Binding vows are always symbolized by chains and we see this visual motif in use again with Toji when they discuss him breaking fate.

Not sure if it qualifies for type 4 and waiting for more knowledgeable experts to give their view, but just wanted to clear that up.

There is no evidence of the initial causal link, and the reason you mentioned there is a reason similar to the fact that if you get pregnant, you can give birth to a child. The binding oath was announced in another rebunk.

Honestly at this point whether it stays as is or changes is only a matter of what we want to take out of Tengen's words. I see things more in line with Duedate's interpretation. These causality and destiny supernatural factors are a part of JJK's world and history due to CE's very influence and Toji is an anomaly, outside of it. Because of that I think Acausality is more accurate than Resistance.

At any rate though, this hardly influences Toji's actual fighting capabilities, as a lot of it are peculiarities specific to the universe of JJK's way of the world. This would impact what we consider to be the more accurate indexing more than it would how well he fares in matches.

Binding oaths are also the words of the "why" person, they are not counted in the destiny we are talking about. Being universal means that the validity of binding oaths does not change depending on place and time. Is there no evidence of the causality mentioned at the beginning?

 

[Rutæhh]

agree with OP.

 

[Rolgoat]

Bump

 

[Zeinx1]

Reason?

Dude, fra means to reject because of previous messages.

 

[Rolgoat]

Bump

 

[Rolgoat]

Bump

 

[Animus-sama]

Hm.. ı dont now

 

[Rolgoat]

Bump

 

[Zeinx1]

bump

 

[Rolgoat]

Bump

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

It's based on Tengen and the connection between star vessel, it could even be that Toji is invisibe to him .

Since when CE was the same thing as destiny or fate? From the scan it look like those CE rules don't apply to Toji and that's it.