[Toaru] Alice Anotherbible's Resistances

[Felience1]

Alice doesn't suddenly become immune to something just because it passes the skin barrier. Her physical body barely matters with what she can do, but her body still takes the effects from them they just don't bother her.

I don't even know where this comes from.

She's not 'resisting' a bullet if it shot into her through her skin and is suddenly lodged in her chest- just like she's not immune to bugs just cause they ate through her skin and are now eating her lungs. Her body is still taking the damage and effects. It just literally doesn't bother her cause the body isn't really part of who she is, it's a stand in.

Same as above. The bugs can damage her skins not her internals. What are you talking about in the last part about her not being her body?

Also like she blatantly takes internal damage from physical strikes like touma's punches, so like the idea in general that once it passes the skin it no longer bothers her or she's suddenly resisting it is ?????

What is the blatant internal damage? and getting punched is external damage.

Also curtana doesn't have range attacks with the cuts, if you have curtana you can't cut into academy city from Britain. You cut out with the sword and it has at most a 20 meter range with the dimension slice or whatever it's called attack.

correct 20m is the quote i gave and what a am saying i don't even know why you bring planetary ranges. Is not like the range matters for her resistance.

The quote your using to explain the coordinated cut is saying that if they cut where accelerators barrier starts it will get through. Not 'if I stand 40 feet away I can cut through your barrier by specifically targeting it'

The omnidimensional slice spell has 20 meter range. That spell was being used on him. I don't know what you are trying to say.

 

[Felience1]

That doesn't sound like the perspective of an omniscient narrator.

I am not saying that she is an inmortal tier 0. It says that because of her resistances and abilities making her difficult to be dealt with. Do you want him to say "oh yes that character of GT56 can kill her but only him" or something like that. Or do you want him to name every single thing that could feasible kill her before she takes action? Him not giving you the full information there does not mean he lies as a narrator for no reason in this convenient place and not in any other thing. If the narrator lies in Toaru is to hide someone's death or something like that not because he feels like giving character abilities wrong descriptions.

Well, yeah, it was never used against her. Just like every other abilities you're trying to get her to resist.

Correct that is what i am saying. The only prove that Cold Mistress works is Bologna says so with doubt several times. I will believe that and not add that resistance. Every other ability has a statement saying it should be resisted. So now we should not believe this part but the less clear Cold Mistress yes? We should believe both. That is what the author gave us.

If anything, it supports my point that the narrator is only conveying Touma's thoughts on the situation. Especially since this is has also been directly contradicted by Kamachi. He literally told us that Alice was killed by Othinus, so Cold Mistress is obviously not the only spell that can work on her.

How is her saying that is the only spell that may work on her supporting your point. Throwing Gungnir is not a spell.
And that quote is talking about regular trascendents could have killed othinus but they didn't and they are afraid of Alice. The narration separates Alice from Trascendents by saying that that is the reason they are so afraid of Alice. If Alice was part of that "trascendents" is she afraid of herself? Anyways i am not adding resistance to Gungnir so this is irrelevant and it even says that they can without seal. I think that they does not include Alice because of what is written right after but it doesn't matter if it does.
Since i am not adding that now and it is not a spell.

Crushing someone's head causes brain damage. She did walk around without a head later on, but we're explicitly told that she had to revive herself, and that CRC's attack did kill her.

How does she have brain damage if she can fight normally without head? Sure her head is no longer there but it doesn't affect her. And yes she revives herself because someone killed her with an external attack. She has a weird physiology we don't now if that caused internal damage or not since we don't even know if she has a brain.

Right, and I would imagine that those pages have more justification than just "built different". Because that's all we know about Alice's constitution. Her being remade from magic doesn't tell us anything regarding what makes her internally different.

The justification of direct statements from the author of what her physhiology does. Why do we need to now how it exactly works to add what it does if we know what it does?

The way y'all are arguing makes it sound like all instances of damage simply vanish as soon as it reaches "inside" her.

Maybe, we don't know. I won't argue how it works because we don't know.

The entire point of my post was to show that I don't believe the narrator to be an accurate source of information in this instance.

I believe he is accurate and i don't see a single exception to the rule.

You're arguing that the internal damage caused by an external attack is resisted. The two quote literally contradict this. In the first case, CRC crushed her head (external attack) and Alice suffered brain damage (internal damage) that killed her.

In the second case, she clashed fists with Touma (external attack) which caused some kind of internal damage to make her legs shake.

Is it said that what causes the death is brain damage and i don't remember it?

There are explanations for that. Supernatural physiology, Imagine Breaker. Just emotions of her killing the most important thing to her.

So Fiamma's pain manipulation counts as internal damage, but not Bologna's? That's convenient.

Of course, it is litteraly written as the only spell that has a chance or working. Are you going to take the part of the statement about Cold Mistress not working possibly and forget about the part saying it is an exception? And she could be wrong anyways and the spell does not work.

The statements were contradicted by having Alice directly suffer internal damage and having Cold Mistress be named as a weakness multiple times.

Show me where it is said that Alice recieves internal damage.

Named as a possible weakness. Even if it was a weakness it is just that. The only spell that works because that is a weakness.

 

[Shishii]

See, this is what I mean. You are literally doing your best to dodge around the issue and not address the main thing by trying to obfuscate what's happening.

Her brain was crushed alongside her head. Her brain was thusly damaged and destroyed. She did not resist her brain being destroyed because it was inside of her head.

She is taking the damage and is being affected by this stuff. She's not resisting it. (I mean she even literally dies from this, she can just ressurect herself)

Also punches aren't external alone, especially if they are leaving bruises and shit like they were in the fight against touma.

Her internals and everything still take the damage, she's not resisting it. Her body just doesn't matter for what she is because she can resurrect and doesn't actually seem to require a body for anything other than easy interaction with the world.

Your tying yourself in knots and flailing around for ANY explanation to justify this instead of just actually looking at the text and seeing what's happening.

I mean heck, you are literally arguing that having her head crushed didn't kill her cause it destroyed her brain! I mean come on.

 

[Axscell]

Your tying yourself in knots and flailing around for ANY explanation to justify this instead of just actually looking at the text and seeing what's happening.

I'm curious, what exactly do you think is happening here?

Also, her body was immune to bacteria, bugs, curses, and all other forms of internal damage, both scientific and magical. As for external damage, she would always remain unscathed thanks to the hedgehogs and flamingo protecting her. Moreover, this didn’t come from a fear of shedding blood. She protected herself that way because if anything obstructed her actions, she might get angry and kill someone.

I mean, when the author goes out of his way to explicitly state and explain what is happening, how do you want to interpret it differently? I'm genuinely curious, because it seems to me like trying to justify ignoring the author's explicit explanation and calling it something else would involve a lot more mental gymnastics than what you are suggesting.

 

[Shishii]

I'm curious, what exactly do you think is happening here?



I mean, when the author goes out of his way to explicitly state and explain what is happening, how do you want to interpret it differently? I'm genuinely curious, because it seems to me like trying to justify ignoring the author's explicit explanation and calling it something else would involve a lot more mental gymnastics than what you are suggesting.

I mean this is blatantly contradicted by the later showings. Unless you are arguing she for some reason lacks a brain when she has the sensory organs needed for the brain to interpret things, and she's taking explicit internal damage from things like touma's punches and her general fight that was leaving her bruised and battered which are internal injuries.

My interpretation is that she doesn't actually rely on the body for her ability to live and function so she can have her internals attacked and as long as they aren't an instant kill it won't affect her because she can ignore all the injuries beside such. More than likely she's immune if it spawned inside her in general because her physiology is different and the body itself is more akin to a puppet for her.

However if something bypasses her skin and goes inside her, it's blatantly still capable of affecting her as shown throughout all the examples of her actually being injured thus far.

The simplest explanation to that is literally that kamachi isn't dealing with the thought that if something goes through her skin it's an internal attack. But that something external breaking through that external barrier and making the internal organs or viscera the external because it is now open to the outside.

Or are you genuinely arguing that Alice only takes external damage and she for some reason is just susceptible to random things that travel through her skin and its kamachi clearly not knowing what he's talking about?

Like- If you have to conjure up multiple explanations like that to justify your stance it's obviously much less reliable than just looking at the actual facts of the text that follow. Kamachi always opens up with hype texts and then follows through with exceptions and evidence thst the hype text wasn't 100% reliable. This is a known writing technique he uses- so to hold his statements as 100% infallible despite him going out of his way later to showcase the statement wasn't 100% accurate is wild.

 

[XDragnoir]

Right, and I would imagine that those pages have more justification than just "built different". Because that's all we know about Alice's constitution. Her being remade from magic doesn't tell us anything regarding what makes her internally different.

And? Why does that actually matter? Resistances don't need complex reasoning to be added beyond "can resist X".

I don’t think we discussed Soul Manipulation from High Priest and I believe what we have on profile for SoG Alesiter isn't an attack, it would just be Grimoires.

HP's soul hax wasn't really used so we don't know what it does in practice, what's he problem with Aleister's tho? "It isn't an attack" doesn't make sense to me.

Biological Manipulation from Misaki doesn’t make sense as her power can work on Alice per my previous. (I'll talk more about this below somewhere.)

The reading part, she wouldn't be able to damage Alice with her powers (in a similar way to how Touma was damaged by mental powers, or well, any other example I can't recall).

Life Force Manipulation, Anna Sprengel isn't destroying the lifeforce so destruction doesn't make sense.

Coronzon's roar does destroy it tho.

 

[Axscell]

I mean this is blatantly contradicted by the later showings. Unless you are arguing she for some reason lacks a brain when she has the sensory organs needed for the brain to interpret things, and she's taking explicit internal damage from things like touma's punches and her general fight that was leaving her bruised and battered which are internal injuries.

Wut? How has it been "blatantly" contradicted? We wouldn't exactly be having a discussion here, if that were the case, y'know. You seem to be misunderstood here. Nobody's claiming that Alice doesn't have any internals, like a brain, blood, etc, and neither is the author/novel. Otherwise we'd be having a whole other discussion about immunity (because that's what that would grant her). The claim here is that she has wildly different internal specifications, and that grants her the ability to resist powers that try to cause her harm by directly targeting these internals. Again, the author goes out of his way to explain this.

Spoiler: Alice resisting Frillsand

The fundamental question of why was everyone around her collapsing?

“Ri…still…inside…”

“That won’t work on the girl,” interrupted Alice with a sleepily clueless smile.

This time, no cricket bat or hedgehog balls emerged from below her apron. This was a formless curse, after all. But Alice was still entirely unaffected by the invisible attack.

Was she built differently from the others on the inside?

Was this like how carbon monoxide was deadly to humans but harmless to insects because their blood was different? This didn’t seem like she simply didn’t feel any pain because she was that much stronger than the average person. It was a lot more like the conditions of the attack didn’t apply to her in the first place. Kamijou even had a meaningless fantasy about someone continually giving animal carcasses to a vulture in the hopes of giving it food poisoning.

I honestly don't understand how you're getting this so mixed up. How does her taking perceived external damage from punches, in any way contradict the idea that she can resist attempts to use abilities to harm her internally?

My interpretation is that she doesn't actually rely on the body for her ability to live and function so she can have her internals attacked and as long as they aren't an instant kill it won't affect her because she can ignore all the injuries beside such. More than likely she's immune if it spawned inside her in general because her physiology is different and the body itself is more akin to a puppet for her.

Plausible interpretation, but it comes with a lot of assumptions that haven't been stated by the author. Either way, it doesn't contradict what's being proposed here, for the most part. If this is later revealed to be the case, her profile can be amended. But for now, we go with what has been directly stated (and try to draw logical conclusions).

However if something bypasses her skin and goes inside her, it's blatantly still capable of affecting her as shown throughout all the examples of her actually being injured thus far.

And yet the author makes it clear that this isn't the case, when he explicitly mentions things like bugs and diseases, which logically have to get to her internals via an external route.

Also, this just straight up contradicts what you just said (or am I misunderstanding?). I mean how does what you're claiming now make any sense, if it were the case that she truly doesn't rely on her physical body (as you've just claimed to be interpreting things)?

The simplest explanation to that is literally that kamachi isn't dealing with the thought that if something goes through her skin it's an internal attack. But that something external breaking through that external barrier and making the internal organs or viscera the external because it is now open to the outside.

If he isn't, then that's just the way he's intended for it to be. I'm not sure why you're trying to apply a whole other dimension to her ability (and getting stuck with the implications that come with it) when that's not been stated to be a factor for her.

Or are you genuinely arguing that Alice only takes external damage and she for some reason is just susceptible to random things that travel through her skin and its kamachi clearly not knowing what he's talking about?

Obviously there's a limit to how tough she physically is, so if you hit her hard enough, it's going to be reflected as damage on her body. But again, no one's claiming that she can't be hurt by applying enough external physical force to her body. The only so-called "random thing that travels through her skin" that you can claim to have caused her harm here are the punches and hits she's taken from Touma and CRC, and again, these are external physical forces being applied to damage her. That Kamachi hasn't explained how physical forces cause her harm when she's resistant to internal damage doesn't in any way negate the fact that she is resistant to them, especially when the author has explicitly made that distinction between the external and the internal.

 

[Shishii]

You typed a lot that can be literally summed up as 'well, we don't know but I'd rather have it be wanked because I refuse to acknowledge that she's taking internal damage in these instances!'

Which well, congrats?

I'm not sure you physically understand what a bruise or cut are like- you are aware those are internal right? That the damage being reflected on the surface is because you went through the external layer and are revealing the internal layering of the body in the case of a cut and bruises which are literally the internal parts of the body being damaged by the force from the outside bursting blood vessels and shit inside the body.

This is a blatant contradiction to 'she takes no damage internally and resists everything'

Hell your dancing around that by saying 'oh she takes external damage! That's all'

Bro, having your brain destroyed and your head isn't 'external damage' you have to crush the external and the internal part of the head to do such.

Your quote even says 'hey, her physiology might be different and that's why she resisted this incredibly specific magic attack that works on human physiology based on ghost photos' (not that it's even saying she did resist it, just she didn't seem to affected by it)

Also diseases don't have to get through you externally, I'm beginning to question your knowledge of bodily sciences even further when you state that. Bugs are a 50/50 cause they could spawn inside you if eggs are laid inside you and the like. However it's pretty obvious that if a punch hurts her then a spider can bite her and dig through her body.

Like, you are aware of why we take damage from being punched right? Like you comprehend how it's essentially force traveling through her skin right? Which again is internal.


Trying to like flail arms around and use any and every justification just to stick a landing when the text is showcasing that actually you can just damage her ass regularly and she takes internal damage, is WILD.


" Alice’s legs were shaking too. Her shoulders were heaving as she breathed and one eye was unnaturally closed. The eyelid may have been cut. But she was still on her feet. "

 

[XDragnoir]

I'm not sure you physically understand what a bruise or cut are like- you are aware those are internal right? That the damage being reflected on the surface is because you went through the external layer and are revealing the internal layering of the body in the case of a cut and bruises which are literally the internal parts of the body being damaged by the force from the outside bursting blood vessels and shit inside the body.

Kamachi counted such damage as external when the bugs biting her skin were counted as external damage, we are well aware of wtf a cut is.

This is a blatant contradiction to 'she takes no damage internally and resists everything'

Hell your dancing around that by saying 'oh she takes external damage! That's all'

Because that's how Kamachi worded it and that's about it, he definitely didn't use the best words to describe her resistances, doesn't change the fact he used them and we have to index it based on how he thought about it.

Physical attacks are counted as external, regardless if they completely pierce through her head or not, spawning an explosion inside of her would count as internal and be resisted (Ollerus' unique spell, Amata's internal shockwaves).

Your quote even says 'hey, her physiology might be different and that's why she resisted this incredibly specific magic attack that works on human physiology based on ghost photos' (not that it's even saying she did resist it, just she didn't seem to affected by it)

She did resist it because it's counted as a curse, y'all are trying to point out how the text wasn't conclusive about her resistances without ever pointing out that she didn't resist something, that's simply because she does have those resistances and resisted Frillsand's curse, the quotes aren't explicit/conclusive because that's basic suspense surrounding her as that was her introduction and she's a god tier character, Kamachi would explain her as if he was writing her profile here on the wiki, wtf.

Goddamn, in GT7 Chapter 4 Part 7 the narration brings her resistances again as a straight fact, NOT as a possibility, and in the same part it revealed the name of her logic connections spell, Bridge Building, that we didn't know at that time.

This is such a stupid point to be making so far into this discussion.

 

[Felience1]

'm not sure you physically understand what a bruise or cut are like- you are aware those are internal right? That the damage being reflected on the surface is because you went through the external layer and are revealing the internal layering of the body in the case of a cut and bruises which are literally the internal parts of the body being damaged by the force from the outside bursting blood vessels and shit inside the body.

A superficial cut of the skin is not internal since bugs can dig through her skin. A punch is external damage. I can't find anything about bruises even with control+f so bring the quote.

Bro, having your brain destroyed and your head isn't 'external damage' you have to crush the external and the internal part of the head to do such.

Bring the quote of the brain being destroyed. All that is said is that her head was gone. Even if it was it was crushing from the outside so it is irrelevant we are not adding resistance to that.

Your quote even says 'hey, her physiology might be different and that's why she resisted this incredibly specific magic attack that works on human physiology based on ghost photos' (not that it's even saying she did resist it, just she didn't seem to affected by it)

Sure and then we have the quote saying that the type of curse does not matter.

Also diseases don't have to get through you externally, I'm beginning to question your knowledge of bodily sciences even further when you state that. Bugs are a 50/50 cause they could spawn inside you if eggs are laid inside you and the like. However it's pretty obvious that if a punch hurts her then a spider can bite her and dig through her body.

Did you just really insulted Axscell intelligence over knowing how bacteria and viruses work? There is no such thing as bacteria spawning inside you (scientific ones). Bugs don't spawn inside. The eggs have to get there somehow. It is obvious that a spider can dig through the superficial skin since that is something we all agree since Kamachi said that himself in the quote about bugs only damaging her exterior skin, i don't even know what are you arguing.

Like, you are aware of why we take damage from being punched right? Like you comprehend how it's essentially force traveling through her skin right? Which again is internal.

External atack. IB. Anything internal was not touched there, only a superficial cut. Bring prove of that.

" Alice’s legs were shaking too. Her shoulders were heaving as she breathed and one eye was unnaturally closed. The eyelid may have been cut. But she was still on her feet. "

Lets end that argument that makes no sense. I will give 2 more sentences about that same fight. And if you read them it is clear that the trembling has nothing to do with anything related to the punch.

"“Tea…cher?” Alice Anotherbible was still down where she had fallen on her rear. She was trembling. She may have seen a bit of what she had done. It had come into focus for her. Who could say when it would all “cloud over” once more, but for this moment at least, her vision was clear. She sounded more than a little dazed. The fully-grown woman spoke with unstable confusion in her voice."

"He faced Alice head on. The girl seemed unable to move beyond her incessant trembling. She was extraordinarily powerful. She had easily killed the reborn Christian Rosencreutz, who not even all the regular Transcendents working together had been a match for, but she was rendered motionless at the sight of this ordinary high school boy. It wasn’t a physical matter."

 

[Felience1]

Coronzon's roar does destroy it tho.

Btw XDragnoir. Can't add that since Qawsed only accepted Anna's and Nuada's ones.

 

[Axscell]

SNIP

The fact that you're not addressing any of the points I made responding to your previous objections, and instead chose to write whole new paragraphs littered with blatant appeals to reality just tells me that you simply intend to drag this argument on by regurgitating old "points" and going in circles. So I'm not sure there is much value in carrying on responding to you, if we're ultimately going to get nowhere.

 

[XDragnoir]

Btw XDragnoir. Can't add that since Qawsed only accepted Anna's and Nuada's ones.

Which doesn't make sense given he was still using the travel logic which doesn't really apply to the roar, destroying the soul is a "secondary effect" which is how he was evaluating stuff and how Anna's lifeforce disruption was accepted.

 

[Felience1]

I agree with you. I just can't use it if he doesn't gave the agree anyways right?

 

[Shishii]

Kamachi counted such damage as external when the bugs biting her skin were counted as external damage, we are well aware of wtf a cut is.

Are you sure? Because so far your arguments haven't showcased that knowledge. I mean heck, most of your argument here is 'oh of course its vague and non-descript! THATS THE MYSTERY!' which like... bro? Your using mystery to give a character resistance to everything under the sun? really?

The fact that you're not addressing any of the points I made responding to your previous objections, and instead chose to write whole new paragraphs littered with blatant appeals to reality just tells me that you simply intend to drag this argument on by regurgitating old "points" and going in circles. So I'm not sure there is much value in carrying on responding to you, if we're ultimately going to get nowhere.

There's nothing to respond to because your entire argument hinges on hoping no one else understands how bodily functions work and actually reading the text. While also ignoring the obvious inconsistencies of how the damage she does take is applied. You are arguing with hope of ignorance or that someone will just take the wank without looking deeply at the matter when thats clearly quite silly.

 

[Zensum]

Soul manipulation is soul manipulation, i don't remember if we discussed that one but we have a few of them more. And what do you mean about Aleister? He destroyed the spheres or the paths (don't remember which) of Qliphah and killed her. If you want me to remove the High Priest one and put any other example but it is the same with all of them. It is internal anyways.

Well... we're looking for Soul Manipulation that does damage. We didn't discuss High Priest so no and his indeterminate intersection ability is said to manipulate value/rank, the text calls it different from his destruction. That Aleister's feat is not really Soul Manipulation. She doesn't have a soul colloquially, Qliphah Puzzle 545 is a demon with something similar to Telesma supporting her essence in the physical world, but artificially constructed based on the Qliphoth. It's NPI on Alesiter's profile for interacting with her ~Telesma body and incorporeal elements like her Spheres. The Soul Manipulation on Aleister's profile seems to be for his quality change with Son of God Synchronization. Regardless, we have Grimoires which fit Soul Manipulation already and you can probably add Coronzon too for her non nondescript soul damage ability.

I read that as attempting anything will trap you, not what you argue below. I don't think that implies at all that it works.

Your interpretation is impossible because the text explicitly says "Peeking inside this girl’s mind". Even then previous thought is discussing controlling Alice. Even then if I ignored all of that "attempting anything will trap you" still wouldn't work because basically all of Misaki's ability categories are Biological Manipulation in some form, unless you're actually implying she was just going to punch or throw her remote at Alice or something...

Sure, there is no difference in disrupting or destructing it, it is as internal anyways but since that was the one Qawsed agreed with and not the others that is more accurate so makes sense.

What I mean is if you destroy/lose the minimum amount of the lifeforce in Toaru you die, while disruption of circulation causes various effects. If we're going with it, Lifeforce Manipulation would be the most accurate.

Where does this limitation come from and where has this even been hinted about.

It's Qaws' interpretation of internal/external damage quotes reconciling with how we rate things on this wiki. My interpretation is again different.

I mean the resistance is getting added from Aureolus anyways. The attack spawns everywhere at once. There should be no limited. She resist the internal part, Not the rest. All of this resistances have that limited already.

Qaws is probably saying it's limited here because we're essentially saying she's resistant to part of Hliðskjálf an external/internal attack the feat we are giving resistance for, unlike with the Izzard case where she would be resistant to the full attack. A minor distinction, Qaws can elaborate if he ever comes back.

She is inmune to bugs. Lifeforce is internal. The 2 effect weird limitation does not exist. This is clear cut.

She's not immune to bugs externally. Their method of damage is external as they are sapping lifeforce from the digested flesh from outside.

I tried. I am giving every bit of context i can and Qawsed asks for. And i don't think we need that much context for this honestly. The quote is straightforward and i am giving every bit of info of the abilities. Qawsed can always ask for more and i will do my best. The several mods i contacted were not interested but feel free to try. But if other mod agrees with more or less things that Qawsed now we need a third one to break tie. This won't ever end.

You can try for someone else, but unfortunately DontTalk is the only staff capable of fully assessing this CRT without context from a supporter. Qaws is the only staff who had context from the previous thread, but it seems he won't be participating any time soon. We can continue ad nauseam if that's what we wanna do, but the more pages there are, the less anyone will wanna get involved here and by all accounts they already don't.

I don't understand what you are trying to say. We both agree he can phase. Not that i think is relevant for this.

Dark Matter is not phasing in the Absorption feat we are assessing for the resistance. Qaws seemed to be confused about that.

Pressure from the outside stops bleeding. From the inside lets out more blood. It says that she bleeds more and more.

? I assure you if your body is being crushed by sufficient pressure you would bleed. You're acting like she's suspended... she's not under so much force that she can't move as she's twitching around. Regardless, these hypothesis' don't matter the text is explicitly describing trampling pressure OVER her there is no mention of pressure IN her.

Disagree. It is a internal power since it is a curse and it sure can damage someone.

? Not all curses are internal like the collar curse that is applied on the skin and the one we're talking about...
The Tripping curse which influences a persons fate isn't internal nor does it internally damage the body. It was agreed on because we previously gave Alice a flat curse resistance. You're making a logic leap non sequitur by appealing to this being agreed on as meaning something abstract like fate is internal.

I am not adding resistance to every Trascendent ability. This has nothing to do with that. And they can't affect her since it has been stated that they can't stop her.
I am adding internal abilities and these are.

Context. I said that i am not adding that.

? Everything about Trascendents and Alice was discussed previously. I just don't know why you presented these to Qaws as already agreed on resistances (they weren't) for a reasoning that's completely different from what we're looking at here. If you just wanted him to assess if these abilities were internal you should have done that.

Wholly irrelevant. Adding unnecessary context was just needlessly confusing Qaws.

This is a spell unique to Curtana that enables the wielder to sever all whole number dimensions, of which 11 are confirmed to exist in Toaru, whether they are lower or higher by swinging the blade, thus cutting anything within a 20 meters range.
Read the scan above, Touma can negate the ranged slice but not the debris that comes after that.
NT22R:
"I don’t fully understand that reflection of yours, but if I slice through the very coordinates at which the barrier exists, the damage gets through. Isn’t that right?"

You're not showing me anything here?
The 20 meter range refers to the dimension cutter slash that stretches from Curtana in a straight line and produces debris crosssection after a ~second along the trajectory of the slash like your quote tells you.
Elizard is just referring to the spacial cutting on the sword... You can tell because she physically tries to swing the sword on Accelerators filter 5 seconds after saying this and the flat edge grazes his nose. These are all melee and extended melee sword moves.
You're interpretation of Curtana has never occurred.

It doesn't work, if she tries she goes crazy.

That means it worked.... She literally cannot go crazy if see didn't read her mind and see the psychedelic first???

The criteria is it affects the inside or not. That's all. No such limitation as timing or 2 separate effect matters. Insects can infect you while they dig into your skin. You are saying that is not resisted because is the same effect? The punch that disrupts lifeforce that he rejected at the start. Why? If the location is internal of the lifeforce. What you are arguing is not Qawsed stance at all. And i have never cared about damage type i don't know what you are talking about. Is internal or not. That's all.

Will try to answer GunTish soon but i don't have much time this days. Sorry for the delays.

That's not our criteria for reasons already explained in this thread, we are interpreting what constitutes internal damage in accordance to text and wiki. No idea where you got timing from my post or what you mean by two separate effects. No, she wouldn't resist it because bugs digging in your skin and giving you an infection from those wounds is external damage. I disagreed on the punch based on my interp, Qaws agrees for the reasons he gave. Obviously as we have two different stances. You don't know what I'm talking about because you're answering my post to someone else for some reason without reading our entire conversation line.

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HP's soul hax wasn't really used so we don't know what it does in practice, what's he problem with Aleister's tho? "It isn't an attack" doesn't make sense to me.

I said above, but what we have on the profile as Soul Manipulation is for Aleister's change to Son of God Synchronization state the other is NPI. Regardless we have 2 abilities that are already soul damage.

The reading part, she wouldn't be able to damage Alice with her powers (in a similar way to how Touma was damaged by mental powers, or well, any other example I can't recall).

She is capable of manipulating Alice's internal biology is what I'm getting at, which means manipulation of her internals is possible.
Mind reading isn't damage itself so I'm not arguing this proves that. I do feel like we've contorted some mere manipulation abilities to mean damage though.

Coronzon's roar does destroy it tho.

It does, but to me a roar that shakes the body and then snuffs the lifeforce is external attack in the same way as hitting someone and giving them internal bleeding is.

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I don't think this CRT is going anywhere without DontTalk to put it bluntly and like I said above the longer this thread gets the less anyone will be interested in looking at it and at this point no new information is really being presented and we're starting to go circular on topics.
Maybe a staff thread can be setup like DontTalk has done in the past idk, I'll try to look for someone but in the mean time I wont be here to post replies until we have some type of admin presence.

 

[XDragnoir]

Are you sure? Because so far your arguments haven't showcased that knowledge.

Are all your comments going to start with you being a jerk, in this thread?

I mean heck, most of your argument here is 'oh of course its vague and non-descript! THATS THE MYSTERY!' which like... bro?

Yes? His argument was "it's vague", the counter is "it was vague in GT5 when presented to us, not really as vague in GT7 when confirmed by the narration".

Your using mystery to give a character resistance to everything under the sun? really?

No? We're using the quotes saying she resists stuff to give her resistance to stuff, as a "possibly" nonetheless, which is the wiki standard for "big statements, few feats".

You're tying two different things into one here.

I said above, but what we have on the profile as Soul Manipulation is for Aleister's change to Son of God Synchronization state the other is NPI. Regardless we have 2 abilities that are already soul damage.

I don't thing SoG has soul hax tied into it? Without rereading, I recall it purifying the body not the soul so idk if it's why Aleister has soul hax.

As for the Qliphah stuff... I guess since it's an "anti-Qliphoth" ability I can agree Alice won't resist it (as she isn't a target to begin with) but it having NPI won't really be a reason for her to not resist it, which is what you seem to be claiming (anyway, as I can see the problems with this one, I will drop it, the thread is long enough as it is).

She is capable of manipulating Alice's internal biology is what I'm getting at, which means manipulation of her internals is possible.
Mind reading isn't damage itself so I'm not arguing this proves that. I do feel like we've contorted some mere manipulation abilities to mean damage though.

I mean, 2 things:

From what we know of Misaki's powers, can we really call her mind reading a form of manipulation? Because truth be told, if she isn't altering/controlling the thoughts someone is having, idk how "thought reading" would be a literal form of "mind manipulation" (especially because well, it's not really mind hax to begin with, it's anime-amped moisture manipulation).

TLDR: is that ability actually manipulating something or just "looking into it"?

If you have one specific ability that is "mere manipulation" then bring it up and we can discuss it, the main point for all the abilities tho is that we've seen an internal form of most of them somewhere and these are the ones Alice would resist, not just any form of application of X ability.

It does, but to me a roar that shakes the body and then snuffs the lifeforce is external attack in the same way as hitting someone and giving them internal bleeding is.

As Qawsed pointed, stuff that works as a secondary effect should be resisted by Alice so again, we're not using a consistent criteria.

I genuinely don't care that much if we'll need to cut like, half of the resistances, but we need to be consistent.

 

[Felience1]

Well... we're looking for Soul Manipulation that does damage. We didn't discuss High Priest so no and his indeterminate intersection ability is said to manipulate value/rank, the text calls it different from his destruction. That Aleister's feat is not really Soul Manipulation. She doesn't have a soul colloquially, Qliphah Puzzle 545 is a demon with something similar to Telesma supporting her essence in the physical world, but artificially constructed based on the Qliphoth. It's NPI on Alesiter's profile for interacting with her ~Telesma body and incorporeal elements like her Spheres. The Soul Manipulation on Aleister's profile seems to be for his quality change with Son of God Synchronization. Regardless, we have Grimoires which fit Soul Manipulation already and you can probably add Coronzon too for her non nondescript soul damage ability.

Changed to Pope and Grimoires. High priest was removed a week ago. I think every change you requested is made. Tell me if you need anything else.

Dark Matter is not phasing in the Absorption feat we are assessing for the resistance. Qaws seemed to be confused about that.

I see, i mean he can do it as i showed earlier but i see where his confusion comes from.

What I mean is if you destroy/lose the minimum amount of the lifeforce in Toaru you die, while disruption of circulation causes various effects. If we're going with it, Lifeforce Manipulation would be the most accurate.

Changed when you told me a week ago. But i think we should also add Coronzon.

? I assure you if your body is being crushed by sufficient pressure you would bleed. You're acting like she's suspended... she's not under so much force that she can't move as she's twitching around. Regardless, these hypothesis' don't matter the text is explicitly describing trampling pressure OVER her there is no mention of pressure IN her.

I mean pressure from the outside is what you use to stop any bleeding. I don't know what you mean about being suspended. And the quote is not exactly like that.
"but something invisible trampled over her. Her body twitched. The dark red on her, under pressure, started to expand a lot more quickly."
Important difference. There is no pressure over her quote. Anyways we have both made our points.

? Not all curses are internal like the collar curse that is applied on the skin and the one we're talking about...
The Tripping curse which influences a persons fate isn't internal nor does it internally damage the body. It was agreed on because we previously gave Alice a flat curse resistance. You're making a logic leap non sequitur by appealing to this being agreed on as meaning something abstract like fate is internal.

I mean we know the fate manip from trascendents does not affect her since Bologna said the only spell that would work on her is Cold Mistress. I don't think there is any leap but again we won't get anywhere as you pointed out. I do not remember that first curse btw so can't comment on that.

? Everything about Trascendents and Alice was discussed previously. I just don't know why you presented these to Qaws as already agreed on resistances (they weren't) for a reasoning that's completely different from what we're looking at here. If you just wanted him to assess if these abilities were internal you should have done that.

I wanted him to assess that 2 abilities indeed i don't know what you mean about presented them as accepted i asked for his opinion. Maybe i didn't word it in the proper way i don't remember when i wrote that.

That means it worked.... She literally cannot go crazy if see didn't read her mind and see the psychedelic first???

I would not call trying to peak into her mind and going crazy without getting anything working but since we don't even know if the things in her mind are what make you crazy or just trying makes you crazy so lets agree to disagree i guess.

 

[ShadeyD]

Was Alice's resistance to Phase Manipulation and Transcendant abilities accepted under her profile?

 

[Felience1]

Was Alice's resistance to Phase Manipulation and Transcendant abilities accepted under her profile?

Phase Manipulation will be discussed in a Thread when this is over.
Trascendant i don't know if it was concluded that it will be debated later or was directly rejected.

 

[XDragnoir]

I will probably create a 2nd thread to summarize the points and get the mods to vote (large CRTs have been doing this lately, I think it's appropriate here given the topic and extension of thread).

Not for now because as I've said two or three times we're still in need of a solid criteria and we're also disagreeing on multiple ends, so we have to reach a consensus of what will be voted there before anything else.

If everyone could list all the criteria y'all have been using to judge stuff, I think that would help progress the discussion

 

[Felience1]

So this votes of Qawsed don't count? We are making it from 0?

My criteria is it affects something internal it is resisted with the exception of Cold Mistress.