[Toaru] Alice Anotherbible's Resistances

[XDragnoir]

Not really a CRT, just a discussion thread to find out which resistances are to be listed as "possible resistance" in Alice's profile (but since it's in theory about adding content, I am creating it in the CRT subforum).

It was accepted in a CRT and it's based on this:

"Also, her body was immune to bacteria, bugs, curses, and all other forms of internal damage, both scientific and magical. As for external damage, she would always remain unscathed thanks to the hedgehogs and flamingo protecting her."

So we've to find out which forms of internal damage have been used in the series before this statement from GT7 and I will list them in the OP so that we can add to a separate tab in her P&A later.

Abilities so far:

1. Vector, Blood and Bioelectricity Manipulation (from Accelerator)

Note: her resistance to Phase Manipulation shouldn't be discussed here.

 

[Felience1]

What do we count as internal damage? is something like mimosa internal damage? is blood manipulation from accelerator internal damage?

 

[XDragnoir]

What do we count as internal damage? is something like mimosa internal damage? is blood manipulation from accelerator internal damage?

Accel definitely as his powers are one of the main examples of internal damage in the verse, his power should give Alice something like "resistance to Vector, Blood and Bioelectricity Manipulation (Accelerator can do it)"

Mimosa is more debatable, but I'd say yes because it directly attacks the cells.

Other examples I can think right now are Mikoto's electricity and EM waves, Kakine's transmutation and Misaki's biological manipulation.

I will add Accel to the OP as an example and we can discuss the others as we go.

 

[Felience1]

This is just so we can decide what counts as internal. We won't put as possibly what she already has in profile right?

Ilusion manipulation with Spiritual Tripping maybe?
Soul manipulation and mind manipulation from any of the sources of the verse, maybe madness with Qliphah or Chimera too?
Space manipulation with Curtana
Teleportation from sources like Kuroko
Durability negation from sources like Curtana maybe?
Matter manipulation from Kakine or Accel
Have no clue if statistics reduction is internal or no
Curse manipulation from Aleister or someone maybe?
Corrosion inducement from Aleiszon maybe?
Explosion manipulation from Ollerus or Othinus spawned inside i think
Whatever resistances would Hliðskjálf give, durability negation and maybe something else?
Law manipulation from Othinus is internal?
Telekinesis from Othinus
Power mimicry have no clue if it counts, Othinus.
Fear manipulation is internal or not?
Vibration manipulation from Nepthys
Empathic manipulation from Nepthys
Reality warping from Aureolus
Memory manipulation from Aureolus
Sleep manipulation from Aureolus
Death manipulation from Aureolus

I will keep going with the kind of powers that we deem internal.

 

[XDragnoir]

This is just so we can decide what counts as internal. We won't put what she already has in profile right?

Ilusion manipulation with Spiritual Tripping maybe?

Not sure about this one, it's a really weird ability to judge when it comes to damage, I am more interested if we can giver Alice resistance to BBB's radiation and heat.

Soul manipulation and mind manipulation from any of the sources of the verse, maybe madness with Qliphah or Chimera too?

Agreed.

Space manipulation with Curtana

Agreed.

Teleportation from sources like Kuroko

Agreed.

Durability negation from sources like Curtana maybe?

No need, everything that will be listed here is already a form of durability negation, it would be repetitive.

Matter manipulation from Kakine or Accel

Kakine is a better example for this, I'd, he would also add resistance to Matter Absorption from his post Revival powers.

Also, Kakine, Etzali and Fiamma all help with resistance to deconstruction to some extent.

Electricity manipulation from either Accel brainhacking or Misaka

Yeah, Mikoto also add EM waves to the mix as I said before.

Have no clue if statistics reduction is internal or no

I'd like to see what other people have in mind about this, do you have a specific character in mind tho? That way it's easier to judge.

Curse manipulation from Aleister or someone maybe?

Yeah, maybe even Curse and Probability hax from that curse his sword has of perpetual failure.

Corrosion inducement from Aleiszon maybe?

This one is after GT7, not sure it was stated again in GT10 that she can resist it based on that statement, so I'd like to see what other supporters think.

I'd say yes due to the hierarchy and things like that, but at that point it would be an extra layer of speculation on top of the resistances themselves.

Explosion manipulation from Ollerus or Othinus spawned inside i think
Whatever resistances would Hliðskjálf give, durability negation and maybe something else?

Just explosion/shockwave is fine, as I explained above.

Law manipulation from Othinus is internal?

Phase Manipulation and its applications won't be discussed here.

Telekinesis from Othinus

Not sure if that came from Phase Manipulation or not.

Power mimicry have no clue if it counts, Othinus.

Ehhh, not really.

Fear manipulation is internal or not?

Not sure.

Vibration manipulation from Nepthys
Empathic manipulation from Nepthys

Agreed

Reality warping from Aureolus
Memory manipulation from Aureolus
Sleep manipulation from Aureolus
Death manipulation from Aureolus

Pretty much agreed.

I will keep going with the kind of powers that we deem internal.

 

[Felience1]

Not sure about this one, it's a really weird ability to judge when it comes to damage, I am more interested if we can giver Alice resistance to BBB's radiation and heat.

Radiation and heat sound pretty internal to me. I would say Spiritual counts becouse it happens in the mind and does no damage to surroundings.

Kakine is a better example for this, I'd, he would also add resistance to Matter Absorption from his post Revival powers.

Also, Kakine, Etzali and Fiamma all help with resistance to deconstruction to some extent.

Looks good to me.

This one is after GT7, not sure it was stated again in GT10 that she can resist it based on that statement, so I'd like to see what other supporters think.

I'd say yes due to the hierarchy and things like that, but at that point it would be an extra layer of speculation on top of the resistances themselves.

The hax was already there in GT7, is not like is something he learned during the fight, i can see why someone may disagree with this one though. I would say yes.

Edit: nevermind Coronzon had it too.

I'd like to see what other people have in mind about this, do you have a specific character in mind tho? That way it's easier to judge.

Aleister with Zombie spell for example? he did the double nerf.

Yeah, maybe even Curse and Probability hax from that curse his sword has of perpetual failure.

Forgot about that one, but makes sense.


Is every resistance a different potency scaling to each individual feat? then we should look only for the strongest feat of each hax.

 

[Felience1]

Life force destruction from Coronzon roar. Aradia can manipulate life too.
Is powernull of any character internal? Kazakiri seems a good one for this, there are of course others examples.
Water manipulation via moisture absorption of Nepthys.
Gravity manipulation from Aureolus.
Conceptual manipulation from Archetype.
Weight manipulation from Aleister or Choronzon?
Poison manipulation from Touma's dragon.
We have a few Sound manipulation haxes, no clue if they count. like four eyed dragon or Aureolus.
Stamina reduction from flame dragon?
Sealing from Fiamma.
We have also pain manipulation from fiamma, it comes from grimoire. Stiyl seems to have it too says index profile. Unreapaddy has Pashupata spell too. Bologna maybe?
Sin manipulation from Coronzon.
Existence Erasure from Coronzon's ceremony?
Paralysis inducement and Darkness manipulation from Niang-Niang shadow blades? if not misaka for paralysis.
Possession from Aiwass or Elza.
Information manipulation from Uiharu or Kreutune.
What does Fraulein Kreutune give with the microscopic thing she inserted?
Intangibility from dark matter? is internal but is a weird one.
Acid manipulation via Acid (random esper), if breathed it damages lungs.
Telekinesis via Qiong Qi
Body Puppetry from Qliphah
Biological Manipulation with Alfar and Misaki as you said (wanted to add Alfar, maybe is better?)
Microwave attacks from fran
Perception manipulation is internal? Loki.

I bring fear manipulation again, Dainsleif is maybe the best one? up to you to debate if it counts or not, i think it does.
Thats all of the ones i found.

 

[Churronzon]

Agree with Zensum FRB

 

[XDragnoir]

Is powernull of any character internal? Kazakiri seems a good one for this, there are of course others examples.

That one should also give resistance to Law Manipulation.

Bologna maybe?

This one was stated to work against Alice.

Intangibility from dark matter? is internal but is a weird one.

Intangibility? That doesn't really cause damage in any sense.

Agree with Zensum FRB

Do you disagree with anything?

 

[Felience1]

This one was stated to work against Alice.

Forgot about that.

The ones you didn't talk about look good to you?

Is every resistance a different potency scaling to each individual feat? then we should look only for the strongest feat of each hax.

 

[Zensum]

Abilities so far:

1. Vector, Blood and Bioelectricity Manipulation (from Accelerator)

The application of blood and bioelectricity manipulation make sense, but why is broad control over vectors being considered here?

Ilusion manipulation with Spiritual Tripping maybe?

What internal damage is illusion manipulation (Spiritual Tripping) doing, unless you're saying she would possibly resist a specific weapon that does internal damage?

Soul manipulation and mind manipulation from any of the sources of the verse, maybe madness with Qliphah or Chimera too?

I'm not convinced she resists mind manipulation and by extension madness manipulation for this justification because (Cold Mistress a psychological/neurological ability) has been stated numerous times that it could work on her and (Mental Out's mind read can seemingly be used, but Misaki would be subjected to the psychedelic nature of Alice's mind.)
The quotes are about the body being immune to internal damage, not the soul.

Space manipulation with Curtana
Durability negation from sources like Curtana maybe?

Curtana cleaves space by cutting right through the dimension at the line of the slash, it's not anymore an internal attack than an ordinary sword bisecting someone.

Teleportation from sources like Kuroko

I assume you mean Telefragging? Logically what would happen if an object that was larger than Alice was teleported on her? The most you could argue is something like "her insides are so different an Esper couldn't spatially coordinate there", but thats not in text so we'd just be making stuff up.

Matter manipulation from Kakine or Accel

Matter manipulation is very broad and not necessarily internal damage.
Kakine: Manipulation comes from controlling Dark Matter, which isn't an attack by itself. You probably mean applications of Dark Matter like transmutation. Kakine uses his wings to attack the body and wholly reduces the body's cells to sand, so it's doing external damage too.
Accel: Manipulation comes from controlling vectors of (subatomic) particles, it hasn't been used as a bodily damage iirc.
-
To elaborate on what's logically possible and my comments after this, we've seen that Alice can take internal damage from external damage done on the outside of her body like from the CRC (Destroyed her head, shattered her skull, blood pooled out of the body, etc) and Touma (Bleeding from eyelid from being punched and claimed she would just revive if Touma killed her) cases.

Have no clue if statistics reduction is internal or no

I don't see how it would be without an ability in mind.

Curse manipulation from Aleister or someone maybe?

Sure.

Corrosion inducement from Aleiszon maybe?

Is this the wind from the bat wings that corrodes whatever it touches? That's an external attack.

Explosion manipulation from Ollerus or Othinus spawned inside i think

They didn't. Ollerus walked into them if that's what you're referring too.

Whatever resistances would Hliðskjálf give, durability negation and maybe something else?

I disagree. Hliðskjálf hits every part of the body uniformly.

Law manipulation from Othinus is internal?

Shelved for RW thread.

Telekinesis from Othinus

Has Othinus used Telekinesis internally?

Power mimicry have no clue if it counts, Othinus.

What internal damage does this do?

Fear manipulation is internal or not?

Fear manipulation is a psychological effect so I disagree for reasons I stated above.

Vibration manipulation from Nepthys

This is another case of an external attack doing holistic damage to the entire body.

Empathic manipulation from Nepthys

How does this damage the body internally?

Reality warping from Aureolus

Shelved for RW thread.

Memory manipulation from Aureolus
Sleep manipulation from Aureolus

These uses of Ars Magna aren't internally damaging her body.

Death manipulation from Aureolus

This use of Ars Magna explicitly doesn't damage the body at all.

Since this is a lot, I'll comment on the other subsequent lists after we get this one settled.
It would help if you could explain why she would logically resist a power too after you list it.

 

[Axscell]

NGL, I'm having trouble seeing how some of these qualify as internal damage. Shouldn't we be giving immunity to only things that exclusively target internals to cause damage? Something like Vector Manipulation, while it can be applied to target internals (like the Blood Manipulation specified above), shouldn't really give her immunity to it, as that's merely one application of Vector Manipulation out of many (most of which cause external damage).

P.S. I'll go through the individual resistances later.

 

[Felience1]

The application of blood and bioelectricity manipulation make sense, but why is broad control over vectors being considered here?

Vectors can be internal, he can use them to mess with the inside of someone's body.

What internal damage is illusion manipulation (Spiritual Tripping) doing, unless you're saying she would possibly resist a specific weapon that does internal damage?

I'm not convinced she resists mind manipulation and by extension madness manipulation for this justification because (Cold Mistress a psychological/neurological ability) has been stated numerous times that it could work on her and (Mental Out's mind read can seemingly be used, but Misaki would be subjected to the psychedelic nature of Alice's mind.)
The quotes are about the body being immune to internal damage, not the soul.

Soul damage is internal, the same thing goes for mind manipulation since grimoire can destroy someone's mind. I don't think Misaki could use it since se would just be trapped inside her mind. ST works by causing damage directly to the target provoking a image in someone's mind. For example Big Bang Bomb contaminates every single cell of the target, Gamma knife ignores the surrounding and targets exactly what he wants inside someone. If we know curses don't work, i think all of this work in the same level of internal.

Where is the quote for Cold Mistress affecting Alice btw? I want to see what is says exactly and i remember there was something about it but only found this.
GT10 Chapter 4 Part 2:

"The Bologna Succubus’s Cold Mistress spell could replace all pleasure with equal amounts of pain, regardless of the target’s physical toughness and endurance. That attack had made even Christian Rosencreutz grimace, but would it work here? Was this version of Alice in a mental state where she experienced that sort of human emotion?"

Curtana cleaves space by cutting right through the dimension at the line of the slash, it's not anymore an internal attack than an ordinary sword bisecting someone.

Accelerator has immunity to this because the all-dimensions severing spell targets the inner body. It cleaves the space itself and its dimensions. If this is a problem there should be more space manipulation haxes, can look for them if needed.

I don't see how it would be without an ability in mind.

Zombie spell comes to mind.

Is this the wind from the bat wings that corrodes whatever it touches? That's an external attack.

Is air, it works both from the inside and outside i would say.

They didn't. Ollerus walked into them if that's what you're referring too.

You are right, my bad i misremembered. XDragnoir has another shockwave/explosion feat i think? i don't see what he was talking about when responding to me.

I disagree. Hliðskjálf hits every part of the body uniformly.

If the damage is both internal and external then is both not neither of them. i think it counts but not needed it seems as XDragnoir we have other feats.

Shelved for RW thread.

Has Othinus used Telekinesis internally?

What internal damage does this do?

Those should not be added with these changes, power mimicry never probably. was a list to see what we deemed internal. didn't give much thought to what counts so my bad.

Fear manipulation is a psychological effect so I disagree for reasons I stated above.

Stopping someone's heart with dainsleif is a good form of internal damage to me.

This is another case of an external attack doing holistic damage to the entire body.

As i said with ollerus before, if it is internal and external it should count as both i think. I will wait for more input with these matter but turning something to ash vibrating it clear enough to me.

How does this damage the body internally?

Similar case as mind manipulation. Alice mind is hard to control.

Shelved for RW thread.

That was for Phase Manipulation. Aureolus uses Ars Magna. We will add it with the other CRT if we decide she has resistance for Phase manipulation but this has nothing to do with that.

These uses of Ars Magna aren't internally damaging her body.

Is altering internal things about Alice, not as clear cut as other things but i think is good enough.

This use of Ars Magna explicitly doesn't damage the body at all.

Proserpina has it too, killing someone to me counts as internal damage because you are harming that person by killing them.

Since this is a lot, I'll comment on the other subsequent lists after we get this one settled.
It would help if you could explain why she would logically resist a power too after you list it.

Sure. Whenever you have time we are not in a hurry.

Please let me know what you disagree with so i can address it.

 

[Felience1]

NGL, I'm having trouble seeing how some of these qualify as internal damage. Shouldn't we be giving immunity to only things that exclusively target internals to cause damage? Something like Vector Manipulation, while it can be applied to target internals (like the Blood Manipulation specified above), shouldn't really give her immunity to it, as that's merely one application of Vector Manipulation out of many (most of which cause external damage).

P.S. I'll go through the individual resistances later.

This is about internal resistance. if we give her resistance to a power that will only be while used internally. Almost every internal power can be used externally too, Kamachi gave us a example with bugs and bacteria (quote above in XDragnoir post), she is immune to bugs internally even if he didn't specified it (bacteria can be external too like being in the skin too).
That's my view on this CRT, if you see this in a different way let me know so we can all be on the same page.

 

[XDragnoir]

The application of blood and bioelectricity manipulation make sense, but why is broad control over vectors being considered here?

Because it's the method through which Accelerator's power work and which is used to cause said damage in the first place.

What internal damage is illusion manipulation (Spiritual Tripping) doing, unless you're saying she would possibly resist a specific weapon that does internal damage?

Aleister's Illusions cause imaginary damage which becomes real as it happens, so it is somewhat internal.

The resistance to specific weapons (BBB is the only one with internal damage IIRC) is also a valid thing.

The quotes are about the body being immune to internal damage, not the soul.

Soul damage is a form of internal damage that can be targeted at one's body, it's not like the soul exists in some unrelated dimension or anything like that.

Curtana cleaves space by cutting right through the dimension at the line of the slash, it's not anymore an internal attack than an ordinary sword bisecting someone.

The slash can be spawned inside someone, so it definitely counts as internal damage, unlike a sword which is always an external attack.

We also have precedence of someone resisting Curtana with magic (Yuisen) so it's not even the first time someone would resist it.

I'm not convinced she resists mind manipulation

She only resists those which would damage her mind like Grimoires, mind reading and Cold Mistress don't cause damage.

Logically what would happen if an object that was larger than Alice was teleported on her

The object wouldn't be teleported inside her, only around her, she would end up like Awaki did (trapped inside the object).

Kakine uses his wings to attack the body and wholly reduces the body's cells to sand, so it's doing external damage too.

His transmutation isn't external damage, what?

Is this the wind from the bat wings that corrodes whatever it touches? That's an external attack.

That doesn't matter, the wind is external, the corrosion is internal.

I disagree. Hliðskjálf hits every part of the body uniformly.

Same as above, but like, most of the human body is internal to begin with, how is an ability that explicitly hits internal organs not internal damage?

This is another case of an external attack doing holistic damage to the entire body.

Again, it doesn't matter if the source is internal if the effect itself is internal, Nephthys turning someone to ash by vibrating their whole body is internal damage.

NGL, I'm having trouble seeing how some of these qualify as internal damage. Shouldn't we be giving immunity to only things that exclusively target internals to cause damage? Something like Vector Manipulation, while it can be applied to target internals (like the Blood Manipulation specified above), shouldn't really give her immunity to it, as that's merely one application of Vector Manipulation out of many (most of which cause external damage).

P.S. I'll go through the individual resistances later.

She doesn't have immunity to anything, immunity is another thing altogether here in the wiki and Alice doesn't have it. She has resistance to any form of vector control that's used to cause internal damage, not to any of the external ones and as Felience pointed out, her resistance clearly applies to things like bugs which aren't exclusively internal

 

[Qawsedf234]

Shouldn't we be giving immunity to only things that exclusively target internals to cause damage?

Yeah. The resistance would apply to attacks that start in the internal organs or target them specifically. Anything from the outside coming in wouldn't have a resistance with that ability on the wiki.

 

[Zensum]

Vectors can be internal, he can use them to mess with the inside of someone's body.

Sure like reverse bloodflow and bioelectricity, but Accelerator can also use vector control to rip all the skin off a body or more generally redirect vectors of a body that touch his skin. Reflection in this sense would destroy that body, but isn't an internal attack. It only makes sense to give resistance to internal applications of vector control.

Soul damage is internal, the same thing goes for mind manipulation since grimoire can destroy someone's mind. I don't think Misaki could use it since se would just be trapped inside her mind. ST works by causing damage directly to the target provoking a image in someone's mind. For example Big Bang Bomb contaminates every single cell of the target, Gamma knife ignores the surrounding and targets exactly what he wants inside someone. If we know curses don't work, i think all of this work in the same level of internal.

Where is the quote for Cold Mistress affecting Alice btw? I want to see what is says exactly and i remember there was something about it but only found this.
GT10 Chapter 4 Part 2:

"The Bologna Succubus’s Cold Mistress spell could replace all pleasure with equal amounts of pain, regardless of the target’s physical toughness and endurance. That attack had made even Christian Rosencreutz grimace, but would it work here? Was this version of Alice in a mental state where she experienced that sort of human emotion?"

Eh it's possible, I'm fine with soul manipulation.
In order for Misaki to be trapped in Alice's "world", she would have to use her power to look at it.
I would be fine with mind manipulation for grimoires, for this internal justification, if it weren't for two psychological abilities "working" on her.
The illusion manipulation part is pantomime that creates foothold in the mind so the target can see the weapon images. No damage happening there. There's also the fact it's possible to actively intercept/deflect spiritual tripping attacks with Imagine Breaker and certain defensive magics. BBB doesn't make sense to me since effectively its a bomb, everything is fried instantly. Gamma Knife makes sense since it starts inside the organs. So I guess she would get radiation manipulation resistance regardless.

Here are some of the quotes:

Spoiler: GT6, C2, P6

“My Cold Mistress spell is nothing like your Rule of Three magic, but that’s why you’re helpless against it, isn’t it? After all, if used right, this could make me the only Transcendent in the cabal who could fight back against Alice!!”

Spoiler: GT6, C3, P4

He could see now why she had said she might be able to fight back against Alice with that power. When you didn’t need to specifically target each individual, you could attack a general group over a large range. The sexy demon wiggled her tail and smiled scornfully down at the surface.

Spoiler: GT6, C3, P5

“Your Cold Mistress takes every single pleasure signal – which are meant to efficiently guide us toward survival and reproduction – and converts them all into intense pain. I can’t deny it is a dangerous power that could even stop that tyrant Alice if the conditions were right, but if I soak myself in negative emotions like regret and hatred, then you have nothing left to convert. Your spell is powerless if I do not seek out pleasure or comfort.”

Spoiler: GT7, C2, P2

In Shibuya, the Bologna Succubus had said he was the only person capable of controlling Alice, but was that really true?

Spoiler: GT7, C3, P1

This was Cold Mistress, the Bologna Succubus’s Transcendent spell. Didn’t it replace hunger, lust, sleepiness, and all other pleasure signals with pain? And if used correctly, it was supposedly the only spell with the possibility of rivalling Alice.

Accelerator has immunity to this because the all-dimensions severing spell targets the inner body. It cleaves the space itself and its dimensions. If this is a problem there should be more space manipulation haxes, can look for them if needed.

Accelerator explicitly isn't immune to the all-dimensions severing phenomena, he counters Curtana by diverting the vector of the physical blade which is why Elizard can only damage him when she slices on the exact coordinates of his barrier.

Zombie spell comes to mind.

Is that indexed as statistics manipulation? The novel is vague on how Zombie spell is willingly placed inside the Magic Gods.

Is air, it works both from the inside and outside i would say.

The gale comes from flapping wings which is an external attack, you can physically evade it like CRC. The assumption is if an ability starts from the outside she wouldn't resist it.

You are right, my bad i misremembered. XDragnoir has another shockwave/explosion feat i think? i don't see what he was talking about when responding to me.
If the damage is both internal and external then is both not neither of them. i think it counts but not needed it seems as XDragnoir we have other feats.

I'll refer to XDragnoir's post then.

Stopping someone's heart with dainsleif is a good form of internal damage to me.

That makes sense, I'm fine with fear manipulation.

Similar case as mind manipulation. Alice mind is hard to control.

Emotion/mood change doesn't overtly seem like "damage".

That was for Phase Manipulation. Aureolus uses Ars Magna. We will add it with the other CRT if we decide she has resistance for Phase manipulation but this has nothing to do with that.

Since the ability will be resistance to reality warping, we might as well debate both together on that thread.

Is altering internal things about Alice, not as clear cut as other things but i think is good enough.

I don't think so per my Cold Mistress argument. Her body can be altered internally.

Proserpina has it too, killing someone to me counts as internal damage because you are harming that person by killing them.

Proserpina's death manipulation is delivered by projectile and with Ars Magna the target simply drops dead with no bodily damage or cause of death. Killing is harming sure, but to argue the resistance we have to prove the damage comes from an ability that targets the body internally.

---

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Because it's the method through which Accelerator's power work and which is used to cause said damage in the first place.

Vector manipulation is a broad ability, I'd say she’s not resisting the method, but the damage application. It's kinda like Spiritual Tripping where she’s not resisting the broad illusion manip, she’s resisting the various different weapon damages.

Aleister's Illusions cause imaginary damage which becomes real as it happens, so it is somewhat internal.

The resistance to specific weapons (BBB is the only one with internal damage IIRC) is also a valid thing.

Well the damage isn't imaginary its very physical, its the mental link + weapon gestures that's imaginary. And even the tripping attacks can be negated/deflected by Imagine Breaker or certain defense magic.
I agree with radiation manipulation for gamma knife as it spawns internally, but not BBB as it essentially just frys the entire body instantly like a bomb would.

Soul damage is a form of internal damage that can be targeted at one's body, it's not like the soul exists in some unrelated dimension or anything like that.

I'm fine with soul manipulation.

The slash can be spawned inside someone, so it definitely counts as internal damage, unlike a sword which is always an external attack.
We also have precedence of someone resisting Curtana with magic (Yuisen) so it's not even the first time someone would resist it.

I don't recall, can you show me an instance of Curtana's slash being spawned inside someone without someone physically swinging the sword?
I don't particularly see the relevance of this, Yuisen and Curtana create a contradiction because both carry the "cut through anything" property.

She only resists those which would damage her mind like Grimoires, mind reading and Cold Mistress don't cause damage.

Cold Mistress would count. It replaces the nervous system's pain signals that range from slight nagging irritation to the extreme agony 'that led people to reject the act of living' in proportion to the brains pleasure signals. With Aradia, her body collapses and she gets goosebumps, pale face, tremors etc which are really just physical reactions in response to internal instability.

The object wouldn't be teleported inside her, only around her, she would end up like Awaki did (trapped inside the object).

You're thinking of the reverse. Given your example, I'm asking what happens to the piece of wall that was deleted the moment Awaki's leg took its position in space.
It seems your arguing that the Teleporter either wouldn't be able to 'spatially locate' her insides or weird displacement would happen like with Accelerator, idk about this one I'll see what others think.

His transmutation isn't external damage, what?

Kakine's six wings/dark matter have to hit you for the dark matter to transmute all the body's cells.

That doesn't matter, the wind is external, the corrosion is internal.

The gale of wind has to touch you to start corrosion which of course would start externally.
The assumption would be if the attack starts on the outside she doesn't resist it. It would have to start on the inside. (Asked a mod)

Same as above, but like, most of the human body is internal to begin with, how is an ability that explicitly hits internal organs not internal damage?

I didn't say it doesn't do internal damage, I'm saying it evenly damages everything at once. The attack is purposefully inexplicable and has no markers to tell where it comes from or how it spawns so we can't prove where it starts.

Again, it doesn't matter if the source is internal if the effect itself is internal, Nephthys turning someone to ash by vibrating their whole body is internal damage.

It's a sonic attack from her cry and the vibrational effect causes the shaking. Essentially it's an attack thats starts on the outside.

 

[XDragnoir]

It only makes sense to give resistance to internal applications of vector control.

Which is exactly what we are going to do, we're giving her general resistance to vector hax because any internal application of vector hax would fall in the internal damage category. Side note, Accel has a more direct version of matter manipulation such as what he did to Last Order's brain, so Matter hax would be included in her resistances alongside whatever else Accel can do internally.

BBB doesn't make sense to me since effectively its a bomb, everything is fried instantly.

She wouldn't resist the explosion, that's an AP related thing, she would resist the radiation and the heat, both which affect their targets internally.

The gale comes from flapping wings which is an external attack, you can physically evade it like CRC. The assumption is if an ability starts from the outside she wouldn't resist it.

That has nothing to do with this, the corrosion itself happens internally, this is no different from the direct examples we get with bugs and bacteria (I think viruses were also directly named at some point, not sure tho).

To simplify, if we were judging it based on the source effectively everything comes from the outside, what matters is it affecting the internals as directly as bugs, a bacteria or poison would (as these are the examples the series gave) and the 3 are external from their creation and only affect your aside as a side effect of their actions (bugs specifically do macro scale damage which results on internal damage).

Vector manipulation is a broad ability, I'd say she’s not resisting the method, but the damage application. It's kinda like Spiritual Tripping where she’s not resisting the broad illusion manip, she’s resisting the various different weapon damages.

That depends, for example, would you say in a vs thread that Alice resists Blood Magic? (Blood Magic that does exactly what Accelerator can do with blood, no more, no less), if you say yes, I'd say we don't index Vector Hax and only index the resistances she gets from Vector Hax applications, if you think she wouldn't resist it, we have to index Vector to make it clear what exactly is the specific source of her resistances.

Also, given Accel's Wings give him the ranged vector control which allows him to just tear his targets body with just vector control, I'd say vector manipulation itself would have to be resisted.

Well the damage isn't imaginary its very physical, its the mental link + weapon gestures that's imaginary. And even the tripping attacks can be negated/deflected by Imagine Breaker or certain defense magic.
I agree with radiation manipulation for gamma knife as it spawns internally, but not BBB as it essentially just frys the entire body instantly like a bomb would.

Read again what I said, the damage is imaginary and becomes real as it happens and I am pretty sure it can only be interacted with by its target, mainly because BBB doesn't damage even close buildings.

Already explained why she would resist the radiation and the heat above.

Cold Mistress would count. It replaces the nervous system's pain signals that range from slight nagging irritation to the extreme agony 'that led people to reject the act of living' in proportion to the brains pleasure signals. With Aradia, her body collapses and she gets goosebumps, pale face, tremors etc which are really just physical reactions in response to internal instability.

Which isn't part of the spell, it's the side effect of being affected by something that, by itself, isn't harmful.

For comparison, erasing someone consciousness is the hax, they being in a catatonic state is the consequence of the hax, not part of it.

You're thinking of the reverse. Given your example, I'm asking what happens to the piece of wall that was deleted the moment Awaki's leg took its position in space.

As you said, Teleporters in Toaru delete matter when there's overlapping (Kuroko does this often) or when the teleportation fails (Kamino), whatever happens to other teleported objects would depend on the verse.

I don't recall, can you show me an instance of Curtana's slash being spawned inside someone without someone physically swinging the sword?
I don't particularly see the relevance of this, Yuisen and Curtana create a contradiction because both carry the "cut through anything" property.

First, what does swinging the sword or not have to do with this? 2nd, Curtana can be spawned wherever the user chooses (limited to a certain area obviously) such as what's explained that Elizard did against Accelerator (spawn it at the coordinates of his barrier).

Kakine's six wings/dark matter have to hit you for the dark matter to transmute all the body's cells.

Read everything I said above, Kakine's transmutation is literally a cellular level process, like, honestly I don't even get what's your criteria but it's clearly wrong, the Wing hitting you is no different from Accelerator having to touch you to redirect your blood (which you agreed with), both are equally dodgeable.

The gale of wind has to touch you to start corrosion which of course would start externally.
The assumption would be if the attack starts on the outside she doesn't resist it. It would have to start on the inside. (Asked a mod)

First, it's the same as above, 2nd, the corrosion would damage her internals, so it clearly has to be resisted, otherwise the statement gets contradicted.

Again, I've no idea why you're interpreting this as "attacks that start inside AND only attacks that are limited to the insides" instead of what the quote actually says, which is anything that causes internal damage, with the only exclusion being physical attacks such as punches, blades and whatever. Why are we wasting time discussing what is internal damage?

I didn't say it doesn't do internal damage, I'm saying it evenly damages everything at once. The attack is purposefully inexplicable and has no markers to tell where it comes from or how it spawns so we can't prove where it starts.

Same as above.

It's a sonic attack from her cry and the vibrational effect causes the shaking. Essentially it's an attack thats starts on the outside.

Same as above.

 

[Felience1]

I think you are misunderstanding what we want to add. This is a internal resistance list, she is only resistant when the power is used internally. if a power can be used internally and externally like the bugs and bacteria which are in the kamachi quote in the op. She will only be resistant the the internal application of the power. When you say that it can be used externally too is irrelevant because this is a internal damage resistance list. She will not have resistance to the external applications. I hope that addresses your concerns about powers that can be used as both like air corrosion. When inhaled won't do anything to her and when touching her skin will. Every single resistance we will be adding will work ONLY when a internal effect happens.

Now i will talk about specific concerns.

Sure like reverse bloodflow and bioelectricity, but Accelerator can also use vector control to rip all the skin off a body or more generally redirect vectors of a body that touch his skin. Reflection in this sense would destroy that body, but isn't an internal attack. It only makes sense to give resistance to internal applications of vector control.

Refer above.

Eh it's possible, I'm fine with soul manipulation.
In order for Misaki to be trapped in Alice's "world", she would have to use her power to look at it.
I would be fine with mind manipulation for grimoires, for this internal justification, if it weren't for two psychological abilities "working" on her.
The illusion manipulation part is pantomime that creates foothold in the mind so the target can see the weapon images. No damage happening there. There's also the fact it's possible to actively intercept/deflect spiritual tripping attacks with Imagine Breaker and certain defensive magics. BBB doesn't make sense to me since effectively its a bomb, everything is fried instantly. Gamma Knife makes sense since it starts inside the organs. So I guess she would get radiation manipulation resistance regardless.

Of course someone has to use a power for her to be resistant. And Kamachi says that maybe Cold Mistress won't work on her and we have 0 proof that it works or that it will cause damage to her instead of just swapping emotions. She just thinks it could affect Alice without ever working right? We know that mental attacks won't work on her except maybe Cold Mistress. Also for Alice when adult we have this:
"The Bologna Succubus’s Cold Mistress spell could replace all pleasure with equal amounts of pain, regardless of the target’s physical toughness and endurance. That attack had made even Christian Rosencreutz grimace, but would it work here? Was this version of Alice in a mental state where she experienced that sort of human emotion?"

Imagine breaker can intercept lots of internal attacks like blood manipulation and things that break joints. It is completely nonrelated to this topic.
Defensive magics could also intercept Gamma knife, don't understand your point.
If everything is fried instantly. Is both internal and external damage attack. and since it starts in your mind i would say it is probably completely internal. Either way she will only be resistant when it affects her internals as i said above. If a rapier that extends is used on Alice with ST then it will work fine. Only a resistance when internal.

Thank you for the quotes btw.

Accelerator explicitly isn't immune to the all-dimensions severing phenomena, he counters Curtana by diverting the vector of the physical blade which is why Elizard can only damage him when she slices on the exact coordinates of his barrier.

This is from Accelerator profile. It was deemed internal.

Internal Spell Immunity: In addition, by incorporating his newfound knowledge regarding Magic, Accelerator has developed an immunity to spells that specifically target his inner body, as showcased throughout his battles against Elizard's All-Dimensions Severing spell and Nephthys' water-based moisture-draining technique.

Is that indexed as statistics manipulation? The novel is vague on how Zombie spell is willingly placed inside the Magic Gods.

Yes it is indexed as that. It clearly did not affect their exterior but is working despite no external seeming effect. Good enough for me.

The gale comes from flapping wings which is an external attack, you can physically evade it like CRC. The assumption is if an ability starts from the outside she wouldn't resist it.

It doesn't matter where it start. What matters is what is affected. The bugs and bacteria we know she is inmune didn't spawn inside her. They go in and do the thing.
Same thing with her curse or Soul resistance. The attack is made from someone external but it is irrelevant. The effect will only be internal. Of course it will work on her skin in this case as i said above. This is just when inside her body.

Emotion/mood change doesn't overtly seem like "damage".

Using mental out is not "damage" it would have messed Misaki anyways.

Since the ability will be resistance to reality warping, we might as well debate both together on that thread.

Completely disagree, if we decide that she is not resistant to phase manipulation. Then Reality warping will not be in her profile despite being clearly internal in some uses. She should have resistance to internal reality warping now because then maybe it won't be added if the other revision is rejected and it will make no sense. Phase manipulation has powers we are already adding as resistance, why not this one?

Proserpina's death manipulation is delivered by projectile and with Ars Magna the target simply drops dead with no bodily damage or cause of death. Killing is harming sure, but to argue the resistance we have to prove the damage comes from an ability that targets the body internally.

If you agreed that stopping someone's heart with dainsleif is indeed internal damage. How is stopping every organ of Alice not? it is the same thing.

Vector manipulation is a broad ability, I'd say she’s not resisting the method, but the damage application. It's kinda like Spiritual Tripping where she’s not resisting the broad illusion manip, she’s resisting the various different weapon damages.

Only when internal. Refer above.

Well the damage isn't imaginary its very physical, its the mental link + weapon gestures that's imaginary. And even the tripping attacks can be negated/deflected by Imagine Breaker or certain defense magic.
I agree with radiation manipulation for gamma knife as it spawns internally, but not BBB as it essentially just frys the entire body instantly like a bomb would.

Imagine Breaker and other things have nothing to do with this. Still can deflect internal damage.
Refer above for ST.

Cold Mistress would count. It replaces the nervous system's pain signals that range from slight nagging irritation to the extreme agony 'that led people to reject the act of living' in proportion to the brains pleasure signals. With Aradia, her body collapses and she gets goosebumps, pale face, tremors etc which are really just physical reactions in response to internal instability.

This is on edge for me as said above. I think it won't work never or ALMOST never. Not sure if Cold Mistress is a exception, other forms of mind control and maybe that one too trap the user with no effect.

You're thinking of the reverse. Given your example, I'm asking what happens to the piece of wall that was deleted the moment Awaki's leg took its position in space.
It seems your arguing that the Teleporter either wouldn't be able to 'spatially locate' her insides or weird displacement would happen like with Accelerator, idk about this one I'll see what others think.

Yes teleporting a metal rod inside Alice's head will clearly do internal damage. It doesn't happen or she doesn't takes damage. We don't know how it works in this case but we know it won't work.

Kakine's six wings/dark matter have to hit you for the dark matter to transmute all the body's cells.

Transmuting internal organs is very internal damage. Acceleretor matter manipulation can start inside someone too as we know with last order. Kakine can also make intangible matter so that it starts inside. Kakine having dark matter in his wings has nothing to do with changing Alice organs for sand.

It's a sonic attack from her cry and the vibrational effect causes the shaking. Essentially it's an attack thats starts on the outside.

Has nothing to do with the effect. Soul manipulation starts with a magician casting outside.

Just saw XDragnoir post. half of what i said is already there sorry about that.

 

[Zensum]

I think you are misunderstanding what we want to add. This is a internal resistance list, she is only resistant when the power is used internally. if a power can be used internally and externally like the bugs and bacteria which are in the kamachi quote in the op. She will only be resistant the the internal application of the power. When you say that it can be used externally too is irrelevant because this is a internal damage resistance list. She will not have resistance to the external applications. I hope that addresses your concerns about powers that can be used as both like air corrosion. When inhaled won't do anything to her and when touching her skin will. Every single resistance we will be adding will work ONLY when a internal effect happens

I'll preface this for both of my posts since this seems to be where our disconnect is happening.
I had a talk with the admin Qawsedf234 too and he says:

1. She'd have resistance to abilities that target her insides. If the abilities don't directly target her insides she can't get a resistance to it.
2. The assumption would be if the power starts on the outside she doesn't resist it. It would have to start on the inside.
3. If the subset powers target internals (Blood Manipulation, Electricity Manipulation, etc) you still wouldn't get the general ability (Vector Manipulation) unless it directly targets internals too.
4. If the item works by targeting the insides, yes. If it's targeting the person conceptually, no.

If there's any more disconnect I'll ask him to post a detailed comment. We're assessing the instances abilities are directed at a body internally in Toaru not hypotheticals. We cant separate a power application from its external context. The passages only refer to bacteria, bugs, gas, curses, etc in your body and causing internal damage. Powers that cause external damage and reach the insides are not applicable. Additionally, we've seen her explicitly take internal damage from external attacks... The actual power has to be a dedicated internal attack, it can't cause external damage that comes from the outside to the inside or target the person as a whole.

Refer above.

Addressed in first comment.

Of course someone has to use a power for her to be resistant. And Kamachi says that maybe Cold Mistress won't work on her and we have 0 proof that it works or that it will cause damage to her instead of just swapping emotions. She just thinks it could affect Alice without ever working right? We know that mental attacks won't work on her except maybe Cold Mistress. Also for Alice when adult we have this:
"The Bologna Succubus’s Cold Mistress spell could replace all pleasure with equal amounts of pain, regardless of the target’s physical toughness and endurance. That attack had made even Christian Rosencreutz grimace, but would it work here? Was this version of Alice in a mental state where she experienced that sort of human emotion?"

Imagine breaker can intercept lots of internal attacks like blood manipulation and things that break joints. It is completely nonrelated to this topic.
Defensive magics could also intercept Gamma knife, don't understand your point.
If everything is fried instantly. Is both internal and external damage attack. and since it starts in your mind i would say it is probably completely internal. Either way she will only be resistant when it affects her internals as i said above. If a rapier that extends is used on Alice with ST then it will work fine. Only a resistance when internal.

Thank you for the quotes btw.

Well no, if Misaki's is reading Alice's mind it means her power is working on her. Misaki just isn't capable of handling what she reads.
The novel says it's the only method with promise of working on Alice many times as stated by Succubus, Aradia, HT, Touma and the narration. The spell doesn't swap emotions, its a type of psychological/neurological ability as it deals in replacing the body's pleasure and pain signals. The point of the spell is that it works on an enemy regardless of physical toughness and endurance and child Alice is highly susceptible to it because of her joyous nature. It doesn't work on adult Alice because of her animalistic state that may not experience pleasure which is different from child Alice. Its a known weakness to the ability that Aradia exploits in GT6. A countermeasure has nothing to do with the internal stuff we're talking about.

Imagine Breaker negates the tripping weapons when his right hand touches them. By defensive magic, I mean a barrier spell that deflects bullets from a tripping handgun in NT18. I'm just outlining that you can externally intercept this spell. A tripping gun is a gun you take damage as if you were shot, it's the same case as the bomb. The only internal part is the foothold his spell has on the mind, but thats not damage. I agree with Radiation Manipulation for the Gamma Knife but not Heat Manipulation.

np.

This is from Accelerator profile. It was deemed internal.

Internal Spell Immunity: In addition, by incorporating his newfound knowledge regarding Magic, Accelerator has developed an immunity to spells that specifically target his inner body, as showcased throughout his battles against Elizard's All-Dimensions Severing spell and Nephthys' water-based moisture-draining technique.

Spoiler: NT22R, C3, P7

That sword was an extreme spiritual item that fully unified the three factions and four regions of the United Kingdom and that could draw on a portion of Archangel Michael’s power while on UK land. If a qualified user released that power even for a moment, a swing of the sword would sever all dimensions at once and giant ruined materials would be created along the line of the slash.

Spoiler: NT22R, C3, P11

Even the course of the physical sword itself was twisted at the moment of impact. However...
“It would seem you cannot prevent the actual omnidimensional slicing.” “Tch.”
The child clicked his tongue at the adult’s comment.
“Curtana Second will take priority over all else and cut through all dimensions as long as it is in this country. I don’t fully understand that reflection of yours, but if I slice through the very coordinates at which the barrier exists, the damage gets through. Isn’t that right?” Elizard flipped the flat-tipped sword around to change her stance. “Knowing you are not untouchable is enough for me. ...Now it comes down to whether or not I can focus on finding an opportunity.”
With the sound of something slicing through the air, Elizard disappeared.
Accelerator did not even turn his head.
He took a casual step back just before the giant guillotine of omnidimensional slicing swung down at him from the side. It grazed the tip of his nose, but he was not the type to let anything show on his face.
“I doubt you’re just swinging that thing around at random.”

Here's the quotes, Accelerator can't actually prevent the omnidimensional slicing effect as I said. In Alice's case, Curtana has to physically slice at that coordinate to get damage through his reflection so it's not really applicable here. The Dimensional severing isn't remotely spawning inside him or anything. And I think your misinterpreting that, IIRC the CRT that added that wasn't saying the severing spell was an internal attack, it was trying to say she can't direct the slicing effect on the sword swing inside his body. Not that I necessarily agree, but that was the stance.

Yes it is indexed as that. It clearly did not affect their exterior but is working despite no external seeming effect. Good enough for me.

Hmm... I must be blind, I don't see Statistics Manipulation on Zombie's profile's P&A section, but regardless it had to affect the exterior as they aren't infinite size anymore and we don't know how she applied the spell in them so we can't say for sure.

It doesn't matter where it start. What matters is what is affected. The bugs and bacteria we know she is inmune didn't spawn inside her. They go in and do the thing.
Same thing with her curse or Soul resistance. The attack is made from someone external but it is irrelevant. The effect will only be internal. Of course it will work on her skin in this case as i said above. This is just when inside her body.

Addressed in first comment.
Nothing is stated about bugs and bacteria from an attack perspective other than their internal damage. If someone were to use a direct internal bug or bacteria ability on her she would be resistant. If it were an attack that burrowed into her she wouldn't be resistant.

Using mental out is not "damage" it would have messed Misaki anyways.

Yeah that's my point, mind reading isn't doing damage. I only bring Misaki up to support mind manipulation resistance being dubious.

Completely disagree, if we decide that she is not resistant to phase manipulation. Then Reality warping will not be in her profile despite being clearly internal in some uses. She should have resistance to internal reality warping now because then maybe it won't be added if the other revision is rejected and it will make no sense. Phase manipulation has powers we are already adding as resistance, why not this one?

Alright then what about the Ars Magna reality warping, which distorts the world itself targets the internal body?

If you agreed that stopping someone's heart with dainsleif is indeed internal damage. How is stopping every organ of Alice not? it is the same thing.

Fear hax causes the body to stop the heart. It specifically targets an internal organ. Pretty straight forward.
Ars Magna isn't targeting inside the body nor is it a hax that specifically stops the organs. The world is being distorted and the person is warped to dying.

Only when internal. Refer above.

Addressed in first comment.
Vector Manipulation is broadly an external tactile ability.

Imagine Breaker and other things have nothing to do with this. Still can deflect internal damage.
Refer above for ST.

Addressed in the Spiritual Tripping comment.

This is on edge for me as said above. I think it won't work never or ALMOST never. Not sure if Cold Mistress is a exception, other forms of mind control and maybe that one too trap the user with no effect.

Addressed in the Cold Mistress comment.
The novel says its the only transcendent ability that will work on her under the right conditions on many occasions because it takes advantage of her nature, not because the Bologna Succubus is special or an exception in any way.

Yes teleporting a metal rod inside Alice's head will clearly do internal damage. It doesn't happen or she doesn't takes damage. We don't know how it works in this case but we know it won't work.

I agree we don't know how it will function so I'll let supporters on thread decide here.

Transmuting internal organs is very internal damage. Acceleretor matter manipulation can start inside someone too as we know with last order. Kakine can also make intangible matter so that it starts inside. Kakine having dark matter in his wings has nothing to do with changing Alice organs for sand.

Kakine's transmutation needs dark matter to make contact with the body/he can't just spawn it inside of you. However, I think I'm alright with Transmutation resistance because like you said he's using phasing in tandem with transmutation in the manga.
The Last Order feat isn't matter manipulation at all, but I see it's listed as such on the profile (it must be an ancient edit) so I'll agree with this for now.

Has nothing to do with the effect. Soul manipulation starts with a magician casting outside.

Addressed in first comment.
The attack is the sound. Without it nothing would shake and nothing would turn to dust.
Soul manipulation from looking at a grimoire causes direct psychological damage, unless you're talking about another spell?

Just saw XDragnoir post. half of what i said is already there sorry about that.

Yeah I put a line division in between my responses to you both so you know who I'm responding too. Idk if you meant to respond to my posts to XDragnoir or not.

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Which is exactly what we are going to do, we're giving her general resistance to vector hax because any internal application of vector hax would fall in the internal damage category. Side note, Accel has a more direct version of matter manipulation such as what he did to Last Order's brain, so Matter hax would be included in her resistances alongside whatever else Accel can do internally.

Addressed in first comment to Felience1.
Accelerator's ability to control all vectors he's touching is tactile and external body wise. His applications are if he chooses for to be internal and thats why those are resisted.
Thats not matter manipulation. Accelerator's method of manipulating the mind with Last Order was by altering the vector of the brain's bioelectrical pulses, flipping the signals in correlation to her personality code he had to memorize, simulating a Testament. Its just another form of bioelectricty manipulation. Theres no mention of any election rearrangement in that novel as that makes no sense. Either an ancient addition or a CRT I didn't see. Since it's on the profile I'll accept Matter Manipualtion for now.

She wouldn't resist the explosion, that's an AP related thing, she would resist the radiation and the heat, both which affect their targets internally.

Addressed in first comment to Felience1.
I agree with Radiation Manipulation from Gamma Knife, but it doesn't make sense for BBB as it's not an ability that "targets the internals". It simulates a fictional bomb that would annihilates the entire body at once, inners and all, like an explosion would. So disagree with Heat Manipulation.

That has nothing to do with this, the corrosion itself happens internally, this is no different from the direct examples we get with bugs and bacteria (I think viruses were also directly named at some point, not sure tho).

To simplify, if we were judging it based on the source effectively everything comes from the outside, what matters is it affecting the internals as directly as bugs, a bacteria or poison would (as these are the examples the series gave) and the 3 are external from their creation and only affect your aside as a side effect of their actions (bugs specifically do macro scale damage which results on internal damage).

Addressed in first comment to Felience1.
The corrosion has to corrode your outside to get inside. Bugs, bacteria, poison and whatever else don't have to damage you externally to get inside you, and the statement only predicates these examples with "her body is immune to the internal damage", anything else is conjecture. We've seen what happens to her when damaged externally and the novel says her skin couldn't deflect the macroscopic external damage of the cricket bugs like you say, but if they can eat into her they'd be doing internal damage too.

That depends, for example, would you say in a vs thread that Alice resists Blood Magic? (Blood Magic that does exactly what Accelerator can do with blood, no more, no less), if you say yes, I'd say we don't index Vector Hax and only index the resistances she gets from Vector Hax applications, if you think she wouldn't resist it, we have to index Vector to make it clear what exactly is the specific source of her resistances.

Also, given Accel's Wings give him the ranged vector control which allows him to just tear his targets body with just vector control, I'd say vector manipulation itself would have to be resisted.

I would say she would resist that blood magic.
If there is an instance of remote vector directly targeting inside the body I would agree, but I don't think there is.

Read again what I said, the damage is imaginary and becomes real as it happens and I am pretty sure it can only be interacted with by its target, mainly because BBB doesn't damage even close buildings.

Already explained why she would resist the radiation and the heat above.

The damage can't be imaginary as that would mean they aren't being damaged, the mental images of weapons are, the damage is physical. BBB was specifically limited to his targets even though others could see it, but the tripping weapons can be intercepted by defensive magic like when Tsuchimikado put up a barrier to deflect a tripping bullet.

Addressed in first comment to Felience1.

Which isn't part of the spell, it's the side effect of being affected by something that, by itself, isn't harmful.

For comparison, erasing someone consciousness is the hax, they being in a catatonic state is the consequence of the hax, not part of it.

True, pain is the spell, but the distinction is Alice would be effected by this internal duress from that psychological/neurological effect, which is why it's the only power with promise in stopping her in her tracks... Unless you believe the spell stops her by causing nothing to happen.

As you said, Teleporters in Toaru delete matter when there's overlapping (Kuroko does this often) or when the teleportation fails (Kamino), whatever happens to other teleported objects would depend on the verse.

Only what happen in Toaru is pertinent here, and this doesn't address my question. Is Alice deleted when her space is replaced or not? I say we can't know how it would happen so I'll leave it up to the supporters to decide.

First, what does swinging the sword or not have to do with this? 2nd, Curtana can be spawned wherever the user chooses (limited to a certain area obviously) such as what's explained that Elizard did against Accelerator (spawn it at the coordinates of his barrier).

Curtana's severing has never spawned beyond the line of the slash, outside of that omnidirectional explosion. Elizard was physically slicing and she was saying she needed to slice on the coordinates of his shield to get past reflection thats why she needed to get her timing right. She was not remotely spawning anything inside Accelerator...

Read everything I said above, Kakine's transmutation is literally a cellular level process, like, honestly I don't even get what's your criteria but it's clearly wrong, the Wing hitting you is no different from Accelerator having to touch you to redirect your blood (which you agreed with), both are equally dodgeable.

After further inspection, I'm alright with Transmutation resistance now because it seems phasing is used in the instance we're assessing.

The difference for illustrative purpose (my previous stance on DM):
Dark Matter wing slices through the body and dismantles it on the cellular level when it makes contact, it's not specifically targeting organs inside of the body.
Accelerator makes contact with the bodies surface and then internally targets the bloodstream specifically.

First, it's the same as above, 2nd, the corrosion would damage her internals, so it clearly has to be resisted, otherwise the statement gets contradicted.

Again, I've no idea why you're interpreting this as "attacks that start inside AND only attacks that are limited to the insides" instead of what the quote actually says, which is anything that causes internal damage, with the only exclusion being physical attacks such as punches, blades and whatever. Why are we wasting time discussing what is internal damage?

Addressed in first comment to Felience1.
We've seen she can take internal damage as when her skull and brains were destroyed by an external attack. Why make that distinction for physical attacks such as punches, blades etc when that is not present in the text. Those things do cause internal damage.

Same as above.

Addressed in first comment to Felience1. (Hliðskjálf)

Same as above.

Addressed in first comment to Felience1. (Nephthys' Shrill Cry)

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Last post for bit, I'll let more people chime in.

 

[XDragnoir]

I'll preface this for both of my posts since this seems to be where our disconnect is happening.
I had a talk with the admin Qawsedf234 too and he says:

1. She'd have resistance to abilities that target her insides. If the abilities don't directly target her insides she can't get a resistance to it.
2. The assumption would be if the power starts on the outside she doesn't resist it. It would have to start on the inside.
3. If the subset powers target internals (Blood Manipulation, Electricity Manipulation, etc) you still wouldn't get the general ability (Vector Manipulation) unless it directly targets internals too.
4. If the item works by targeting the insides, yes. If it's targeting the person conceptually, no.

The quote never said anything about the effect starting in the inside so that's completely made up and the examples given are literally things that start in the outside (bacteria, poison and bugs) and have some internal consequence after they enter the system (diseases and/or poisoning) but they don't start inside of you.

If there's any more disconnect I'll ask him to post a detailed comment. We're assessing the instances abilities are directed at a body internally in Toaru not hypotheticals. We cant separate a power application from its external context.

Literally absolutely anything comes from the outside from the sheer fact it's someone else doing it towards Alice, be it a bug biting her, an esper using Mana to cast an internal spell or an esper using their personal reality to warp her insides.

The passages only refer to bacteria, bugs, gas, curses, etc in your body and causing internal damage. Powers that cause external damage and reach the insides are not applicable. Additionally, we've seen her explicitly take internal damage from external attacks... The actual power has to be a dedicated internal attack, it can't cause external damage that comes from the outside to the inside or target the person as a whole.

Internal damage is clearly being used in reference to dura neg, it's just not a vs debating accurate term, but the examples (even the comparison of a vulture eating corpses) clearly point that it doesn't matter where the dura neg starts, only that at some point it will enter her body and mess up her insides (which is the part she resists).

The external damage the quote talks about is, as we saw with CRC and how the quote talks about her Hedgehogs and the Flamingo Bat, the physical damage that is targeted at her, not special side effects, those are accounted for on the first half.

 

[Accelerate420]

Not really a CRT, just a discussion thread to find out which resistances are to be listed as "possible resistance" in Alice's profile (but since it's in theory about adding content, I am creating it in the CRT subforum).

It was accepted in a CRT and it's based on this:

"Also, her body was immune to bacteria, bugs, curses, and all other forms of internal damage, both scientific and magical. As for external damage, she would always remain unscathed thanks to the hedgehogs and flamingo protecting her."

So we've to find out which forms of internal damage have been used in the series before this statement from GT7 and I will list them in the OP so that we can add to a separate tab in her P&A later.

Abilities so far:

1. Vector, Blood and Bioelectricity Manipulation (from Accelerator)

Note: her resistance to Phase Manipulation shouldn't be discussed here.

I think we're mistreating the context of the quote and the analogy attached to it, quote ;

Tens of thousands of bugs apparently wasn’t enough for her to feel repulsed or disgusted. She had used the bat and balls before. Poison gas, curses, and other forms of internal damage never seemed to affect her. (It almost felt like trying to drown a fish in water.)

It's an analogy for internal based abilities, but not abilities used internally.
The key difference being is the difference between swallowing venom and injecting it into your blood stream, except it's the reverse.
Alice could get sick and die if venom was pumped into her stomach, but if she took it into her bloodstream she'd be fine.
For the most part, what I'm saying is that something that applies itself more on the biology of her body starting from there for internal factors (like trying to poison her) make her immune, but that doesn't mean an ability that CAN be used internally is something she's resistant too internally.

If that's still confusing, I'll propose it like this ;

Remove 'Vector manipulation' from the abilities, as Vector manipulation is a broad, vague definition of his abilities. He has loads of other means to damage her internally than through blood or bioelectricity. As an example, transferring kinetic energy's impact from her stomach directly into her gut. She can't internally protect herself from that as it's a macroscale pushed into a micro-event, supported here ;

But her soft skin could not deflect the macroscopic external damage of the crickets.

The discrepancy is that we're applying a macro event of Accelerator's abilities as a micro inside her, when really it should just be secluded ONLY to events happening inside her on the micro.
So something like manipulating her blood with vectors may be something she's (possibly) immune too, but not vector control entirely as there's plenty of other means to damage her properly without relying on those methods (such as brain shutdowns, nervous system collapses, stealing kinetic energy, etc, etc.)

Now, having said that, what does that mean she MIGHT be resistant too? Well, if what I'm imposing is to be believed, which is 'events that only target her internals on a micro scale' such as things like curses which are known to carry disease through magic which affect one internally, bugs (like parasites) and poisons, we should start by examining first abilities designed to destroy the interior of the body first from the scientific side, and then look at the magic side.

tl;dr ; i disagree with the logic the thread is going and agree with zensum, but there's probably a good way to more accurately go about this. Assuming all damage science and magical as long as it hits her internally feels like a reach over what the analogy is trying to say, which is closer too something like poisoning than, I don't know, spawning a knife her in gut and it not working. I'm pretty sure she's not immune to teleportation considering teleportation isn't 'damage' but 'the transference of something to a location'. And it's not like she has some dimensional space in her gut, if you transport something big enough...it's going to make her burst.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Yeah, I've to agree with what Accelerate420 and Zensum had said.

I do also wanna add that... shouldn't we also have to consider that Touma is the one who said that statement, more or less? I am not discrediting him, moreso, I wanna point out that Touma has no idea to full extent to the "other forms of internal damage" that the verse has to offer since he is a Level 0 Esper w/o any formal knowhow of magic.

If you wanna know my opinion, I think the safest option is to just give Alice resistance to poison and curses and leave it at that. Or if you still wanna go further, I would suggest to limit things to abilities that cause a form of internal damage that Touma has seen.

 

[XDragnoir]

It's an analogy for internal based abilities, but not abilities used internally.
The key difference being is the difference between swallowing venom and injecting it into your blood stream, except it's the reverse.
Alice could get sick and die if venom was pumped into her stomach, but if she took it into her bloodstream she'd be fine.
For the most part, what I'm saying is that something that applies itself more on the biology of her body starting from there for internal factors (like trying to poison her) make her immune, but that doesn't mean an ability that CAN be used internally is something she's resistant too internally.

I'd say the line you're trying to make to split "internal based" and "used internally" is pretty blurry given she resisted Frillsand's curse which I wouldn't say is internal based, just a subset of her electric-ghost powers that messes with the internals of those who look at her or hear her voice.

Not just Frillsand, but curses in general (which is what Alice was stated to resist, not x, y or z curses) aren't internal based, they just target the internals.

Remove 'Vector manipulation' from the abilities, as Vector manipulation is a broad, vague definition of his abilities. He has loads of other means to damage her internally than through blood or bioelectricity. As an example, transferring kinetic energy's impact from her stomach directly into her gut. She can't internally protect herself from that as it's a macroscale pushed into a micro-event, supported here ;

I am not saying she can resist any application of Vector manipulation, she wouldn't resist Accel lifting her from the floor or something non-harmful like that, but I don't see how internal damage like what he did to Kakine when tearing his hand would work on Alice, that's internal damage, not external damage.

She can't internally protect herself from that as it's a macroscale pushed into a micro-event, supported here

How does an attack that was solely in the macroscale support that a microscale attack would bypass her resistance? This example you brought up is completely different from the situation you were arguing, were something macro is manipulated and directed to a microscale.

So something like manipulating her blood with vectors may be something she's (possibly) immune too, but not vector control entirely as there's plenty of other means to damage her properly without relying on those methods (such as brain shutdowns, nervous system collapses, stealing kinetic energy, etc, etc.)

She would only resist those that are harmful, in your examples stealing kinetic isn't harmful.

Now, having said that, what does that mean she MIGHT be resistant too? Well, if what I'm imposing is to be believed, which is 'events that only target her internals on a micro scale' such as things like curses which are known to carry disease through magic which affect one internally, bugs (like parasites) and poisons, we should start by examining first abilities designed to destroy the interior of the body first from the scientific side, and then look at the magic side.

Where are we even drawing the line for what's micro what's macro? Vector manipulation is micro or macro depending on the target, blood isn't micro, you seem to agree more with her resisting blood hax than vector hax.

Since you said you agreed with Zensum, Corrosion is a microscale thing and Zensum disagrees with Alice resisting it, so clearly there isn't a consensus here on what exactly is the criteria for her resistances.

Not like the criteria of macro or micro is even there to begin with as it's not even stated anywhere that she can only resist microscale stuff. A super small needle would still be external damage meanwhile an internal explosion would still be internal damage, those are the only criteria the novel actually uses to explain what she can or can't resist.

Assuming all damage science and magical as long as it hits her internally feels like a reach over what the analogy is trying to say, which is closer too something like poisoning than, I don't know, spawning a knife her in gut and it not working.

It's not a reach, it's literally what the text says.

I'm pretty sure she's not immune to teleportation considering teleportation isn't 'damage' but 'the transference of something to a location'. And it's not like she has some dimensional space in her gut, if you transport something big enough...it's going to make her burst.

Teleporting something inside someone causes damage to them, especially because you seem to be forgetting that teleportation in Toaru deletes the matter that was formerly in that space so it wouldn't make her burst to begin with.

 

[XDragnoir]

Yeah, I've to agree with what Accelerate420 and Zensum had said.

I do also wanna add that... shouldn't we also have to consider that Touma is the one who said that statement, more or less? I am not discrediting him, moreso, I wanna point out that Touma has no idea to full extent to the "other forms of internal damage" that the verse has to offer since he is a Level 0 Esper w/o any formal knowhow of magic.

If you wanna know my opinion, I think the safest option is to just give Alice resistance to poison and curses and leave it at that. Or if you still wanna go further, I would suggest to limit things to abilities that cause a form of internal damage that Touma has seen.

I think only the vulture one came from Touma? The others come from the narration, not Touma.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

bump

 

[Felience1]

bump

 

[Felience1]

bump

 

[Felience1]

bumpiest bump

 

[Felience1]

bump

 

[Axscell]

She doesn't have immunity to anything, immunity is another thing altogether here in the wiki and Alice doesn't have it. She has resistance to any form of vector control that's used to cause internal damage, not to any of the external ones and as Felience pointed out, her resistance clearly applies to things like bugs which aren't exclusively internal

Isn't the way her resistance to internal damage described in the LN literally the same description as the very criterion for granting immunity on this site?

This time, no cricket bat or hedgehog balls emerged from below her apron. This was a formless curse, after all. But Alice was still entirely unaffected by the invisible attack.

Was she built differently from the others on the inside?

Was this like how carbon monoxide was deadly to humans but harmless to insects because their blood was different? This didn’t seem like she simply didn’t feel any pain because she was that much stronger than the average person. It was a lot more like the conditions of the attack didn’t apply to her in the first place. Kamijou even had a meaningless fantasy about someone continually giving animal carcasses to a vulture in the hopes of giving it food poisoning.

Which was more unnatural here: Frillsand #G for causing fatal wounds without laying a finger on anyone or Alice for being exposed to that and smiling like it was nothing?

i.e that she's built different on the inside, and that the internal components that are usually targeted when dealing internal damage are completely alien within her or not even present. The text literally goes out of it's way to point out that she's not resisting anything (no fighting back/struggle on her part) via being significantly stronger, instead that she's essentially just bypassing the effect altogether. Idk, this really just seems like textbook immunity to me.

 

[Felience1]

@Axscell
What do you think counts as internal damage? That is the main disagreement everyone has in this thread.

 

[Felience1]

Isn't the way her resistance to internal damage described in the LN literally the same description as the very criterion for granting immunity on this site?



i.e that she's built different on the inside, and that the internal components that are usually targeted when dealing internal damage are completely alien within her or not even present. The text literally goes out of it's way to point out that she's not resisting anything (no fighting back/struggle on her part) via being significantly stronger, instead that she's essentially just bypassing the effect altogether. Idk, this really just seems like textbook immunity to me.

I think that is a topic for another CRT. We should focus in adding what she resist and then changing how we call it is a simple matter. If we start adding things this won't ever end. Do you all think this is the best approach?

 

[XDragnoir]

Isn't the way her resistance to internal damage described in the LN literally the same description as the very criterion for granting immunity on this site?



i.e that she's built different on the inside, and that the internal components that are usually targeted when dealing internal damage are completely alien within her or not even present. The text literally goes out of it's way to point out that she's not resisting anything (no fighting back/struggle on her part) via being significantly stronger, instead that she's essentially just bypassing the effect altogether. Idk, this really just seems like textbook immunity to me.

No, the text is using similes, "It was a lot more like" not that she literally has nothing inside.

And I've no idea what the fighting back/struggles part has to do with Immunity nor where you even got that idea from the text, nor does ot say that she isn't resisting it, wtf? It says that she isn't simply tolerating/ignoring the pain from the effects more than normal people, not that she doesn't have resistance.

Honestly, I don't care enough about this to keep debating, add whatever y'all agree she resists and **** the rest.

 

[Felience1]

I decided to make a vote count to help end this thread please let me know if anything is wrong. The not agreed powers are no longer present.

Accelerate420 agrees with Zensum but didn't get in to specifics so i will leave this here so people are aware of that.

Curse Manipulation, bacteria and bugs since is in the quote and everyone agrees.

Only agree Resistances:

Poison Manipulation
Blood Manipulation from accelerator (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Accelerate420, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First Blood, Axscell and Zensum)
Bioelectricity Manipulation from accelerator (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Accelerate420, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First, Axscell and Zensum)
Radiation Manipulation from Aleister (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka and Zensum, FantaRin_The_First, Axscell)
Mind Manipulation from Grimoires (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka and Zensum, FantaRin_The_First, Axscell)
Probability Manipulation from Aleister ST (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First)
Powernull from Kazakiri (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First, Axscell)
Biological Manipulation from Misaki or Alfar (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First, Axscell)
Life Force Destruction from Coronzon roar or Aradia who can manipulate life too. (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First, Axscell)
Water Manipulation via moisture absorption of Nepthys. (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First, Axscell)
Pain Manipulation from fiamma, it comes from grimoire, Stiyl has it too. Unreapaddy has Pashupata spell too. (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First, Axscell)
Paralysis Inducement from misaka or Niang-Niang shadow blades. (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First, Axscell)
Possession from Aiwass or Elza. (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First, Axscell)
Acid Manipulation via Acid (random esper), if breathed it damages lungs. (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First, Axscell)
Perception Manipulation from Loki. (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First, Axscell)


0 Disagrees Resistances:

Soul Manipulation from Aleister or High Priest (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First and Zensum Neutral: Axscell)
Transmutation from Kakine (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First and Zensum Neutral: Axscell)
Matter Manipulation from Kakine (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First and Zensum)
Matter Absorption from Kakine (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First)
Deconstruction from Fiamma or Etzali (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First)
Stamina Reduction from flame dragon. (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First)
Sealing from Fiamma. (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First)
Body Puppetry from Qliphah. (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First)
Microwave Attacks from fran. (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First)
Teleportation from sources like Kuroko (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First, Axscell Neutral: Zensum)
Sin manipulation from Coronzon. (Agree: Felience1, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, Neutral: XDragnoir, FantaRin_The_First, Axscell)


1 Disagree Resistances:

Illusion Manipulation with Spiritual Tripping (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First Neutral: Axscell Disagree: Zensum)
Madness Manipulation (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First Neutral: Axscell Disagree: Zensum)
Electricity Manipulation and EM waves from Misaka (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First and Zensum Disagree: Axscell)
Fear Manipulation from Dainsleif (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka and Zensum, FantaRin_The_First Disagree: Axscell)
Probability Manipulation from Aleister ST (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First Disagree: Axscell)
Law Manipulation from Accelerator (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First Disagree: Axscell)
Gravity Manipulation from Aureolus. (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First Disagree: Axscell)
Conceptual Manipulation from Archetype Controller. (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First Disagree: Axscell)
Sound manipulation from four eyed dragon or Aureolus. (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First Disagree: Axscell)
Existence Erasure from Coronzon's ceremony. (Agree: Felience1, Acertainbcplayer, XDragnoir, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First Disagree: Axscell)
Darkness Manipulation from Niang-Niang shadow blades. (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First Disagree: Axscell)
Information Manipulation from Uiharu or Kreutune. (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First Disagree: Axscell)
Telekinesis via Qiong Qi. (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First Disagree: Axscell)
Explosion Manipulation and Shockwave Manipulation from Ollerus (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First Disagree: Zensum)
Vibration Manipulation from Nepthys (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First Neutral: Axscell Disagree: Zensum)
Empathic Manipulation from Nepthys (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First Neutral: Axscell Disagree: Zensum)
Memory Manipulation from Aureolus (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First, Axscell Disagree: Zensum)


Several agrees and disagrees Resistances:

Vector Manipulation from accelerator (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First Disagree: Axscell and Accelerate420)
Space Manipulation with Curtana (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First Disagree: Axscell and Zensum)
Reality Warping from Aureolus (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First Disagree: Axscell and Zensum)
Sleep Manipulation from Aureolus (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First Disagree: Axscell and Zensum)
Death Manipulation from Aureolus (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First Disagree: Axscell and Zensum)
Heat Manipulation from Aleister (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka, FantaRin_The_First Disagree: Axscell and Zensum)
Corrosion inducement from Coronzon (Agree: Felience1, XDragnoir, Acertainbcplayer, FantaRin_The_First Neutral: Axscell Disagree: Zensum, Aseka)


Edit day 3/10:
I discarded a few since there were no positive input.
Well that's all of them. I will be updating the votes and i greatly appreciate everyone input on this. Hopefully we can finish this instead of leaving the thread to die.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

I agree with Felience.

 

[Aseka]

Seems fine with the conclusions so far.

 

[Felience1]

Seems fine with the conclusions so far.

With what categories do you agree? If you could tell me it would be helpful i don't know with how many of the 4 you are fine with.

 

[Aseka]

With what categories do you agree? If you could tell me it would be helpful i don't know with how many of the 4 you are fine with.

Agree to all except Weight Manip from Aleister and Stats Reduction

 

[XDragnoir]

Life Force Destruction from Coronzon roar or Aradia who can manipulate life too. (Agree: Felience1, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka)
Water Manipulation via moisture absorption of Nepthys. (Agree: Felience1, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka)
Gravity Manipulation from Aureolus. (Agree: Felience1, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka)
Sound manipulation from four eyed dragon or Aureolus. (Agree: Felience1, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka)
Stamina Reduction from flame dragon. (Agree: Felience1, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka)
Sealing from Fiamma. (Agree: Felience1, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka)
Pain Manipulation from fiamma, it comes from grimoire, Stiyl has it too. Unreapaddy has Pashupata spell too. (Agree: Felience1, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka)
Sin manipulation from Coronzon. (Agree: Felience1, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka)
Existence Erasure from Coronzon's ceremony. (Agree: Felience1, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka)
Paralysis Inducement from misaka or Niang-Niang shadow blades. (Agree: Felience1, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka)
Darkness Manipulation from Niang-Niang shadow blades. (Agree: Felience1, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka)
Information Manipulation from Kreutune. (Agree: Felience1, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka)
Acid Manipulation via Acid (random esper), if breathed it damages lungs. (Agree: Felience1, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka)
Telekinesis via Qiong Qi. (Agree: Felience1, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka)
Body Puppetry from Qliphah. (Agree: Felience1, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka)
Microwave Attacks from fran. (Agree: Felience1, Acertainbcplayer, Aseka)

Agree with all of the above (not so sure about Sin).