Toaru: 6B Clarification and Reupdate

[XDragnoir]

To begin with, this CRT is based on things that were accepted in the last CRT for Mid/High tiers with most of the profiles already having been upgraded accordingly, so the calcs and most things things have already been discussed and accepted.

Why am I creating it? Well, I am not really sure, I guess DT may disagree with one or two things so he wanted a new thread to discuss it, who knows.

Clarifications:
This here is the calc that gives 6B

Only the 6B part scales to Gabriel as the H6A part is more of a chain reaction thing rather than anything else. Further more, that attack was performed by what we call on the wiki "Pure Archangel" Gabriel:

The "problem" that needs to be clarified is that this "version" is never stated to be any stronger and even if it is, the 6B feat was performed in a weakened state when compared to the "WW3" version, which many characters fought:

"Fiamma of the right smiled. The amount of Telesma Acqua of the Back had absorbed was only about 50% of that of the Power of God. As he had foreseen, it was not enough to stop Misha Kreutzev." OT21, Ch8, Part 7

To explain the chain of events: WW3 Gabriel fights with everyone > Acqua absorbs 50% of Gabriel's Telesma > the world's elements are restored > Pure Archangel Gabriel absorbs water to recover the 50% of power lost, causing the 6B feat.

Pretty simple, the feat is equal to 50% of Gabriel's power, which means that the value the characters should scale is actually 2x the above feat as they scale to 100% Gabriel, in sum, there's no problem at all.

UPDATES:
There are a few profiles that were not upgraded: Aleister, Accelerator, Kakine, Rensa:

Aleister:

1st key will lose its 6C rating and that's it, his first key simply shouldn't have it as absolutely none of his spells in base scale to this tier.

2nd key should be 6B for fighting Kanzaki and Knight Leader at the same time, a part of the fight is already linked in his profile so I will just leave this key as it's pretty straight forward.

3rd key is the... ehhh, it should be 5B physically for its feats against Coronzon and Mathers, but I really don't care enough to argue it right now, so just leave it as 6B physically as it's stronger than the previous one.

Accelerator:

Accel's third key fought Gabriel and Kazakiri, so his Vector Change stat should be 6B:

"The angel had an almost human-like expression of surprise, and in this instant Accelerator took away the vectors from the angel’s attack. Gathering the vectors, Accelerator launched a merciless strike straight at the chest of the glasses-wearing angel.
The sound vanished.
The seemingly weightless flying angel was knocked back 300 meters. Like a crashing airplane, she tumbled towards the ground in an almost comical fashion." OT21, Chapter 8, Part 7 (yes, it coincidentally happens in the same part as the 50% thing at the start).

Kakine, Beetle 05 and Rensa:

I am not sure where exactly these 3 (Beetle and Kakine are the same key but they're different characters, that's why I am making the distinction here) should scale, it depends a lot on which Accel would Rensa scale to, which I am not sure of rn, that as well as the fact Accel's keys are really arbitrary rn, they were created to prevent some characters (like Kakine himself) from scaling to saint tier back in the day, so they're not actually based on power ups or actual changes in power, but instead are based on "this one is a new key to not upgrade who he fought before".

MISCELLANEOUS:

Acqua scales to 2x normal Saints in his 1st key, that was also agreed in the original thread, but here is the quote again:

"Thus, there was a limit to using the power created through the Idol Theory with their own willpower.
However, this wasn’t completely bad. If Saints could use such power at 100%, the high pressure would cause the Saint’s body to self-destruct. This was more of a self-defense instinct than magic, since when they were babies, they controlled that power without knowing anything about magic.
However,
(…Acqua, he doesn’t have the limit of being...a Saint…?…That power…has it already overcome what…a human can already control…?)
Needless to say, besides being a Saint, Acqua had the power of God’s Right Seat. The reason for him to be called Acqua of the Back was because he had the element of the Archangel Power of God. Normally, one would think that it was just a natural addition of power, but in reality, this increased power doubled the burden on him.
Yes.
What was amazing was that Acqua had already controlled 200% of that power and still hadn’t gone amok, his facial expression not changing at all." OT16, Chapter 4, Part 2

Indeed, it's technically more than 2x as he has 200% compared to normal Saints who die if they use 100%, but there's no real way to know how much they use AFAIK (could be anything from 1-99, so it's better to lowball to a simple 2x).

 

[GunTish]

Fiamma says that the Distortion of the Element made his fire weaker than it was supposed to be. Wouldn't the same apply to Gabriel, as she represents water? So Gabriel after the elements were fixed would indeed be stronger than before.

Js06

In other words, my fire has always held the requirements needed to control all four elements. By controlling all four, I should gain a vast amount of power. …But that is all if the distortion in the lineup of the world’s elements did not exist.”

Yen Press

In other words, the ability to control all four aspects rested within my fire from the beginning. I should have gained magnificent power by controlling them all... If only a distortion hadn't existed in those aspects world-wide.

OT21 Chapter 8 Part 9

 

[Churronzon]

"The angel had an almost human-like expression of surprise, and in this instant Accelerator took away the vectors from the angel’s attack. Gathering the vectors, Accelerator launched a merciless strike straight at the chest of the glasses-wearing angel.

Not sure if it matters, but p sure this scan's using the wrong translation. He attacked Gabriel, not Kazakiri since the former was harder to filter out and whatnot.

In the other TL, Kazakiri started talking to Accelerator even after supposedly being knocked away 300 meters.
Surely Yen Press would never have faulty translations...

---

Edit:
As for Rensa scaling, she'd either scale to the seemingly arbitrary time frame of the "Post-Aiwass" key or else she'd be able to damage Nephthys if she knows the same techniques as Accel. I personally don't care which happens. Maybe Accel's AP shouldn't even have a set value, and just lean more into his "Varies, up to" kind of rating. Even in the scan you used for damaging Gabriel/Kazakiri, he was seen leeching "vectors" to do so. Would have to think on it more.

 

[XDragnoir]

Not sure if it matters, but p sure this scan's using the wrong translation. He attacked Gabriel, not Kazakiri since the former was harder to filter out and whatnot.

It doesn't really matter as both Kazakiri and Gabriel are 6B., but thanks.

As for Rensa scaling, she'd either scale to the seemingly arbitrary time frame of the "Post-Aiwass" key or else she'd be able to damage Nephthys if she knows the same techniques as Accel. I personally don't care which happens. Maybe Accel's AP shouldn't even have a set value, and just lean more into his "Varies, up to" kind of rating. Even in the scan you used for damaging Gabriel/Kazakiri, he was seen leeching "vectors" to do so. Would have to think on it more.

The problem is that it's not really a varies, just an inconsistent power, the attack using vectors gathered from a 6B angel should be stronger than an attack using a normal drop of water, but the latter was actually able to hurt a 5B? Kamachi simply has no consistency in this regard.

Fiamma says that the Distortion of the Element made his fire weaker than it was supposed to be. Wouldn't the same apply to Gabriel, as she represents water? So Gabriel after the elements were fixed would indeed be stronger than before.

Js06

Yen Press

OT21 Chapter 8 Part 9

First, he only says he will get stronger because he is specifically able to control the 4, he said nothing about the distortion weakening them individually in those quotes.

And regardless of that, I already addressed the case of "Pure Archangel" being stronger than "WW3" that that doesn't really change anything.

 

[KingTempest]

The OP looks good to me, although I'm not super knowledgeable bout the verse

 

[Aseka]

Didn't have a knowledge about calcs, I am following.

 

[XDragnoir]

The OP looks good to me, although I'm not super knowledgeable bout the verse

Could you tag @EliminatorVenom and @Qawsedf234 ? I remember they were in the last Toaru thread so it would be good to have their opinion (there were others too but this is pretty short so no need for so many people I think)

 

[KingTempest]

Could you tag @EliminatorVenom and @Qawsedf234 ? I remember they were in the last Toaru thread so it would be good to have their opinion (there were others too but this is pretty short so no need for so many people I think)

@EliminatorVenom @Qawsedf234

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Kakine, Beetle 05 and Rensa:

Oh, sweet, my calcs, lel.

Hmm... To solve the issue with Beetle 05, Kakine and Rensa... Why don't we merge Accelerator's Post-Aiwass key into Accelerator's Post-Headshot key?

As stated in OP, [Accel's keys are really arbitrary rn, they were created to prevent some characters (like Kakine himself) from scaling to saint tier back in the day, so they're not actually based on power ups or actual changes in power, but instead are based on "this one is a new key to not upgrade who he fought before".], but there is a fix to this.

Misaka. And her fight with Brunhild... for non-toaru folks. Former is a char who the aforementioned characters that are bolded scales above. Latter is a 6-B char.

Spoiler: Misaka & Brunhild

Brunhild as hostile towards Misaka even prior to their fight

Her name was Brunhild Eiktobel.

Without even trying to hide her killer intent or aggression, the blonde-haired, blue-eyed woman asked a question in a flat voice.

“Are you my enemy?”

“It’s kind of hard to say.” - TAMI NT Chapter 7 Part 3

Brunhild immediately attempted to go for the kill

By laying the blade flat, she could use it like a giant fan made of steel.

An overwhelmingly violent fan that used the massive shockwave created when an object moved at supersonic speeds.

That would end it.

Not only would it crush the girl’s fat and muscles from the outside, but her eardrums, lungs, and trachea would rupture from within. - TAMI NT Chapter 7 Part 7

Misaka could stop Brunhild's blade for a moment, harm her with eletrcity, perform an attack that was considered by the narration as a deadly body blow and forced the latter to defend herself and then enter into a struggle with her

“That sword!!”

Brunhild Eiktobel was aiming for Mikoto’s neck with her claymore, but the sword stopped in midair.

But once again it did not last even a second.

As if it was stuck in a wall and she was pulling it out, Brunhild ignored the great magnetic power and used her tremendous arm strength to forcibly swing the giant sword horizontally.

But…

“One second…is enough!!”

She had taken aim.

Bluish-white sparks flew from Mikoto’s bangs.

With the roar of the air bursting, the lightning spear directly struck the steel claymore. Not even Brunhild was able to ignore that. The high voltage current passed from the blade to her wrists and then rushed throughout her entire body.

Meanwhile, Mikoto swung her left hand. It was the same motion as that used in a sidearm throw in baseball.

Something large moved as if following her palm.

It was a giant mass of reinforced concrete. It flew straight for Brunhild to perform a deadly body blow.

Brunhild forcibly recovered from the electric damage in an instant and used her claymore and her physical strength to stop that mass that could likely destroy a building wall.

A struggle began like two opponents with their swords locked together. - TAMI NT Chapter 7 Part 7

Thor was impressed by Misaka's performance as an Academy City creation

A great flash of light exploded out.

On top of the same overpass road, the Lightning God Thor watched the phenomenon behind him that resembled an explosion and felt the stinging vibration on his skin. A smile formed on the corner of his mouth. This was a wild and belligerent smile unlike his previous one.

“Ohh, ohh. Now, they’re having some fun. I don’t know whether I should praise Academy City for their creations or praise that Valkyrie for keeping up her supersonic speeds even after all that.” - TAMI NT Chapter 7 Part 7

Silvia considered Misaka an opponent and was about to help Brunhild out by jumping into their fight

Silvia then turned around in order to deal with the remaining opponent.

In that direction, Brunhild Eiktobel and the Academy City girl’s battle was still ongoing. But a two-sided attack from two Saints would finish that quickly enough. - TAMI NT Chapter 7 Part 7

If you don't want to see the spoiler stuff... Misaka entered into a battle with a 6-B char who was bloodlusted and had no reason to hold back in the slightest. She could stop their attacks, enter into a struggle and harm her and do attacks that were stated by the narration as deadly and forced the 6-B to block 'em. Furthermore... A 6-B char was impressed by Misaka's performance, and yet another 6-B was ready to jump in to defeat Misaka quickly. And as stated before... B5, Kakine and Rensa scales above her.

Also... Smth, smth... Ignoring Amata and Touma, Kakine is the first person to actually enter into a "proper" fight with Accelerator and the Aiwass encounter didn't make Accelerator even a bit stronger by direct admission or implication, it literally just taught him that strange laws (magic) existed and it can bypass his reflection - so there is no reason to assume Accelerator mysteriously got stronger despite not having any form of accelerated (heh) development.

TLDR: Misaka is weaksauce. Make B5, Kakine and Rensa into 6-Bs as a result! ... And by extension make Accelerator's first two keys 6-B as he's vastly superior to Misaka even at his absolute weakest. Am just spit-balling here.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

As for Rensa scaling, she'd either scale to the seemingly arbitrary time frame of the "Post-Aiwass" key or else she'd be able to damage Nephthys if she knows the same techniques as Accel. I personally don't care which happens. Maybe Accel's AP shouldn't even have a set value, and just lean more into his "Varies, up to" kind of rating. Even in the scan you used for damaging Gabriel/Kazakiri, he was seen leeching "vectors" to do so. Would have to think on it more.

The problem is that it's not really a varies, just an inconsistent power, the attack using vectors gathered from a 6B angel should be stronger than an attack using a normal drop of water, but the latter was actually able to hurt a 5B? Kamachi simply has no consistency in this regard.

Also, a bit off-topic, but regarding this stuff... To explain away the Nephthys' stuff; couldn't it be possible that Nep just decided to job? Like... Considering the fact that Niang-Niang willingly let herself lose against Aleister for the heck of it and Nephthys having immense regen capabilities... would it be a stretch to assume that she just held back enough so that she can have fun in a fight with Accelerator? ... Well, until he got his power-up but that shiz was entirely off-screen (and Accel was half-dead by the end) so it doesn't matter, lel.

... Onto the Varies suggestion that Zon proposed... Isn't it canon that Accelerator can control the strength of his attacks or smth as seen by the times that his attacks easily incap'ed no-named fodder without immediately turning them into string cheese. Idk. I just like "Varies from 9-B to 6-B with Vector Control" rating for Accelerator.

 

[XDragnoir]

Hmm... To solve the issue with Beetle 05, Kakine and Rensa... Why don't we merge Accelerator's Post-Aiwass key into Accelerator's Post-Headshot key?

Agreed, even if we keep the existence of multiple keys, the current criteria aren't valid anymore IMHO

Another solution would be to upgrade Accel's keys based on each Wing's awakening which would be similar to what we use currently but solves most if not all of the problems.

Misaka. And her fight with Brunhild... for non-toaru folks. Former is a char who the aforementioned characters that are bolded scales above. Latter is a 6-B char.

If you don't want to see the spoiler stuff... Misaka entered into a battle with a 6-B char who was bloodlusted and had no reason to hold back in the slightest. She could stop their attacks, enter into a struggle and harm her and do attacks that were stated by the narration as deadly and forced the 6-B to block 'em. Furthermore... A 6-B char was impressed by Misaka's performance, and yet another 6-B was ready to jump in to defeat Misaka quickly. And as stated before... B5, Kakine and Rensa scales above her.

Yeah, I think it was also agreed in the last CRT that Misaka should have an extra key to account for her Post-L6S growth and NT feats (honestly, we could probably just modify her AAA key into a NT key).

Also, a bit off-topic, but regarding this stuff... To explain away the Nephthys' stuff; couldn't it be possible that Nep just decided to job? Like... Considering the fact that Niang-Niang willingly let herself lose against Aleister for the heck of it and Nephthys having immense regen capabilities... would it be a stretch to assume that she just held back enough so that she can have fun in a fight with Accelerator? ... Well, until he got his power-up but that shiz was entirely off-screen (and Accel was half-dead by the end) so it doesn't matter, lel.

Well, sure, the best explanation is indeed Neph fighting like a door at the start of their fight rather than Accel being super casually 5B

Lining this with what I said above, Accel could have the following keys:

Pre-HS - Post HS - Post BW Awakening - Post WW Awakening - Post Clonoth

His strength from BW key to WW key doesn't really change much going by feats (unless I am forgetting something really major in his NT fights) so it doesn't really matter, but the Clonoth key is really important as at that point he used the spear attack that damaged Neph which is more than likely than point we can start to treat him as 5B (I'd say it's unlikely that Nephtys was still being casual, as if that was the case Accel would have shredded her with the spear).

... Onto the Varies suggestion that Zon proposed... Isn't it canon that Accelerator can control the strength of his attacks or smth as seen by the times that his attacks easily incap'ed no-named fodder without immediately turning them into string cheese. Idk. I just like "Varies from 9-B to 6-B with Vector Control" rating for Accelerator.

I know that there is a thread regarding what exactly should be allowed for a Varies rating or not, if they ever come to a conclusion and Accel fits the criteria I guess we could do that, until then I'd rather avoid a Varies rating, also, we already explain that his AP varies in his profile anyway, it's just mot directly tied to tiers but it's there in all keys.

As I've probably said before, Accel's Vector Control ratings in his profile should be an "Up to X" rather than the direct ratings we have now but that's about the only thing other than the keys I think we should change in his current profile structure.

 

[GunTish]

I very much disagree with scaling Misaka to Saints. Brunhild going for the kill doesn't mean she's going all out. Misaka also barely managed to hold her claymore for a second before she powered through. That alone proves that Brunhild wasn't going all out to begin with. She also never even bothered to drop her claymore and go cqc, even when Misaka had over 12 tons of metal stuck to it.

Brunhild Eiktobel had suddenly stopped those movements which contained such monstrous power. Even when Mikoto had magnetized her giant steel sword using a high voltage current so that all sorts of iron objects flew to it, the woman had used brute strength to continue to swing around that mass that had to weigh a dozen tons. But now she froze in place.

Misaka also never harmed her. At best she stunned her for a second, which can just be attributed to the properties of electricity.

Upgrading Misaka from City level to Country level from that small encounter is pretty ridiculous imo.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Snip

Major disagree, for a few reasons.

First and foremost, why would Brunhild, without any mention or implication whatsoever, lower her durability thousands of times to the point she had to block one of Misaka's magnetically propelled attack that the narration itself said was deadly? Second, why would Thor be impressed whatsoever by an Academy City Creation if Misaka's power was thousands of times weaker than her opponent? Third, why would Silvia be inclined to help Brunhild out if she was facing an opponent that was supposedly thousands of times weaker than her? Fourth, since we know High Priest was the first person ever to casually deflect Misaka's railgun (that isn't Accelerator), we are left with the implication that Brunhild evaded her Railgun by some unknown means.

Like... It is either Brunhild did absolutely nothing and made herself weaker for no apparent reason, everybody just hallucinated Misaka's fight and the narration itself (and everybody's statements) is useless or Misaka's AP downscales/scales to Saint. There is no other option, imo.

Plus... Misaka's 7-B rating is literally a Chapter 1 feat that was done by her getting annoyed with Touma than anything serious like with Accelerator or Brunhild. So there's that too.

Snip

Honestly, methinks, Accelerator's key should only be this:

Pre-HS - Post-HS - Post-Clonoth

The wings themselves are essentially useless in terms of scaling, more or less. The only serious fight they've been used in is with Touma. Amata and Kakine were easily defeated, after all, and Accelerator only survived Fiamma's Eurasia Buster was because it was stopped at the last second and even then he was immediately knocked out and left unconscious in a half-dead state for until everything with Gabby was done with, which was all stated by Accelerator himself.

Plus, if we consider the fact that ToAru has no UES in-place, Saints have a special biological stick that explains away their durability, Index's statement only claims that BW!Accel had a power that Saints may not be able to control (and she, of all people, should easily know that Saints are extremely limited by their own power) and we are never told that the wings biologically changes Accelerator 'sides giving him wings... Accelerator's Wings... might even be more worthless and only just upscales from "normal saints", i.e, Kanzaki, in terms of AP and his durability is left entirely untouched (which would explain how Touma is even able to hurt him in their fights, I guess)

Agree with you for the A.A.A key, btw, but we should probably leave the modifying stuff in a new thread, probably. Same with the Varies stuff too.

On a side note... The Nep fight is just pretty weird, ngl. Like for no reason whatsoever, Nep bypassed Accel's reflection with sheer brute force + regen (which implies a can of worms that I am not going to open with Accel durability and Nep physically scaling above Coronzon's sword or Accel's reflection having a brand new weakness) to kick the crap out of him and then tackled him through a wall... Will have more to say about this in the 5-B thread that'll likely come one day.

And that's that. My fix for B5, Kakine and Rensa... Plus, Accel too. Have nothing else to say, atm, as I think everything else you've said is sound and logical.

 

[GunTish]

snip

"Deadly" can also be used when the intent behind something is to kill. The narrator also said that the attack "likely could have destroyed a building wall". Do you seriously think that an attack that wasn't even building level could have killed a country level character? It would make a lot more sense if "deadly" was referring to Misaka's intent to kill, rather then the objective lethality of the attack.

The context leading to Thor's praise leads me to think that he's mostly impressed by her Railgun. Misaka prepares to fire a Railgun --> We switch to Thor's pov --> Something flashes, which catches his attention --> He praises her. Regardless tho, Thor doesn't have full knowledge on either Misaka or Brunhild's full capabilities. He wouldn't know if Brunhild was holding back. He was also busy fighting Silvia, so he most likely only saw bits of the fight here and there.

Silvia wanting to help Brunhild in no way proves that Misaka is relative to her. After "defeating" Thor, she checked on Brunhild, saw that the fight was still going, and just said that it would be quicker in a 2v1. That doesn't mean she took the time to assess both of their power.

Lastly, Brunhild dodging the Railgun isn't proof that it could have harmed her. To dodge an attack is the natural thing to do, regardless of the strength of said attack. There's also the possibility that she just didn't want to take the risk of tanking something she has never encountered before.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Snip

While there is probably no point in talking much about this since Misaka scaling to Brunhild has already been accepted in another thread altogether, and this thread is 100% on 6-B clarification and whatnot, I suppose I should try this one more time.

First and foremost. Anything regarding tiers 100% doesn't exist in canon, or i.e, labels like "Country level" or "Building level" doesn't exist in ToAru canon; so an arguement like "attack that wasn't even building level could have killed a country level character" doesn't matter in a verse's context.

Secondly, it is extremely out of character for Misaka having any "intent to kill" if she wasn't massively provoked like with Accelerator killing one of her sister or mentally compromised like throughout NT14 to NT17, thus, since neither of these two things apply to Misaka in this fight and we were focused on Brunhild in this moment, it is only naturally to assume that "deadly" here applies to "objective lethality of the attack" in her POV. And again. She moved to block it instead of tanking it.

Thirdly, there is nothing to imply that Thor and Silva were fighting and suddenly stopped; moreover, the way the text is phrased makes it seem they were both standing around and assessing Misaka and Brunhild's fight until they had enough and started fighting themselves. I do also want to point out that while he doesn't know either Misaka and Brunhild's full capabilities, magician in general have a basic idea of a saint capabilities and there exist saint-level magicians in the verse of which Thor knows and draws power from one... Mjolnir, who is directly stated to be the Magic's Side's Misaka. So for him to be impressed by an Academy City Creation means a lot. That, and... Thor sought out Misaka's help against the two Saints in the first place; so putting Thor's character into consideration... it would be massively OOC for him to drag a massively weaker fighter to a fight they couldn't help in the slightest in.

Lastly, well... Again, if Misaka was massively weaker here, Silva wouldn't have any reason to say what she said or Brunhild wouldn't have any reason to dodge. It is consistent for this verse to have lower tier fighters getting effortlessly stomped by higher tier fighters, Touma's "fights" against any Saint tiers or Kanzaki's "fight" against Boosted!KL comes to mind for example, so if Misaka wasn't comparable in the slightest none of her attacks would've done anything and Brunhild wouldn't have bothered with any defensive acts or evasion.

Welp, again, this is already accepted (but hasn't yet been applied due to this CRT needing to be done first) and way off-topic for this CRT, so.,. that's that. I'mma done.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

And honestly if it is such a major issue, we could just place Misaka in the downscaling from Saint section that Curtana Fragments!Carissa, Knight Leader and Post-WWIII Acqua exist in, atm... since Kanzaki mangaed to stall all of 'em for several hours straight... TLDR: all of the cities/towns/villages Touma visited in NT10 are places that exist irl and Touma walked to one or two of 'em on foot whilst accompanied with a dying Othinus, all of 'em taking a few hours to reach on foot according to Google Maps, and it isn't much short via bus or car either, so...

And Misaka scaling or downscaling to Brunhild would reinforce Accelerator scaling to Gabriel, I think... Considering the fact that Kanzaki could fight on relatively equal terms with Brunhild but was forced to use a body-destroying amp when she fought against Gabriel, i.e, Breaker of God, so the scaling would be like this;

Misaka ~ / < Brunhild ~ Kanzaki < Kanzaki (BoG/Yuisen) ~ Gabriel ~ Accelerator

Which wouldn't break anything to my knowledge.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

bump

 

[XDragnoir]

I forgot about this thread, ngl.

Plus, if we consider the fact that ToAru has no UES in-place, Saints have a special biological stick that explains away their durability

Yeah, Idol Theory with Jesus' special body, if I am not mistaken that's the explanation for their superhuman stats.

, Index's statement only claims that BW!Accel had a power that Saints may not be able to control (and she, of all people, should easily know that Saints are extremely limited by their own power) and we are never told that the wings biologically changes Accelerator 'sides giving him wings... Accelerator's Wings... might even be more worthless and only just upscales from "normal saints", i.e, Kanzaki, in terms of AP and his durability is left entirely untouched (which would explain how Touma is even able to hurt him in their fights, I guess)

No, this makes no sense. We literally saw Accel blocking a grenade the moment he got his wings so it clearly increases his durability and there's no need for it to alter his biology in any way to increase his stats. IMO we should just leave it as it is rn.

On a side note... The Nep fight is just pretty weird, ngl. Like for no reason whatsoever, Nep bypassed Accel's reflection with sheer brute force + regen (which implies a can of worms that I am not going to open with Accel durability and Nep physically scaling above Coronzon's sword or Accel's reflection having a brand new weakness) to kick the crap out of him and then tackled him through a wall... Will have more to say about this in the 5-B thread that'll likely come one day.

Ehhhh, the fight is really strange yeah and it's not really explained what exactly allowed Neph to hit Accel, but scaling above the Flaming Sword is obviously not the case.

 

[XDragnoir]

And honestly if it is such a major issue, we could just place Misaka in the downscaling from Saint section that Curtana Fragments!Carissa, Knight Leader and Post-WWIII Acqua exist in, atm... since Kanzaki mangaed to stall all of 'em for several hours straight...

Technically, no one downscales rn and there's no reason to IMO.

Downscaling is when a character's stats drops from one value to another due to a large gap, which doesn't happen in Toaru

And Misaka scaling or downscaling to Brunhild would reinforce Accelerator scaling to Gabriel, I think... Considering the fact that Kanzaki could fight on relatively equal terms with Brunhild but was forced to use a body-destroying amp when she fought against Gabriel, i.e, Breaker of God, so the scaling would be like this;

Misaka ~ / < Brunhild ~ Kanzaki < Kanzaki (BoG/Yuisen) ~ Gabriel ~ Accelerator

Which wouldn't break anything to my knowledge.

This part is right tho, but I think we should first be sure of how much upgrading Mikoto would actually change across the verse (I doubt it changes many characters, but it should affect a few).

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I forgot about this thread, ngl.

Same, same. Honestly, I just remembered this via a random google search reminding me that this thread existed, tbh.

Yeah, Idol Theory with Jesus' special body, if I am not mistaken that's the explanation for their superhuman stats.

Thanks for the clarification!

No, this makes no sense. We literally saw Accel blocking a grenade the moment he got his wings so it clearly increases his durability and there's no need for it to alter his biology in any way to increase his stats. IMO we should just leave it as it is rn.

First, I must make a correction. Accelerator didn't block a grenade, moreso... He just face-tanked it. Secondly, with everything in mind... We should just scale Accelerator to him face-tanking the grenade, instead. Again. No UES. No Saint-like biology to invoke Idol Theory. Plus the sheer featless state that Accelerator's Wing Forms are... Means, well... Having Saint/6-B Power but not having the direct means of using that power to increase your physical stats with it makes Index's statement useless and the fact that the wings only direct dura feat is that of Accel face-tanking a grenade kinda makes it seem its dura should be just in the 9-B range.

... Also, smth smth... Even if I do sound like a broken record about this, the White Wings are useless too as Accelerator directly stated that the only reason he survived Fiamma's Eurasia Buster was because it was stopped at the last second but even still it was enough to OHKO him and leave him barely alive.

Let's just settle this in the future and not in this CRT, though.

Ehhhh, the fight is really strange yeah and it's not really explained what exactly allowed Neph to hit Accel, but scaling above the Flaming Sword is obviously not the case.

It could be just that Accelerator's reflection could be passed through with brute-force or smth. Or maybe Nep was just semi-like Aiwass in the sense that Nep was just too weird for his reflection to work on her. Kamachi will probably never answer, tho, so let's forget it.

Technically, no one downscales rn and there's no reason to IMO.

Downscaling is when a character's stats drops from one value to another due to a large gap, which doesn't happen in Toaru

Eh, if those three were 100% equal to Kanzaki in any way, she would've been quickly overpowered cuz it was a 3v1 and Othinus and Touma would've quickly caught and the former would've been killed (especially since these two walked to a city on foot), so these three have to be weaker then Kanzaki for the narrative set in place to make a lick of sense.

But out of topic.

This part is right tho, but I think we should first be sure of how much upgrading Mikoto would actually change across the verse (I doubt it changes many characters, but it should affect a few).

Will make a CRT for this in the future, then... Way way into the future since GT9 is about to be released and I'mma busy with my own stuff. That, and this topic is of little importance since Misaka (and the 6-B tier) is fodder nowadays since Kamachi really likes escalating the power of new characters while leaving old characters in the dust, lol

 

[XDragnoir]

First, I must make a correction. Accelerator didn't block a grenade, moreso... He just face-tanked it.

Yeah, I used the wrong word.

Secondly, with everything in mind... We should just scale Accelerator to him face-tanking the grenade, instead. Again. No UES. No Saint-like biology to invoke Idol Theory.

Why does not having a UES mean anything? That has absolutely nothing to do with how we scale things, I have no idea why you keep bringing that or their biology up when this is about scaling.

Plus the sheer featless state that Accelerator's Wing Forms are... Means, well... Having Saint/6-B Power but not having the direct means of using that power to increase your physical stats with it makes Index's statement useless and the fact that the wings only direct dura feat is that of Accel face-tanking a grenade kinda makes it seem its dura should be just in the 9-B range.

The fact Accel can tank a grenade means the wings's energy amped his dura and given Index's statement it's directly implied that the energy inside his body is above saint level, he may lack high end dura feats with the wings but given it's simply a logical conclusion that isn't contradicted at any point that he is this durable.

... Also, smth smth... Even if I do sound like a broken record about this, the White Wings are useless too as Accelerator directly stated that the only reason he survived Fiamma's Eurasia Buster was because it was stopped at the last second but even still it was enough to OHKO him and leave him barely alive.

Where did he say it was stopped at the last second? I don't remember that

It could be just that Accelerator's reflection could be passed through with brute-force or smth. Or maybe Nep was just semi-like Aiwass in the sense that Nep was just too weird for his reflection to work on her. Kamachi will probably never answer, tho, so let's forget it.

It absolutely can't be passed through by brute force, what? That's the less likely explanation.

Eh, if those three were 100% equal to Kanzaki in any way, she would've been quickly overpowered cuz it was a 3v1 and Othinus and Touma would've quickly caught and the former would've been killed (especially since these two walked to a city on foot), so these three have to be weaker then Kanzaki for the narrative set in place to make a lick of sense.

I never said they're equals, but simply being > or < another character doesn't cause you downscale, that's only for large gaps.

Also, they could be equals in stats and have such a fight anyway, you realize there's much more to a fight than how hard you can punch, right?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Snip

Ye, ye. All this stuff can be addressed in a future CRT, Noir! ... We are so far from the starting OP that we've landed on a different planet altogether, lel.

... but uh... I'll address one thing.

Here. For White Wings!Accel

Accelerator was collapsed atop a hill.

Neither Last Order nor Misaka Worst was there. Only the white snow stretched on seemingly forever around him. At an altitude of 8000 meters, he had been struck by the mass of strange energy fired by the fortress, but not even he really understood what had happened after that. The white wings had disappeared from his back. At the very least, he understood that he was alive like that because the great destruction had been stopped at the last second.

I've bolded the important part to make it obvious; i,e, WW!Accel got OHKO'ed by Fiamma's attack and it was by Accel's own understanding that he was only collapsed atop a hill and not dead was because Fiamma's attack was stopped at the last second... which was 99.9% likely due to Touma negating HR since that literally happened right after Accel clashed with Fiamma's attack.

I'mma call it quits now, though! If a mod doesn't come here in a day or two, I'll try to ping more of 'em

 

[Doggo]

bump

 

[Alsotime]

B5, Kakine and Rensa scales above her.

Would OT Kakine’s raw power scale above hers? Her feats are usually on the same level or higher than his, and the only he could actually fight Accelerator was because he could attack through his vector shield, besides that his other like feats include

Beating Mugino, who Misaka beat while severely exhausted, and via narration has stronger attack power than.

Believing he was undefeatable by any esper or weapon in academy city, which was proven false like 3 mins later after Accelerator reduced him to a lump of Organs.

And lastly him saying he can tank a Railgun with his wings, but either he’s talking about a real Railgun, that’s suppose to be about a weaker Misaka because current GT Misaka as stated above is stronger than Meltdowner which can basically evaporate dark matter clones, or we go off the fact that a Railgun isn’t necessarily Mikoto’s strongest application of her power

The most he has is being faster but even that gets mitigated by the short burst of Rampage Dress which Misaka can use to also go supersonic [whatever that means in the context of the series]

Like yes I’m sure he’d stomp her because dark matter has an insane amount of applications, he could prob turn her to sand or something like that, but I don’t see why he’d be outright more powerful than she is attack wise

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Snip

Again. Out of topic for OP's post. We can talk about it in a separate CRT meant to tackle that issue... Although, honestly, I do agree on what you're trying to say and know you are making a good point.

 

[Churronzon]

3rd key is the... ehhh, it should be 5B physically for its feats against Coronzon and Mathers, but I really don't care enough to argue it right now, so just leave it as 6B physically as it's stronger than the previous one.

I don't know if you still want to get into this since the walls of text have already emerged, but which of Aleister's attacks scale to Coronzon? I can only think of one (maybe) that required optional equipment he created and which his profile doesn't have.
I'm asking because Aleister wasn't even using Son of God synchronization after his fight with Mathers, so if any clash was done with Coronzon, it was either in base or with a blood sacrifice.

Am I missin somethin

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I don't know if you still want to get into this since the walls of text have already emerged, but which of Aleister's attacks scale to Coronzon? I can only think of one (maybe) that required optional equipment he created and which his profile doesn't have.
I'm asking because Aleister wasn't even using Son of God synchronization after his fight with Mathers, so if any clash was done with Coronzon, it was either in base or with a blood sacrifice.

Am I missin somethin

Gah, are ToAru CRTs forever cursed to stay off-topic? Like the only thing this CRT is about is 6B clarification... But ye, again, Zon does bring up smth interesting that should be talk about in another CRT. kek. Maybe, I need to go bug some mods later.

 

[XDragnoir]

I don't know if you still want to get into this since the walls of text have already emerged, but which of Aleister's attacks scale to Coronzon? I can only think of one (maybe) that required optional equipment he created and which his profile doesn't have.
I'm asking because Aleister wasn't even using Son of God synchronization after his fight with Mathers, so if any clash was done with Coronzon, it was either in base or with a blood sacrifice.

Am I missin somethin

Ehhh, I guess I will have to answer this somewhere else to avoid the off-topic things and derailing.

But you're right that I forgot Son of God wasn't really active during the fight with Coronzon.

 

[XDragnoir]

Bump

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

bump

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

bump

 

[Dereck03]

What is the TL; DR? From what I see there are off-topic comments and due to my lack of knowledge of the verse I can misinterpret them as actual proposals, so I would appreciate a summary.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

What is the TL; DR? From what I see there are off-topic comments and due to my lack of knowledge of the verse I can misinterpret them as actual proposals, so I would appreciate a summary.

TLDR:

• 6Bs are 2x a 6B calculation since it was done by a character named Gabriel that was outright weakened by 50% due to another character named Acqua taking away their power from them.
• Acqua is 200% (or 2x) stronger than all of the other 6-Bs. But only in his first key as he gets weaker as the series progress.
• Char named Aleister will lose 6-C ratings in his first key as nothing supports it. Will remain 6-B in his second and third keys.
• A character named Accel will be 6-B with an ability due to fighting Gabriel
• Three characters (Kakine, Beetle 05 and Rensa) have some issues in their scaling, more or less. Will likely need an entirely different CRT to fix that mess.
• The off-topic comments are just other key issues that verse supporters likely have to solve in other CRTs as well. Verse scaling is a mess right now and we've just begun the attempt to solve it, basically,

 

[Dereck03]

• 6Bs are 2x a 6B calculation since it was done by a character named Gabriel that was outright weakened by 50% due to another character named Acqua taking away their power from them.

x2 because Gabriel was currently fighting at only half his power? Sounds fine to me.

• Acqua is 200% (or 2x) stronger than all of the other 6-Bs. But only in his first key as he gets weaker as the series progress.

Seems fine.

• Char named Aleister will lose 6-C ratings in his first key as nothing supports it. Will remain 6-B in his second and third keys.

Will still be 6-B due to some external scaling or directly to another character? Sounds good to me.

• A character named Accel will be 6-B with an ability due to fighting Gabriel

Seems fine.

• Three characters (Kakine, Beetle 05 and Rensa) have some issues in their scaling, more or less. Will likely need an entirely different CRT to fix that mess.

Aight.

 

[XDragnoir]

What is the TL; DR? From what I see there are off-topic comments and due to my lack of knowledge of the verse I can misinterpret them as actual proposals, so I would appreciate a summary.

Most of the posts were about how exactly we should index some specific characters and then went a bit off topic because there are characters that may become 6B in the future, so don't worry about them.

Would OT Kakine’s raw power scale above hers? Her feats are usually on the same level or higher than his, and the only he could actually fight Accelerator was because he could attack through his vector shield

Kakine blocked some attacks from Accelerator and clashed with him, that's why he scales to him as of currently.

 

[XDragnoir]

x2 because Gabriel was currently fighting at only half his power? Sounds fine to me.

More or less, I explained the chain of events in the OP.

Gabriel fought at 100% and then did a feat at 50%.

Will still be 6-B due to some external scaling or directly to another character? Sounds good to me.

Directly fought 2 other 6B at the same time

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Kakine blocked some attacks from Accelerator and clashed with him, that's why he scales to him as of currently.

But there is also the issue of this:

I am not sure where exactly these 3 (Beetle and Kakine are the same key but they're different characters, that's why I am making the distinction here) should scale, it depends a lot on which Accel would Rensa scale to, which I am not sure of rn, that as well as the fact Accel's keys are really arbitrary rn, they were created to prevent some characters (like Kakine himself) from scaling to saint tier back in the day, so they're not actually based on power ups or actual changes in power, but instead are based on "this one is a new key to not upgrade who he fought before".

So we probably have to do an entirely new CRT to fix this issue and address what the heck we need to do to fix Rensa, Kakine and Accel, I suppose.

snip

Thx!

 

[Dereck03]

Most of the posts were about how exactly we should index some specific characters and then went a bit off topic because there are characters that may become 6B in the future, so don't worry about them.

Well, there is no problem in discussing future proposals but I think it would be better to save it for before or after the CRT and not in the CRT itself, since the longer it is the more complicated it may become to evaluate it.

 

[Dereck03]

More or less, I explained the chain of events in the OP.

Gabriel fought at 100% and then did a feat at 50%.

Directly fought 2 other 6B at the same time

Ok, this checks out.

 

[XDragnoir]

Ok, this checks out.

With you now and KT before, we've got 2 staff approvals, do we need a 3rd staff or the revision is small enough to go through with 2?