Time to play with ghosts!

[LordDestroit10K]

Well my first thread, so here we go…

In Chozenshuu 4 (page 155) Gotenks' attack is described as releasing ectoplasmic energy ( エクトプラズム状の気) through his mouth.



In the Super Exciting Guide, the attack it’s defined as a spirits ghosts, it’s also said this in Daizenshuu 4:



And Daizenshuu 2:



So we can determine that the ghosts attack is spiritual and ectoplasmic, so my proposal with this thread is to give Gotenks and Buutenks ectoplasm manipulation, and reinforce that Ki has non-physical interaction properties, since Buu and Vegetto could interact with these spirit beings made of ectoplasm.



Adding to the fact that Gohan can do the same in the anime:



Agreement: @LephyrTheRevanchist and @Damage3245 with limited creation. @DarkDragonMedeus with Ectoplasm creation.

Neutral:

Disagreement:

 

[Killerdrone123]

Looks simple enough I agree

Also can someone please move it to content revision

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I completely agree with this

 

[TiltedFN]

Can a staff move this to content revision, it was posted in the wrong catagory

 

[RoninSlayer200]

so NPI Ki and Ectoplasm Manip gotenks and buutenks right?

i agree with this

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Can a staff move this to content revision, it was posted in the wrong catagory

Done

Also I agree with the thread

 

[CelestialVortex01]

Looks solid

 

[LordDestroit10K]

Done

Also I agree with the thread

Thank you

 

[Nullflowerblush]

状 (jō) = "form; shape; appearance"

Gotenks's Ki imitates the shape or appearance of ectoplasm (i.e., the wispy form of a ghost), but is not described as being ectoplasmic.

Translating 気 (ki) as "spirit" instead of "Ki" in order to claim the term "spirit ghosts" is either completely disingenuous or completely ignorant. Even in Super, the word 気 is never used to describe the spirit (e.g., Spirit Control); スピリット (suppiritto) is.

ような (you na) = "like; similar to" or "feels like; feels similar to; feels as if"

オバケのようなエネルギー体
"ghost-like body of energy"

 

[TheTenno07]

状 (jō) = "form; shape; appearance"

Gotenks's Ki imitates the shape or appearance of ectoplasm (i.e., the wispy form of a ghost), but is not described as being ectoplasmic.

Translating 気 (ki) as "spirit" instead of "Ki" in order to claim the term "spirit ghosts" is either completely disingenuous or completely ignorant. Even in Super, the word 気 is never used to describe the spirit (e.g., Spirit Control); スピリット (suppiritto) is.

ような (you na) = "like; similar to" or "feels like; feels similar to; feels as if"

オバケのようなエネルギー体
"ghost-like body of energy"

Translate the kanji together; the slightest separation of them changes the entire meaning of the sentence.

 

[LordDestroit10K]

状 (jō) = "form; shape; appearance"

Gotenks's Ki imitates the shape or appearance of ectoplasm (i.e., the wispy form of a ghost), but is not described as being ectoplasmic.

Translating 気 (ki) as "spirit" instead of "Ki" in order to claim the term "spirit ghosts" is either completely disingenuous or completely ignorant. Even in Super, the word 気 is never used to describe the spirit (e.g., Spirit Control); スピリット (suppiritto) is.

ような (you na) = "like; similar to" or "feels like; feels similar to; feels as if"

オバケのようなエネルギー体
"ghost-like body of energy"

Please stop trying to be a Japanese translator, dude….

Translate the kanji together; the slightest separation of them changes the entire meaning of the sentence.

Exactly.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Null picking apart kanji and removing the context of the sentence.

We should get a translator to confirm the translations I suppose. @Executor_N0

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

状 (jō) = "form; shape; appearance"

Gotenks's Ki imitates the shape or appearance of ectoplasm (i.e., the wispy form of a ghost), but is not described as being ectoplasmic.

Translating 気 (ki) as "spirit" instead of "Ki" in order to claim the term "spirit ghosts" is either completely disingenuous or completely ignorant. Even in Super, the word 気 is never used to describe the spirit (e.g., Spirit Control); スピリット (suppiritto) is.

ような (you na) = "like; similar to" or "feels like; feels similar to; feels as if"

オバケのようなエネルギー体
"ghost-like body of energy"

Null, i ask you to stop trying to translate something, you said yourself that you don't know Japanese and separating the "kanji" is not correct.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Translate the kanji together; the slightest separation of them changes the entire meaning of the sentence.

Translating the kanji together only adds together their individual meanings?

• エクトプラズム状の気 = "energy [in the form/in the shape] of ectoplasm"
• 気のお化け and 気のオバケ = "ghost made out of Ki" or "Ki ghost"
• オバケのようなエネルギー体 = "ghost-like body of energy"

Do you guys know what they even mean?

separating the "kajin" is not correct.

Kanji.

 

[TheTenno07]

Translating the kanji together only adds together their individual meanings?

• エクトプラズム状の気 = "energy [in the form/in the shape] of ectoplasm"
• 気のお化け and 気のオバケ = "ghost made out of Ki" or "Ki ghost"
• オバケのようなエネルギー体 = "ghost-like body of energy"

Do you guys know what they even mean?

Kanji

I translated the kanji in the first sentence separately and it gave me this answer
"workman
nine
to
P
La
Z
Mu
condition
of
air"
Clear example of why translating them separately is wrong, seeing that none of us are expert translators, I suggest waiting for information from people who are.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Ah, you're correct; using "kanji" to describe entire words and sentences is erroneous, like trying to tell a non-English speaker that they should translate the individual letters of the alphabet in order to decipher its correct meaning of a word.

Translating the [words the kanji make up] together only adds together their individual meanings.*

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I'm lying; they can all be letters, words, or sentences.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't see why they would be non-physical in the first place.

 

[TheTenno07]

I don't see why they would be non-physical in the first place.

As we know, ghosts are intangible and interact with something intangible is an ability of npi.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Yes, ghosts are intangible.
See Dr. Mashirito.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Wait, Trunks couldn't touch him. Ignore that clip. I didn't mean to post that

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Null picking apart kanji and removing the context of the sentence.

We should get a translator to confirm the translations I suppose. @Executor_N0

@Executor_N0

 

[Damage3245]

As we know, ghosts are intangible and interact with something intangible is an ability of npi.

When is Gotenks' attack implied to be intangible though? Resembling a ghost does not necessarily mean possessing all of the properties of a ghost.

 

[TheTenno07]

When is Gotenks' attack implied to be intangible though? Resembling a ghost does not necessarily mean possessing all of the properties of a ghost.

The op is giving you the arguments why Gotenks' ability is a conventional ghost, it has the claim of being "spiritual and ectoplasmic" so it should be given Ectoplasm manipulation and be a reinforcement to the NPI that the ki has.

 

[Executor_N0]

I translated the kanji in the first sentence separately and it gave me this answer
"workman
nine
to
P
La
Z
Mu
condition
of
air"
Clear example of why translating them separately is wrong, seeing that none of us are expert translators, I suggest waiting for information from people who are.

Giving info so as not to see things out of control. This one there's a problem, the only kanji there are "状" "気", the others are Katakana (All of エクトプラズム) and hiragana (The の-particle indicating the relationship).

Looking at the meaning of individual Kanji is a helpful tool to find the intent of the phrase because many words share the same reading, it's a necessity depending on the case (It's not unusual for you to ask a teacher the meaning of some word and they request to know the kanji because the kanji will carry the intended meaning).

There are cases in which some extraordinary meaning is given by joining various kanji together, so looking at common usage is also sometimes a necessity (Which is why some stuff is always case by case, I'll never stop saying this). Also, dividing the kanji and putting them into MTL is not the same as doing the actual kanji meaning research, there is a lot of kanji that have intended meanings in Japanese but that can be used to describe varied English terms.

• エクトプラズム状の気 = "energy [in the form/in the shape] of ectoplasm"
• 気のお化け and 気のオバケ = "ghost made out of Ki" or "Ki ghost"
• オバケのようなエネルギー体 = "ghost-like body of energy"

This is right. Just to explain, "エクトプラズム" is written using Katakana, which is a Japanese syllabary used mostly to describe words originating from outside of Japan, although you'll mostly find it being used to describe English words, like this case. It's written "Ekutopurazumu", which is just ectoplasm

The reason why a lot of TheTenno07's translation gave nonsense was because he was basically separating syllables, some of which have common usage on their own, while others didn't. If they instead used a corresponding word written with Kanji (Such as 幽物質), the results would be vastly different.

Anyway, "エクトプラズム状の気".
"気" is literally Ki, and as Nullflowerblush stated, these translations were very open to describe it in various ways, even though it's basically a keyword in Dragon Ball, so keeping it as "Ki" should be enough. The same thing happened with Janemba when statements of him being made of "Evil Ki" were being translated to "Evil Thoughts" or "Evil Spirits", even though the word already has enough context in DB to know what it means (Basically spiritual energy, has always been and I the Moro Arc even had a point in discussing this).

"状" does mean "Shape/appearance/form/state", so something akin to "Ectoplasm-shaped" isn't really wrong.

But yes, if you decide to translate it as "Ki of Ectoplasm-shape" or "Ectoplasm-state of Ki" wouldn't change that it's stating it's something made of Ki that is taking some form, so it's just Ki-control, but the Ki looks like a white ghost that explodes.

In fact, the following text makes that very clear:
"この気は自分で意思を持っており、またゴテンクスの命令に従って自由自在に動く。ゴテンクスは、この気をオバケと呼んでいた。"
"This Ki possesses a will of its own and moves completely in control of Gotenks' commands. Gotenks called this Ki a Ghost (Obake). "
The text constantly describes the attack by stating it's basically just Ki, they are ghosts made out of Ki. With this context, all the other images say the same.

The stuff from "Super Exciting Guide and Daizenshuu 4"
"気のオバケ" is "Ghost of Ki". "気のお化け" is the same, it's just written with Hiragana and Kanji instead of Katakana.

In fact, I think that "Daizenshuu 2" stating "オバケのようなエネルギー体" (Ghost-like energy-body) is also evidence for this. "のような" is used to describe something "seems like" or "looks like" something else. So, it's stating it's an "Energy body that looks like/seems like a Ghost". And, that is it.

The text is just saying that Gotenks has a Ki attack (Whatever Ki means in DB) that has a will of its own and follows what Gotenks says, and that Ki has a shape that looks like a Ghost and Gotenks also calls it a Ghost. That is all.

 

[TheTenno07]

Giving info so as not to see things out of control. This one there's a problem, the only kanji there are "状" "気", the others are Katakana (All of エクトプラズム) and hiragana (The の-particle indicating the relationship).

Looking at the meaning of individual Kanji is a helpful tool to find the intent of the phrase because many words share the same reading, it's a necessity depending on the case (It's not unusual for you to ask a teacher the meaning of some word and they request to know the kanji because the kanji will carry the intended meaning).

There are cases in which some extraordinary meaning is given by joining various kanji together, so looking at common usage is also sometimes a necessity (Which is why some stuff is always case by case, I'll never stop saying this). Also, dividing the kanji and putting them into MTL is not the same as doing the actual kanji meaning research, there is a lot of kanji that have intended meanings in Japanese but that can be used to describe varied English terms.


This is right. Just to explain, "エクトプラズム" is written using Katakana, which is a Japanese syllabary used mostly to describe words originating from outside of Japan, although you'll mostly find it being used to describe English words, like this case. It's written "Ekutopurazumu", which is just ectoplasm

The reason why a lot of TheTenno07's translation gave nonsense was because he was basically separating syllables, some of which have common usage on their own, while others didn't. If they instead used a corresponding word written with Kanji (Such as 幽物質), the results would be vastly different.

Anyway, "エクトプラズム状の気".
"気" is literally Ki, and as Nullflowerblush stated, these translations were very open to describe it in various ways, even though it's basically a keyword in Dragon Ball, so keeping it as "Ki" should be enough. The same thing happened with Janemba when statements of him being made of "Evil Ki" were being translated to "Evil Thoughts" or "Evil Spirits", even though the word already has enough context in DB to know what it means (Basically spiritual energy, has always been and I the Moro Arc even had a point in discussing this).

"状" does mean "Shape/appearance/form/state", so something akin to "Ectoplasm-shaped" isn't really wrong.

But yes, if you decide to translate it as "Ki of Ectoplasm-shape" or "Ectoplasm-state of Ki" wouldn't change that it's stating it's something made of Ki that is taking some form, so it's just Ki-control, but the Ki looks like a white ghost that explodes.

In fact, the following text makes that very clear:
"この気は自分で意思を持っており、またゴテンクスの命令に従って自由自在に動く。ゴテンクスは、この気をオバケと呼んでいた。"
"This Ki possesses a will of its own and moves completely in control of Gotenks' commands. Gotenks called this Ki a Ghost (Obake). "
The text constantly describes the attack by stating it's basically just Ki, they are ghosts made out of Ki. With this context, all the other images say the same.

The stuff from "Super Exciting Guide and Daizenshuu 4"
"気のオバケ" is "Ghost of Ki". "気のお化け" is the same, it's just written with Hiragana and Kanji instead of Katakana.

In fact, I think that "Daizenshuu 2" stating "オバケのようなエネルギー体" (Ghost-like energy-body) is also evidence for this. "のような" is used to describe something "seems like" or "looks like" something else. So, it's stating it's an "Energy body that looks like/seems like a Ghost". And, that is it.

The text is just saying that Gotenks has a Ki attack (Whatever Ki means in DB) that has a will of its own and follows what Gotenks says, and that Ki has a shape that looks like a Ghost and Gotenks also calls it a Ghost. That is all.

Thanks For taking your time to come and clarify the doubts.

 

[LordDestroit10K]

they are ghosts made out of Ki.

Okay, thank you for your great help. So, they are ghost made out of Ki, like ectoplasm form/state. Shouldn’t this give at least ectoplasm creation or something similar for the Ki?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Giving info so as not to see things out of control. This one there's a problem, the only kanji there are "状" "気", the others are Katakana (All of エクトプラズム) and hiragana (The の-particle indicating the relationship).

Looking at the meaning of individual Kanji is a helpful tool to find the intent of the phrase because many words share the same reading, it's a necessity depending on the case (It's not unusual for you to ask a teacher the meaning of some word and they request to know the kanji because the kanji will carry the intended meaning).

There are cases in which some extraordinary meaning is given by joining various kanji together, so looking at common usage is also sometimes a necessity (Which is why some stuff is always case by case, I'll never stop saying this). Also, dividing the kanji and putting them into MTL is not the same as doing the actual kanji meaning research, there is a lot of kanji that have intended meanings in Japanese but that can be used to describe varied English terms.


This is right. Just to explain, "エクトプラズム" is written using Katakana, which is a Japanese syllabary used mostly to describe words originating from outside of Japan, although you'll mostly find it being used to describe English words, like this case. It's written "Ekutopurazumu", which is just ectoplasm

The reason why a lot of TheTenno07's translation gave nonsense was because he was basically separating syllables, some of which have common usage on their own, while others didn't. If they instead used a corresponding word written with Kanji (Such as 幽物質), the results would be vastly different.

Anyway, "エクトプラズム状の気".
"気" is literally Ki, and as Nullflowerblush stated, these translations were very open to describe it in various ways, even though it's basically a keyword in Dragon Ball, so keeping it as "Ki" should be enough. The same thing happened with Janemba when statements of him being made of "Evil Ki" were being translated to "Evil Thoughts" or "Evil Spirits", even though the word already has enough context in DB to know what it means (Basically spiritual energy, has always been and I the Moro Arc even had a point in discussing this).

"状" does mean "Shape/appearance/form/state", so something akin to "Ectoplasm-shaped" isn't really wrong.

But yes, if you decide to translate it as "Ki of Ectoplasm-shape" or "Ectoplasm-state of Ki" wouldn't change that it's stating it's something made of Ki that is taking some form, so it's just Ki-control, but the Ki looks like a white ghost that explodes.

In fact, the following text makes that very clear:
"この気は自分で意思を持っており、またゴテンクスの命令に従って自由自在に動く。ゴテンクスは、この気をオバケと呼んでいた。"
"This Ki possesses a will of its own and moves completely in control of Gotenks' commands. Gotenks called this Ki a Ghost (Obake). "
The text constantly describes the attack by stating it's basically just Ki, they are ghosts made out of Ki. With this context, all the other images say the same.

The stuff from "Super Exciting Guide and Daizenshuu 4"
"気のオバケ" is "Ghost of Ki". "気のお化け" is the same, it's just written with Hiragana and Kanji instead of Katakana.

In fact, I think that "Daizenshuu 2" stating "オバケのようなエネルギー体" (Ghost-like energy-body) is also evidence for this. "のような" is used to describe something "seems like" or "looks like" something else. So, it's stating it's an "Energy body that looks like/seems like a Ghost". And, that is it.

The text is just saying that Gotenks has a Ki attack (Whatever Ki means in DB) that has a will of its own and follows what Gotenks says, and that Ki has a shape that looks like a Ghost and Gotenks also calls it a Ghost. That is all.

Thank you for the help. Disagree with the NPI then.

Ectoplasm Manipulation could instead be rated as limited creation.

 

[TheTenno07]

Giving info so as not to see things out of control. This one there's a problem, the only kanji there are "状" "気", the others are Katakana (All of エクトプラズム) and hiragana (The の-particle indicating the relationship).

Looking at the meaning of individual Kanji is a helpful tool to find the intent of the phrase because many words share the same reading, it's a necessity depending on the case (It's not unusual for you to ask a teacher the meaning of some word and they request to know the kanji because the kanji will carry the intended meaning).

There are cases in which some extraordinary meaning is given by joining various kanji together, so looking at common usage is also sometimes a necessity (Which is why some stuff is always case by case, I'll never stop saying this). Also, dividing the kanji and putting them into MTL is not the same as doing the actual kanji meaning research, there is a lot of kanji that have intended meanings in Japanese but that can be used to describe varied English terms.


This is right. Just to explain, "エクトプラズム" is written using Katakana, which is a Japanese syllabary used mostly to describe words originating from outside of Japan, although you'll mostly find it being used to describe English words, like this case. It's written "Ekutopurazumu", which is just ectoplasm

The reason why a lot of TheTenno07's translation gave nonsense was because he was basically separating syllables, some of which have common usage on their own, while others didn't. If they instead used a corresponding word written with Kanji (Such as 幽物質), the results would be vastly different.

Anyway, "エクトプラズム状の気".
"気" is literally Ki, and as Nullflowerblush stated, these translations were very open to describe it in various ways, even though it's basically a keyword in Dragon Ball, so keeping it as "Ki" should be enough. The same thing happened with Janemba when statements of him being made of "Evil Ki" were being translated to "Evil Thoughts" or "Evil Spirits", even though the word already has enough context in DB to know what it means (Basically spiritual energy, has always been and I the Moro Arc even had a point in discussing this).

"状" does mean "Shape/appearance/form/state", so something akin to "Ectoplasm-shaped" isn't really wrong.

But yes, if you decide to translate it as "Ki of Ectoplasm-shape" or "Ectoplasm-state of Ki" wouldn't change that it's stating it's something made of Ki that is taking some form, so it's just Ki-control, but the Ki looks like a white ghost that explodes.

In fact, the following text makes that very clear:
"この気は自分で意思を持っており、またゴテンクスの命令に従って自由自在に動く。ゴテンクスは、この気をオバケと呼んでいた。"
"This Ki possesses a will of its own and moves completely in control of Gotenks' commands. Gotenks called this Ki a Ghost (Obake). "
The text constantly describes the attack by stating it's basically just Ki, they are ghosts made out of Ki. With this context, all the other images say the same.

The stuff from "Super Exciting Guide and Daizenshuu 4"
"気のオバケ" is "Ghost of Ki". "気のお化け" is the same, it's just written with Hiragana and Kanji instead of Katakana.

In fact, I think that "Daizenshuu 2" stating "オバケのようなエネルギー体" (Ghost-like energy-body) is also evidence for this. "のような" is used to describe something "seems like" or "looks like" something else. So, it's stating it's an "Energy body that looks like/seems like a Ghost". And, that is it.

The text is just saying that Gotenks has a Ki attack (Whatever Ki means in DB) that has a will of its own and follows what Gotenks says, and that Ki has a shape that looks like a Ghost and Gotenks also calls it a Ghost. That is all.

So does that mean it’s ectoplasm made from ki? Since ectoplasm is like a spirtual type of energy.

 

[Vietthai96]

The same thing happened with Janemba when statements of him being made of "Evil Ki" were being translated to "Evil Thoughts" or "Evil Spirits", even though the word already has enough context in DB to know what it means

Just to clarify something, the Kanji 邪念 which translated as Evil Thoughts or Evil Ideas for Janemba is completely different Kanji compare to the Kanji which is Ki. Or alternatively, based on your comment, in DB, Ki = Spirit = Thoughts/Ideas, based on contexts of the verse and how they using language to describe

 

[Executor_N0]

Just to clarify something, the Kanji 邪念 which translated as Evil Thoughts or Evil Ideas for Janemba is completely different Kanji compare to the Kanji which is Ki. Or alternatively, based on your comment, in DB, Ki = Spirit = Thoughts/Ideas, based on contexts of the verse and how they using language to describe

The one I mentioned was one from a video that was shared around with the Brazilian dub, which when checked with the original audio, did have the equivalent being 気. I'm sure that there are more terms that were used to describe Janemba, but the example I was giving was exclusively about the Brazilian dub that decided to translate 気 as "pensamentos" (thoughts).

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

The one I mentioned was one from a video that was shared around with the Brazilian dub, which when checked with the original audio, did have the equivalent being 気. I'm sure that there are more terms that were used to describe Janemba, but the example I was giving was exclusively about the Brazilian dub that decided to translate 気 as "pensamentos" (thoughts).

So does that mean it’s ectoplasm made from ki? Since ectoplasm is like a spirtual type of energy.

Hey, could you give your thoughts on what Tenno said? Since to my understanding ectoplasm is like a spiritual type of energy. So, is the context referring to it in that context, or no?

 

[Vietthai96]

The one I mentioned was one from a video that was shared around with the Brazilian dub, which when checked with the original audio, did have the equivalent being 気. I'm sure that there are more terms that were used to describe Janemba, but the example I was giving was exclusively about the Brazilian dub that decided to translate 気 as "pensamentos" (thoughts).

Ahh, the movie did use the audio Ki, but the Evil Thoughts/Ideas is from guidebooks, game. Iirc the movie said Jaku na Ki or something (Romaji is hard to write bruhh), which roughly translate as Evil Ki or Ki of Evil nature

 

[Executor_N0]

Hey, could you give your thoughts on what Tenno said? Since to my understanding ectoplasm is like a spiritual type of energy. So, is the context referring to it in that context, or no?

The terms were "has the shape of" and "looks like" were used, so the implication I got from it was more like "The Ki was changed in a way that it looks like this", but it doesn't mention anything about it changing its nature itself or anything like that, so I'm not sure.
Basically, I was only here to talk about the thing I knew a bit about, anything other than that, it's not me to decide.

 

[FanSyst]

Agree with Ectoplasm Manip

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good to me.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Looks good to me.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

When is Gotenks' attack implied to be intangible though? Resembling a ghost does not necessarily mean possessing all of the properties of a ghost.

I also disagree with NPI, but Limited Creation seems fine.

 

[Robo432343]

Looks good to me.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

When I said good, more so meant to respond to what Executor said. I think Ectoplasm creation is fine, but NPI looks iffy.