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Tier 0 try for The Quiet (Sun Eater)

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Lycenum_lycopersicum

Lycenum_lycopersicum

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Hello everyone, today I will be trying to apply for Tier 0 for The Quiet from Sun Eater series.

The Quiet is a character whose mystery was one of the driving plotlines of the story, however reveal of its true nature is like just 1 big chapter epiphany so idk if it will techniclly 'satisfy' the amount of evidence one needs, although i would argue insofar as it goes it is pretty straightforward.

The Quiet is The Absolute, which is perfection that doesn't rely on a reality 'to exist'. He is the Unmade Creator(the first cause), the eternal existence that ever was and would ever be, whose majesty cannot be understood by human mind. He is the being itself, and it is further defined that He is is(thus He is to be in its entirety), the existence which is One but also Many, which under the context of 'being' defined as simply 'to be'(which in its turn simply entails to be a distinct determinate entity) can allude to being without distinction. Furthermore it is added that suffusing the universe is an act of sustainence, tantamount of giving it meaning.

Just to explain thinking process of why it is Tier 0: Per Ultima's concern, while the ground of being is Tier 0, it should abide by philosophical(or at least as far as it is feasible within story) definition of a being, and so at face value with no elaboration of being it doesnt cut Tier 0. Within scans it is showed that Quiet is perfect absolute, unmade,eternal,simple/indistinct(one while/and many),ineffable he suffuses with reality that needs him in order to exist while he doesnt need it, thus susbsits by himself. Given all these premises, the statement that Absolute is being itself, that he is 'to be' isn't just an empty statement bereft of needed context, but in fact contextualizes Quiet's being to existence itself, all there 'to be' in entirety (something akin to Actus Purus or Ipsum Esse Subsistens one can say) and thus fits the bill for Tier 0

This is more or less whole relevant for his scaling info available, there would be one more final book of the series but it is not very likely to receive any info on him, at least the new one and not regurgitation of what I have already said.

Since verse is not present on wiki, I would like to link verse page and The Quiet page that can be added on wiki upon evaluation of this thread.

Agree: Super_Nova, TheTenno07, Seraphor12, Re5yh, Grabbing_dragon, Verezen, Udlmaster, ÆONS, Pluto321, Elyartaker,FinePoint (mod), ActuallySpaceMan42 (mod), Antvasima (admin)

Disagree:
 
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That's not what god is. God is being itself. God is is.
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Essence = existence
"He does not need any of us," Ragama said. "He is Absolute, and the Absolute is perfection. It is we who need him."
"To remake the universe?" I asked. "A universe without the Watchers?" "To exist," Ragama said, echoing the words of the Quiet himself. "It is not his reality that is in doubt, but yours, ours. What is at stake is not creation-there will always be another-but your place in it. Yours, and every one of your kind."
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Substinence + the act of sustaning existence
Everything that has a beginning has an end, Child, and so he can never be destroyed—for he was never made."
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Immutability
"It is not his existence he desires that is eternal. It is your existence and that of all the
worlds that he has made."
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Eternity stuff ig
I had communed with the Quiet upon that mountain on distant Annica, but in that instant, I knew that I had seen nothing, knew nothing, understood nothing of the majesty that was—that ever was, that ever would be.
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Ineffability + fully actualized
"The."
"One..." the two mouths said.
And together: "Who is Many."
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This is just simplicity I think
Quiet indeed, it suffused the universe, sustained it, gave it meaning.
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More on the sustaining thing.

Yea, I don’t see how this isn’t just blatantly Pure Act ngl. Put me on agree. Not that my vote matters tho
 
This is not enough for Tier 0. Most of the scans talk about how he is independent from everything, didn’t come into being, is eternal, and everything depends on him. Also, being oneness and manyness doesn’t fit Tier 0, like Ultima already said. So basically, he lacks the transcendence needed to be Tier 0.
 
Grabbing_dragon said:
This is not enough for Tier 0. Most of the scans talk about how he is independent from everything, didn’t come into being, is eternal, and everything depends on him. Also, being oneness and manyness doesn’t fit Tier 0, like Ultima already said. So basically, he lacks the transcendence needed to be Tier 0.
Click to expand...
the oneness/manyness isnt the main argument here. The main reason for Tier 0 is him being the being itself, with specifying that it is is, which is the required context of statements of 'ground of being' to be tier 0(since if being isnt specified it might not be enough)
 
Grabbing_dragon said:
This is not enough for Tier 0. Most of the scans talk about how he is independent from everything, didn’t come into being, is eternal, and everything depends on him. Also, being oneness and manyness doesn’t fit Tier 0, like Ultima already said. So basically, he lacks the transcendence needed to be Tier 0.
Click to expand...
Aside from what OP said above, it should be mentioned that resolving the distinction between one and many is a requirement for Tier 0, but Ultima makes it clear that it is not self-sufficient. The main point of this thread is to point out that the Quiet here, aside from just resolving that distinction, also lacks accidents and potential.
 
Lycenum_lycopersicum said:
the oneness/manyness isnt the main argument here. The main reason for Tier 0 is him being the being itself, with specifying that it is is, which is the required context of statements of 'ground of being' to be tier 0(since if being isnt specified it might not be enough)
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That’s the reason it is not enough here. “Being itself” and “that is is” just mean he basically exists without needing anything else. So basically, independence. here is an example of a mention of the ground of all being without context, and it wasn’t enough.
 
Grabbing_dragon said:
That’s the reason it is not enough here. “Being itself” and “that is is” just mean he basically exists without needing anything else. So basically, independence. here is an example of a mention of the ground of all being without context, and it wasn’t enough.
Click to expand...
The point here is that he is equivalent to all that his existence can be, with this scan just stating that the Quiet is all that could be:
I had communed with the Quiet upon that mountain on distant Annica, but in that instant, I knew that I had seen nothing, knew nothing, understood nothing of the majesty that was—that ever was, that ever would be.
Click to expand...
And obviously, this is in conjunction with him being equivalent to his own existence. This is absolutely not the same as subsistence, which is already shown in the other scans.
 
Grabbing_dragon said:
That’s the reason it is not enough here. “Being itself” and “that is is” just mean he basically exists without needing anything else. So basically, independence. here is an example of a mention of the ground of all being without context, and it wasn’t enough.
Click to expand...
the issue with this is that context of what 'being' is clarified in quote itself and emerges from supportive evidence. exhibit further:

1)Quiet is unmade, infinite existence, who doesnt depend on reality to subsist and suffuses reality, by which it sustains and it requires him in order to exist
2)Quiet has resolution for distinction as he is One and Many
3)Quiet is being itself, furthermore clarified that he is 'to be'
All this logically emerge to a conclusion of being meaning what Ultima wants it to mean in order to qualify for Tier 0
 
Most blatant and clear cut Tier 0 tbh
Lycenum_lycopersicum said:
Hello everyone, today I will be trying to apply for Tier 0 for The Quiet from Sun Eater series.

The Quiet is a character whose mystery was one of the driving plotlines of the story, however reveal of its true nature is like just 1 big chapter epiphany so idk if it will techniclly 'satisfy' the amount of evidence one needs, although i would argue insofar as it goes it is pretty straightforward.

The Quiet is The Absolute, which is perfection that doesn't rely on a reality 'to exist'. He is the Unmade Creator(the first cause), the eternal existence that ever was and would ever be, whose majesty cannot be understood by human mind. He is the being itself, and it is further defined that He is is(thus He is to be in its entirety), the existence which is One but also Many, which under the context of 'being' defined as simply 'to be'(which in its turn simply entails to be a distinct determinate entity) can allude to being without distinction. Furthermore it is added that suffusing the universe is an act of sustainence, tantamount of giving it meaning.

Just to explain thinking process of why it is Tier 0: Per Ultima's concern, while the ground of being is Tier 0, it should abide by philosophical(or at least as far as it is feasible within story) definition of a being, and so at face value with no elaboration of being it doesnt cut Tier 0. Within scans it is showed that Quiet is perfect absolute, unmade,eternal,simple/indistinct(one while/and many),ineffable he suffuses with reality that needs him in order to exist while he doesnt need it, thus susbsits by himself. Given all these premises, the statement that Absolute is being itself, that he is 'to be' isn't just an empty statement bereft of needed context, but in fact contextualizes Quiet's being to existence itself, all there 'to be' in entirety (something akin to Actus Purus or Ipsum Esse Subsistens one can say) and thus fits the bill for Tier 0

This is more or less whole relevant for his scaling info available, there would be one more final book of the series but it is not very likely to receive any info on him, at least the new one and not regurgitation of what I have already said.

Agree: Super_Nova, TheTenno07, Seraphor12, Re5yh, Grabbing_dragon

Disagree:
Click to expand...
 
From what I can see, The Quiet is basically the Actus Purus (or Subsistent Existence Itself) that has been described in Thomistic theology which is actually the basis for what we currently define as Tier 0 from what I remember. For that reason, I do strongly believe it qualifies for Tier 0.
 
FinePoint said:
It does seem to fit the definition, but I'd need knowledgeable supporters to weigh in on if there's ever any anti-feats (being affected in any way by literally anything) before I could say for certain.
Click to expand...
some of the knowledgeable users here already agreed with it fitting for tier 0 in above comments. i am pretty sure scans themselves state that everything that has beginning must end and Quiet can never be destroyed for he was never made in the first place. But i take it if more mods agree i could consider yours vote as agree along theirs, right?
 
Lycenum_lycopersicum said:
The Quiet page
Click to expand...
What about this for a better ap? It explains the reasons why he is Tier 0.
The Quiet is Absolute; Absolute is perfection and self-sufficient. Being God not in the sense of the highest being, but being itself that just is, which doesn't participate in being and non-being that everything participates in, as God is the eternal existence that didn't come into being, without beginning nor end, putting God beyond the contrast of essential and existential being that every being is contrasted to, and an ineffable existence that is the ground of existence itself, as it gives it meaning/essence and sustains it.
I disagree with Nonduality Type 2 and Acausality Type 5 because no logical negations have been proven for Nonduality. Also, eternal existence does not work for Acausality Type 5 in this context, since it is not eternal Now.
 
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Grabbing_dragon said:
What about this for a better ap? It explains the reasons why he is Tier 0.
The Quiet is Absolute; Absolute is perfection and self-sufficient. Being God not in the sense of the highest being, but being itself that just is, which doesn't participate in being and non-being that everything participates in, as God is the eternal existence that didn't come into being, without beginning nor end, putting God beyond the contrast of essential and existential being that every being is contrasted to, and an ineffable existence that is the ground of existence itself, as it gives it meaning/essence and sustains it.
I disagree with Nonduality Type 2 and Acausality Type 5 because no logical negations have been proven for Nonduality. Also, eternal existence does not work for Acausality Type 5 in this context, since it is not eternal Now.
Click to expand...
I am fine with your AP justifiction; I can remove nonduality type 2 and acausality type 5,sure.
 
Grabbing_dragon said:
What about this for a better ap? It explains the reasons why he is Tier 0.
The Quiet is Absolute; Absolute is perfection and self-sufficient. Being God not in the sense of the highest being, but being itself that just is, which doesn't participate in being and non-being that everything participates in, as God is the eternal existence that didn't come into being, without beginning nor end, putting God beyond the contrast of essential and existential being that every being is contrasted to, and an ineffable existence that is the ground of existence itself, as it gives it meaning/essence and sustains it.
I disagree with Nonduality Type 2 and Acausality Type 5 because no logical negations have been proven for Nonduality. Also, eternal existence does not work for Acausality Type 5 in this context, since it is not eternal Now.
Click to expand...
Acausality 5 is necessitated for Tier 0. If it weren’t immutable, then the Quiet would be subject to accidents and essence-existence distinctions, which would disqualify the tier.
 
Super_Nova said:
Acausality 5 is necessitated for Tier 0. If it weren’t immutable, then the Quiet would be subject to accidents and essence-existence distinctions, which would disqualify the tier.
Click to expand...
Tier 0 gets it by default if they meet the required feats and have no anti-feats. But when it comes to what they’ve demonstrated on their own (abilities to list on their profiles) , they get the same treatment as any other character. For Acausality Type 5, there needs to be a statement saying he is beyond causality and unchangeable as a result of it, which hasn’t been stated.
 
Lycenum_lycopersicum said:
some of the knowledgeable users here already agreed with it fitting for tier 0 in above comments. i am pretty sure scans themselves state that everything that has beginning must end and Quiet can never be destroyed for he was never made in the first place. But i take it if more mods agree i could consider yours vote as agree along theirs, right?
Click to expand...
In that case it's probably fine.
Also, Acausality Type 5 is guaranteed for Tier 0.
"Note that being utterly and totally immutable is something that, strictly speaking, is only guaranteed for characters with a Tier 0 rating."

Depending on cause and effect would disqualify them for Tier 0 entirely.
 
Grabbing_dragon said:
Tier 0 gets it by default if they meet the required feats and have no anti-feats. But when it comes to what they’ve demonstrated on their own (abilities to list on their profiles) , they get the same treatment as any other character. For Acausality Type 5, there needs to be a statement saying he is beyond causality and unchangeable as a result of it, which hasn’t been stated.
Click to expand...
That's not really how it works at all. God who is interpreted in a Thomistic sense, as I presume to be the case here, is someone whose pure essence/existence does not have any kind of causality to it because it is the uncaused cause to all causality; the first efficient cause. Being subject to causality destroys its absoluteness because by implying that there was a prior cause that resulted in God's existence, God cannot be the Greatest Possible Being and is subject to a higher existence. Therefore, God must be acausal and atemporal, without beginning or end and without cause or potential to be affected. These facts mean that it is impossible for The Quiet to not be acausal and that it also must be non-dual because it is the pure esssence/existence that unites being itself into a static unity that it necessarily encompasses to the core.

Feats are not required here because these traits are necessary for this Tier 0 being to have than not have.
 
Also I do have to ask, but Nonduality 2 should also be necessitated here, no? If we’re attributing the Quiet to Pure Act, then I am not sure how it doesn’t get the hax.
 
Just to make sure since I am not knowledgeable on what Tier 0 should get a priori and for what you should show specific application: I put Omnipotence,Omniscience,Omnipresent by default; and as far as i know Acas5 and Nonduality2 are also naturally in Tier 0(same way 1-A naturally gets BDE2), so idk if i should put them into P&A or not. if there is a standard or Ultima's comment specifying that it will be nice
 
ÆONS said:
Feats are not required here because these traits are necessary for this Tier 0 being to have than not have.
Click to expand...
Bruh, I already said they get it by default, but it’s not supposed to be listed under 'Specific applications that have been demonstrated are: [Regular list of powers here]' without feats.
Super_Nova said:
Also I do have to ask, but Nonduality 2 should also be necessitated here, no? If we’re attributing the Quiet to Pure Act, then I am not sure how it doesn’t get the hax.
Click to expand...
needs feats of transcending all logical negations. Like I said above , Tier 0 gets it by default, but it shouldn’t be listed on their profile without feats.
 
Lycenum_lycopersicum said:
Just to make sure since I am not knowledgeable on what Tier 0 should get a priori and for what you should show specific application: I put Omnipotence,Omniscience,Omnipresent by default; and as far as i know Acas5 and Nonduality2 are also naturally in Tier 0(same way 1-A naturally gets BDE2), so idk if i should put them into P&A or not. if there is a standard or Ultima's comment specifying that it will be nice
Click to expand...
vsbattles.com

The Dread Tiering System Revisions

Hi all. New Pages So: (P.S. Second one is the biggest, leave it for last if needed.) https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Ultima_Reality/thing https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Ultima_Reality/thingy https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Ultima_Reality/i_h...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
Lycenum_lycopersicum said:
Just to make sure since I am not knowledgeable on what Tier 0 should get a priori and for what you should show specific application: I put Omnipotence,Omniscience,Omnipresent by default; and as far as i know Acas5 and Nonduality2 are also naturally in Tier 0(same way 1-A naturally gets BDE2), so idk if i should put them into P&A or not. if there is a standard or Ultima's comment specifying that it will be nice
Click to expand...
this, from omnipotence page
Note, also, that Tier 0s are not necessarily active beings or conscious minds. As such, any reference to activity and consciousness is with regards to characters that do display such characterization.

Supraessential Existence: As it transcends all divisions and inequalities that qualify any given object as "This, not that" or "That, not this," a Tier 0 has no borders or outlines that delimit its existence, and in being totally unlimited, it thus exists as no particular thing whatsoever. Consequently, it has no soul or mind, exemplifies no universal, has no information defining it, nor is subject to any other metaphysical aspect.

Beyond-Dimensional Existence: By nature, a Tier 0 does not exist in dimensional space, not being circumscribed by any sort of numerical coordinate, nor taking up any sort of volume. Neither, for the matter, is it in a higher "meta-space," inasmuch as this still entails some notion (However disanalogous) of being in a specific location, apart from somewhere else, and thus a constricting particularity which must be transcended. In the truest sense, it is nowhere at all.

Omnipresence: As it is not constrained to any particular, qualified, specific mode of existence, it is, in another respect, also everywhere, insofar as its being and presence necessarily can reach into any form of existence.

Acausality: The absolute transcendence of a Tier 0 entails that they are completely self-sufficient and independent, not conditioned to anything prior to itself and deriving no intrinsic fact of its own existence from anything other than itself. As such, they are uncaused and all of their actions are wholly self-willed. As noted, they also transcend the idea of a progression between different states, and are as such immutable, being beyond the duality of "Before" and "After."

Creation: As it is prior to all else, a Tier 0's mode of bringing things into existence is totally unconditioned and does not depend on any extrinsic factors. Whereas conventional "Creation from nothing" simply entails actualizing things that were already possible, it instead generates and determines possibility itself. And whereas other things simply create things inside a setting where plurality and distinction already exists, a Tier 0 creates these very things to begin with.

Since a Tier 0 is unbound by time and change, its creation of all things must not be seen as any kind of event. Since it generates multiplicity and duality itself, this act of creation occuring "From nothing" must not be pictured as an entity creating the universe inside some void of emptiness, either (As that would imply a pre-existent distinct thing "alongside" the Tier 0 itself and in independence from it). The being, as it were, would have created the void itself instead.

Omniscience: Though a Tier 0 is not necessarily a conscious being with agency, it nevertheless encompasses and expresses all possible information in itself. Therefore, if it is analogous to a mind, it, by necessity, must be omniscient.

Note, however, that this Omniscience may function similarly to Omnipotence itself. That is, a Tier 0 may "not know" some things, not because of any limitation in its knowledge, but because certain pieces of information are simply not truth-apt to begin with. For example, a Tier 0 may not have objective answers to moral questions (Even if it perfectly knows all possible answers to all such questions) because objective morality simply does not exist in the verse in question.

Immortality: As a corollary of its transcendence and immutability, a Tier 0 is utterly indestructible, and moreover, completely independent and autonomous.
Due to the aforementioned factors, Tier 0 page formatting is quite different from that of lower-tiered profiles. In terms of Powers and Abilities, it should be structured as follows: "Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Omniscience (optional). Specific applications that have been demonstrated are: [Regular list of powers here]."

As for other statistics:

Click to expand...
 
Lycenum_lycopersicum said:
Just to make sure since I am not knowledgeable on what Tier 0 should get a priori and for what you should show specific application: I put Omnipotence,Omniscience,Omnipresent by default; and as far as i know Acas5 and Nonduality2 are also naturally in Tier 0(same way 1-A naturally gets BDE2), so idk if i should put them into P&A or not. if there is a standard or Ultima's comment specifying that it will be nice
Click to expand...
Nonduality is weird. It use to be on tier 0 page that a tier 0 was nondual but that got removed due to nonduality just being a weird logic defying state of existence.
 
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