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The Watcher vs. Doctor Strange

Imaginym said:
If I may ask, how is Dr. Strange's sealing performed?
Click to expand...
He can do it in a varieety of ways. Like, he can use the Orb of Agamotto, which's powerful enough to seal Strange himself; or he could seal The Watcher into a pocket dimension; or he could do whatever he did to the In-Betweener.
 
Yes, he can Seal things that way, but HOW does he do it? Does he hold up the object? Does it activate independently of him? Does he have to chant? Write? Draw sigils? Does it glow? Does he need to concentrate energy into it?

Against a magic user who gesticulates & speaks when casting, in a speed equalized match, those would be signs Strange is doing something, & performing those actions creates an opportunity to act.

The Watcher might waste time trying ways of killing a normal human on Strange (Supposing it doesn't observe him portalling, flying or teleporting first.), but a window of opportunity. Ex: Age Manipulation, attempting transmutation, are what come to mind.

Also, does Doctor Strange himself have Resistance to Time Stop? His equipment can time manipulate & resist it, but does it act independently &/or automatically?
 
The Eye of Agamotto acts alone, IIRC. It would most likely protect Strange from the Time Stop.

Also, Age Manip won't work on Strange due to Type 1 Immortality.

Transmutation won't work because shapeshifting (and he can still use his powers while in another form).

For all you're saying, it looks like The Watcher would do something that would most likely not work and then get lol sealed.

Now, here's a scan about how he could do it. Activates with a thought.
 
The type 1 was already discussed. It works on Vampires and such as well too.

But I don't see it winning either.

If anyone can come up with a way it can win then strange fra, if not stomp.
 
@Archdemon: Thank you for the information. Also, do you mean Age Manipulation wouldn't work as in "You can't kill Strange via aging him to death"? Because I know that. The Watcher might waste time doing that, but de-aging him is a potential way to cripple his body (Hindering his gesticulation & speech for spells.), mind & immune system, leading into Biological Manipulation strategies, as I've indicated in my above posts.

"For all you're saying, it looks like The Watcher would do something that would most likely not work and then get lol sealed."

As far as I know, other than observing Strange do magic, there isn't much stopping it assuming he's a weird new Sim &, assuming the first resort Mind Control fails, idiotically trying ways of killing Strange that would never work. Trying to drown him, trap him, throw him in a volcano, etc.

Although it could be argued that if Strange doesn't have a way of knowing about The Watcher, he might try ineffective tactics, too.

What are his usual in-character approaches to beings he doesn't know of? Would he attack with magical beams? Scry to learn about it? There's also the matter of The Watcher being Incorporeal & Deathless which could also lead to some uninformed actions being ineffective.
 
I suppose this could work, then. But then again, if The Watcher wastes any time here, he's lost. he's most likely going to lose anyway, imagine if he feels like wasting time to test theories.

I see Strange winning this more times than not. After all, it is fairly in-character for him to seal extradimensional entities on the spot. You guys just put him against the type of enemy he fights the most.

Voting Strange 6 or even 7/10.
 
Does Strange have sealing other than the Orb of Agamotto? Agamotto himself using it, it looks like it encased him. Magically, yes, but Strange is a man. I'd presume he was corporeal at the time. Can it do so for an Incorporeal being? Does he have Sealing that can?
 
I know what abstral projection is.

But the projection itself is not non-coporeal, it is merely intangible. There is a huge difference.
 
I have no clue if Strange's which of Non-Corporeal or Intangible Strange's Astral Form is, but supposing he does usually lead with Sealing IC, is the Orb of Agamotto the kind of Sealing he usually starts with?
 
The Archdemon said:
WTF
The projection's literally the sorcerer's soul, and souls are not corporeal, you know.
Click to expand...
No. Souls vary depending fiction, and that is blatantly not non-corporeal.

It has a defined shape. That is the antithesis to non-corporeal.
 
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Non-Corporeal

Quoting it, in part:

Non-Corporeal (or Incorporeal) beings are those who have no true physical form. Though they may have physical avatars or bodies, but their true essence exists non-physically, whether as a soul, as energy, or as an abstract concept. Being non-corporeal is very different than Intangibility, as an intangible being's body is their true body, it just can't be affected by conventional physical forces. A non-corporeal being does not usually have any kind of concrete, defined form, and can appear in many different forms if they wish, though the destruction of these bodies is of little relevance to the entity behind them.

Abstract beings are typically non-corporeal.

Killing Non-Corporeal Beings
Incorporeal beings can be killed through;

 
I mean, he's known for recurrently sealing Abstract such as The In-Betweener.

And, going by the lore given by the OP and knowing Strange's way of doing things, he would not commit such an amateur's mistake of using a sealing that could malfunction (in the case he's got any).

Alo, even if he did, and we consider that both the Watcher and Strange lost "one turn", Strange still leads the fight, since sealing's not the only way of Strange winning (power steal, powernull, mindhax etc are still things) while the Watcher's only apparent way is to turn Strange into a baby (and assuming he would try do it immediately after failing to age Strange to death).
 
Turning him into a baby isn't really a way to win, just a strategy to win; The point is to impede Strange moving & speaking for his spells, & cripple his immune system, THEN afflict him with diseases via Biological Manipulation; Illnesses as win con works much better when your opponent is too physically impaired to cast their healing spells.

Also, the info in the OP is that people have changed in personality, new people have suddenly appeared, & one person starved. While it hints at a supernatural being, it may not give away noncorporeality or much other than Mind Manipulation, Creation &... Matter Manipulation to rebuild the house??

Technically, The Watcher also has Power Nullification, too, apparently. Its Matter Manipulation, Time Travel, Transmutation, & Probability Manipulation might also have uses, but I'm not sure.

(Pardon the length of this debate.)
 
Imaginym said:
Also, the info in the OP is that people have changed in personality, new people have suddenly appeared, & one person starved. While it hints at a supernatural being, it may not give away noncorporeality or much other than Mind Manipulation, Creation &... Matter Manipulation to rebuild the house??
Click to expand...
It also says

"After a bit of investigating, he links it all back to The Player, who had just discovered Steven and is all too happy to try to add him to his collection of Sims."
A bit of investigating is enough for Strange to realize the kind of foe he's dealing with.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
The Archdemon said:
WTF
The projection's literally the sorcerer's soul, and souls are not corporeal, you know.
Click to expand...
No. Souls vary depending fiction, and that is blatantly not non-corporeal.
It has a defined shape. That is the antithesis to non-corporeal.
Click to expand...
I can't even begin to describe the problems I have with this argument...
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
Well, you'd better start, because a non-corporeal does not have a defined shape, and that obviously did.
Click to expand...
You mean the physical appearance? That's just the writers' way of showing who the astral forms belong to. You're really going to try and discount the form's non-corporeal nature just because it looks like a person? Because if that's the case, I can point to plenty of other examples in Marvel Comics alone that disprove the argument in a hilarious fashion.

Speaking of, this is Marvel Comics we're talking about, where there is a clear distinction made between characters who are "just intangible" (see: Kitty Pryde) and things that are fully non-corporeal. But if you really need proof that the astral forms are more than just intangible, this is a short fight Strange had with Mordo while both were in their astral forms, where they're even described as doing battle in a different plane of existence from the physical one.

Of course, even ignoring all that, since when have we ever considered the form of a person's soul to be anything less than non-corporeal? I have yet to see a single instance of that which we actually allowed to stick, and I've been dicking around on this website for roughly three years now.
 
He formed a barrier around it that forced it couldn't escape. A non-corporeal showcasing themself with what looks like a shape is one thing, putting a barrier around that shape making them unable to move is just plain against what a non-corporeal is.

Not being the phasing kind of intangible does not make you non-corporeal. Being in a different plane of existence is litirally a type of intangibility. The Spatial kind. It does not mean that they have no true form or shape. The fact that they retained their shape and were punching each other does not help your case.

And again, using other verses doesn't matter. But when the soul actually has a shown shape that it cannot change, like in soul eater, than it is merely intangible.
 
From the Intangibility page:

Immaterial: This type of intangibility allows the user to phase through most attacks due to not being made up of a physical substance, such as ghosts or characters who merely exist as a disembodied soul. It also includes characters that are made up of things like energy. Of course, this intangibility type still has its own weaknesses - a soul is vulnerable to soul manipulation, for example.
 
Literally disproves nothing, considering how Classic Strange's magic works.

Part of your problem here is that you're assuming non-corporeal entities don't have a form at all, which is wrong. Non-corporeal entities simply don't have a physical form.

Denying something non-corporeality because "it can't change its form" is a fallacy in and of itself, and I really shouldn't have to explain why. Doubly so when said thing's appearance is superficial and only exists for the reader to know what they're looking at.
 
A non-corporeal being does not usually have any kind of concrete, defined form, and can appear in many different forms if they wish, though the destruction of these bodies is of little relevance to the entity behind them. Even if they can't change their form, they simply fall under Incorporeal Intangibility.

"Denying something non-corporeality because "it can't change its form" is a fallacy in and of itself, and I really shouldn't have to explain why. Doubly so when said thing's appearance is superficial and only exists for the reader to know what they're looking at. "

I am denying they are non-corporeal because they have a constant concrete form, not because they can't change it. The astral projection fits Immaterial Intangibility perfectly.

"And again, show me an instance where we've ever taken someone's soul as being less than non-corporeal."

This is a fallacy. What others do does not remotly make you or me right. And again, the Intangibility page has a section for disembodied souls.
 
Since we're pulling quotes from wiki pages now:

Non-Corporeal (or Incorporeal) beings are those who have no true physical form. Though they may have physical avatars or bodies, but their true essence exists non-physically, whether as a soul, as energy, or as an abstract concept.
~ The Non-Corporeal page​
This is all the micdrop I need.
 
Yes. A soul can certainly be non-corporeal.

But this doesn't counter anything I said, because the fact that they can be does not make them all that.

They fall under Incorporeal iIntangibility, or Spatial (or both). They fit the description perfectly, and making a forcefield around a being with no form outside of reality would not work, making what strange showed there useless against the Watcher.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
and making a forcefield around a being with no form outside of reality would not work, making what strange showed there useless against the Watcher.
Click to expand...
Are you sure? That's Dormammu, natural enemy of Strange (who should be able to replicate just about anything Dormammu does, and who later freed Eternity from that sealing), doing exactly that against Eternity himself.

It looks like you don't actually know how magic works.

And come on, I don't even know why you are still arguing about this, since Strange has already sealed non-corporeal beings such as The In-Betweener before and was shown to be able to affect abstract such as Eternity, Death and Galactus with his magic.
 
"Incorporeal/Immaterial Intangibility"

You mean the kind of intangibility that comes from being incorporeal? Because that's what that section is describing. Quite blatantly.
 
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