The VS Battles Wiki and Undertale (spoilers)

[WarriorWare]

Pretty soon, with the great success that Undertale is seeing, we're going to be needing some VS Battles Wiki for its characters. However, since it's an RPG reminiscent of games made forever ago, pinpointing power levels is going to be very, very difficult. I'm going to need some help figuring out how to go about doing these.

First of all, let's get this out of the way: Monsters in Undertale are not sub-human. Or at least not the ones that anyone would care about using in a VS debate. It's their souls that are weaker than those of humans, not their bodies. There are two key reasons why a little kid like Frisk is able to kill them all so easily: determination, and Chara's soul within them. The human soul, at least in the Undertale universe, is very powerful, and it only takes seven of them to achieve universal power, as Flowey so gladly demonstrated.

So, I think these are a few key things to keep in mind:

Omega Flowey is definitely universal, able to delete your save file, crash your game, and create his own world to fight Frisk in. Asriel, with the human souls and every monster soul except Napstablook's, was just about to destroy the world (the game blatantly says "The world is ending").

Whatever speed feats Frisk has, Sans scales. He casually dodges Frisk's attacks by the dozen in the Genocide route. However, Frisk's speed feats are...well, there may not really be any. In gameplay, Frisk intentionally near-misses speeding jets and dodges lightning attacks, but those might not count.

Undyne is...disappointing. She was able to split a table in half by throwing a spear, benchpress seven kids (not as impressive as it sounds, given it's a school that Toriel runs and ergo likely an elementary school), and was able to break concrete just by slapping it out of laughter. Those are impressive feats by real-life standards, but by fictional standards, not so much.

Are there any good feats I don't know about? I only beat the Pacifist and True Pacifist routes.

 

[ThePerpetual]

Hmmm. Well, my friend (who's beaten the whole thing, and will not spoil it for me) says that the characters are anywhere from Mountain Level to Universal+ IIRC, but until I get the game for myself I'm aftraid I can't help. i'll be keeping an eye on this, though...

Also, before anyone asks, yes, save files are canon to the game in that they are entire timelines. I already know that much.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I'd love to see some Undertale profiles.

I can definitely verify that Omega Flowey is easily universal+, essentially "deleting" entire timelines. Also, if I remember correctly, doesn't he retain memory of different timelines, as well?

 

[Undylan]

Off-Topic, I heard of Undertale before and it's getting famous of some short.

Is it good like earthbound and such?

 

[ThePerpetual]

And I'm fairly certain that Sans > The rest of the cast, from what I gather?

 

[WarriorWare]

As someone who has played EarthBound, almost all main-series Pokemon games (skipping gen 4 for no real reason), most of the Zelda series, the entire Battle Network series, Shovel Knight, a lot of Mario games, Dark Souls 2, and every single Paper Mario game, I will say that Undertale is my favorite game of all time.

...Come to think of it, I play a disturbingly low amount of AAA titles, especially outside of Nintendo.

Anyway, I'd love to see justification for anyone in Undertale being mountain level.

What about base Flowey? Is there any place we can put him?

(I used to think Flowey vs. Kyubey was a good idea but then I found out Kyubey can't do anything and Flowey can do everything lol)

Without spoiling anything, no, Sans is not the strongest character in the game, or even the strongest boss. Not even close. I don't know how I can say this nicely, but you, Mr. Perpetual, might not want to be here until you've played Undertale. There's a spoiler warning in the title for a reason.

 

[The_Everlasting]

@WarriorWare

While I haven't played (Or even heard of) Undertale, Omega Flowey can delete entire timelines, which is easily Low 2-C. Not sure about Base Flowey though.

 

[WarriorWare]

See, Base Flowey is the problem, since Omega Flowey isn't exactly a form he can easily take.

Question, though: Would Frisk's durability scale to Omega Flowey's DC? Or do we assume Frisk only survives because Flowey is specifically attacking Frisk's soul?

 

[The_Everlasting]

How does he transform into Omega Flowey anyway?

 

[WarriorWare]

I'd much rather you play the game and find out...but you entered a topic with a spoiler warning, so whatever.

He acquires this form by absorbing seven human souls. It's hard to say how easily he could gather them himself, though, since the souls he absorbed were gathered by Asgore.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I can help, considering I've played the game. Base Flowey is likely just...I dunno...10-B? He nearly killed Frisk at the beginning of the game, but he mostly survived just by staying in the shadows.

Omega Flowey is a casual Low 2-C, which is very impressive.

Frisk...I'm honestly not sure. The whole deal is in the world of Undertale, a powerful soul can conquer almost anything. Frisk's soul was so powerful that he beat up a casual universe destroyer. I would assume, when "energies are equalized" in vs matches, yeah. Endgame Frisk is likely at least low 2-C, as well.

I can't even think of how to scale someone like Mettaton, at the moment.

I'm actually replaying now for some more feats.

@Everlasting

Sans definitely isn't the strongest character, but he's deceptively strong.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I also forgot that if you spare Asgore, Flowey does indeed kill him, but Asgore was severely weakened and his guard was down, so I don't think that should scale to base Flowey.

 

[WarriorWare]

On the other hand, LV1 Frisk can take hits from Toriel (who rekt Asgore) much better than from Flowey, even at the same level. Frisk doesn't even get any better armor between those two instances.

Though it is extremely possible that Toriel was holding back.

Doesn't he also show to be able to absorb monster souls fairly easily? In base form, he was instantly able to bind Toriel, Asgore, Undyne, and several others in an instant, then absorb their souls.

Guuuuys, I really don't like saying this stuff if people who haven't played Undertale are around. These are really big spoilers.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I'm pretty sure Toriel was holding back. Remember, when you fight her in the ruins, it's almost impossible to lose unless you force yourself to. Her attacks even deliberately miss you when you get too weak.

Yeah, but that would probably go more under Flowey's abilities than raw power.

 

[WarriorWare]

I believe it is revealed in the Genocide route that Flowey is perfectly capable of saving and resetting in base form, and did it all the time before Frisk showed up. The only reason why he can't do it until he gets the six (not seven, pardon me) human souls is that Frisk's Determination so vastly exceeded his own.

Without Frisk around, Flowey can totally save and load and such. I'll have too look further into the details later, but apparently, before Frisk showed up, Flowey saved and reset until he could see every single possible scenario that he could have had any hand in creating...and that includes killing everyone. Which is...very confusing considering that he did so poorly against Toriel and couldn't kill Asgore easily. Maybe Flowey had just reset when Frisk showed up, and thus had his LV back down to 1?

 

[HomestuckLover1]

Frisk is definitely universal via resetting timelines and other junk that probably shouldn't be spoiled.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Frisk is definitely universal via resetting timelines and other junk that probably shouldn't be spoiled.

Endgame Frisk and Omega Flowey, yeah. However, it's hard to determine the power of a lot of characters under them.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I believe it is revealed in the Genocide route that Flowey is perfectly capable of saving and resetting in base form, and did it all the time before Frisk showed up. The only reason why he can't do it until he gets the six (not seven, pardon me) human souls is that Frisk's Determination so vastly exceeded his own.
Without Frisk around, Flowey can totally save and load and such. I'll have too look further into the details later, but apparently, before Frisk showed up, Flowey saved and reset until he could see every single possible scenario that he could have had any hand in creating...and that includes killing everyone. Which is...very confusing considering that he did so poorly against Toriel and couldn't kill Asgore easily. Maybe Flowey had just reset when Frisk showed up, and thus had his LV back down to 1?

I honestly wouldn't doubt he'd just reset. However, this makes it INCREDIBLY hard to tier base Flowey, as our only frame of reference for him is nearly killing beginning of the game Frisk, getting owned by Toriel, and killing an incredibly weakened Asgore.

 

[HomestuckLover1]

Endgame Frisk and Omega Flowey, yeah. However, it's hard to determine the power of a lot of characters under them.

I definitely think Papyrus, Undyne, Asgore, and "certain" others should be at least multi galaxy+ to universal.

 

[WarriorWare]

Can't say I'm with you there, HSL. I know what you're basing that scaling on and it's SUPER iffy. Those are among the stronger monster souls needed to rival a single human soul, yes, but Flowey needed six souls to get to where he was and seven to become "God."

I wouldn't buy galaxy level Papyrus if it was on clearance.

 

[HomestuckLover1]

They're still able to damage AND defeat you, so they scale, no matter what.

 

[HomestuckLover1]

Also, because Frisk managed to dodge the instant absorption of the universe and tank it, he should be MFTL+

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I have no idea if that can be used to determine Frisk's speed, but Flowey wasn't exactly bound by the concept of time, so it's possible they'd both just be "immeasurable" (again, only for endgame Frisk and Omega Flowey).

 

[HomestuckLover1]

Well, nothing really suggests Frisk becomes stronger in any way, unless you play the genocide route and acquire LOVE, so I don't really think Endgame Frisk and Regular Frisk should be separate.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Well, nothing really suggests Frisk becomes stronger in any way, unless you play the genocide route and acquire LOVE, so I don't really think Endgame Frisk and Regular Frisk should be separate.

You're forgetting a strong growth in Frisk's determination and will, which is a legit power-up in the world of Undertale. Remember how easily Flowey nearly killed him at the very beginning? Even in the pacifist playthrough, Frisk's will grows.

 

[HomestuckLover1]

True I guess. But I still don't see the need to divide the two in his profile, since it's his current stats.

That would be like dividing Pre Eight Melodies Ne- *Notices that the two actually are divided*

........Nevermind

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Pffff well it fits, I suppose. Frisk is a bit like Ness, albeit more (or less) murdery depending on how you play.

 

[HomestuckLover1]

Maybe Beginning Frisk is like low wall level? *shrugs*

I still think Undyne, Papyrus, etc. should scale considerably, since Undyne is able to keep up with the player at his strongest during the Genocide Route (and Undyne mentions herself that Papyrus is pretty good at fighting, and if he weren't even the slightest bit on her level, she wouldn't say that), and so is Sans able to put Frisk on edge

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yeah, but I'd definitely give regular Undyne and Undyne the Undying (genocide version) separate tiers, as the form she takes in the genocide run seems to be considerably stronger.

 

[HomestuckLover1]

Yeah, but I'd definitely give regular Undyne and Undyne the Undying (genocide version) separate tiers, as the form she takes in the genocide run seems to be considerably stronger.

I agree.

This still leaves us with Papyrus tho... The dude should at least be comparable to his bro right? If not then at least comparable to End Game Frisk or Undyne.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I'd assume Papyrus would be at the very least only slightly weaker than Sans.

 

[HomestuckLover1]

Exactly what I was thinking

 

[WarriorWare]

Maybe, but I don't know. It is important to note that Papyrus didn't want to kill Frisk at all. Arguably, he was less willing to kill them than Toriel, since Toriel actually ca kill Frisk if you screw up badly enough.

Isn't it safe to assume that Frisk gets better armor between their bout with Papyrus and their fight with, say, Undyne?

I'm just trying to wrap my head around the concept of a bloodlusted Papyrus...we just flat-out never see that or even a fighting-mad version of him in Undertale, not even in a Genocide route, so who knows what he could do? Still, there's not really much reason to scale Papyrus to Sans, since Papyrus likely doesn't even know that Sans ca fight.

It's important to note that Undyne only comments about how strong Papyrus is in the Neutral/Pacifist routes. AKA, the route in which Undyne the Undying never becomes a thing.

I'm also not fully certain about genocide Frisk being on the same level as True Pacifist Frisk in terms of durability. You only face one universal character in the genocide route, and...it doesn't go so well.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Maybe, but I don't know. It is important to note that Papyrus didn't want to kill Frisk at all. Arguably, he was less willing to kill them than Toriel, since Toriel actually ca kill Frisk if you screw up badly enough.
Isn't it safe to assume that Frisk gets better armor between their bout with Papyrus and their fight with, say, Undyne?

I'm just trying to wrap my head around the concept of a bloodlusted Papyrus...we just flat-out never see that or even a fighting-mad version of him in Undertale, not even in a Genocide route, so who knows what he could do? Still, there's not really much reason to scale Papyrus to Sans, since Papyrus likely doesn't even know that Sans ca fight.

It's important to note that Undyne only comments about how strong Papyrus is in the Neutral/Pacifist routes. AKA, the route in which Undyne the Undying never becomes a thing.

I'm also not fully certain about genocide Frisk being on the same level as True Pacifist Frisk in terms of durability. You only face one universal character in the genocide route, and...it doesn't go so well.

I don't think Papyrus can be bloodlusted. After all, Undyne said he was a good fighter, but she felt he was far too innocent and nice to be in the royal guard. Like you said, he was never willing to kill Frisk, and will even just let him go if you purposefully fail against him enough times.

I agree that he shouldn't scale to Undyne the Undying, as she's genocide exclusive.

On the subject of Frisks in terms of power, I'm fairly certain Neutral is the strongest. He actually defeated Omega Flowey, who is the second strongest monster in the game. Pacifist Frisk survived against Asriel with the power of seven souls, but he didn't "defeat" him. He simply survived and managed to make Asriel lose this power by calling out to the souls of his friends within him. However, I'm not selling Pacifist Frisk short. He easily has the highest durability, as Asriel, even with the power of 7 human souls, even after becoming God, couldn't kill him. Hell, even if he reduces Frisk's HP to 0 in the fight, his soul just pulls itself back together and refuses to be destroyed.

 

[WarriorWare]

The True Pacifist ending can only be unlocked by completing the Neutral Ending first. If Frisk doesn't gain any EXP to begin with, they don't even have to reset. Ergo, it stands to reason that Neutral Ending Frisk and True Pacifist Frisk are the same person. Frisk is one of a few characters who remembers the events of previous timelines.

Also, Frisk doesn't take Omega Flowey down with their own strength in any ending. Hadn't the other human souls intervened, Frisk would have been toast.

When I was musing about a bloodlusted Papyrus, I was speaking more of how he'd act in a Death Battle. The only difference between him and Pacifist Frisk, as far as methods are concerned, is success.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I know that the true pacifist ending can only be unlocked by going through neutral, first. I was going by the fact that neutral Frisk and pacifist Frisk are the same person, but can have different stats depending on your choices.

Yes, Frisk didn't take down Omega Flowey on his own, but he did actually harm him, which he certainly couldn't do to Asriel.

Also, speaking of Asriel, how should his profile be handled? As in, should it be split from Flowey's to avoid too many spoilers?

 

[WarriorWare]

I dunno. That said, obviously Asriel > Omega Flowey, so True Pacifist Frisk not damaging him makes plenty of sense, and you can very well beat Omega Flowey without killing anyone prior. Kind of a can of worms, I guess.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Indeed, as Asriel had the equivalent of 7 souls, whereas Omega Flowey only had 6.

Also, as I said, how should the whole Asriel/Flowey thing be handled? They're technically the same being, but also different. Should they get different profiles or the same one? And if it's the same one, what should it be named?

 

[WarriorWare]

They're listed as separate characters on most Wikis as well as TVTropes. That said, Asriel is essentially one of Flowey's "final forms," so I guess we'd have them share a page. I've seen much bigger spoilers on this wiki (Yuri from Shadow Hearts' page has official art of a pretty big spoiler as the preview image, for instance, and tells every single detail of his story). Explaining a character's power level without spoiling anything at all is quite often not possible.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

True, true. I'm actually more concerned about just causing confusion with the whole naming thing. We could possibly give them each a page (as Asriel tried to make it clear that he wasn't himself while he was Flowey), having one for Flowey and Omega Flowey, and another for Asriel and...whatever the hell Asriel's final form is called.