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Perhaps, ask them for their source.
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The Use Of Momentum And Mass To Calculate Speed
- Thread starter Vapourrrrr
- Start date
- 800
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- Thread starter
- #82
Its literally just the basic principles of momentum
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You did not read what I said in the slightest, and I know you didn't, because if you did you would realise the issue I'm bringing up.
I agreed with this point. The total momentum is conserved, that's the entire point of this.
The velocity is -7500 (i.e in the opposite direction), not the momentum. This is almost Mach 22.
If characters do not have feats on this level, this is an issue.
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- Thread starter
- #84
The whole point of this CRT is for a feat of a character, look at it before we continue this, it isn't an outlier, although this can be considered as a set of rules for the use of momentum I don't think its dismissing the Mikey feat
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- Thread starter
- #85
Do you have any problems with my other argument ?
- 9,387
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I see your point.
So during the final momentum Hulk is moving backwards at 7500m/s to conserve momentum. This is recoil, non combat applicable.
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- Thread starter
- #87
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you cant ping staff
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- Thread starter
- #89
not that deep, was waiting for a response since its been a day
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he doesn't mean "you can't" as in "you'll get in trouble", he means "you can't" as in "it literally will not work"
regular users do not have the permissions to ping staff
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- Thread starter
- #91
That makes sense, I guess I'll have to wait,
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The topic is the law of conservation of momentum not just finding speed from momentum.
And I had no idea you responded yesterday.
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They obviously are related. The absolute value of momentum and KE are related by sqrt(2*KE*mass) = |momentum|.
The direction is lost, but that's of little consequence.
The point is, as said, you can literally take any KE calc and just reformulate it into a momentum calc. Just use the above formula to get momentum of an object from the KE and then perform the momentum calc.
So yeah, it's obviously not in the spirit of the rule to allow the same calc after swapping some units around.
Also, again, the spirit of the rule is to separate strength feats from speed feats. And its obvious that you can't have a high momentum feat, without it also being a high KE feat and hence a high AP feat. Since momentum is m*v, for any one object (i.e. m fixed), imbuing it with a large amount of momentum means to increase v, which means that Ke, which is 0.5*m*v^2, will simultaneously increase.
So yeah, it would be against the spirit of existing standards in every way to allow it. In practice, it's just an alternative speed from KE formulation.
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One obviously necessitates the other.
If we don't believe KE needs to have speed, then we also don't think momentum needs to have speed, which inevitably leads to conservation of momentum not working. Just like conservation of energy inevitably doesn't work in fiction.
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OP was rejected by CGM, I think this thread can be closed now
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- Thread starter
- #96
They are different though and represent different aspects of motion
For you to decline a SCIENTIFIC METHOD is a big thing, momentum has nothing to do with AP
Your saying you can't have a high momentum feat without it being a high AP feat, this makes no sense, you also can't have a high speed feat in general without having a high AP feat, are we now going to decline the use of speed = d / t ?
There is nothing wrong with ignoring the AP side of it because it fundamentally ruins the existence of speed feats in general, for example if someone speed blitzes someone and has to move at 1000 m/s, the steps they take should destroy the ground, does this mean because they don't destroy the ground we ignore the speed part of it ? No, using momentum to find speed is a safe way for many calcs
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- Thread starter
- #97
stop trying to rush the thread
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Why isn’t this a case by case anyway. Remember we don’t even accept getting AP from KE unless the destruction is consistent with it. Wouldn’t conservation of energy work for KE feats like that?
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- Thread starter
- #99
Coming back to this to make my point more clear
Your saying "you can't have a high momentum feat, without it also being a high KE feat and hence a high AP feat"
This would make every speed feat inapplicable because feats where characters can be seen moving at speeds of 500 m/s don't cause any damage to their surroundings even though they generate forces of multiple megajoules, I just don't get your point
Your saying "If we don't believe KE needs to have speed, then we also don't think momentum needs to have speed"
Momentum is literally made for speed and has nothing to do with AP, breaking it down your saying its okay to ignore the AP side of speed = D / T but not okay to ignore the AP side of Speed = P / M when they're both equations made to calculate speed
Your saying "you can't have a high momentum feat, without it also being a high KE feat and hence a high AP feat"
This would make every speed feat inapplicable because feats where characters can be seen moving at speeds of 500 m/s don't cause any damage to their surroundings even though they generate forces of multiple megajoules, I just don't get your point
Your saying "If we don't believe KE needs to have speed, then we also don't think momentum needs to have speed"
Momentum is literally made for speed and has nothing to do with AP, breaking it down your saying its okay to ignore the AP side of speed = D / T but not okay to ignore the AP side of Speed = P / M when they're both equations made to calculate speed
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- Thread starter
- #100
Bump, I think
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Disagree FRA.
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- #102
How so ? Is there any reason as to why you disagree with an equation ?
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Using momentum to calc speed would fall under calc stacking.
And isn't the only formula for calcing momentum p = mv, ergo you can't possibly calc momentum without knowing what the velocity is?
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- Thread starter
- #104
I don't think you understand what calc stacking is
Well, I'll explain it, Momentum is a concept in physics that describes the quantity of motion an object possesses, the formula for momentum (p) is:
p = m * v
The concept of momentum is used when dealing with moving objects with mass, for example kicking someone like the Mikey feat
Using momentum is best when considering interactions between objects compared to D / T which is best used when the motion is linear and continuous. For instance, if you want to find the speed of an object moving in a straight line, you can use the formula v = d / t (this is for new people coming to the thread btw)
I don't get your point, watch this video for a better understanding though
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1. I do but I'll shelve it for now.
2. The Mikey calc you linked doesn't work because if we were to use the method linked in your calc, something like this would happen:
Let's say you have two average boxers, one average boxer punches another average boxer and that boxer falls to the ground.
The average boxer punches at 25 MPH (11 m/s)
Now, middle weigh boxers are 72.5KG ergo both are boxers in this example are 72.5KG
The average forearm and hand weight of a person is 2.52% so the arm weight of our hypothetical average boxer would be 1.827KG
Now I am going to use the same formula in that Mikey kicking Taiju calc.
Momentum = (72.5 + 1.827)*11 = 817.597
Velocity = Momentum/Weight =817.597/1.827 = 447.5 m/s
So yea, with this, we have just wanked up a punch to supersonic levels of speed just because he punched the other boxer to the ground. Very unreliable if you ask me. Anyway since the results themselves disagree with your method (no human punches faster than 20 m/s yet boxers knokcing each other to the ground happens all the time), there is something wrong which you have yet to consider.
3. You can't use momentum to calc speed because you need to find speed to calc momentum in the first place.
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- Thread starter
- #106
Kay
Well for one you calculated the feat wrong but it doesn't matter
p = 1.827 kg * 11 m/s = 20.097 kg m/s
The momentum of the fallen boxer is zero (momentum of fallen boxer = 0 kg m/s) since they are at rest after falling
The total momentum of the system before and after the punch should be conserved: momentum before the punch = momentum of the fallen boxer +momentum of the punch = 0 kg m/s + 20.097 kg m/s ≈ 20.097 kg m/s
So, the total momentum of the system is approximately 20.097 kg m/s before and after the punch.
The speed at which the boxer falls is not determined by the punch's momentum. Instead, the fallen boxer's velocity
Using momentum and mass is a valid and reliable method, ill give you a calculation soon
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Then why not use the velocity at which Taiju was falling down to calculate his velocity instead of using Mikey's velocity to calculate momentum and then reverse engineering it to calculate Miket's velocity again?
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- Thread starter
- #108
This isn't calculating Taiju's velocity, this is calculating Mikey's momentum to then find speed since Mikey had to jump and push down all of Taiju's weight whilst also completely blitzing and becoming invisible to everyone around him
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Welp in my calc did the same thing as the one you linked and was wrong + it isn't even necessary that Mikey pushed all of Taiju's weight down to the gorund, it is also possible that he merely lost consciousness when the kick landed and fell on his own.
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- #110
Look at the feat before continuing this debate
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I agree with DontTalkDT.
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- #112
Any reason as to why you disagree with my response and any reason as to why you agree with his ?
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Turns out Mystic Carnage and Vapourrrrr were the same user.
Honestly not shocked at all by this.
Honestly not shocked at all by this.
Serlock_Holmes
He/Him- 3,651
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I expected as much from Mystic's first message. Just didn't wanna speak about it because I would have been called a hater with no proof from him. What I am mostly puzzled about is the need to wank such a mediocre verse.
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Although, user being banned does not suggest his arguments to be ignored.
But I disagree with it as the same as phantom, so I can't much defend his position as opposition.
But I disagree with it as the same as phantom, so I can't much defend his position as opposition.
Serlock_Holmes
He/Him- 3,651
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In this particular case it damn near should. For months stonewalling on every possible downgrade for his pet verse. I started posting to this forum after 7 and some years because of how bad the threads with TR were.
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Why is TK involved in this thread?
This thread has a complete different premise.
This thread has a complete different premise.
Serlock_Holmes
He/Him- 3,651
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This thread is literally based on a feat in TK that was calced differently by cgm and vapour didn't like it as the value doesn't come near to the one he would get via this method. So he only made this thread to accept the method that would give higher results. Pretty sure many messages of him state as much that he only wants the feat looked at. Also sorry meant to say TR instead of TK...
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But the person is arguing over the mechanics and the method setting in the calculation and not the verse. I feel this is a simple legitimate concern.
Serlock_Holmes
He/Him- 3,651
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Had his main reason not have been to simply recalculate the feat in a different way with a higher result yeah it would have been fine. The main reason he ends up doing it though is because he wanted to upgrade the feat and when asked about replying to the staff discussion he refused probably knowing the result already. So I can't say that this thread was made in good faith. Anyways I do think this has been shot down.
