The Use Of Momentum And Mass To Calculate Speed

[Arnoldstone18]

No, I am trying to follow your logic-line. smh

No you are trying to strawman me by taking my words out of context and assuming I meant all fiction when I specified that it’s the fiction that don’t follow physics.

 

[Vapourrrrr]

Okay Okay lets all chill, the main thing is that this should work

 

[Stryker861]

Hmmm , i can see the vision a little bit with how arnold explained it

 

[Clout5560]

Isn’t this just regular good old high school physics? I haven’t seen this yet during school but if everything is fine. Then what’s wrong with it? Saying it’s “weird” isn’t really much of a debunk.

 

[ImmortalDread]

No you are trying to strawman me by taking my words out of context and assuming I meant all fiction when I specified that it’s the fiction that don’t follow physics.

I am allowed.

 

[ElajRuengies]

If using KE backwards to get speed isn't allowed, then using momentum backwards to get speed shouldn't be allowed either.

 

[SeijiSetto]

If using KE backwards to get speed isn't allowed, then using momentum backwards to get speed shouldn't be allowed either.

Using KE backwards to get speed is, IIRC, only allowed if there's an explicit link drawn between the speed and the character's destructive capacity.

if A has an ability that lets them accelerate and they're stated to use it offensively by running fast and tackling things, then yeah it'd be allowed

 

[ElajRuengies]

Using KE backwards to get speed is, IIRC, only allowed if there's an explicit link drawn between the speed and the character's destructive capacity.

if A has an ability that lets them accelerate and they're stated to use it offensively by running fast and tackling things, then yeah it'd be allowed

No, it's just not allowed period- if a person with a mass of M slams into the ground and makes a crater requiring J joules to form, you still can't work backwards from that in order to get speed, not even for speedsters.

What you described was the situations when KE is applicable for AP, or in other words when using some speed rating from a normal speed calc, along with their mass and the KE formula, can be used to get the energy of their attacks.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

If using KE backwards to get speed isn't allowed, then using momentum backwards to get speed shouldn't be allowed either.

I don’t see any correlation with these two completely different concepts.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

No, it's just not allowed period- if a person with a mass of M slams into the ground and makes a crater requiring J joules to form, you still can't work backwards from that in order to get speed, not even for speedsters.

What you described was the situations when KE is applicable for AP, or in other words when using some speed rating from a normal speed calc, along with their mass and the KE formula, can be used to get the energy of their attacks.

You still haven’t given reasons why conservation of momentum shouldn’t be allowed.

 

[ElajRuengies]

I don’t see any correlation with these two completely different concepts.

Momentum's literally the derivative of KE with respect to velocity but ok.

You still haven’t given reasons why conservation of momentum shouldn’t be allowed.

No one had asked me yet.

Anywho, the main concern I have is that fiction often has [big and strong but slow] characters throwing absurdly huge objects at low-ish speeds, which would result in them getting overly fast speed ratings if Conservation of Momentum was used.

Example: 600 kg Dollarstore Hulk Expy throws a 900,000 kg building at 5 m/s, allowing them to get a speed rating of (900000*5=600*v, v=) 7,500 m/s, when they have no feats anywhere near that level.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Momentum's literally the derivative of KE with respect to velocity but ok.

Was referring to the concept of the law of conservation of Momentum not the concept of just Momentum lol. Regardless momentum being the derivative doesn’t make your claim any more logical.

No one had asked me yet.

Nobody should have to ask you. We might have well ignored you for sending a claim (non sequitur one at that) without telling us why.

Anywho, the main concern I have is that fiction often has [big and strong but slow] characters throwing absurdly huge objects at low-ish speeds, which would result in them getting overly fast speed ratings if Conservation of Momentum was used.

Example: 600 kg Dollarstore Hulk Expy throws a 900,000 kg building at 5 m/s, allowing them to get a speed rating of (900000*5=600*v, v=) 7,500 m/s, when they have no feats anywhere near that level.

We have throwing speed formulas in the calculation page…

 

[Clout5560]

Was referring to the concept of the law of conservation of Momentum not the concept of just Momentum lol. Regardless momentum being the derivative doesn’t make your claim any more logical.




Nobody should have to ask you. We might have well ignored you for sending a claim (non sequitur one at that) without telling us why.

We have throwing speed formulas in the calculation page…

Mind linking throwing speed formulas please?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Mind linking throwing speed formulas please?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Calculations#:~:text=vision%20aren't%20given.-,throwing%20feats,-For%20feats%20of

Scroll down to throwing feats.

 

[SeijiSetto]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Calculations#:~:text=vision%20aren't%20given.-,throwing%20feats,-For%20feats%20of

Scroll down to throwing feats.

That's just talking about regular-ass projectile motion. I think Elaj's point was "if X can generate a given amount of momentum in one method, them being able to conserve that would mean they can get wacky ratings not consistent with their feats".


The given example of the momentum generated by throwing a building at an incredibly slow pace but that same amount of momentum granting a far lighter object a ridiculous speed is the issue.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

That's just talking about regular-ass projectile motion. I think Elaj's point was "if X can generate a given amount of momentum in one method, them being able to conserve that would mean they can get wacky ratings not consistent with their feats".


The given example of the momentum generated by throwing a building at an incredibly slow pace but that same amount of momentum granting a far lighter object a ridiculous speed is the issue.

He has not even shown a valid proof of that claim.

In the example, Where is the collision? What momentum is being transferred? All I read is Hulk is just picking up a building and throwing it, is it not? Or am I missing something.

 

[SeijiSetto]

He has not even shown a valid proof of that claim.

In the example, Where is the collision? What momentum is being transferred? All I read is Hulk is just picking up a building and throwing it, is it not? Or am I missing something.

The building is initially stationary.
Throwing it (i.e making a mass move at a given velocity) is transferring momentum to it.
If you assume similar amounts of momentum can be generated across the body (i.e he can jump at least as hard as he can throw, which makes sense in real life as your legs are stronger), apply the law of conservation of momentum and suddenly he would have a speed rating far removed from what his showings may be.

 

[Stryker861]

He has not even shown a valid proof of that claim.

In the example, Where is the collision? What momentum is being transferred? All I read is Hulk is just picking up a building and throwing it, is it not? Or am I missing something.

Hes bassically saying that a charecters lifting strength in a way is causing it to inflate how fast they can move when fiction doesent really treat speed like that

 

[Arnoldstone18]

The building is initially stationary.
Throwing it (i.e making a mass move at a given velocity) is transferring momentum to it.
If you assume similar amounts of momentum can be generated across the body (i.e he can jump at least as hard as he can throw, which makes sense in real life as your legs are stronger), apply the law of conservation of momentum and suddenly he would have a speed rating far removed from what his showings may be.

Let me visualize this.

Initial momentum = Final momentum.

Both Hulk and the building’s initial momentum is 0. Cuz both of them are at rest. Mass • 0 is 0

0 = M1V1 + M2V2

M1 = Hulk’s mass = 600kg
V1 = Hulk’s final speed = 0
M2 = Building mass = 900000kg
V2 = Building’s final speed = 5m/s

0 = (600 • 0) + (900000kg • 5m/s)

So how can we even find Hulk’s speed here?
The same speed Hulk throws the building = the speed the building moves at in the air = 5m/s so how is 5m/s fast? Doubt this building will travel far tho.

 

[Clout5560]

Let me visualize this.

Initial momentum = Final momentum.

Both Hulk and the building’s initial momentum is 0. Cuz both of them are at rest. Mass • 0 is 0

0 = M1V1 + M2V2

M1 = Hulk’s mass = 600kg
V1 = Hulk’s final speed = 0
M2 = Building mass = 900000kg
V2 = Building’s final speed = 5m/s

0 = (600 • 0) + (900000kg • 5m/s)

So how can we even find Hulk’s speed here?
The same speed Hulk throws the building = the speed the building moves at in the air = 5m/s so how is 5m/s fast? Doubt this building will travel far tho.

I have a similar feat for another character. They were able to carry a whole tree and manage to throw it. I don’t really see how this correlates to the speed of my character tho.

they weight around 70kg the tree weighs around 6831 kg and the speed of the throw was 3 m/s. I don’t really see how any speed from this would make sensez

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I have a similar feat for another character. They were able to carry a whole tree and manage to throw it. I don’t really see how this correlates to the speed of my character tho.

they weight around 70kg the free weighs around 6831 kg and the speed of the throw was 3 m/s. I don’t really see how any speed from this would make sensez

Conservation of Momentum is useless for throwing feats because the thrower is generating momentum not conserving it.

 

[Vapourrrrr]

Why are we talking about throwing feats anyways ? The feat in question has nothing to do with your arguments

I can see you being against using it for throwing but to be against it as a whole is a completely different thing

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

It seems like this isn't going to get a response from staff members.....

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Your best best is just asking for permission on the staff thread. Else it will just end the same way it has for months.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Calculating speed from momentum by knowing mass is the same as calculating the speed from KE by knowing that and mass.
Like, quite directly. Since momentum is mass * velocity and KE is 0.5*mass*velocity^2, i.e. they have the same variables, if you know the mass of an object you can calculate its KE from its momentum and vice versa (aside from direction, of course). Any "speed from KE" calc could be reformulated into a "speed from momentum" calc. A speed from momentum calc is basically just hiding that you actually wanted to do speed from KE. It's a speed from KE calc in a trenchcoat.

So yeah, obviously we don't calc speed from momentum. (Has, in fact, been rejected before. Though that was a while back)
It really goes with the philosophy of "strength doesn't imply speed" if you think about it.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Calculating speed from momentum by knowing mass is the same as calculating the speed from KE by knowing that and mass.
Like, quite directly. Since momentum is mass * velocity and KE is 0.5*mass*velocity^2, i.e. they have the same variables, if you know the mass of an object you can calculate its KE from its momentum and vice versa (aside from direction, of course). Any "speed from KE" calc could be reformulated into a "speed from momentum" calc. A speed from momentum calc is basically just hiding that you actually wanted to do speed from KE. It's a speed from KE calc in a trenchcoat.

So yeah, obviously we don't calc speed from momentum. (Has, in fact, been rejected before. Though that was a while back)
It really goes with the philosophy of "strength doesn't imply speed" if you think about it.

So you disagree with what the thread proposes? At least that is what I am getting from your response.

 

[DontTalkDT]

So you disagree with what the thread proposes? At least that is what I am getting from your response.

yes

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

yes

Thank you for your answer.

 

[ElajRuengies]

Calculating speed from momentum by knowing mass is the same as calculating the speed from KE by knowing that and mass.
Like, quite directly. Since momentum is mass * velocity and KE is 0.5*mass*velocity^2, i.e. they have the same variables, if you know the mass of an object you can calculate its KE from its momentum and vice versa (aside from direction, of course). Any "speed from KE" calc could be reformulated into a "speed from momentum" calc. A speed from momentum calc is basically just hiding that you actually wanted to do speed from KE. It's a speed from KE calc in a trenchcoat.

So yeah, obviously we don't calc speed from momentum. (Has, in fact, been rejected before. Though that was a while back)
It really goes with the philosophy of "strength doesn't imply speed" if you think about it.

Vindication!

 

[Vapourrrrr]

Calculating speed from momentum by knowing mass is the same as calculating the speed from KE by knowing that and mass.
Like, quite directly. Since momentum is mass * velocity and KE is 0.5*mass*velocity^2, i.e. they have the same variables, if you know the mass of an object you can calculate its KE from its momentum and vice versa (aside from direction, of course). Any "speed from KE" calc could be reformulated into a "speed from momentum" calc. A speed from momentum calc is basically just hiding that you actually wanted to do speed from KE. It's a speed from KE calc in a trenchcoat.

So yeah, obviously we don't calc speed from momentum. (Has, in fact, been rejected before. Though that was a while back)
It really goes with the philosophy of "strength doesn't imply speed" if you think about it.

They're different though

Kinetic Energy can't be used to find speed because "fiction in general differentiates between the attack potency and the speed of a character", Momentum has no corelation with attack potency, In physics, momentum is defined as the product of an object's mass and its velocity. It is a vector quantity, which means it includes both the magnitude (how fast it is moving) and direction of the motion, It doesn't correlate with attack potency,, for you to compare them speed wise makes sense but they are inherently different. I see no reason for you to be rejecting a scientific method from calcs, can you prove that in the case I linked above momentum shouldn't be used ?

 

[ElajRuengies]

Let me visualize this.

Initial momentum = Final momentum.

Both Hulk and the building’s initial momentum is 0. Cuz both of them are at rest. Mass • 0 is 0

0 = M1V1 + M2V2

M1 = Hulk’s mass = 600kg
V1 = Hulk’s final speed = 0
M2 = Building mass = 900000kg
V2 = Building’s final speed = 5m/s

0 = (600 • 0) + (900000kg • 5m/s)

Momentum is a vector meaning its direction is reflected in it's +/-, so things can still have a net momentum of 0 while also gaining momentum in an absolute value sense.

The equation at the start is

• 600 * 0 + 900000 * 0 = 0

If the building is then moved at 5 m/s, then in order to conserve momentum, the Hulk clone must move at-

• 600 * v + 900000 * 5 = 0
• 600 * v = -4500000
• v = -7500 m/s

In other words, he'd move in the opposite direction at 7500 m/s.

 

[Vapourrrrr]

Momentum is a vector meaning its direction is reflected in it's +/-, so things can still have a net momentum of 0 while also gaining momentum in an absolute value sense.

The equation at the start is

• 600 * 0 + 900000 * 0 = 0

If the building is then moved at 5 m/s, then in order to conserve momentum, the Hulk clone must move at-

• 600 * v + 900000 * 5 = 0
• 600 * v = -4500000
• v = -7500 m/s

In other words, he'd move in the opposite direction at 7500 m/s.

This is partly correct

Momentum is a vector, meaning its direction is reflected in its sign so objects can have positive or negative momentum depending on their direction of motion, a net momentum of zero means that the total momentum of a system is balanced, and there is no overall motion in a specific direction, you did correctly set up the equation for the initial momentum before the building is moved:
Initial Momentum = 600 kg * 0 m/s + 900,000 kg * 0 m/s = 0 kg·m/s, mow, solve for v = 600v + 900,000 * 5 = 0 600v = -4,500,000 v = -7,500 m/s

the velocity of Hulk or whatever after the building is thrown at 5 m/s, should be -7,500 m/s. The negative sign indicates that the clone moves in the opposite direction of the building's motion, which allows the total momentum to remain zero, idk what this means but yeah !

 

[SeijiSetto]

This is partly correct

Momentum is a vector, meaning its direction is reflected in its sign so objects can have positive or negative momentum depending on their direction of motion, a net momentum of zero means that the total momentum of a system is balanced, and there is no overall motion in a specific direction, you did correctly set up the equation for the initial momentum before the building is moved:
Initial Momentum = 600 kg * 0 m/s + 900,000 kg * 0 m/s = 0 kg·m/s, mow, solve for v = 600v + 900,000 * 5 = 0 600v = -4,500,000 v = -7,500 m/s

the velocity of Hulk or whatever after the building is thrown at 5 m/s, should be -7,500 m/s. The negative sign indicates that the clone moves in the opposite direction of the building's motion, which allows the total momentum to remain zero, idk what this means but yeah !

You said it was partly correct then went on to repeat exactly the same thing he said and come to the exact same conclusion.

I believe Elaj's point is that, in this scenario, the character would be moving backwards at almost Mach 22, and this would cause issues if they have no feats on this level.

 

[Vapourrrrr]

You said it was partly correct then went on to repeat exactly the same thing he said and come to the exact same conclusion.

I believe Elaj's point is that, in this scenario, the character would be moving backwards at almost Mach 22, and this would cause issues if they have no feats on this level.

no the thing is

When we calculate the momentum:

Hulk's Momentum = 600 kg * (-7,500 m/s) = -4,500,000 kg·m/s Building's Momentum = 900,000 kg * 5 m/s = 4,500,000 kg·m/s

Total Momentum = -4,500,000 kg·m/s + 4,500,000 kg·m/s = 0 kg·m/s

The total momentum is zero, not -7,500 kg·m/s. Both the Hulk clone and the building have equal and opposite momenta, leading to a net momentum of zero. The negative sign for the Hulk clone's momentum indicates its backward motion, and the positive sign for the building's momentum indicates its forward motion. The magnitudes of their momenta are equal and cancel each other out, resulting in a total momentum of zero.

Therefore, the Hulk clone moves backward at a velocity of -7,500 m/s, but due to the opposite motion of the building, the total momentum of the system is conserved, and there is no overall motion in any particular direction. gpt never wrong ong

 

[ElajRuengies]

no the thing is

When we calculate the momentum:

Hulk's Momentum = 600 kg * (-7,500 m/s) = -4,500,000 kg·m/s Building's Momentum = 900,000 kg * 5 m/s = 4,500,000 kg·m/s

Total Momentum = -4,500,000 kg·m/s + 4,500,000 kg·m/s = 0 kg·m/s

The total momentum is zero, not -7,500 kg·m/s.

i was solving for v, I never put -7500 being the momentum.

gpt never wrong ong

Cease.

 

[Vapourrrrr]

i was solving for v, I never put -7500 being the momentum.

Cease.

The whole calculation is wrong, scroll up

 

[SeijiSetto]

I feel like if you have to use ChatGPT to make your arguments for you, you're already in a losing position.

There is no momentum, as it is conserved. 2 objects with equal momentum are moving in opposite directions, thus 0. I agree.
However:

Therefore, the Hulk clone moves backward at a velocity of -7,500 m/s,

I believe Elaj's point is that, in this scenario, the character would be moving backwards at almost Mach 22, and this would cause issues if they have no feats on this level.

 

[ImmortalDread]

GTP company said themselves it can give inaccurate information. Relying on it without having some confirmed source or an accurate context/setting is bad move.

 

[Vapourrrrr]

I feel like if you have to use ChatGPT to make your arguments for you, you're already in a losing position.

There is no momentum, as it is conserved. 2 objects with equal momentum are moving in opposite directions, thus 0. I agree.
However:

Witewally makes no sense, I'm not going to risk making one mistake with people like you so yes I will be doing that

GTP company said themselves it can give inaccurate information. Relying on it without having some confirmed source or an accurate context/setting is bad move.

This doesn't matter, if you cannot debunk the points then it is not incorrect, GPT gives wrong information in some instances, not every instance

Debunk the statements before going on, this isn't a debate with me anymore lol, its a debate with KLOL'S worst enemy

 

[Vapourrrrr]

Therefore, the Hulk clone moves backward at a velocity of -7,500 m/s,

I believe Elaj's point is that, in this scenario, the character would be moving backwards at almost Mach 22, and this would cause issues if they have no feats on this level.

been explained read this

no the thing is

When we calculate the momentum:

Hulk's Momentum = 600 kg * (-7,500 m/s) = -4,500,000 kg·m/s Building's Momentum = 900,000 kg * 5 m/s = 4,500,000 kg·m/s

Total Momentum = -4,500,000 kg·m/s + 4,500,000 kg·m/s = 0 kg·m/s

The total momentum is zero, not -7,500 kg·m/s. Both the Hulk clone and the building have equal and opposite momenta, leading to a net momentum of zero. The negative sign for the Hulk clone's momentum indicates its backward motion, and the positive sign for the building's momentum indicates its forward motion. The magnitudes of their momenta are equal and cancel each other out, resulting in a total momentum of zero.

Therefore, the Hulk clone moves backward at a velocity of -7,500 m/s, but due to the opposite motion of the building, the total momentum of the system is conserved, and there is no overall motion in any particular direction. gpt never wrong ong