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The Ultimate Life Form fights The DNA Pokemon (Grace)

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I'm not knowledgeable enough here so neutral on the match but Cal's raised points seem indeed to be thoroughly ignored throughout the thread thus far. Adressing them should probably be done before going FRA for Shadow since they fully contest Shadow winning, as is.
 
That matters how? If that's how the move works than tough luck.

I am not saying that isn't how the move works. I am just saying that that sounds genuinely, incredibly nonsensical.
 
The real cal howard said:
To further my argument, there's also Counter and Mirror Coat to reflect anything that does hit. And Deoxys has insane defense boosts to add onto it.

So to summarize:
Click to expand...
I am going to reply to your points in order

Pretty sure that taunt is temporary, so it's just delaying the invitable, and the immunity idol makes him immune to that since I am pretty sure that's also a status effects in Chronicles

Shadow already has a significant Ap advantage plus he can get stronger via Chaos Boost, Hero and Dark mode and taking off his inibitor rings, which btw don't drain Shadow's stamina in the games, plus Ap, Chaos Blast and Spear is enough to beat regen

Chaos Blast counters all of that with a large AoE attack, which Shadow can spam in Chaos Boost and Dark mode, plus Violet Void and Indigo Asteroid as well, plus Shadow can use his hover shoes or a extremy gear or the Ark of the Cosmos to catch him in the Air

Shadow can just break the forcefields via having a already significant Ap advantage, and Shadow can boost his Ap to counter the defence boost, also most Pokemon are vulnerable while boosting their stats, meanwhile Hero and Dark mode allow Shadow to not take any damage from Sonic's attacks, so Deoxys also won't harm him

The Dark and Hero mode natural invulnerability plus the invencinbility monitor and Wisps can counter reflected attacks so that Shadow won't take damage, also Shadow can attack him in the stopped time as well.

Also Shadow can revive himself twice thanks to his equipment, so if Deoxys beats him, Shadow will revive and imediately finish him off with a wisp or BFR in stopped time, the Wisps will work in stopped time since Rouge and Omega can still move after Shadow stops time after Team Dark's team blast, and before someone says that's game mechanincs Charmy and Vector don't follow Espio when he is invisible, so they could have done the same for that

Shadow can also heal himself via Shadow heal or many equipments as well in case Deoxys does significant damage, can inducd fear, boost his own speed, absorve his life force, or paralyse him with a Chaos Spear or Stun
 
Its temporary...until Deoxys uses it again. Besides, Shadow's not going to know his techniques are allowed again anyway, as there's no way to show that it wears off. OP didn't specify optional equipment and even if the Immunity Idol is allowed and works here (it doesn't, I checked), Knock Off is a thing. Also it's not delaying the inevitable because Shadow winning here is far from inevitable. It's a severe boon.

A gap of not even 2x isn't a severe AP advantage at all. Chaos Spear doesn't beat high mid regen, Chaos Boost gets done in by Taunt, and everything else is temporary. Deoxys's are permanent.

Shadow's not breaking Protect forcefields with his marginal AP advantage, even with Inhibitor Rings off it won't do a thing to Protect's forcefields.

Again, time stop is nullified here. Dark and Hero Mode wears off and even then won't protect from spatial hax.

Knock Off again removes all of the items Shadow would have to do any of those stuff. No Wisps (which he would not use immediately upon revival because he has far more useful techniques), and Taunt once again stops BFR (even then Deoxys has low multiversal teleportation range). And no, the Team Attack isn't stopping me from calling an obvious case of game mechanics as game mechanics by associating it to a completely unrelated event in the game.
 
Shadow can dodge Knock Off, also nothing implies that Deoxys would use those moves in character, nor that he would know that he needs to use them as well

It's more than two since Shadow is unquantifiable above 614 Zettatons, and Shadow can just use them again, and unlike Pokémon moves he doesn't need to worry about PP, also would Deoxys use Taunt before Shadow uses Chaos Boost, and Chaos Blast does beat that regen, it can vaporize enemies( I think that was stated somewhere)

Protect gets weaker the more it's used, so Shadow countinuing hitting them will break it, also Deoxys can't do anything while in Protect, also you are underestimating the boost of the inbitor rings, Shadow tied with Mephiles without them, but he he was able to one shoot multiple Mephiles without them

Dark Mode will continue as long as Shadow keeps damaging Deoxys, also Shadow also has spatial manipulation

Time Stop is nullified only when he uses taunt, which we don't know when, meanwhile Shadow can open with it

Deoxys doesn't know that Shadow has any itens so nothing sugests he will use knock off as well, nor does he know about the revival itens. Shadow can ressurect twice, even if he doesn't use the Wisps the first time, he will use them again, also nothing implies that Deoxys will spam taunt as well, also the regen will make him use the Wisps way more easily as well, he isn't stupid.

It's not gameplay mechanics because they would have made them not move like they did with Team Chaotix, that example was to prove that they could just made them not move in stopped time like they did with Espio's invisibility, also in the fight against Team Dark with Team Sonic, when the Team Blast is used the entire Team Dark moves and Team Sonic notes as the entire Team moving and not just Shadow

Also Deoxys doesn't know that Shadow has itens here, so he wouldn't use Knock Off, also he doesn't know about Shadow's boosts, so he would only use Taunt after seeing them as well
 
Deoxys is a ******* genius, it would know when it needs to use Knock Off. And don't give me that "in character" bullshit.

PP is the definition of a gameplay mechanic.
 
Got my hair done so I couldn't respond soon. My b.

First, usage of Knock Off/Taunt. Pokemon in general are very liberal in using their moves. The idea of not using any of them in character is asinine. You'd have a point if it were an item or a TM/Tutor move but nothing intrinsic to them. Not to mention that Pokemon, let alone the hyper-intelligent ones like this, know to status first.

Again, I'm firmly against scaling the cast to the power of 4 Emeralds, but that's not a factor until I make a CRT. What is a factor is that Shadow doesn't have the + in his AP, which means even if we maximize the wank for base Shadow, he's less than 4 times stronger, even with the Rings off. And he one shot multiple Mephiles without the inhibitor rings...with a Chaos Blast. His strongest move. Never argued that wouldn't cripple the heck out of Deoxys if it managed to get a good hit on him. But everything else gets shrugged off due to numerous factors in Deoxys's biology. Not just the regen.

No. You got Protect completely wrong. Its chance of failing increases with each use, not its strength, and even that gets reset if Deoxys uses a move in between usage. As long as the forcefield is up, Shadow has no chance of bypassing it. Deoxys doesn't need to do anything with the forcefield up (even though it can still move around and fly freely, the latter being more than Shadow can do), due to clones.

More on Dark Mode. One, not sure he could even activate it under the effects of Taunt, given once again, it's not a technique for attack. Two, Shadow needs to commit a bunch of evil deeds to activate it. Three, for it to keep up for more than a few moments, he'd have to hit Deoxys, which is going to be hard when Deoxys can teleport, fly, and cast illusions. And before you bring it up, Shadow can't teleport due to Taunt.

Even if Shadow manages to get off Chaos Control before being nullified, as we discussed in the Mewtwo vs Shadow thread, he's not going to do more than kick Deoxys in the head the first time (given that's the most he did in every cutscene where he stopped time (I'm not saying he's never done less, just that it's the most effective thing he's ever done in a cutscene with timestop)), which wouldn't kill Deoxys for a multitude of reasons. Which prompts Taunt.

Back to Knock Off. Pokemon in general hold items 99% of the time so Knock Off is very very common to use. Not to mention they're items. Deoxys can see what Shadow has on him. On the Wisps, Shadow's not stupid but he is arrogant. He knows Chaos power >>>>> Wisp power. Why would he not only think of using them, but using VV or IA of all things? Because I know this is going to come up, this isn't like Deoxys using all of its moves, because they're all Deoxys's moves that Deoxys itself learns biologically. Wisps aren't Shadow's moves.

Snatch is even worse. Deoxys steals Chaos Control or Hero/Dark Mode from Shadow and that's a problem.
 
I will reply later, but he didn't use a Chaos Blast versus Mephiles Cal, and he actualy can't see what itens Shadow has, I mean can you see Shadow's itens in him? They are kinda in a hammerspace

Actualy I am going to reply to some points, there's nothing proving that Deoxys would use a move that takes the itens off someone without knowing he has itens, and Shadow isn't a Pokemon.

Protect last for a turn than it has to be used again, so it can't be spamed, also assuming that it would protect from attacks signifincaly stronger than him is a NLF.

Dark mode is activated automaticaly, so Taunt wouldn't influence it, and it last for at least 20 seconds even spaming Chaos Blast, also the clones will make it fuel to laste longer than needed, also he wouldn't start with Taunt nor spam it

Shadow didn't use a Chaos Blast, it was at best a boost against Mephiles clones

That's cutsnenes and Chaos Control only lasted a few seconds, Chaos Control can last to 30 seconds and you can do plenty while time is stopped, also that "kick" beat a opponent stronger than Deoxys, meanwhile Mewtwo was stronger than Shadow and I even voted for Shadow so the results for that thread are irevelant to your arguments

That's a dumb argument, Shadow doesn't care if the attacks are his or not, his oficial description states that he uses any means necessary to complete his goals, he never said anything that makes him think that he only likes using his own moves, he would see Deoxys regenerating and use something that bypasses it, AKA the Wisps, he wouldn't use attacks that Deoxys can regen just because it aren't his, also Shadow isn't a Pokemon so there's no reason for Deoxys to make that assumptions, also Deoxys can't see Shadow's itens, they aren't visible normaly on his person

Snatch can't steal natural techniques like that
 
@Sptflcrw, in character is important because I could just say Shadow stops time a d uses Violet Void, he doesn't know Shadow has itens with him
 
@Theuser789

So Shadow is going to use shit that will get him the win, but Deoxys? Nah, he wouldn't do that. 2x isn't a "huge" difference, Protect has blocked more impressive stuff than that before.

Yeah, it's a cutscene. So? He still kicked him. And yeah, sure, the kick worked on someone stronger than Deoxys. Too bad Deoxys can regenerate.

Snatch literally steals natural techniques, that's what it does.
 
No that's not what I said, I said if you assume that being in character doesn't matter than I can also say that, if Deoxys can use every right move at the right time so can Shadow if we are ignoring in character

It's more than 2 times, it was already explaneid

Except that Chaos Control only lasted five seconds compared to the regular 30 seconds, so he can do more, the Regenerationn just means more reasons to use a Wisps.

When would he use Snatch? And Shadow has various moves so that wouldn't change much, and he probaly would have that idea after he uses those moves
 
@Shadow. Sure. When Dragon Ball has circular scaling and inconsistencies like Cream being multiple times stronger than the f*cking Death Egg or the fact that Chaos isn't considered as fodder until hes Chaos 4 or Cream being stronger than Chaos forms up to 3 instead of things like needing air to breathe then I'll be sure to put a downgrade for Dragon Ball. Until then, bad analogy is bad.

@Theuser. Firstly, Protect. Shadow's not nearly strong enough to activate the NLF card. Absolutely nothing about Shadow is so vastly above Deoxys that forcefields wouldn't work. Once again, he doesn't have the +. And Protect can indeed be spammed. A spammed attack doesn't have to be back to back. If Deoxys attacks once in between Protects then it has a 100% chance of activation. Second, Dark Shadow. Shadow still has to work up for it to activate then, which he's likely not going to get the chance. Thirdly, Chaos Blast. If we're talking about the 06 scene where it's a bunch of clones against Shadow (and iirc Rouge was there), then that was totally Chaos Blast, if not heavily implied to be, unless you can show me another AoE move to fit the bill Shadow has. Fourthly, time stop. Shadow lost that so you voting against it doesn't matter at all. If you argued that Shadow would beat Reinhard, you wouldn't expect me to consider your argument if it came up about Shadow and something involving that match. That "kick" beat someone who was supposedly equal to him so unless you wanna argue that Shadow's durability is utter shit then drop that one-shotting kick argument. Not to mention regen. And every single canonical use of Shadow using Chaos Control to time stop it does not last the whole 30 seconds. Either Shadow chooses to end it early every time or it's game mechanics. If I'm wrong about him having shown more time stopped in a cutscene or canon comic, I'll admit being wrong (because I very well can be). Fifthly, Shadow's character. You're implying that words speak louder than actions. Shadow has proven time and time again that he freaking abuses his Chaos powers. It's fully in character for him to just think to hit him harder instead of relying on something he's never once canonically used in anything more than a racing game. Sixth, the heck? That's exactly what Snatch does? Almost all of Shadow's useful moves would both, be stolen by Snatch or nullified by Taunt. Shadow's variety of moves would be limited to Chaos Spear, Blast, and Nightmare, with only Blast having any impact on Deoxys's biology absorbing attacks and Regenerationn.
 
That wasn't a AoE move Cal, it was a boost, and Cream actualy did destroy a space station in Advance 2 and lastly Runners, he used the Wisps there, also again being a Racing game doesn't matter when they fought Eggman's robots in there, also is there anything suggesting that Will use that very específic protect strategy agaisnt a unknow enemy? Also it is a NLF to no inibitor rings Shadow or even Chaos Boost as well, we need feats for protect against stronger foes than Deoxys

Heroes and SA2 time stop last that long, also Wok explaneid the kick arguments already

Will reply to the rest later
 
Cream (and everyone else in Advance 2) destroyed it through a chain reaction from the inside. They didn't just outright bust it. He never canonically appeared in the plot of Runners and even if he did, he hasn't canonically used them in it. It being a Racing game does matter, plot and robot fighting or not. Unless you wanna say that Shadow'd drive a car into battle normally.

For once I'm not trying to be an a-hole here so apologies if I am.
 
He did appear in the special cutscenes, I showed it in the Big vs Guzzlord thread already, technically we only saw a Wisp power in a cutscene only once in Colors so that's a bad argument for they needed to aooear in cutscenes using the Wisps, otherwise over half aren't canon, neither alot of Shadow's and Deoxys moves

And Cream scales to the main cast, that's kinda a bad argument
 
The special cutscenes, not the main plot.

That's the point. The cast couldn't outright destroy the fortress. The cast had trouble with Chaos 0 through 3. Chaos 0 isn't considered fodder to everyone, especially in Forces, despite everyone apparently getting stronger. And most importantly, Eggman's sentry bots are apparently more powerful than his doomsday weapons.

It's a massive amount of circular reasoning to overhype the verse's power. You know I don't have a problem scaling them to one Emerald (well, I kinda do, I just don't have a problem scaling them to 5-B). I have a problem with scaling them to four.
 
They are still canon, it's not really special cutscenes but special events.

Are you using gameplay dificulty? And Sonic never had problemas with Chaos, and Knuckles still defeated Chaos 2 in a one on one fight
 
Why would the special events be canon?

No, I'm not. Forces and Battle shows that Chaos 0 is the one equal to the cast.
 
"@Shadow. Sure. When Dragon Ball has circular scaling and inconsistencies like Cream being multiple times stronger than the f*cking Death Egg or the fact that Chaos isn't considered as fodder until hes Chaos 4 or Cream being stronger than Chaos forms up to 3 instead of things like needing air to breathe then I'll be sure to put a downgrade for Dragon Ball. Until then, bad analogy is bad."

Basically this just means 4 Emeralds isn't that much stronger than one. It's unquantifiable. You'd have a point if someone pulled a DB style multiplier wank to push Sonic into 5-A but they're still at 5-B even though baseline 5-A is just 4.3x the Emerald calc.
 
Forgive me if this comes off much meaner than intended.

And that changes my point how? If anything DB multiplier wank is better. I'd take that linear scaling than the circular clusterf*** this is. Cheese<Chaos<<<<Chaos 4<Cheese. Chaos 2<Knuckles=Chaos 0. Sonic's relationship with Chaos is all over the place. And that's not even mentioning again, Eggman's doomsday weapons being < Eggrobos or any of his Egg Machines. I hate DB wank too but it's hypocritical asf to constantly criticize another franchise while ignoring the flaws of your own.
 
Gee. I wonder if Cal dislikes the Sonic the Hedgehog franchise in the context of versus deating? It's so hard to tell.
 
Okay, I will reply to Cal's points now.

Is there anything suggesting that Deoxys will use that specific strategy agaisnt Shadow at all? Also inibitor rings off Shadow as well as Chaos Boost, Dark and Hero mode should be strong enough, Chaos could have simply gotten stronger in Battle, in Adventure Sonic easily beats Chaos 0 at the start of the game, Knuckles beat Chaos 2 and they all beat Chaos 4.

Thanks to the clones Dark mode will be easy to reach and keep it since every clone will increase it.

It wasn't a AoE move, watch the cutscene before spreading false info, it was a boost, also bad anology is bad, Shadow losing to Mewtwo isn't a absolute truth, he lost because more people voted for him, that is diferent from a stomp when Shadow had ways to win, I can still use arguments from there if K don't agree with the results and voted against it, it's diferent from fighting Reinhard, that's a awful comparassion, one of the worst ones, also other people voted for him as well. Wok already explaneid the kick argument, and that doesn't make Shadow's durability shit as you keep implying, also Chaos Control most of the times last 30 seconds or 15, if we are using the gameplay mechanics argument then I can say that over the way that over half of Deoxys moves work are gameplay mechanics as well like Taunt, the only time it lasted that long was in a cutscene in Forces, also in Hero mode Shadow can slow down time as long as the mode lasts as well, which he can increase by harming Deoxys, plus the regen just means he will use Chaos Blast or the Wisps

Show a scan where Shadow was so arrogant about his Chaos moves that he dislikes anything else, I am not saying that he will use the Wisps at the start, but after seeing the regen he will use a abilty that bypasses it, he isn't arrogant to the point of stupidity, if he is show a scan where he didn't use anything other than a Chaos move because of arrogance, and Shadow used them in Runners, the special events are canon, they just increase the main story

Even with Taunt Shadow can phase since that's a attack in Battle, the same to teleportation as well, and you need to sugests that he will use Snatch before Shadow uses any of his important moves where they being stolen it doesn't matter anymore
 
Cream and Chesse never fought Chaos Cal, she didn't even exist when Adventure was made

Also the Lost World Eggrobo isn't a regular Eggrobo lmao, it's a doomsday weapon and the final boss of the game
 
Chaos is a mutaded Chao, and as I said it isn't inconsistant in Adventure, Chaos might have gotten stronger after Adventure after resolving his anger, only after Adventure he fights the cast.

And that Eggrobo is likely 5-B, Eggman's doomsday machines are just 5-B and is probaly refering to the Eggrobo of Knuckles story in 3&K, so he should be downgraded to low 6-B
 
Pure headcanon. Nothing proves that Chaos got stronger than the form he takes when he absorbs 4 Chaos Emeralds at all. No mentions or anything.


But we're derailing. We'll take it to a CRT.
 
I mean, in Adventure Chaos 0 was weaker then his other forms, then suddenly after it he's stronger linda proves it

Also the votes have been tied for awhile now so I am preety sure it's a inconclusive
 
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