The Transcendence vs Ea (I/O)

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Not saying that he can't, but the wording on his profile says this:

" Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2, Capable of making universes where the laws of logic itself are defied. It's own realm was called abstract in nature) "

If he can, that should be clarified. Did he use his concepual manip to destroy humanity, or was it something else?

 

[Elizhaa]

"It never will have existed. And it could be arranged quite easily. - seems like prove for concept Destruction

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

That's just retroactive erasure. That doesn't qualify you for conceptual destruction, otherwise Kumagawa would have it

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Transcendence has conceptual manipulation for other reasons, including the weird shadow stuff lucus pointed out, as well as the abstract realm and folding down possibilities so that things can be true "regardless of logic"

 

[Dragopentling]

Finally we get a great rundown!

Voting Transcendence for Lucie's explanation

 

[Elizhaa]

Transcendence has conceptual manipulation for other reasons, including the weird shadow stuff lucus pointed out, as well as the abstract realm and folding down possibilities so that things can be true "regardless of logic"

To be honest, @ZacharyGrossman273, I feel like you should have added better reasonings.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

You should probably add in the shadow stuff as another explanation. It actually sounds similar to platonic philosophy, ironically enough.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Yeah, if you had said stuff like that we wouldn't have this issue. I think that a more detailed explanation of his conceptual manip should be added, because its kinda unclear which of his abilities are conceptual and which ones are other ones

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Also, how does his absorbsion work? because even if she absorbs her, the aio system is still gonna bring her back, because the point is that her shadow form is there to be returned to should her living self ever return

 

[Elizhaa]

I can open The Transcendence (Xeelee Sequence)'s profile for additions.

The shadow part might need to be shrink and need better evidences for Conceptual Manipulation because it sounds like Higher-Dimensional Manipulation

 

[Lucis=the=Lumenian]

@Iapitus and @Nedge have a point. The wordings on Transcen's page can use some work.

Well, it isn't like the Transcen's page hasn't already been revised bunch of times, haha

You should probably add in the shadow stuff as another explanation. It actually sounds similar to platonic philosophy, ironically enough.

In comparison to Plato stuff :

"It is a question of information," she said. "Spacetime is discrete, it comes in small packages, particles. Therefore a given volume can only store a finite amount of information. And that information can be fully described by information stored on the bounding surface of the volume. " She frowned at me. "Is that clear?"

All information are in the 'bounding surface' which Transcen can manipulate.

"Like a hologram. You have a two-dimensional surface that contains information about a three-dimensional object, the hologram, which is reconstructed when you shine laser light on it."

Bounding Surface is compared to 2D surface. Pure flatness that contains all information universe depended upon.

"Or like Plato," John said. "We are prisoners in a cave and all we perceive is shadows cast on the wall outside, shadows of reality." "Yes," I said. "But now Alia is saying the shadows are the reality. I think." Gea said to me, "This is like the holographic principle. An early attempt at quantum gravity theory."

Its like Plato indeed. But in reverse. But make no mistake, by the previous explanation we know that Physical Reality is just a hologram that depends on mere 'flat surface' to even function. So the 'flat surface' is actually more real than Illusory 'Physical Reality'.

The flat surface needs 'Light' so the Physical Reality can take form. So what's the Light here that can give life to the Physical Reality?

From Timelike Infinity :

"He was beyond time and space. The great quantum functions that encompassed the universe slid past him like a vast, turbulent river, and his eyes were filled with the gray light that shone beneath reality, the light against which all phenomena are shadows. "

' Beneath ' reality. Make sense since Bounding Surface is kinda beneath Physical Reality in a way.

But Physical Reality is also mere shadows because they depend upon the Gray Light and Bounding Surface to even exist.

Conclusion : Bounding Surface+Grey Light>>>Physical Reality.

Kinda obvious which is Conceptually Superior to which.

So indeed, Transcen's cosmology resembles Platonism very much. Just differ in some aspects.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I think he's saying that in verse, all lower dimensional concepts are reflections of higher-dimensional ones that beings like transcendence can manipulate

 

[Elizhaa]

I can unlock the profile now if you guys want

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Okay, you can probably do so.

 

[Elizhaa]

It is unlocked, just tell me when you guys are done.

 

[Lucis=the=Lumenian]

I think he's saying that in verse, all lower dimensional concepts are reflections of higher-dimensional ones that beings like transcendence can manipulate

That sounds right. But I'd advise not to take 'Its actually 2D all the way down!' too literally. Because its obviously a metaphor for the true nature of 'Bounding Surface/Transcen's realm' which is no place, no time and not governed by usual physics.
Wait, You are the one doing the revision, right? @Zach?

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I changed the profile as needed, you can relock it nedge, at least for now.

Anyhow with that revision done I think Transcendence wins easily if it can control information as well as concepts.

 

[Elizhaa]

Ok, locked

 

[Elizhaa]

Question why Type 8 Immortality?

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

It's a bit weird. It's made up of a bunch of human minds that need to be destroyed to kill it, but, it's also implied that if every human ever was erased completely, it would survive.

 

[Elizhaa]

It looks like it is not Type 8 then

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Okay, just mid-godly, you can remove type 8 then.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Sounds like type 8, but can still surivive without it

 

[Elizhaa]

Sounds like type 8, but can still surivive without it

Like Altair (Re:Creators)'s

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

No, Altair can't survive without her type 8, to my knowledge.

Anyhow, with that update, I think Transcendence wins easily now due to absorbing her mind and soul, which should be easy now that his conceptual manipulation extends to information.

 

[Elizhaa]

No, Altair can't survive without her type 8, to my knowledge.

Still Type 8, but different.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Anyhow, with that update, I think Transcendence wins easily now due to absorbing her mind and soul, which should be easy now that his conceptual manipulation extends to information.

Absorbing her mind and soul wont get around her type 8. The system she is reliant on would still restore her because her living self would not be able to return with her shadow in that form.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Anyway, I currently vote for inconclusive, but may change later. The transcendence's absorption will still only result in her being restored. None of his other stuff can put her down either

 

[Lucis=the=Lumenian]

@Iapitus if that's so then Transcen is bad match if you want to beat Ea. You need to kill the Enigma System (1-A?) to permakill her, right?

Or maybe Power Nullification?

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Well yes but that doesen't mean she resists non lethal stuff.

 

[Elizhaa]

@Iapitus if that's so then Transcen is bad match if you want to beat Ea. You need to kill the Enigma System (1-A?) to permakill her, right?
Or maybe Power Nullification?

Feel like the Enigma System's abilities should have been better clarified in her profile.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I mean, like I said, Transcendence can't kill her, but he doesn't really need to in order to incap her.

 

[Lucis=the=Lumenian]

Well yes but that doesen't mean she resists non lethal stuff.

The System restores her no matter how many times you kill her. Absorbing would just restores her.

As I said, might be a bad match.

 

[Elizhaa]

I mean, like I said, Transcendence can't kill her, but he doesn't really need to in order to incap her.

I agree

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

It's not physical absorbtion. It's soul absorbtion.

Now there was a change in the way the patient librarians were working, she saw. Some were making a space in one block of shelves, and others were bringing in a new stack of material, its details too remote to make out. She knew what they were doing. That was her own pitiful heap of memories, her whole life of a mere few decades dwarfed by the great banks of knowledge here. And yet she would be given a place here; she would be cherished. Others would be able to access her memories as easily as she could, just as she could reach the memories of others—and even the greater collective experiences of the Transcendence itself, which she perceived now as shadowy mountains of information looming beyond the bounds of the archive.

And, constantly remembered, the memories that defined her need not die with her—and so she need not die, not ever. She had no need of Reath's "immortality pill"; in this chill, remembered sense, she was already an undying.

She rose again, lifting up through some impossible dimension, so that the whole of the Transcendence opened up around her. Now in her metaphoric perception it was as if she was in a starship, in a hold so vast she could barely make out its walls. Huge, dimly seen masses drifted through the receding gloom. But even this space was not the full extent of the ship, for corridors and walkways led away, receding in every direction, all around her, leading to hollow, silent spaces she could never reach, not if she explored for many lifetimes. This was the mind of the Transcendence. But all she saw was merely a fraction of the vastly complex infrastructure of this place, this mind.

Even now she was still outside the Transcendence, in a sense. She was still herself, still small and closed-over and complete. But there was a place for her here in this immense cathedral of mind. All she had to do was take one last step.

She had a final moment of doubt. It was as if she looked back at herself, her body lying peacefully now on its pallet.

And then she let the embrace of the Transcendence enfold her at last.

 

[Lucis=the=Lumenian]

I mean, like I said, Transcendence can't kill her, but he doesn't really need to in order to incap her.

Then the Thread Creator should make another victory condition, by Incapacitation.

I mean, normally you'd assume its Victory by Permakill, right?

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Standard battle assumptions include non lethal incap as a win condition

 

[Elizhaa]

@ZacharyGrossman273's point is correct

 

[Udlmaster]

To be fair, Type 5 Acausality is the biggest pain in the ass due to how little is known about it.

 

[Elizhaa]

To be fair, Type 5 Acausality is the biggest pain in the ass due to how little is know about it.

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2) should deal with this pretty easily.