The Somewhat Great SAO Clean-Up CRT

[Kaantantr]

First off, this CRT may be a little rough on the edges. For starters, it will be quite varied in regards to what it entails in terms of topics. And secondly, I did not want to create any CRT's until I was further familiar with the concepts here, but my corrections on what the characters of SAO can and cannot do seems to have annoyed a person or two, who have recommended I stop derailing their thread and make a CRT instead. So please do excuse the roughness and don't be shy on telling me what to do better.

This is by no means a complete clean-up, but merely a collection of things that have come up so far in the Kirito vs Kratos thread, however it may feature a lot of seemingly irrelevant things due to the "goalpost pushing" of the claims, the more I provided information.

Kirito (Alicization/War of Underworld/After-Alicization) Ice Manipulation​

This was the source of the entire correction chain. Everybody just sees "Ice Manipulation" and jumps on the "Freeze GG" train, completely disregarding what Kirito can do with the Blue Rose Sword and how Underworld functions. For starters, let's clarify what Kirito (or rather Blue Rose Sword, so Eugeo too) does. The moment its Memory Ability (via Enhance Armament or Memory Release) is activated, it starts using its own Durability (same as any other weapon with a memory) to unleash a wave of ice all around, binding the opponents in ice vines and/or (promptly followed by) trapping them in chunks of ice. You may think what is so different between freezing and trapping. Now comes the distinction.

If someone is frozen, the expectation is that they are not conscious. They are frozen. They are either dead right there if we are going by real life logic, or potentially have to wait to be de-frozen. Unless they have a resist of course, but that's a different topic.

Whereas if someone is trapped in ice rather than frozen, they are still fully conscious. They can break out of the ice given they have the strength to break it, or utilize a variety of other abilities while they are still inside the ice, without having to have a resist.

As you can imagine from my explanation above, the Blue Rose Sword users fall into the latter category. Here are 5 different excerpts from the Light Novels. The portions within squared parentheses are my explanations of what is happening for anyone not extremely knowledgeable about the series for context, however some additional context will be provided thanks to the amount of detail I had to provide during the "pushing of the goalpost" actions.

vs Fanatio & the Whirling Blades:

Craaakk!! With an earsplitting bursting sound, the marble was instantly covered in white frost. [Enhance Armament has been activated by Eugeo, creating a lot of VFX. VFX is confirmed to not be real, but actually just VFX in Underworld]

Sharp, crystalline pillars thrust upward in a wave of ice that swelled forth. Within five seconds of launching, the ten-mel-wide ice wave had swallowed up the feet of Kirito, Fanatio, and the four other knights. [As a result of the activation, pillars of ice chunk are rising from the ground towards the enemy, catching multiple characters by their feet]

At last, the quartet of knights noticed the anomaly. Their helmeted heads turned to look in his direction.

But it was too late.

Eugeo clenched the sword with all his strength and screamed, “Roses—bloom!!”

Instantly, countless vines of pale-blue ice sprang up around the feet of the knights, Fanatio, and Kirito. Each one was only the width of a pinkie finger, but every single tendril bristled with sharp thorns that dug into the legs of their prey. [ice vines start growing and literally binding everyone in place so that they cannot move. They are not frozen]

“Rrgh…”

“Wh-what is this?!”

The knights exclaimed their surprise. By then, the icy vines were climbing up their legs and to their waists and bellies. One knight belatedly tried to sever the vines with his greatsword, but the moment the weapon touched the ice, more vines wrapped around it and sewed it to the ground.

The vines covered the knights from toes to fingertips to head, turning them into immobile ice sculptures. The ice creaked as it snaked upward, firming its grasp on its prey, and then, with the crisp ringing like a bell, it sprouted a multitude of dark-blue roses. [This portion highlights how they are not frozen, but it's the vines covering them that is preventing them from moving]

They were all ice, of course. There was no nectar or scent coming from the hard, crystalline buds, only freezing white mist. Soon the air in the hall was filled with it: a thick, sparkling haze. The source powering the chill was the very life of the captured knights.

The drain on their life was slow, but there was no way to summon the strength to break the chains of ice while the roses sucked it away. This sacred art was not designed for killing foes. Eugeo had settled on this particular effect for the purpose of immobilizing Alice. [The first sentence here is also one of those clear giveaways that they are not frozen. They are literally chained by the vines. They could break the ice vines, but they do not have the power. Still nothing about being frozen at all.]

The four knights were completely neutralized, but their worthy leader was sharp enough to intuit the nature of the attack as soon as the vines started breaking through the frost on the floor, and she jumped away to evade them. [Fanatio was clever enough to realize something was going to come from below, so she jumped before the vines grabbed her. If the ability was going to freeze her, it would just freeze her. But the ability does not freeze.]

But Kirito’s reflexes were even quicker, aided by his prior understanding of Eugeo’s technique. Improbably enough, he not only leaped earlier than Fanatio, but he landed on her shoulder armor to leap a second time farther away. He did a somersault in the air to distance himself from the vines of ice, spreading a fine spray of blood as he went.

The pressure of his jump pushed Fanatio back to the floor, where she landed on one knee and was immediately surrounded by the ice. ["Surrounded by ice", again. It is the vines immediately starting to cover her to immobilize her]

“Rrgh…!”

Her concentration faltered, and the indiscriminate shower of light beams from her sword succeeded in severing a few of the vines before it fell silent. Her hideously damaged purple armor was wreathed in fine tendrils, then covered in thick ice. [She is still very much conscious, she keeps firing the memory ability of her sword as long as she can control her movements until the vines overpower her and cover her in thick ice. She is not frozen. She is explicitly trapped in ice.]

vs Alice:

“Enhance Armament!!” Eugeo screamed, thrusting the Blue Rose Sword into the grass at his feet.

In an instant, the ground was white with ice. [Ground is instantly covered in ice, again, same mechanic we are talking about here but I keep highlighting to make sure the same phenomenon is consistent] The wave of frost raced forward and swallowed Kirito and Alice where they stood, about ten mels away. [Wave of frost is just VFX, again, we'll get to VFX in a separate topic. It is basically the telegraph of the attack, fellow RPG players would know exactly what it is. Before a powerful attack, there are usually tells for where the attack is going to hit]

A rush of icy vines grew up their legs. They formed blue crystal chains that wound around the two bodies. Kirito’s black clothes and Alice’s white armor were soon covered in thick ice. [Vines show up, cover both Kirito and Alice in thick ice in very short time, they are not frozen, they are trapped in ice. Remember when I was talking about the difference between being frozen and being trapped? It's important now!]

Kirito, Alice, I’m sorry!

He continued pumping out more and more ice vines. After seeing what Alice could do, no amount felt like enough to hold her down.

The crackling vines gripped tighter and tighter until they eventually changed into a single thick pillar of ice. The giant crystal, multifaceted like a raw gemstone, glistened quietly with the two combatants trapped inside. The only thing extending from the block was Alice’s hand and the Osmanthus Blade in it, stuck into the wall. Frozen in time within the blue ice was a look of slight surprise on Alice’s face and sheer determination on Kirito’s. [And the vines have combined into a massive chunk of ice to trap them in. They are "frozen in time", because they literally cannot move at all due to how tight they are in the grasp of the ice]

One prick of the dagger on her extended arm, and it was all over.

Eugeo let go of the Blue Rose Sword and stood up. The Perfect Weapon Control would be undone now, but that huge block of ice wouldn’t melt naturally for many minutes. He squeezed his little dagger and took a step forward, then another…

When his third step landed, golden light exploded.

“Ah…!”

To his shock, Alice’s trapped sword was disintegrating into countless petals again.

With a stately, harmonic thrum, the storm of golden flowers circled the pillar. The tiny cross-shaped blades swarmed and chiseled the ice as Eugeo watched helplessly. If he jumped into that fray now, he would lose his life before getting a single step closer. [Because Alice was not frozen, specifically because she was only trapped in ice and could still see with her eyes and think with her mind, she was able to utilize the memory ability of her sword, which turned into small flower petals to cut away the ice surrounding them, bringing her back out of entrapment]

The flowers shredded the ice until there was just a thin layer left, then fluttered up higher into the air. With a delicate crack, what was left of the ice pillar crumbled to the ground. [Once she got the layer of ice weak enough, it just gave away on its own not being able to hold itself. Alice did not even need to use her strength to break it off]

vs Bercouli:

With a sound like a tree splitting apart, the band of ice raced toward Bercouli.

The walkway was five mels across, but the width of the Blue Rose Sword’s ice wave was nearly ten. The water’s surface on either side of the stone developed an icy film, but its spread was weaker and slower, due to the water’s heat. Still, no excuses were possible at this desperate juncture. [Chunks of ice are coming out from the Blue Rose Sword towards Bercouli, same as the Fanatio fight from the first excerpt. With the amount of ice, the nearby water is freezing. Not because the Blue Rose Sword is freezing it, but because of the amount of ice being created by the Blue Rose Sword. We'll talk more about water freezing and Underworld physics in a later header]

Focusing all thoughts into his right hand, Eugeo clenched the sword ever tighter. He roared, and the frosted floor sprouted not vines but sharp thorns. They formed a thick pillar of ice that rippled down the walkway toward Bercouli, vicious glinting spikes covering the entire floor. But the commander merely tightened at the mouth and stayed put, standing in a slight crouch. He had no intention of escaping into the water. [Turning into thorns while heading to Bercouli, rather than pillars to trap him due to Eugeo's different fight plan here. After his experience with Fanatio and Alice, he is certain Bercouli would be able to break out of the ice just fine using his own strength, so he didn't plan to trap him here but to distract him with spikes]

Seeing his opponent stand firm like a fortress, Eugeo realized what he had to do. If he didn’t risk everything in this fight, he would never win.

vs Kirito & Alice:

“…Release Recollection.”

That was the phrase. The initiation of the greatest of battle abilities in the Underworld, calling forth the memory of the weapon and unlocking the true heart of superpowered Perfect Weapon Control—the secret of Memory Release.

Bright blue-white light shot from his sword.

I couldn’t dodge or defend against it. Absolute cold spread from the blade, instantly freezing the entirety of the vast chamber. ["Freezing the entire room", the room is already solid so it cannot "freeze" so you can imagine this is talking about the frostiness VFX just like all the instances before. Just putting this here for safe measure to avoid any misinterpretations] The mouth of the descending staircase in the corner of the room, the levitating disc that went up to the top floor, and both Alice and I were frozen solid up to our chests in thick, immobilizing ice. If Alice hadn’t straightened me up, the ice would have swallowed my head. [As you can see, the real portion of the ability remains consistent. It doesn't freeze anything, it traps them in chunks of ice. Thanks to Alice, Kirito barely managed to stay clear of the ice chunk coming to trap them]

When we came across Bercouli Synthesis One in the great bath on the ninety-fifth floor of the cathedral, he had been frozen up to his neck like this. Eugeo’s Memory Release power was strong enough to freeze an entire pool of hot bathwater so fast that even the oldest of the knights wasn’t able to escape. I hadn’t forgotten or overlooked that, but there wasn’t even any water to freeze on this floor. And he hadn’t generated a huge number of ice elements to make use of—where had all this ice come from? [Bercouli was also "frozen up to his neck". The language is very clear here. Chunk of ice, up to his neck. The bath is quite shallow, so he didn't "froze the water to trap him", he properly created an ice chunk up to his neck to trap his entire body. We know from earlier that the water freezes due to the amount of ice generated anyways. And we'll get to physics later too as stated above.]

vs PoH:

The next moment, the entire battlefield was enveloped in a vast, stunning phenomenon on the scale of Stacia’s terrain-altering powers.

From the mist emerged vines of crystal clear ice, binding the bodies of the twenty-thousand-plus Chinese and Korean players, as well as PoH. They looked extremely fragile, likely to shatter the moment you touched them, but the furiously battling soldiers were immobilized so completely that time might as well have stopped by magic. [Vines are being created as usual. The vines bind the bodies of the enemy players. The vines look extremely fragile, but the vines are still strong enough to completely bind the enemy players still in a way that they look as if "they were stopped by magic". They weren't though, they are simply chained by the vines, same as every previous instance. See the consistency, despite the fancier descriptions being used? The power remains the same. It generates ice to bind and trap people, immobilizing them that way. Not by "freezing" people]

After a brief silence, shouts of surprise and anger arose, but they too died down in time. Every avatar wrapped in the icy vines was soon covered in a shroud of frost and frozen solid in moments. [The vines keep increasing their density, causes the frost VFX to increase, and eventually "freezes them solid", same as it did to Kirito and Alice in 2 previous occasions. People use this specific line, "frozen solid" to claim it freezes people. But it never did. Language is a powerful tool and you can draw similarities to make things sound more impactful. "Frozen Solid" can mean something goes completely rigid because they are cold themselves. Or frozen solid [in ice]. Everything has been consistent so far, which should indicate, even without extensive context of the scene, that they are frozen solid in ice, like the 4 previous showcases. It is the exact same pattern over and over]

Asuna briefly glanced over her shoulder toward the red knight who had tried to save Klein. He, too, was an ice sculpture now. But he didn’t seem to be in any pain; his eyes were peacefully closed, as far as she could see through his helm visor. The technique wasn’t meant to destroy or inflict pain, just to stop those it touched. [Someone who is freezes in the literal sense, feels pain. Freezing burns. Someone who is encased in ice, feels cold, not pain. And we'll get to physics later, as well as human biology in Underworld, it is all interconnected]

She faced forward again to see that PoH was frozen white as well. She looked at Sortiliena and nodded to indicate her state. “Thank you, Liena…I’m fine now.”

The chief guard let go of her, and she rushed toward Kirito, crunching the frost on the ground underfoot. Behind her followed Sortiliena and Ronie, who came running up from the Human Guardian Army’s forces.

Kirito was still facedown on the ground, clutching the broken sword in his left hand. But Asuna could tell that at this very moment, his mind was coming back to him. If she could touch his hand, cradle him, call out to him, he would respond. He would surely respond.

The span of a few dozen yards felt like it continued to the ends of the earth. Less than twenty seconds felt longer than eternity. But with each stride of her aching legs, the form of her beloved grew larger and larger in her view. Almost there. Almost within reach…

In the instant that her outstretched hand was going to touch that familiar black hair, she heard a tremendous, earsplitting crash.

The women looked up and saw, very close by, the figure of PoH breaking through the ice vines and frost to take one violent step forward. [And as you can see, PoH here was never unconscious. He uses his own strength to break the ice covering him to free himself]

“I’ve been waiting my whole life for this!! C’mon, Kirito…Let’s dance!!”

But what am I suggesting here? That is "Ice Manipulation", right? There is nothing wrong here?

Well, except the amount of misinterpretations I have seen with all the "Freeze GG"s, I do believe something to be done here. If a term is causing such a different understanding of the power, at least a note should be added that the ability is exclusively "Ice Manipulation" and has no inherent freezing abilities attached. It only and only traps things in layers of ice.

Consecutively, this means the characters that can free themselves from this chunk of ice, do not have any Resistance to Ice Manipulation. They do get trapped in ice by the ability. They just have the strength to break the ice covering them. By no means is this any kind of resistance. The object covering them can be any other thing of the same durability as ice, and they would be able to break it off. It is a simple matter of pure strength. These characters include, but are not limited to PoH, Bercouli, Abyssal Horror and potentially more.

This entire section also comes with the fact that Kirito "does not freeze with the power of Space+", as he does not freeze at all as explained through half a dozen elaborate examples. The following excerpt is the source of the misconception (thanks to Problemexe for providing the excerpt, saving me additional time:

“Release Recollection!!”

A bright light flashed, covering her main vision board. When she could see again a moment later, there were many beams of light shooting from the swordsman’s blade toward the monster.

They looked as tiny as threads compared to the huge spacebeast, but as they pierced through and tangled around its shadowy form, the creature clearly began to lose speed. The twelve appendages writhing on their own stiffened—as though they were freezing solid. [As you can see, it is explicitly shown that the ice vines simply went in and bound the Abyssal Horror, exactly the same way as every other enemy. "As though they were frozen solid", it cannot be clearer than this. It isn't frozen solid, it is bound so strongly by the ice veins that it cannot move.]

But that wasn’t possible. The Abyssal Horror was designed to thrive in the ultra-cold region of outer space. There couldn’t possibly be any chill colder than that. [This sentence by Stica Schtrinen is directly referring to the last thing she narrated right before. "As though they were freezing solid. But that wasn't possible.", the possibility of the beast freezing did not exist! And the beast did not freeze either, as explained above]

One exception I will make to the "Resistance to Ice Manipulation purge" is Subtilizer. The fact of the matter is, Subtilizer is a unique situation that I am not sure if the existing terms can reliably cover, but the most I can conform it into the given standards is that I would say he "does not have any resistance at all, but has the ability to absorb", which ties in with his present "Intangibility, Absorption and Void Manipulation" already. He doesn't resist any of the manipulations thrown at him, but rather "devours" them. The manipulations effectively don't even begin making contact with him to resist. Given this unique case, please do let me know if the resistances still apply or not. But while we are on the topic of Gabriel Miller aka Subtilizer, let's have a look at his ability interactions with Kirito!

Kirito (Post Aincrad) Resistance to Matter, Void, Sleep, Mind, Memory and Soul Manipulations​

This is actually quite easy to refute. The claim stems from the assumption that Kirito resists against the powers of Subtilizer. However, here are three excerpts that showcase that Kirito did not resist any of them, but managed to be unaffected by them through other means unrelated to himself:

First is to establish content. Incarnation is the key here. And Subtilizer being the maniac that he is, has a phenomenal control over incarnation that establishes his abilities. However, Kirito found a crack in his facade when they first met. Realizing fake vs real Gabe:

When one second had passed, I spoke.

“…Who are you?”

His answer was immediate. The man’s voice was smooth and yet somehow metallic in nature.

“One who seeks, steals, and snatches away.”

Instantly, the aura of darkness surrounding his being writhed and amplified. I felt a slight breeze blowing from behind. The air—the very information that made up the world—was being sucked into the darkness.

“What do you seek?”

“Souls.”

With each answer, the suction increased. It wasn’t just the information of the world, either—I felt my own consciousness beginning to succumb to that empty gravity.

Then something resembling an expression floated past his lips. The faintest of smiles, but one utterly removed from anything you might call emotion.

“And who are you? Why are you here? What right do you have to stand before me?” [This is where Gabriels effect on Kirito begins, numbing his mind]

Who…am I?

The hero the Underworld always needed? Hardly.

A knight who protects the human realm? No.

Each suggestion that came to my mind was rejected, and each slipped right out of me, like it was being stolen. And yet, for some reason, I couldn’t stop the thoughts from coming.

The hero who defeated the deadly game of SAO? No.

The greatest VRMMO player alive? No.

The Black Swordsman? The Dual-Wielder? No, no.

None of those things were what I wanted.

So what was I…?

I could feel my mind starting to fade, to slip away—when I thought I heard a familiar voice call my name. [Eugeo speaks to Kirito to snap him out of the numbness, as Kirito himself was not capable of snapping out of it himself]

My head rose—I hadn’t realized it had dipped—and I named myself as I had been called.

“I’m Kirito. Kirito the Swordsman.”

Bzak!! Sparks flew, and the tendrils of darkness clinging to me were cut loose. Immediately, my mind felt sharp and focused again.

What just happened to me?

Was this man using the STL to interfere directly with my mind? I hastily strengthened the defensive wall of imagination around me and focused on the man’s eyes. They were truly empty—bottomless darkness that absorbed the minds of others.

“…And your name is?” I asked, barely realizing what I was doing.

The man thought briefly. “Gabriel. My name is Gabriel Miller.” [Requesting his name, and Gabriel complying with his full real name, taking him out of his illusion for a moment]

I could sense that this was not a character name or an online alias but the man’s actual identity. For just a few seconds, his appearance had changed. His gaze had become sharper, icy, dangerous. His lips pulled back, and his cheekbones sharpened. [Kirito realizes the shift in his attitude and tone when his concentration was taken away from his "Subtilizer" persona]

As his features returned to that earlier fake look, the aura of darkness he exuded instantly thickened. At this stage, I finally realized that the man’s right arm was entirely missing from the shoulder down. The unsteady mass of darkness that was acting as his right arm slid down to his left side and grabbed the sword. [The Subtilizer persona returns almost instantly as there was no situation for Gabriel to lose concentration or question his persona for a prolonged time]

Okay, so two key things here. One is a debunk on Kirito's resist. Kirito did not resist Subtilizer's power at all. He was completely affected by it, same as everybody else. However, everybody else who were affected by it were on their own, whereas Eugeo's memory fragment was with Kirito all along, eventually stepping in, and snapping Kirito out of his mindnumbness created by Gabriel's abilities as an outside force into the equation. Kirito has done absolutely nothing that would warrant him a resistance here. And no, Eugeo does not have a resistance, since he wasn't even targeted by the ability.

Second key tidbit here is a set-up for what comes next. Gabriel is living his dream in Underworld at this point, in control of his incarnation. However here, Kirito realizes that much like everyone else, Subtilizer also has an anchor to reality. The moment he answers with his real world name, his facade fades out for a moment.

Kirito uses razors to break away Gabriel's grasp on Incarnation for a short bit, dealing a direct hit on his belief that he is "Subtilizer, the one who devours all":

“I will now devour your feelings, your memories, your mind and soul…your everything,” said the Angel of Death. I could barely keep my eyelids open to see. [Subti is explicitly going for a symbolic "mind and soul", assuming it's just going to be a meaty bite and nothing more, however the act is a physical one]

Gabriel Miller’s colorless lips opened wide, and as if biting into a ripe apple, his sharp teeth touched the heart he’d stolen from me.

…Creshk.

It made a horrible, bloodcurdling sound.

His mouth gaped and gushed with blood. It wasn’t my blood, however.

And there could be no faulting him for his reaction. He’d bitten down on countless tiny razors that I’d generated with steel elements inside my heart. [He literally just generated tiny metallic elements, they no longer have anything to do with Kirito, they are mere, normal objects that are hidden inside]

“Urgh,” Gabriel grunted, bringing a hand to his mouth and backing away.

Ragged, I said, “As if you would find…the mind or memory…in there. The body is just…a vessel. Memories…are always…” [Taunting Gabe that he gave him something he did not expect. He expected mind and soul, got a heart filled with razors instead]

…in here. Blended together with my consciousness, fused into one, never to be separated.

The pain of having my heart torn out was so great that I couldn’t even call it pain anymore. But this one moment was going to be my last and greatest chance. I would not get another one. [Kirito explains this was his plan all along, searching for a breakaway moment and taking it as the only chance]

Even Eugeo had continued fighting with his body split in two. I spread my swords to either side, my blood spraying everywhere, and shouted, “Release Recollection!!”

Pure white and pitch-black exploded together.

The Blue Rose Sword, pointed straight ahead, emitted many vines of ice, which wrapped themselves dozens of times around Gabriel’s body.

And the Night-Sky Blade, pointed straight up, formed a great pillar of darkness that stretched to the heavens.

The beam of black light extended with a tremendous roar, splitting the bloodred sky to go even beyond it, as if colliding with the sun itself, and spread in every direction.

The sky was covered.

That bloodred color was painted over with stunning speed, and the light of day was drowned out.

The darkness soon reached the horizon, then spread even farther beyond it.

But this was not the darkness of emptiness. It had a smooth texture and a faint warmth to it.

Infinite night.

This is Kirito's plan in execution, much later in the fight. He knew Gabriel, in control of his incarnation could absorb everything thrown his way, so he needed to find a way to break down that incarnation. And he was given the ultimate opportunity. Realizing Gabriel was going for a physical act, Kirito generated metallic elements in the heart that was generated, and the moment Subtilizer ate it, it affected him. Kirito had nothing to do with Gabriel being affected by this, thus again showcases absolutely nothing that warrants him getting any of the resistances. What happens is that Gabriel, to accomplish a physical act, has to go physical himself and was also facing a danger he did not know even existed (metallic elements created without his knowledge, otherwise he would have been able to do something), ends up harming him. More context can be seen from his own perspective with more clear descriptions.

Gabriel's point of view, explaining his loosening grip on his Incarnate persona:

Gabriel Miller was in disbelief that he could be bound by mere ice. [He is completely surprised because this never happened before, he completely devoured all]

A moment earlier, he had rebuffed magic attacks of every kind, and he had even nullified a slash attack from a sword.

Yes, the dozens of razors that the boy had implanted in his own heart had damaged him. But that was only because his mental image of chewing had given him a solid, physical mouth. At this point, his entire being was covered in a thick layer of defensive darkness. [Gabriel explains why the razors were able to damage him, it was partially his fault too and had nothing to do with Kirito's "resistance". And this led to him questioning his being as "Subtilizer, the one who devours all" so for the duration of his confusion, he no longer had proper control of his ability to devour. Reference for doubt: v10, Alicization Running, Kirito failing a skill due to doubting if he would be able to do it]

I am the one who reaps. The one who steals all heat, all life, all existence.

I am the abyss. [He regains his belief and his avatar starts reacting accordingly again, snapping out of the ice-rose veins]

“NULLLLLLL!!” he growled, but it was not so much a word as it was an inhuman sound that tore through his suggestion of a throat.

The three pairs of black wings on his back all transformed into blades of emptiness, just like the one in his right hand. They beat violently, tearing the space around them. The pale vines of ice were severed, giving him freedom of movement again.

“LLLLLLL!!” he howled, an openmouthed discordance, arranging his seven empty swords—hand and wings—in every direction.

As you can see, Kirito never resisted any of Gabriel's powers here at all. Whenever Kirito was able to affect him, it was always due to a different reason that had nothing to do with Kirito. As a result, Kirito's Resistance to Matter, Void, Sleep, Mind, Memory and Soul Manipulations should be removed, as he has not resisted any of them. Thus the resistances have 0 basis and should be removed.

Some additional references that came up during goalposting which adds further context to the scenes above​

Most issues stem from the fact that a lot of people decide to ignore what Underworld is, and try to apply real world equivalents, when we explicitly know that Underworld does not work that way. We got plenty of instances that keep highlighting that Underworld is just a game on many aspects, not allowing any kind of real-world-equivalences. Here are some remarks and their rebuttals.

Humans are made out of 70% water, so the Blue Rose Sword can freeze them!!! They can breathe in the mist and thus have water that can be frozen!!!

First off, in the main body, we have already covered that the Blue Rose Sword doesn't actively freeze water either, it's more that its after effects, like the coldness of the ice affecting the water, the speed of which can be extremely fast, but not an "ability to freeze" nevertheless.

Secondly, Humans in Underworld are not 70% water. In fact, they do not even have a proper biology to them. They are literally avatars. Here's an excerpt from v20, Moon Cradle (II) as to how the Underworlders do not have insides:

Shockingly, the cathedral—in fact, the entire Underworld—had not a single toilet. The people of this world ate food but did not expel waste.

That characteristic was true of the real-worlders Asuna and Kirito while they were here, too, of course. Though she’d recently gotten used to the concept, she couldn’t help but wonder, when feeling stuffed after a big meal, where that food was supposed to be going.

Kirito had much more experience in the Underworld than Asuna, and he took it in stride. “Someone at Rath probably figured that simulating bowel movements wasn’t necessary for raising an AI,” he said.

And once again, I have to highlight the consistency. Underworld is created with the Seed engine, and there is nothing there that is not necessary to exist. This is a recurring theme in all the games featured in SAO.

Whatever intake the characters have in Underworld, it is simply converted over to their energy. If the air is moist or if they drank too much water, that doesn't mean the person has a higher chance to freeze, because the moment they intake it, all of those just suitably satisfies the required parameters. For example, if you were losing HP due to starving, eating will stop the decline and start filling your HP instead.

Of course, there are people who will say "But the characters sweat", yeah, so did characters in all the previous games. So do the characters in the games you play today. They are separately programmed features. Underworld is just a game, not the ultimate "Surgeon Simulator" that has any need for organs. Underworld explicitly does not match the real world in this aspect.

People will say "But the characters bleed", yeah. So did the characters in all the previous games, with the only difference of them being for general audiences, so instead of blood, you bled polygonal effects in all of them. Do you not bleed in the games you play today? You do. You have been for decades now.

Moving to the third point, while humans in Underworld do not have a biology, a majority of things still do exist as "status effects". For example, you eat bad food, you will get a "poison" debuff. You get trapped in ice for a prolonged period and you may get a "flu" status effect. If you overexhaust yourself, much like the other status effects, you do not lose physical efficiency, but you do lose HP.

All in all, there is no physicality to the things in Underworld, but rather the same "game mechanics" that exist in all the other games, limited to the mechanics of course.

Frost covers everyone, they must be frozen!!!

No. Because particle effects are literally just "particle effects". That frost has 0 physical reference point, 0 physical effect. It's just an effect created by the ice effects of the Blue Rose Sword in these examples. Here, again, from the same excerpt from v20, Moon Cradle (II):

The first time she was shown to the room, Asuna’s initial thought was that it must be incredibly hard to clean…but in the Underworld, dust and dirt were essentially treated like visual effects, not physical matter, so a bit of swinging away with a broom or duster was all it took to dispel the grime. It was Kirito who noted wryly that the process was more like retouching a digital photo than actual cleaning.

Physically speaking, they are meaningless. They are just additional visual effects to give a sense of variety/reality.

Space is 2 degrees Kelvin, Abyssal Horror must have Ice Resistance to survive there!

Again, we are talking about a game, not a full, atom-based simulation with perfect realism. If we are going to assume everything abides by real world properties, than all three, Asuna, Kirito and Alice must get "Heat Resistance" because they were in the void of space while sun was shining onto them, which would mean they would reach 120 degrees Celsius! They were not. In fact, what Kirito felt was a little bit of a chill, which meant it was definitely colder than usual, so he generated some Luminous Elements to create a thin barrier to protect the trio from the cold.

Oh, by the way, they were fully able to breathe with 0 issues at all, even before Kirito generated a protective barrier (which wouldn't help generate any air anyways if it was empty space). Once again, it is a clear showcase of contradicting our reality, thus real world equivalences cannot be applied here.

We got basic heat interactions, yes. Space is cold. Winter is cold. Mountains are cold. But since none of it is actually a fully real atom based simulation, all of these are just programmed in stuff with limited interaction and limited meaning. Trying to draw real life equivalents is meaningless as they do not conform to our reality.

For now, that covers all. Quite the sizeable clean-up, but I don't think these affect the scale of the characters. Just removal of certain abilities and the addition of a note or a deeper look into the Ice Manipulation specifics.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

I agree with this.

 

[DMUA]

As the resistances, it's self evident that it isn't inherent, but if the barriers that Kirito put up after snapping out of Gabriel's mental effect weren't able to actually resist his ability, then Gabriel has no reason to not just do it all over again and just kill Kirito while he's vunerable right then and there, but in turn you could probably argue it would just take more time and effort to drain the incarnation that way, so...

I'll move onto the thing I disagree with overall, which is the ice revisions.

It's not really overtly stated that the blue rose sword is incapable of freezing the people inside, it's just that the main purpose of it is to surround them in ice. You actually mention how the physiology of people in the Underworld is made distinct from how people are in real life, considering they don't really have normal vital systems and they do basically everything based off of innate life points. If they start to overexert themselves, they don't get tired in the sense where they can't keep functioning at full capacity, they just start using life points. And I do remember you mentioning that apart of the purpose of making the barrier to protect themselves from the cold in space was also because, they started losing life, not because they started feeling the heat leave their arms or something akin to that. (By the way, as a side note: the Exosphere can actually go up to 1700 Celsius depending on the conditions, but in turn can go all the way down to 0 degrees Celsius. Considering it was chilly, it was probably the latter)

If freezing the targets themselves wasn't actually a factor in any capacity, then why would the narration go out of its way to note that freezing the abyssal horror (or by your proposition, trapping them in particularly tough ice to stop them from moving) is impossible (or at least, it seemed as much from their perspective), because one can't make ice that's colder than space? That shouldn't be necessary in the slightest to just trap them... Unless the blue rose sword indeed did have freezing the target as one of it's functions.

Someone who is freezes in the literal sense, feels pain. Freezing burns. Someone who is encased in ice, feels cold, not pain.

I mean, the underworld's lack of realism extends to this too. Being encased in ice, having it touch every part of your body, would still make you feel an extremely discomforting sensation of cold, even if not outright painful. Even if you were to say that heat transfer also isn't a thing in the Underworld, that's in turn contradicted by the Bercoli fight when the entire pool is frozen, instead of a wave of ice just being made through it. The fact that he just closes his eyes peacefully is likely just a result of being incapacitated immediately before they could properly react to said sensation, likely through their life points blinking out that rapidly.

Alice and PoH not being effected in the same way is a textbook resistance. You show that an ability can have a specific effect, but when it's used on another character, that effect doesn't properly work. Even if in this case, it's within the context of attack potency/durability (as the threat of cold is a matter of life points rather than physical phenomenon), that doesn't apply to most other fiction. Which... Really, is one of the weird things about VSBW. A lot of fictional elements between stories contradict themselves, but we try our best to try and fit the pieces together. In this case, if someone doesn't have the physiology of someone in the Underworld, they wouldn't be able to just shrug off the cold and shatter the ice with sheer strength.

 

[Kaantantr]

As the resistances, it's self evident that it isn't inherent, but if the barriers that Kirito put up after snapping out of Gabriel's mental effect weren't able to actually resist his ability, then Gabriel has no reason to not just do it all over again and just kill Kirito while he's vunerable right then and there, but in turn you could probably argue it would just take more time and effort to drain the incarnation that way, so...

Gabriel did the exact same thing against Bercouli. He prefers playing with his prey. He even explicitly says so, in both cases. The only person he is frustratedly leaving behind is Sinon after getting hit by her.

I'll move onto the thing I disagree with overall, which is the ice revisions.

It's not really overtly stated that the blue rose sword is incapable of freezing the people inside, it's just that the main purpose of it is to surround them in ice.

If its main purpose is to trap people in ice, then you need to provide an example of it actually explicitly "freezing" someone. Because as I covered above in an extensive and elaborate manner, not a single instance of "freezing". I have included every single instance of Blue Rose Sword action.

You actually mention how the physiology of people in the Underworld is made distinct from how people are in real life, considering they don't really have normal vital systems and they do basically everything based off of innate life points. If they start to overexert themselves, they don't get tired in the sense where they can't keep functioning at full capacity, they just start using life points. And I do remember you mentioning that apart of the purpose of making the barrier to protect themselves from the cold in space was also because, they started losing life, not because they started feeling the heat leave their arms or something akin to that.

That is correct. They are not bothered by any lack of air, and mildly inconvenienced by the cold. They do feel the cold mind you, not just lose HP because of its existence.

If freezing the targets themselves wasn't actually a factor in any capacity, then why would the narration go out of its way to note that freezing the abyssal horror (or by your proposition, trapping them in particularly tough ice to stop them from moving) is impossible (or at least, it seemed as much from their perspective), because one can't make ice that's colder than space? That shouldn't be necessary in the slightest to just trap them... Unless the blue rose sword indeed did have freezing the target as one of it's functions.

Uhmmmm, have you read my explanation of the Abyssal Horror scene above because I am not sure where the miscommunication is happening here? I went much more explicit than in the VS thread here and it is quite clear what happened. Even Stica's narration says "It's as if it's frozen.... But it cannot be, because you would need something colder than space and that ain't it!". It is extremely clear that the Abyssal Horror has been bound by the vines too. She even explains what happened. With the vines shooting towards the Abyssal Horror, it's movement becoming slower once the vines start going through and around it, because the vines increase their grip. And how it would be impossible to actually be frozen. It is the same act as all the previous ones, on a larger scale. Not a single difference. Perfect consistency.

I mean, the underworld's lack of realism extends to this too. Being encased in ice, having it touch every part of your body, would still make you feel an extremely discomforting sensation of cold, even if not outright painful.

Discomforting, potentially. As discomforting as getting impaled in the head with a sword with the pain absorber non-existant? A death without bloodshed? That sounds extremely peaceful.

Even if you were to say that heat transfer also isn't a thing in the Underworld,

I did not say that. But I would say calling it "heat transfer" would make it too realistic, as it implies transfer of atomic energy. That's why I spent a long time trying to distinguish between reality and game. As I repeated a bunch of times, we do see the generated ice causing the water to be affected too.

that's in turn contradicted by the Bercoli fight when the entire pool is frozen, instead of a wave of ice just being made through it. The fact that he just closes his eyes peacefully is likely just a result of being incapacitated immediately before they could properly react to said sensation, likely through their life points blinking out that rapidly.

It's more of a combination of accepting his faith and also losing strength due to the drain.

Alice and PoH not being effected in the same way is a textbook resistance.

Alice and PoH do not get affected any differently than the Whirling Blades, Fanatio herself and everybody else. As I explained during the Fanatio scene, she literally keeps shooting until her Heaven Piercing Blade is perfectly restrained as well. And she does not have a free flowing Memory Ability like Alice does. And even then, she puts all her strength to keep lifting the Blade back up to aim at them. Eugeo tries to further focus on the Perfect Weapon Control to keep her frozen, and even gets frustrated that he cannot create ice faster than she breaks them, at which point, Kirito lectures Eugeo about not fighting with hatred and then activates his own Perfect Weapon Control to counter Fanatio. It is the bit I did not include, as the excerpts are long already, but it's literally overcoming a physical restraint, nothing to do with freezing. I can add it in if you want it.

You show that an ability can have a specific effect, but when it's used on another character, that effect doesn't properly work. Even if in this case, it's within the context of attack potency/durability (as the threat of cold is a matter of life points rather than physical phenomenon), that doesn't apply to most other fiction. Which... Really, is one of the weird things about VSBW. A lot of fictional elements between stories contradict themselves, but we try our best to try and fit the pieces together. In this case, if someone doesn't have the physiology of someone in the Underworld, they wouldn't be able to just shrug off the cold and shatter the ice with sheer strength.

I can accept that. And that's why I have no issues with accepting something like "Well, if you get stuck in ice for too long, you'll likely actually freeze", despite that would never happen in Underworld where you won't freeze but eventually lose all HP and die that was instead. But the moment you say "The ability is to freeze", well, that is an insta freeze, contradicting the circumstances of what the ability does within the universe.

Just because this CRT crawled out of the Kiri vs Kratos, let me put it this way.

"Freeze GG" is not a valid conclusion. Because Kirito does not instantly freeze the opponent. A valid conclusion (without me knowing anything about Kratos' abilities) would go like this:

Kirito traps Kratos in ice;

A) Kratos breaks the ice in a reasonable amount of time because he has the strength to

B) Kratos cannot break the ice in a reasonable time and actually ends up freezing in it

And at that point, the conversation is not about Resistance to Ice Manipulation. It has nothing to do with ice at all. It's all about whether Kratos has the strength to break out of the shackles he was put into, whatever the shackles are.

 

[DMUA]

Gabriel did the exact same thing against Bercouli. He prefers playing with his prey. He even explicitly says so, in both cases. The only person he is frustratedly leaving behind is Sinon after getting hit by her.

yeah that makes sense, which I can really just say across the board I dunno how I entirely missed the abyssal horror part the first go round but live and learn, anyways

Honestly I don't really have any follow up, I do agree with the fact that it would result in freezing but the discussion would also have to account for them being able to be released from the ice.

 

[Kaantantr]

yeah that makes sense, which I can really just say across the board I dunno how I entirely missed the abyssal horror part the first go round but live and learn, anyways

Oh don't even mention it, I read it countless times myself and just speaking with you guys a whole bunch of times, I never realized myself that Stica literally describes the vines moving its way. It was never a line that ever caught my mind before.

Honestly I don't really have any follow up, I do agree with the fact that it would result in freezing but the discussion would also have to account for them being able to be released from the ice.

Yeah, and at that point, it's the topic of the actual VS people who want to argue about it. I'm just here to establish the accurate baseline for Kirito, I am not particularly interested in the VS aspect of things

 

[Smashtwig]

I have a question

If everyone like, agrees that ice just does trapping things, why does it matter how cold it is?

Also, if I recall, AH came from the “edge of the universe”… but isn’t the universe in this case just…. 2 planets and a star? At that point, wouldn’t the cosmic radiation from the star be like…. Hot…? Like, we can’t use 2 Degrees Kelvin at that point.

 

[DMUA]

It'll actually freeze the target within faster for one thing

After a certain distance it's going to rapidly drop off, as demonstrated by the fact that just outside the atmosphere is considered noticably cold

I did actually think about that, but a place like Mars for example gets as low as -70 Celsius anyways, so

 

[Bernkastelll]

This seems good to me, I agree

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

I agree with this

 

[Smashtwig]

I did actually think about that, but a place like Mars for example gets as low as -70 Celsius anyways, so

but wouldn’t the edge of the universe be the orbit of the planet… since that would be the furthest celestial object from the star… which in the Goldilocks Zone?

 

[DMUA]

It's the orbit of two different planets in this case, and consdiering it's supposed to be a good distance away from both planets to avoid detection, it would probably be either at the very border of it or beyond that

And besides, the Goldilocks Zone doesn't really mean anything if there's no atmosphere to absorb the heat.

 

[Smashtwig]

Bet

 

[Cosmic_King_of_SAO]

This seems good, I agree. (The ice manipulation is getting out of hand imo.)

The Blue Rose Sword more so covers the target in ice rather than freezing them, is that what you're going for? Just asking.

 

[Cyberblader90]

.
Resistance to Void Manipulation & Absorption (Energy & Soul)
Before my eyes, my puncture wounds were already crawling with bluish-black void, threatening to consume my existence.

“Ugh…!”

I groaned again, then took a deep breath, and yelled. I barely managed to blow away the void, but a great deal of blood spurted from my fresh wounds.

Resistance to basically everything else listed minus Sleep Manipulation.

“Your feelings, your memories, everything of your heart and your soul... I will now devour it all.”
The angel of death proclaimed. I gazed down at him through half- closed eyes.
Gabriel Miller’s colorless lips parted wide, as if about to bite down on a ripe apple, and sank his sharp teeth into my plundered heart.
...Squish.
There was a dreadful noise.
His white face contorted intensely; great volumes of blood that was not mine gushed from his mouth.
Of course.
He had bitten into the great number of tiny blades I generated inside my own heart from Metallic Elements.
“Unf...”
Gabriel covered his mouth and pulled back.
I moaned scratchily:
“How are you gonna find... my spirit and memories in there? My body’s just... a container. My memories... will always be...”
Right here.
Merged with my consciousness itself, never to be separated.
The pain of my heart getting torn to shreds was brutalized beyond description. But this moment was my biggest and final opportunity. There wouldn’t be a second chance if I missed it.

 

[Kaantantr]

Should be bad practice to share a single line with 0 context to claim something in a way that isolates the situation from its context, just so you can claim something else.

.
Resistance to Void Manipulation & Absorption (Energy & Soul)
Before my eyes, my puncture wounds were already crawling with bluish-black void, threatening to consume my existence.

“Ugh…!”

I groaned again, then took a deep breath, and yelled. I barely managed to blow away the void, but a great deal of blood spurted from my fresh wounds.

Here's the full context as to what kind of an attack it was:

Right when the light began to gather there, Gabriel raised his hand, curved the fingers like claws, then opened them wide.

Over ten bolts of black lightning spread outward, then bent at sharp angles and bore down on me. I gritted my teeth and put up an imaginary wall for defense. I’d had total confidence when I’d used the same technique to protect Alice’s dragons from the lightning, but half of my concentration was going to healing my arm now—and it was that very understanding that weakened the strength of the shield.

Dull vibrations rattled my body in several places. Three bolts of darkness penetrated my shield and drove into my torso and legs. Before the pain, I felt only a ferocious chill running through my senses. There was blue-black nothingness clinging to the places where I was zapped, eating away at my very existence.

“Rrrgh!!” I grunted again, then sucked in a breath and screamed for energy. It dispersed the emptiness, but fresh blood gushed from the new wounds that remained.

It was basically an Umbral Projectile attack, which left burn marks where they wounded Kirito. And all types of wounds eat away at your very existence. As long as wounds are not treated, they literally continue to drain your HP. Kirito at this point is not in a good situation to use incarnation to heal his wounds, he's trying to do way too much at the same time, thus is not efficient in any of them. He manages to clean up the wound from the after effects of the umbral attack, but cannot seal the physical wounds that remain. But since the umbral after effects have been cleaned up, which were acting as a barrier around those wounds preventing blood from gushing out (same as how you should not take a bullet out of yourself without a proper medic, as the bullet may be holding the wound stable and preventing it from losing blood where it punctured), with the patch of umbral elements gone, now there is nothing holding the wounds stable and the blood effects appear, continuing to drain Kirito's HP through different means.

We know for a fact that Gabriel is not using any of his abilities to finish things quickly here and everything boils down to basic sacred arts.

Resistance to basically everything else listed minus Sleep Manipulation.

“Your feelings, your memories, everything of your heart and your soul... I will now devour it all.”
The angel of death proclaimed. I gazed down at him through half- closed eyes.
Gabriel Miller’s colorless lips parted wide, as if about to bite down on a ripe apple, and sank his sharp teeth into my plundered heart.
...Squish.
There was a dreadful noise.
His white face contorted intensely; great volumes of blood that was not mine gushed from his mouth.
Of course.
He had bitten into the great number of tiny blades I generated inside my own heart from Metallic Elements.
“Unf...”
Gabriel covered his mouth and pulled back.
I moaned scratchily:
“How are you gonna find... my spirit and memories in there? My body’s just... a container. My memories... will always be...”
Right here.
Merged with my consciousness itself, never to be separated.
The pain of my heart getting torn to shreds was brutalized beyond description. But this moment was my biggest and final opportunity. There wouldn’t be a second chance if I missed it.

This was already extensively explained in the main post. Kirito doesn't resist anything here. The **** up is completely caused by Gabe himself.

 

[Vietthai96]

Kaantantr make sense to me, so there is no such a thing called void in Underworld, it is just an elemental thing like a game. So Void Manip, Void Manip Resistance and NEP should be remove???

 

[Kaantantr]

Generally speaking, you can argue both ways depending on your interpretation. Elements do exist and Umbral Element can be the equivalent of Void from my understanding. Same way Cryogenic Element can be the equivalent of Ice, Thermal Element can be Heat/Fire etc. But underneath all of that, they all are technically just magic. So instead of categorizing them with individual resistances to specific things, they actually do come down to magic resistance. But that is only when someone is actually "resisting" their potency.

Pretty much in all cases, there is no "resisting" going on in Underworld, it is always "Counteracting, using its counter element & shape".

For example, to counteract Umbral Element attacks efficiently, you need to use Luminous Elements. This even extends to specific physical properties of items. For example, when Alice uses her Memory Ability, Chudelkin initially uses Cryogenic Element attacks, which turn physical, which are easily shredded by Alice's petals. After Quinella berates him about being an idiot and that he cannot use a physical attack effectively against the petals, he picks up on the tip and uses Thermal Elements to conjure his Flame Giant, a non-physical entity that Alice cannot counter with her physical petals.

And if you compare this to what happens Gabriel, it is exactly the same too. Gabriel was a "darkness entity" when he turned into his Angel of Death form. So, he was classified as an Umbral Element entity. Aside from him devouring incarnation, that also factored into him being borderline completely unaffected by physical sword attacks. However, after his grasp on his own incarnation is broken, after he mistakenly goes partially physical and then lose his concentration on his facade, Kirito actually gets to restrain him with ice veins for a bit, until he breaks away and regains his control.

So again, just to summarize, combat can be quite layered with all the different properties flying around in tandem, but they all have a clearly defined logic to them that prevents the concepts from meshing together.

You do not exactly resist the elements at all in Underworld, you just counteract them using your own elements.

However, non-element abilities (so non-Sacred Arts or non-magic in general), like the absorption or mind manipulation or sleep manipulation, they can technically be resisted. It's just that they were not resisted at all in any of the cases we had in the stories. In theory, if Kirito were to have a stronger incarnation than Gabriel, he would have been able to resist getting his mind numbed by Gabriel. Same with Bercouli. Same with Alice when he got grabbed by Gabe's dragon and put to sleep by Gabe. But none of them were powerful enough to resist Gabe. Kirito was snapped out of it by Eugeo, Bercouli was snapped out of it by the pain of the attack he received from Gabriel. After both of which, Gabriel wanted to play with his pray and didn't use the abilities again against the two.

The only peculiar instance would be Sinon vs Subti, however since I do not want to go off on another tangent, Sinon too was not resisting Gabriel's mind numbing. Her incarnate necklace burned Gabriel just when he was closing in, that pushed him back and let Sinon out of his own grasp due to that. So basically, same situation as the razor blades in heart scenario in Kirito vs Gabe.

 

[Vietthai96]

I think Umbral Element is Darkness???

 

[Kaantantr]

It isn't "Darkness" per se. It's just "Dark looking element". Same as "Luminous Element" is not "Light Element", it's "Shiny Element". Aqueous Element is not "Water Element" but rather "Watery Element". They are specifically named with those additions that imply likeness, rather than the exact substance to differentiate.

Some of the elements, you can solidify to create the exact matter it is like, like Cryogenic can be materialized into Ice and Metallic can be materialized into metal. But what do you do with "Aerial Element"? You cannot turn it into more air. That's what I mean by "likeness". They are not the exact thing they feature in their name, they possess similar properties to the word used in their name.

In regards to Umbral Element, you can counter Luminous attacks with it, create smoke distractions/obstruct the views of people, or use its "sucking-like" properties to like track an object, like Kirito does to track the Blue Rose Sword. The thing is, you can basically use all commands on all elements, but it will differ in their potency or result. An example would be the command "Adhere", meaning "stick to the surface".

Like mentioned above, Kirito generates an Umbral Element and uses the command "Adhere", also attaching the object ID of the Blue Rose Sword, which causes the generated element to start moving towards the location of where the object currently is. You could generate a Luminous Element and use the exact same adhere command, but chances are, that element would not be able to track the object at all. However, that's not because the command doesn't work or the element is a lesser element, it's just that it's competency is not on that field. You can for example pick up an object, generate a Luminous Element and use Adhere to the object you are holding right next to it, and the Luminous Element will stick to it and now you can use that item as a torch until the element runs out. Alternatively, you can generate a Thermal Element and use that on the tip of the item to start a fire and use it as a torch that way etc. It's a very flexible system where you just need to know what the elements are good at and what yields from specific combinations of commands.

Usually, basic knowledge of English is enough since they are all English system commands.

 

[Vietthai96]

It isn't "Darkness" per se. It's just "Dark looking element". Same as "Luminous Element" is not "Light Element", it's "Shiny Element". Aqueous Element is not "Water Element" but rather "Watery Element". They are specifically named with those additions that imply likeness, rather than the exact substance to differentiate.

So if this is true then Umbral is no Void, Dark looking thing is not enough to warrant it being a void, void as in literally: void of nothingness. Unless the verse specifically detailed the Umbral Element being the Void itself, then no, it is not a Void

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Having had first hand experience with debate involving this and reading through the excerpts provided in the OP.

I agree with modifications.

 

[Cyberblader90]

bump

 

[Kaantantr]

So, do we assume this decided or do we need more mod participation?

 

[Vietthai96]

Hum, should we call Problemexe?, even though his argument mostly kinda meh, he is SAO supporter, i think he have right to present his opinion here.

So, do we assume this decided or do we need more mod participation?

Well staffs need to evaluated the thread, but before that we need to summerize the main points.

Wait, no one going to debunk my comment on the Void thing???

 

[Kaantantr]

You may call whoever you feel should provide their take.

 

[DMUA]

Wait, no one going to debunk my comment on the Void thing???

People don't usually do that when you make a reasonable statement such as "darkness energy is not a void necessary"

 

[Vietthai96]

People don't usually do that when you make a reasonable statement such as "darkness energy is not a void necessary"

Well....uhhh, alright. Also sorry for derailing but you guy forgot edit this guy after the AP revision thread: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Abyssal_Horror

 

[Joycap]

I'm completely neutral party when it comes to the whole Ice/System Elements thing. Trying to make any kind of distinction is skirting the meat of the matter imho, so I won't say anything on it.

As far as this thread, though... there is one bit that caught my eye:

Kirito (Post Aincrad) Resistance to Matter, Void, Sleep, Mind, Memory and Soul Manipulations​

This is actually quite easy to refute. The claim stems from the assumption that Kirito resists against the powers of Subtilizer. However, here are three excerpts that showcase that Kirito did not resist any of them, but managed to be unaffected by them through other means unrelated to himself:

First is to establish content. Incarnation is the key here. And Subtilizer being the maniac that he is, has a phenomenal control over incarnation that establishes his abilities. However, Kirito found a crack in his facade when they first met. Realizing fake vs real Gabe:

When one second had passed, I spoke.

“…Who are you?”

His answer was immediate. The man’s voice was smooth and yet somehow metallic in nature.

“One who seeks, steals, and snatches away.”

Instantly, the aura of darkness surrounding his being writhed and amplified. I felt a slight breeze blowing from behind. The air—the very information that made up the world—was being sucked into the darkness.

“What do you seek?”

“Souls.”

With each answer, the suction increased. It wasn’t just the information of the world, either—I felt my own consciousness beginning to succumb to that empty gravity.

Then something resembling an expression floated past his lips. The faintest of smiles, but one utterly removed from anything you might call emotion.

“And who are you? Why are you here? What right do you have to stand before me?” [This is where Gabriels effect on Kirito begins, numbing his mind]

Who…am I?

The hero the Underworld always needed? Hardly.

A knight who protects the human realm? No.

Each suggestion that came to my mind was rejected, and each slipped right out of me, like it was being stolen. And yet, for some reason, I couldn’t stop the thoughts from coming.

The hero who defeated the deadly game of SAO? No.

The greatest VRMMO player alive? No.

The Black Swordsman? The Dual-Wielder? No, no.

None of those things were what I wanted.

So what was I…?

I could feel my mind starting to fade, to slip away—when I thought I heard a familiar voice call my name. [Eugeo speaks to Kirito to snap him out of the numbness, as Kirito himself was not capable of snapping out of it himself]

My head rose—I hadn’t realized it had dipped—and I named myself as I had been called.

“I’m Kirito. Kirito the Swordsman.”

Bzak!! Sparks flew, and the tendrils of darkness clinging to me were cut loose. Immediately, my mind felt sharp and focused again.

What just happened to me?

Was this man using the STL to interfere directly with my mind? I hastily strengthened the defensive wall of imagination around me and focused on the man’s eyes. They were truly empty—bottomless darkness that absorbed the minds of others.

I could feel my mind starting to fade, to slip away—when I thought I heard a familiar voice call my name. [Eugeo speaks to Kirito to snap him out of the numbness, as Kirito himself was not capable of snapping out of it himself]

...Implying that the then-dead Eugeo wasn't a part of Blue Rose by this point in the story? Which as far as I'm aware is simply a power that Kirito has access to (see also Incarnate Arms etc.)?

I seem to recall the Discord and I having a similar conversation:

 

[Kaantantr]

Eugeo's memory fragment existed in the Blue Rose Sword until the end of the Subtilizer battle, yes. Whether you consider him "Alive" or not will be based on your perspective to what "life" is. I would only call it an echo of Eugeo, hence why I don't consider him to be alive. That doesn't change the fact that the remaining echo does have some agency, much like other weapons with a memory.

 

[Joycap]

Eugeo's memory fragment existed in the Blue Rose Sword until the end of the Subtilizer battle, yes. Whether you consider him "Alive" or not will be based on your perspective to what "life" is. I would only call it an echo of Eugeo, hence why I don't consider him to be alive. That doesn't change the fact that the remaining echo does have some agency, much like other weapons with a memory.

Right, and how do you think this remaining memory fragment would behave in a VS format? Because the thing that I'm reminded of in this instance is the Xenoblade VS debates I've had with a few people that think (and sorry if this sounds like a tangent) Shulk shouldn't technically have access to Monado III because he abandoned it at the end of XC1.
The Memory Fragment in BRS in this instance sounds very similar, and I'd like to clear up whether or not you're saying that the only mitigation (in this case, Eugeo's Memory fragment in BRS) should be struck off because it no longer exists in the series narrative (hence, people misinterpreting the Monado III example), or whether or not you meant something else?

 

[Kaantantr]

That is completely off topic so I don't want to go too deep into it. It would act no different than Gigas Cedar being the Blue Rose Sword, the Osmanthus Tree being the Osmanthus Sword, Phoenix being the Conflagration Bow etc. It's just a part of the sword.

 

[Joycap]

That is completely off topic so I don't want to go too deep into it. It would act no different than Gigas Cedar being the Blue Rose Sword, the Osmanthus Tree being the Osmanthus Sword, Phoenix being the Conflagration Bow etc. It's just a part of the sword.

And why would it not be in Kirito's powerset to resist these? Because for our purposes, possession of an item (in this case, BRS) would give him that ability

 

[Kaantantr]

So you mean Kirito should have these resisting powers because Eugeo's echo snapped him out of it when Kirito was in possession of the Blue Rose Sword where the memory echo resided? Well...

Then everyone should have that resisting ability, since Eugeo's echo meddled with half a dozen people who did not even have the weapon at their disposal. Eugeo snapping Kirito out of it had nothing to do with the fact that Kirito possessed the Blue Rose Sword. It was because Eugeo wanted to help him. The same way Eugeo spoke to Tiese, or pushed Eldrie to keep going. It was the agency of the memory of the sword that decided to do these, completely irrelevant to who held the weapon.

A good comparison would be Alice's memory fragment on the ceiling, yelling to Eugeo to run away before Quinella wakes up when Eugeo was falling under her manipulations. Alice's memory fragment was not even a weapon, it was just an object with an echo saved onto it. A weapon is just that. "Just an object"

 

[Kaantantr]

Bumping for participation from the mods so we can seal this.

 

[Vietthai96]

So look like no more disagreement. So look like most agree with what OP propose. So also propose my own addition to this thread as follow:
Remove Void Manipulation for Subtilizer as Umbral Element like Kaantantr said before is Dark locking Element, not an actual Void of Nothingess so void manip should be remove. So obviously Kirito Void Resistance will also be remove as there is no void for him to withstand in the first place. Is anyone else disagree with this???

 

[Joycap]

So if most of the things that are getting Kirito nerfed pertain to the nature of the Cardinal System (dragon larval state isn't moon level because age was modified / core protection), what does program manipulation fall under?

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

So if most of the things that are getting Kirito nerfed pertain to the nature of the Cardinal System (dragon larval state isn't moon level because age was modified / core protection), what does program manipulation fall under?

information manipulation

 

[Kaantantr]

Oh, that's the first time I'm hearing this, and that is incredibly fitting actually. Every act of Incarnation is technically just that, since it is a system feature that alters the simulation itself.

But I feel like that's another rabbit hole that first needs to be dug up properly and is a bit out of scope for this thread.

 

[Joycap]

Oh, that's the first time I'm hearing this, and that is incredibly fitting actually. Every act of Incarnation is technically just that, since it is a system feature that alters the simulation itself.

But I feel like that's another rabbit hole that first needs to be dug up properly and is a bit out of scope for this thread.

And tbh it's a rabbit hole I don't want to go down, because it'd mean nerfing Kirito 10x over if the justification for his power set is 'it's tapping into a program he doesn't generally have access to'. Unless you want to argue that Cardinal is similar to Chakra / Morphing Grid tropes, because the narrative conceit of VR is for it to be it's own reality.