The Presence Tier 0 Remake

[Hellsing]

I’m gonna write this answer in a weird way, but I believe in this way, it makes more sense.

Are the Presence, Source and Overvoid boundless?

Yes.

Because the true form of these beings is the Writer, or one aspect of;

The Creator
A.K.A. The Writer, The Director, The Artist, The Overvoid, The Author, The Source, The Presence, The Hand, The Voice, The One Above All, The Creator, God.

I know it says “The One Above All”. I’ll get to that in a bit.

---

First, let’s establish that the Overvoid, Presence and Source are all the same entity.

Grant Morrison once said that the White Page in DC is God, The Source and the Void (Overvoid)

So, for those who like to claim that the “God” that Morrison refers to isn’t the Presence, I present you with the 70 years of DC comics that saw the two as one and the same.

Here God is referred to as the Divine Presence

And as The Spectre is talking to his Creator and Master, who we know to be The Presence, he’s referred to as God

This entire panel states that the Presence is connected to the to the Void beyond Conscious Thought

Via the Oversoul:

So, The Presence = Overvoid

---

Here, on a hand drawn sketch by Grant Morrison himself, the creator of the Overvoid,

the Source is literally referred to as the White Page

In the corners surrounding the map, there’s “Source” written everywhere.

If you’ve seen the finished map of the Multiverse, you see that all the whiteness, AKA, the White Page, is call the Overvoid

Then, in Dark Nights: Death Metal Rise of the New God, The Chronicler is stated as a functionary of the Source, sent from the Overvoid

And then this

So The Source = The Overvoid

And then this infamous scan

The Source = The Presence

So the Source = The Presence = The Overvoid.

Then there’s The One Above All, who exists as another name for The Source in DC

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

So like. Where is your proof of these things being avatars of the Writer.

Because this entire thread just seems to be "The Source = The Presence = The Overvoid". Which is already accepted but won't make them Tier 0. In fact DC is only Tier 0 through the Writer being a clearly separate and far stronger being than the Overvoid. So even if you truly proved that they're all the same being, you'd likely lose Tier 0.

 

[Confluctor]

Source your scans for comic threads.

 

[Xearsay]

There’s really no proof that God in the context of that interview was in reference to a specific being.

And while yes Morrison did equate the Overvoid with The Source in that interview, it’s never actually backed up via any comics. They’re even distinguished in the official Multiversity map so I don’t know why we would care about what the WIP map says.

Also the Spectre never says the Presence is connected to the Overvoid in that scan. The Spectre after talking about how he’s been many different beings in the past says that beyond all of that he’s connected to the Oversoul itself or The Divine Presence, not the Overvoid. Also since you’re using author statements, Dematteis has stated that he doesn’t know what the Overvoid is.

Lastly, Chronicler ripping into the Multiverse from the Overvoid only proves the Chronicler came from the Overvoid. I really don’t understand how this could be used to support The Source and the Overvoid being the same.

 

[Swerzye29038]

Where are you getting tier 0 from?

 

[Hellsing]

So like. Where is your proof of these things being avatars of the Writer.

Because this entire thread just seems to be "The Source = The Presence = The Overvoid". Which is already accepted but won't make them Tier 0. In fact DC is only Tier 0 through the Writer being a clearly separate and far stronger being than the Overvoid. So even if you truly proved that they're all the same being, you'd likely lose Tier 0.

So like. Where is your proof of these things being avatars of the Writer.

Because this entire thread just seems to be "The Source = The Presence = The Overvoid". Which is already accepted but won't make them Tier 0. In fact DC is only Tier 0 through the Writer being a clearly separate and far stronger being than the Overvoid. So even if you truly proved that they're all the same being, you'd likely lose Tier 0.
There’s really no proof that God in the context of that interview was in reference to a specific being.

And while yes Morrison did equate the Overvoid with The Source in that interview, it’s never actually backed up via any comics. They’re even distinguished in the official Multiversity map so I don’t know why we would care about what the WIP map says.

Also the Spectre never says the Presence is connected to the Overvoid in that scan. The Spectre after talking about how he’s been many different beings in the past says that beyond all of that he’s connected to the Oversoul itself or The Divine Presence, not the Overvoid. Also since you’re using author statements, Dematteis has stated that he doesn’t know what the Overvoid is.

Lastly, Chronicler ripping into the Multiverse from the Overvoid only proves the Chronicler came from the Overvoid. I really don’t understand how this could be used to support The Source and the Overvoid being th

About the chronicler thing
Chronicler refers to the overvoid as the source, which means that the source=overvoid
In Dark Nights: Death Metal Rise of the New God it’s stated

“The Gods believe in the Source, and so the Source exists…”

This means the Source and Overvoid, AKA God of the Omniverse function in the same way as the Presence👁👁

Therefore Overvoid = The Source = The Presence = The Writer = God

it’s been confirmed by Scott Snyder himself, Presence=Source

I asked Tyler from the Imaginary Axis and the Imaginary Segment (the guy who interviewed Scott Snyder) what he thought of the “Presence = the Source”, this is what he had to say:

They’re the same

The Presence is the form the Source takes to interact with the Omniverse

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You're not answering my question.

Neither the Source, the Overvoid or the Presence are Tier 0, and none of them correspond to the Writer. Actually, the Overvoid is explicitly separated from the Writer. This does not prove anything regarding these entities being Tier 0.

 

[Hellsing]

You're not answering my question.

Neither the Source, the Overvoid or the Presence are Tier 0, and none of them correspond to the Writer. Actually, the Overvoid is explicitly separated from the Overvoid. This does not prove anything regarding these entities being Tier 0.

bro idk

 

[MichaelJZero]

I realize a lot of users dislike me, like a lot, but you should listen to what I have to say on the religious topics and parallels. I have over 20 years of dedicated study on world religions. I've been trying to show people for years that Morrison told us that the Overvoid is the Keter of the Kabbalah. This is an interview with Morrison confirming these Superman Beyond concepts are based on the Kabbalah.

I'm going to explain the entire point of the Superman Beyond because literally nobody on CV or Quora even cares. The religious intolerance level is infinite, maybe I can get through here more.

So for those unaware, the Kabbalistic Keter/Ayin is the same as the Unmanifest Field from M-Theory and a unique religious viewpoint called Voidism.

Based on M-Theory, we know this is Monitor related from his Final Crisis series because he references that his experience in Katmandu ( a personal experience he had which gave him all these ideas for Hypertime stuff ) is that there is a setup and tiering system for existence. He says the Comic and fictions are in Plane Time. We are in Cube time above all fictional spaces, going as far as showing us that no fictional thing can bypass the "fictive membrane" except data and ideas. And that Hypertime is beyond us and overseen by beings he believed he saw in his drug trip and religious experience that was experienced in India.

He even references this in a video series too.



And we are told that the concept of Hypertime includes Fictional Plane and "real" Plane.



Now, this is really really important because again, Morrison studied M-Theory, Kabbalism, and The Maharishi. Specifically, the Maharish most of them. In this link below, the guy that Morrison studied, the go to go for unmanifest field talks before his passing some years ago, was the worlds foremost authority on the subject and he has preached, for neigh 70 years, that the Unified Umanifest Field is where all Creator Gods came from. This is the same viewpoint in Brahma in Hinduism, and the same viewpoint in Kabbalism with the Ayin/Keter being the field that spawned the Ein Sof.




This is important, because the Ayin/Keter of the Kabbalah has literally nothing to do with the Ein Sof, or the Creator God. But for the last 14 years or so since Final Crisis came out and the Overvoid was first mentioned, people started thinking Grant believes the term True God has something to do with the Presence Yahweh.

It does not. Yahweh is not the Ayin of the Kabbalah. Yahweh is not the Unified Field of M-Theory. Yahweh is not the Unmanifest Field of the Kabbalah and Voidism as preached by Maharishi that Grant studied and idolized for decades of his life (as I do as well)

The Creator God came from the Ayin in Kabbalism and Grant studied this religious view for decades. He knows this. Kabbalists do not believe that the Creator God is the Ayin or the Keter. They simply do not and I am hostile on this Overvoid issue because of the religious intolerance that is often posted in counter replies to me regarding it. My arguing has nothing to do with the comic characters, it is entirely a massive group of people misleading and assuming the Kabbalah says the that the great nothing is the Creator God and guys and gals and all between and beyond...the Keter is where the Ein Sof comes from.

Here is a great little snip of an article of an actual Kabbalah expert and practicing studier of that religious viewpoint explaining that the Keter and the Ayin has literally zero to do with the Ein Sof, or any Creator God.

This image, where Grant said I think of the page as God, was misunderstood by nearly every debater until I came around and started showing people that the Kabbalah, Mtheory, and Voidism, all 3 things that the Overvoid is based on entirely and stated to be based on, have nothing to do with Yahweh, or the Source.

If you believe that Jack Kirby believed that the Source was Yahweh, you are soreeeeeeelyyyyyy mistaken. Kirby was a Kabbalist and Kabbalists do not believe the Ein Sof is the Judaism Yahweh, father of Jesus, or the Chrisitian God Yahweh. This is NOT the Ein Sof. Here is a VERY OLD interview from Grant explaining that Kirby based his Source on Kabbalism. Im sorry this is blurry, I cannot find the original scan because the original was a scan from a physical paper interview.

Ok...so...if I didn't lose you at this point and if you aren't already trying to debunk ancient religious views that have objective factual data belief plot points....please don't try...just don't....please....then you should know that the plot point of Story and Nonstory is one of the defining Voidism traits of belief to the Maharishi, who talks about the power of Story being the defining overarching everything factor in Voidism.

He says story is everything, the totality of all things that are things, even nonexistence is a thing. He says so in those videos series that are on Youtube, go watch them, they are awesome. Grant imparted all of the biggest aspects of Maharishi's teachings into the story of Superman Beyond that we read in 2008.

This guy is what wrapped over the entire Flaw of Existence.

The Flaw is sealed with Divine Metals. A reactionary something that was caused by the Overvoid's interaction with existence and the Overvoid simply is naive and does not understand cause and effect. Remember it thought it was alone, and it sends Mandrakk (Dax) out to investigate Stuff, Story, and Duality and then report back.

Overvoid's interaction with the Flaw of Existence spawns the Cosmic Armor, and it begins to infect the Overvoid with questions and narratives, legend takes root and Story like a contagion spreads unchecked. The comic always referenced the CAS as the embodiment of Story itself. It also says Story infected the Overvoid at the top of that same page.

The Armor is how the Overvoid see's the entire Story of the Flaw of Existence. It is personified to the Overvoid as a Superman Armor because Overvoid considers Superman as the ultimate hero to keep Overvoid safe from further harm.

The concept of Story itself is the main plot point in the Maharishi teachings of Voidism, it is why everything is the way it is. And all stories, even the unmanifest, are important to us that define us as humans. And Grant imparts this central teaching into his comic for us to enjoy.

I've been trying to educate people on this, but I cannot for the life of me get anyone to read anything I post, or watch a single link, or just have a civil discussion without calling me a liar or twisting the words of content creators.

Kabbalah - Ayin/Keter = the Overvoid, it is a no thing. It is where God came from. The ein sof is the SOURCE as in the one we see manifest a Hand, this is not the Monitor Mind.

Voidism (Maharishi) = Unmanifest Field is where creator Gods came from, Jesus, Yahweh, Brahma, whatever god you believe in created things. It is not God. THe field is not God. God came from the field. Everyone keeps claiming opposite and just because Scott Snyder and James Tynion didn't study this doesn't mean all the DC authors also didn't or changed it.

Mtheory - Unified Field contains all, it is where and why all things exist and sprout from, it spawns stuff. All stuff. Data, concepts, the summation and totality of Existence.

All three say the same thing and all three are what Morrison said the Superman Beyond notions are entirely based upon. This is not at all arguable and there is no debunking the author on his own content. You can provide your opinions, you cannot change what the author wrote their own content in regards to.

Other authors changed this notion, removed the meta, and consider the Ein Sof and the even lower Yahweh on the Sepherots of the Kabbalah as all the same thing and that literally is religiously intolerant. It is equivalent of just rewriting the Bible to whatever you want to win an argument and then to tell anyone else copy and pasting statements from the Kabbalah itself are just lying.

That is my plight, and that has been my plight for years. When others say something is beyond the Overvoid in Final Crisis or the Multiversity, check your sources, because they don't know anything about the Kabbalah or Mtheory. Grant says the Overvoid is the top. By definition, by literally it's definition, the Keter and the Unified and the Unmanifest Field contain all. There is no container for that which contains all.

The Darkness doesn't contain the Overvoid. The Overvoid contains the Dark and the Light. To say otherwise is intolerant of what Grant imparted from Kabbalism, Voidism, and Mtheory.

Joshua Williamson and Scott Snyder changing this, is not relevant to the continuity and era of Final Crisis being a different way. That is not a rewrite, that is not a retcon. There is no such thing as retconning someone elses authored works and removing their intent and descriptions of original pieces and characters. New authors do new things and they should be allowed to do so freely, but not to say they unmade the other authors works entirely.

I promise you that Mr. Snyder and Tynion will be the first to tell you to jump in a lake if you asked them if they tried to delete Grants original works and just edit it out entirely with a smile. Aint no author okay with that.

This was posted just recently by Grant. The Overvoid is the top. Grant worked with the writers of Doom Patrol and knows all about the Milk Wars series, The Eonymous > Overvoid is an intolerant argument. There is nothing beyond the final container by definition. Overvoid is the top.

This also came out just recently. Mandrakk is from the Overvoid, the corruption of the Keter.

So again...Grant here states that the entire DCU is a paperverse in Plane Time.

We in the real world above it are Cube Time.

Hypertime is overseen by the Monitors of Nil beyond Cube Time as religious references to the whims of the Keter of the Kabbalah.

And Mandrakk is the corruption of the Keter ripping off a piece of itself and making it a probe and investigator for the entire summation of all within.

Again...The Flaw...The Flaw here is everything the Overvoid is not. Everything. Not what you prefer it to be. Everything in the Overvoid, the Dark, the Light, every nonexistent concept, all energy, all stuff. All the Is. Just as the Overvoid says. Just as Grant says repeatedly. "The war between Is and Isnt, between Story and Blank Page.

The War is between Mandrakk and The Cosmic Armor, with Mandrakk being a part of the Overvoid. The Slip Cover confirms.

And the original interview

So...there it is. Again. Every piece of data you need to understand the relationship of the Overvoid to everything else.

Overvoid = the Keter, the Unified Field

The Ein Sof to us in reality is not in Plane Time, it is in Cube Time. Where all our deism is outside of fiction.

Fiction is in Plane Time.

The Ein Sof of the Plane Time fiction is the Source, this guy.

This guy, the Presence, is an emanation of the creator god, the Ein Sof. Yahweh is another sephirot sphere on the Kabbalal and not the Ein Sof. You don't know this, because I am one of maybe 2 people in comic debating history who has studied actual real world religions for just about 2 decades.

This is not the Source. Even Lucifer himself knew this.

Opinions and arguments are great, and I support them. What I will not and do not support is when those who are not educated even slightly on Kabbalah concepts and Voidism or Mtheory tell me and others that the Keter = Yahweh.

Sorry but no. Grant is on video telling us that the entire context of the Overvoid arc in Superman Beyond is exterior fictional Plane Time and also our plane of Cube time. You missed the entire point of the Superman Beyond arc.

Infinite downplay. The context of the Superman Beyond arc is literally the Keter of the Kabbalah that contains the real world and fictional planes interacting with all stories and being infected it.

The equivalent omggggg context is that this story is about "real god" finding out comics exist on this planet called earth and sending an investigator down into Plane time to map it. To...LITERALLY...MAP...IT

Not one iota of opinion in this entire post I made. 100% copy and pastes of the author explaining this. Or, the people who wrote and said things that this author based his entire cosmology on.

If you have questions, please ask. And don't call me a liar. There are no lies here. This is education, and I understand that education is hard to accept online as most users on the internet do not take kindly to finding out they were mislead by others, or wrong on this topic...for a very, very long time.

Thanks for reading.

-MJ

 

[Swerzye29038]

Oh boy

 

[Tarang123]

Not one iota of opinion in this entire post I made. 100% copy and pastes of the author explaining this. Or, the people who wrote and said things that this author based his entire cosmology on.

This entire thing is an opinion. Do you know what an opinion is? Honest question btw. And, to add on to that opinion question, do you know what a fact is?

a thing that is known or proved to be true.

That is the definition of a fact. Nothing you have shown even remotely aligns with that definition.

I'm going to explain the entire point of the Superman Beyond because literally nobody on CV or Quora even cares. The religious intolerance level is infinite, maybe I can get through here more.

That isn't relevant. They disagree with your arguments, and you've practically ruined your own reputation on those two platforms. Don't go blaming other people for your own mistakes.



Anyway, just read through your comment, and I still fail to understand what tier you're arguing for. I don't think any of this would grant tier 0 (or any real tier for that matter), assuming that it's accurate in the first place.

 

[Hellsing]

Michael Julius lmao

 

[Deagonx]

I've been trying to show people for years that Morrison told us that the Overvoid is the Keter of the Kabbalah. This is an interview with Morrison confirming these Superman Beyond concepts are based on the Kabbalah.

In your first scan, Grant says Kirby used a lot of Kabbalah. Your second scan is from an interview Grant did in 2004, before Final Crisis was even written.

How does that confirm Superman Beyond was based on Kabbalah?

As a matter of fact, you posted an interview statement where he says it's based on Buddhism.

Morrison studied M-Theory, Kabbalism, and The Maharishi. Specifically, the Maharish most of them

Where did Morrison say he studied the Maharishi?

and the same viewpoint in Kabbalism with the Ayin/Keter being the field that spawned the Ein Sof.

No school of thought in Kabbalism dictates that Ayin spawned Ein Sof.

This is important, because the Ayin/Keter of the Kabbalah has literally nothing to do with the Ein Sof, or the Creator God.

This is embarrassingly wrong. Everything in Kabbalah has to do with Ein Sof.

This post is full of a lot of really bad misinformation about Kabbalism, so I will just round up the remaining quotes and respond in full after that.

Kabbalists do not believe that the Creator God is the Ayin or the Keter.

Here is a great little snip of an article of an actual Kabbalah expert and practicing studier of that religious viewpoint explaining that the Keter and the Ayin has literally zero to do with the Ein Sof, or any Creator God.

Kabbalah - Ayin/Keter = the Overvoid, it is a no thing. It is where God came from. The ein sof is the SOURCE as in the one we see manifest a Hand, this is not the Monitor Mind.

Overvoid = the Keter, the Unified Field

This guy, the Presence, is an emanation of the creator god, the Ein Sof. Yahweh is another sephirot sphere on the Kabbalal and not the Ein Sof. You don't know this, because I am one of maybe 2 people in comic debating history who has studied actual real world religions for just about 2 decades.

Wow.

Let me be clear, what you are saying demonstrates a fundamental ignorance of even the most basic concepts of Kabbalah.

Keter/Ayin come from Ein Sof, not the other way around. If at any point you believe something is above Ein Sof, then you have missed the entire point of Kabbalism. Here is an excerpt from "The Essential Kabbalah" by Daniel C Matt, who is one of the pre-eminent scholars on Kabbalah and for authoring the English translation of the Zohar, the foundational text of Kabbalah.

"Ein Sof is the cause of Keter, Keter is caused by Ein Sof."

The idea that "Ayin" has nothing to do with Ein Sof is particularly silly, because Ayin and Ein are the same word.
Here is another excerpt from "The Kabbalistic Theosophy of Habad Hasidism" by Rachel Elior, another pre-eminent scholar on Kabbalah:

Keter/Ayin is, undeniably, a sefirah, an emanation of Ein Sof.

It is astounding that someone would portray themselves as having "studied religions for 2 decades" and go on to argue that Keter/Ayin is not only unrelated to Ein Sof, but is actually above it and produced Ein Sof. Good god.

Oh, and also:

This guy, the Presence, is an emanation of the creator god, the Ein Sof. Yahweh is another sephirot sphere on the Kabbalal and not the Ein Sof

This is also wrong. YHVH is Ein Sof.

The Sefirot represent the manner in which Consciousness (God, YHWH) expresses Itself in Creation

 

[Tarang123]

In your first scan, Grant says Kirby used a lot of Kabbalah. Your second scan is from an interview Grant did in 2004, before Final Crisis was even written.

How does that confirm Superman Beyond was based on Kabbalah?

As a matter of fact, you posted an interview statement where he says it's based on Buddhism.


Where did Morrison say he studied the Maharishi?


No school of thought in Kabbalism dictates that Ayin spawned Ein Sof.




This is embarrassingly wrong. Everything in Kabbalah has to do with Ein Sof.

This post is full of a lot of really bad misinformation about Kabbalism, so I will just round up the remaining quotes and respond in full after that.






Wow.

Let me be clear, what you are saying demonstrates a fundamental ignorance of even the most basic concepts of Kabbalah.

Keter/Ayin come from Ein Sof, not the other way around. If at any point you believe something is above Ein Sof, then you have missed the entire point of Kabbalism. Here is an excerpt from "The Essential Kabbalah" by Daniel C Matt, who is one of the pre-eminent scholars on Kabbalah and for authoring the English translation of the Zohar, the foundational text of Kabbalah.

"Ein Sof is the cause of Keter, Keter is caused by Ein Sof."

The idea that "Ayin" has nothing to do with Ein Sof is particularly silly, because Ayin and Ein are the same word.
Here is another excerpt from "The Kabbalistic Theosophy of Habad Hasidism" by Rachel Elior, another pre-eminent scholar on Kabbalah:

Keter/Ayin is, undeniably, a sefirah, an emanation of Ein Sof.

It is astounding that someone would portray themselves as having "studied religions for 2 decades" and go on to argue that Keter/Ayin is not only unrelated to Ein Sof, but is actually above it and produced Ein Sof. Good god.

Oh, and also:



This is also wrong. YHVH is Ein Sof.

The Sefirot represent the manner in which Consciousness (God, YHWH) expresses Itself in Creation

This is something I also noticed from what I have read and searched up on these religions, but I didn’t bring it up because it would quite frankly derail the thread. The fact of the matter is, it doesn’t get much of a tier, and that’s ignoring the blatant flaws with the logic

 

[Swerzye29038]

Why are we even surprised? These are one of Michaels less crazy ramblings.

 

[Deagonx]

I'm a bit surprised he would focus so dramatically on Kabbalah while remaining uninformed on the most basic concept in Kabbalah.

Like. Keter is a sefirah, an emanation of Ein Sof. The relationship between Ein Sof and the Sephirot is the foundation of Kabbalah. It's like not knowing that Jesus is the son of God in Christianity, or something like that.