"The Nature of Fantasy Nature"

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Our page for Reimu has long stated that she can "float away from Reality". Though this is based on an ancient translation. The most commonly accepted translations now seem to be far less specific.

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"A secret technique which is extreme in many ways. With Reimu's ability to float, she floats away from all sorts of things and cannot to be attacked."

Though other translations seem to hint that the description is closer to "she floats away from everything. Her ability is expanded upon in other statements.

"If it wasn't just for play (with time limit), no one could beat her using any method."

To note, this concern a verse where people killing non-corporeal ghosts and easily attaining other universes is downright common.

Clearly Fantasy Nature isn't a simple intangibility ability, but to what degree it goes is what I'd like to discuss.

EDIT: Alfredo down there propose an alternate translation, which seems to make more sense than the one the wiki proposes: "Reading the text especially this part Òü»ÒüéÒéèÒü¿ÒüéÒéëÒéåÒéïÒééÒü«ÒüïÒéëÕ«ÖÒü½µÁ«ÒüìþäíµòÁÒü¿Òü¬ÒéïÒÇé, it's more like becoming invincible by floating above all existence.". Just thought I'd bring it up.

 

[Fllflourine]

"Everything" also includes Sakuya's space-time abilities, so to put my two cents, she can at least float away from space-time.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Not sure if outright fly out of space-time, but I really doubt that Sakuya would be able to hit through her FN if it's truly so overpowered in-universe. Though we should limit this to only characters present in IN and before, not any new ones.

 

[ALRF]

Reading the text especially this part Òü»ÒüéÒéèÒü¿ÒüéÒéëÒéåÒéïÒééÒü«ÒüïÒéëÕ«ÖÒü½µÁ«ÒüìþäíµòÁÒü¿Òü¬ÒéïÒÇé, it's more like becoming invincible by floating above all existence.

I don't know if that can help with anything in trying to determine the degree this ability is.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Shit. Not outright floating away from reality but pretty close to it.

 

[Promestein]

I don't really think it can be quantified much better than we have now; just list it as "can float away from existence to avoid attacks" or something? Given the scope and range of Sakuya's abilities, the most we could get it is functioning on a universal scale, eg. needing universal-multi-universal range to affect her. Even then, a lot of this seems like it could be taken as hyperbole.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well, the problem is that multi-universe range is extremely common through the series. People come and go between various realms all the times, with Sakuya outright having access to parallel universes. Simple multi-universal range rarely gives access to outside the universe as well.

Though f we took the "outside of existence" statement to be entirely literal, we would end up with vastly exaggerated range so I think toning it down to somewhat universal range would be good yes.

 

[Fllflourine]

You can't get to Reimu simply by having access to other universes. It's not really range, seeing as Reimu is floating out of existence/reality/space-time/w.e, but the point of Fantasy Nature is that she's outside the universe and that noone is able to hit her in that state in the Verse.

 

[Hazerddex]

Well, the problem is that multi-universe range is extremely common through the series. People come and go between various realms all the times, with Sakuya outright having access to parallel universes. Simple multi-universal range rarely gives access to outside the universe as well.
Though f we took the "outside of existence" statement to be entirely literal, we would end up with vastly exaggerated range so I think toning it down to somewhat universal range would be good yes.

Most touhou powers are taken extremely literal

Sunny milks ability to manipulate light even extends to her power to bend the light to her eyes and see around objects she could not normally see from where she currently stands.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I mean, Reimu could "just" be outside the universe, not outside the entire setting. Considering that Touhou has constantly shown to be following String Theory, "outside of existence" would mean vastly more than getting out of a single universe. But that requires too much speculation.

 

[Hazerddex]

I mean, Reimu could "just" be outside the universe, not outside the entire setting. Considering that Touhou has constantly shown to be following String Theory, "outside of existence" would mean vastly more than getting out of a single universe. But that requires too much speculation.

no she can use this power when shes not in Gensyoku

heavens not in the same Dimension/world as gensoyku but when fighting tenshi she could still use it there

for that matter


heaven, Higan, Hell, nether world, Makai, outsider world,Lunar Captial, dream world, Gensyokou are all in diffrent dimensions


with how existances in touhou mean literally reimu becomes nothiness no long existing.


you can't hurt a non entity. how do you damage nothiness?

youkais become non existant when they are no longer beleived in basiclly this is there True death

this is diffrent as with gods can vanish if they don't have enough faith but can still affect the world. but tehy still exist and can be comunicated with by shrine maidens even without a body.

(please note im just talking in terms of touhouverse not all series gods)

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yeah, I know, but it doesn't change much. She can just float outside of her current reality. If she could use it even when she is outside of reality (A place between those "Otherworlds" so to speak), now it would be grounds for an upgrade. But not currently. All we know is that people who can access multiple Otherworlds can't reach her in this state.

 

[Hazerddex]

Yeah, I know, but it doesn't change much. She can just float outside of her current reality. If she could use it even when she is outside of reality (A place between those "Otherworlds" so to speak), now it would be grounds for an upgrade. But not currently. All we know is that people who can access multiple Otherworlds can't reach her in this state.

the dream world is a space between worlds in the touhouverse im not sure if thats what you mean


but the dream world is detatched from reality (it is called the dream world for a reason) and dormy sweet panics when she sees reimu broke through with her physical body.


in touhou 15 she uses it to reach the lunar capital

also touhou SWR and HM is after IN she still has Fantasy nature so i don't think its just limited to characters in IN


there also the new touhou 16 to consider

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

The Dream World is still another "Otherworld". It's not outside of space-time per say, just another world that happens to link two other worlds.

FN has never been used story-wise. It certainly wasn't used in LoLK, as anyone could reach the Dream World.

Well, the statement regarding Reimu being untouchable by anyone only applies to IN, as it is where it was made.

Lemme show you a diagram of what I mean:




The top one is what would happen if we really admitted the statement of Reimu going outside all of reality seriously. This would require her to not only float away from her current world (which is 4D), but outright outside of the 11D setting. Which is of course wanking.

The second shows what we currently accept. Reimu simply exists in the "void" between universe while using FN. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Just assume that Reimu can float to outside of the universe and remain in a void where she can't be hit. Simplest interpretation, really.

 

[Hazerddex]

im not sure if this helps at all but in Grimore of Marisa she mentions

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Reimu becomes completely impossible to touch. She's in an opaque invisible man state.

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This seems like Reimu's ultimate mysteries, but it looks like she just closes her eyes; then, the danmaku aims itself and fires towards the enemy automatically.

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By the way, at the beginning this wasn't a spell card at all, but I changed this into play by giving it the name of a spell card. Otherwise, there's no chance to win.

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This truly is a spell card that can be used only by Reimu's innate power. Thus, I named this tensei (lit. innate from birth) as well.


anyone here read japanese verify if this translation is worded correcty?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It wouldn't change much. Marisa's description basically just says that it's intangibility and that it's impossible to win if she spams it. None of which really mentions anything about her going outside of reality.

 

[Hazerddex]

It wouldn't change much. Marisa's description basically just says that it's intangibility and that it's impossible to win if she spams it. None of which really mentions anything about her going outside of reality.

this is from Marisa perspective mind you so marisa could just be describing what she sees and not whats atcually happening.

theres also the fact that Yukari of all things seems unable to hit her in gameplay of IN

but that could just be story gameplay segragation.

speaking of yukari this is a bit off topic but reimu seems to have has same power as Yukari now

as she is seen making and using a gap similar to yukari to find yukari in FS ch 51

and in HSoFS the extra stage boss mentions she used the bountry between seasons.

but im pritty sure this power is not related to her FN

Just assume that Reimu can float to outside of the universe and remain in a void where she can't be hit. Simplest interpretation, really.

agreed


as much as i like the touhou series my biggest gripe about the series is how open ended the powers are although due to more recent games and Novels etc, it seems safe to asusme that the most power do exactly what it says it does.

however it gets complicated with some character like how ZUN said Reimu resolved the incident with remilia

i find it hard to beleive that remilia can lose a fight so easily with a power like manipulation of fate.

but if we assume at this point in time Marisa did not ristric Reimus Fantasy Nature to a spell card. it sort of makes sense

 

[ALRF]

>Õ«îÚ£èÕñóÒü½ÞºªÒéîÒü¬ÒüÅÒü¬Òéï

>Reimu becomes completely impossible to touch

Nothing like that, It has to do with Reimu experiecing perfection or completeness.

Other translations ignored some kanji or words but they don't affect her power at all.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

That's just her spatial manipulation. Reimu has been doing portals for years. It's certainly not as powerful as Yukari's.

 

[Hazerddex]

That's just her spatial manipulation. Reimu has been doing portals for years. It's certainly not as powerful as Yukari's.

true but its nothing to sniff at if she can use it on concepts like seasons nows.

 

[Andykhang]

For now, escaping to the void seem like the best bet anyway (I'm was going to said that this doesn't explain her power to read the record of destiny thing, but then realize that this is another application of "floating with the flow"), though this create another problem: the void between universe is still, technically, the "border" between world, something Yukari could potentially manipulate. It's fine if you just assumed that Yukari can't control that, but if she can, and that also doesn't work on Reimu...

Maybe I'm just over-speculate, like usual.

 

[Promestein]

Just assume that Reimu can float to outside of the universe and remain in a void where she can't be hit. Simplest interpretation, really.

Yeah this is the best interpretation.

 

[ALRF]

Agree, Matthew interpretation of Reimu FN is the best one

 

[Fllflourine]

I agree, it's simple, to the point and doesn't have to be a wall of speculah.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'm glad everyone likes my version. <3

 

[ALRF]

For a Reisen, you weren't useless <3

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Reisen is never useless. How dare you say that.


But in all seriousness this is what triggers me when someone says "Oh derp it's just intangibility floating"

 

[Hazerddex]

For a Reisen, you weren't useless <3

you mean the moon rabbit whos power is to manipulate waves (ncluding brain waves, sound waves, and light waves, and movment. as she deminstrated when chasing the three fairies of light.)

 

[Magi_Hussie]

Reimu's ability involves doing this: http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Self-Existence_Manipulation

 

[Magi_Hussie]

Reimu is capable of using Meta Teleportation like Yukari to escape reality itself & she removed her physical existence to become intangible.