The MCU Spiderman feats are not strongly supported.

[DemiserofD]

I don't believe he is correctly placed at even small building level.

First feat; slightly changing the course of a plane. This is not a major feat, a normal guy with a rope could do that. Control surfaces are designed to move easily, even when hydraulics have failed in an emergency.

Second feat; holding a ferry together. First off, he does not do that; he uses dozens of pieces of webbing to *temporarily* hold the ferry together. Once they fail, his further efforts are functionally useless until Iron Man shows up to shove it back together. At best, he slows it from further falling apart. However, that's not something we can base a feat on, as the vast majority of the force is being held by whatever remained of the bottom of the ferry, which had to exist, or the ferry would have fallen apart.

Hypersonic Reflexes; this is also iffy, because of his iconic spider sense. Sensing danger ahead of time easily lowers a reflex check by orders of magnitude.

The Giant-Man feat doesn't really tell us anything, because of how inconsistently the Pym Particle transformations are treated. Sometimes changed things are weightless, other times they can hit with full force. Regardless, using them as any sort of standard is nonsensical.

All of them should be removed.

 

[Camilopezo]

Then, 9-B.

 

[Qawsedf234]

To my knowledge Spider-Man's AP comes from scaling to Captain America, who has a calced 9-A durability feat and has like; Durability to AP scaling.

So the plane has nothing to do with it afaik.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Actually I was wrong about Cap. 9-A comes from this calc

 

[Jinsye]

Parker also survived getting almost ripped apart by that ferry he was holding together.

btw this Peter barely uses spider-sense lol

 

[Qawsedf234]

MCU Spider-Man has multiple anti-feats suggesting that either his spider-sense sucks or that he has no idea how to properly interpret what's being sensed.

 

[DemiserofD]

That calc is unfortunately nonsensical. Firstly, we know nothing about the strength or degree of stretch in his webbing. It's perfectly possible the webbing is simply stretching as the ferry continues to move. Especially given that other pieces of webbing holding significantly less were already shown to have snapped.

Secondly, the VAST majority of the weight is being supported by the unsevered hull of the ferry beneath him. Most of a ship's strength is in the hull. But we have no idea how much of the hull remains, so it's impossible to accurately calculate how much weight he's actually holding.

IE the feat is unusable and irrelevant.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The thing is, that even if the site dismisses the ship calc he would still scale to Captain America's 9-A durability thing. So unless you dismiss that as an outlier his tier wouldn't really change.

 

[DemiserofD]

Cap's 9-A durability is also wrong. It's based on the calculation that an uppercut from Quicksilver has enough energy to destroy a building.

Only problem; it's an UPPERCUT. Meaning it sends force UP.

Observe: https://youtu.be/vvMJs3GjTls?t=30

Cap flies slightly upwards and then immediately downwards, moving maybe two *feet. He does not collide with anything.

Assuming that calculation were correct, and the energy amounts were correct, then Cap would have flown either into the wall, or approximately 4000 meters.

Given that neither of these things happen, we can safely assume that the calc is wrong, and Cap is not 9-A.

 

[Qawsedf234]

You make a point. You can also throw in the times that Cap gets shot or stabbed. Might want to ask a mod to comment.

 

[Jackythejack]

''watch the entire MCU tiering just collapse''

 

[Camilopezo]

The thing is, that even if the site dismisses the ship calc he would still scale to Captain America's 9-A durability thing. So unless you dismiss that as an outlier his tier wouldn't really change.

The only reason Steve was promoted is because he was supposedly capable of harming Spiderman.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The only injury I remember him giving Spider-Man was a black eye, but that due too the shield to my memory.

 

[Camilopezo]

The only injury I remember him giving Spider-Man was a black eye, but that due too the shield to my memory.

Quoting.

"At least Small Building level (Defeated Spider-Ma, and could have easily defeated him according to Iron Ma."

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah. But the shield would still factor into the statement.

 

[Therefir]

> Assuming that calculation were correct, and the energy amounts were correct, then Cap would have flown either into the wall, or approximately 4000 meters.

90% of the calculations and feats are wrong with this logic, in works of fiction things like this are simply ignored, and we're not going to discard these feats simply because they don't follow the law of physics.

 

[DemiserofD]

The method used is based off of frames and distance moved, which is much easier to get wrong with movie making than physical force.

And they get it right in other parts of the same movie. When thor hits a robot, it flies away. When Quicksilver hits Cap, he doesn't substantially move.

Ergo they did not intend for Quicksilver's punch to have the energy of a one-ton bomb.

 

[Therefir]

It's not hard to know how many frames the movie is running at, and it's pretty easy to calculate the distance.

I don't think we know their true intentions, but they are certainly ignoring some laws of physics, Quicksilver can easily destroy robots with his punches and yet he can't send Cap flying hundreds of meters away.

 

[Jackythejack]

I mean from a movie making standpoint it'd just be really annoying if we had Cap just fly hundreds of meters back and had to wait for him to get back

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

Not sure about the calcs here but Spider-Man should be much stronger than Captain America. He casually overpowers Sam + Bucky, who is comparable to Captain America. He really only lost due to skill and Captain outplaying him by using his webs against him.

Tony talking about Captain America being easily able to beat Peter seems to imply an overall analysis and not just a pure slugfest. Spider-Man can catch Cull Obsidian's full force axe swing that was previously tearing apart BE Iron Man and reverses a car thrown at him.

That and him bodying Thanos in the Iron-Spider suit. Really, only possibly 8-A for that? Based on the previous Cull argument he should at least be equal to BE in the suit. Iron-Man only scales to Thanos because he drew a drop of blood but I bet if Peter had the opportunity to use his momentum better with something like a roundhouse that he could do the same.

I think he's actually due for an upgrade if anything, consistently shown as vastly physically superior to literally anyone he has fought or helped out.

 

[Cropfist]

While Iron Spider should likely be higher, scaling him to Thanos is a no.

Also, using a rope in a specific position to move a multi-ton object traveling at hundreds of meters per hour does not compare to forcefully moving it with sheer physical strength.

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

If BE scales to Thanos than Iron-Spider should too. Normal suit saved him from a blow that would have destroyed or at least harmed BE Ironman.

Fair, still doesn't change him casually overpowering Cull's axe.

 

[DemiserofD]

The fact that Quicksilver destroys the robots so easily is actually a point against the calc we're talking about. Look at the robots he hits; they go flying apart in pieces when he hits them, or smash into the ground, etc. Cap does not take major damage OR go flying. This is a direct inconsistency within the movie.

Remember, Quicksilver isn't a bad guy. He switches sides more or less the instant he has the opportunity to do so. And despite a massive advantage in speed, and the ability to rip metal apart barehanded, he never kills or even significantly injures, anyone or anything but robots.

His character + differences in fights vs robots compared to vs avengers + errors in Cap's mass in the scene = he's pulling his punches.

---

Look, my only point is that the scene in question has too many inconsistencies to be used as a proper feat. It's using very precise measurements of a SLOW MOTION shot of a speedster to judge physical force, where slow-mo is inherently an unreliable medium, and when speedsters are by nature a violation of most physical constants. It's just like Ant-Man; sometimes he seems to be weightless, sometimes he seems to be heavy, and which is which is based heavily on which works for the scene in question, so you can't reliably use either one for a feat. ESPECIALLY one based on a SINGLE punch.

If you want a good indicator of Cap's strength, we should look at the Corvus Glaive fight. THAT scene is much longer, results in cap's near-defeat, but was very close. Cap should scale more or less to his power level.

 

[Lightbuster30]

The fact that Quicksilver destroys the robots so easily is actually a point against the calc we're talking about. Look at the robots he hits; they go flying apart in pieces when he hits them, or smash into the ground, etc. Cap does not take major damage OR go flying. This is a direct inconsistency within the movie.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe the reason Cap can tank hit's from Quicksilver while the Ultron Sentries can't is because; oh I don't know, Cap is stronger than them? Nothing special or anything, just a thought.

 

[DemiserofD]

That's exactly my point. He destroys the sentries AND they go flying. Meaning there is precedent for the enemies he hits to go flying, so it's not a consistent convention through the movie that he doesn't send his targets properly flying.

Therefore, the fact that he neither destroys cap OR sends him flying means he wasn't hitting cap as hard.

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

I disagree @DemiserofD. On a general note and within our real world, you would be absolutely right but this is a fictitious movie with fictional characters.

It's like me arguing for Captain America to only be "Peak Human" movement speed because: "It doesn't matter how strong or how much muscle you have, humans have a biomechanical movement as to how fast they can move so Captain must not be moving that fast."

At the end of the day there exist visual inconsitencies (especially with dozens of movies choreographed by different people with different directors) and general physics denying stunts. I am against your logic entirely.

 

[DemiserofD]

You realize that doesn't make any sense, then?

You can't simultaneously base the character's power level on the physics of a SINGLE punch, while simultaneously saying that physics is inconsistent and we should ignore said inconsistencies.

If it's inconsistent, then we should consider the average, not the outliers, ESPECIALLY when those outliers are not even consistent in their own scenes!

 

[The_Impress]

Why are the physics inconsistent here exactly? Cap's still tanking a punch (it's not an uppercut, more like a suckerpunch btw), and him not moving can be assumed as a violation of conservation of energy, which is what our AP system is based on anyways.

If you look at it that way, everyone is 11-C in this wiki because our entire ranking system is based on how BS movie physics are

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

@DemisreofD feel free to revise our entire ranking and rating system then, I am sure there are people more knowledgable than me who can explain it in a way you would understand.

 

[DemiserofD]

@zark2099 For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

IE, if you punch something really hard, it will move really far, really fast.

For example, when Hulk punches Thor in Avengers 1, Thor is thrown out of frame.

People are trying to argue that Quicksilver's punch has the destructive force to level a building, but when it hits Captain America - who weighs not much more than the average human - he does NOT go flying.

IF the punch did, in fact, have as much energy as is claimed, then the fact he doesn't go flying violates the conservation of energy. Where does the energy go? Is Cap's face made of vibranium?

Straight up: We don't know enough about how super speed works to accurately say ANYTHING about that punch. It's wildly inconsistant, just like Ant-Man's transformations, so using a SINGLE feat to assess someone's TOTAL durability just doesn't make any sense.

Especially when it doesn't line up to anything else we see elsewhere in all the movies. He can't even tank small-arms fire without his suit, for pete's sake, people are trying to say he's able to facetank a one-ton bomb.

 

[AguilaR101]

Conservation of energy doesn't exist in fiction.

 

[DemiserofD]

Look, whatever. It doesn't make any sense, but not any less sense than anything else I've seen as I've looked around more.

If you wanna give a man who's concerned about bullets building-level durability, go ahead. It makes the site useless for anyone who wants to use it for anything but arguing, but what the heck.

I'm out. Peace.

 

[Crimson_Azoth]

just fyi being bulletproof is apparently multi-city block level so a building level character wouldn't be bulletproof

 

[Qawsedf234]

The bullet proof calc isn't that really. It uses the speed of the fastest small arms bullet and the mass of the largest one. Its just the theoretical durability needed to stop the theoretical strongest bullet that doesn't actual exist.

The gun fired at Captain America that went through him in WS uses a .45 ACP round, which brings the needed bullet proof durability down by multiple tiers.

 

[The_Impress]

Did you read the AP page? Conservation of Energy isn't being accounted for in any fiction. If it would've been then 90% of other verses (DBZ, OPM etc., etc.,) are completely broken for creating energy out of nothing.

Hell do you know that if a person is in space he'd explode due to lack of pressure? Or that having less density means you'd float away, and going subatomic will make you collapse on yourself and form a black hole? It's science fiction, so trying to make sense of it logically is pointless until we ignore a few physics rules.

Also, MCU bullets aren't normal bullets. Most fiction bullets are able to do more than regular bullets, and pressure is still a thing to account for

 

[Qawsedf234]

Using the same parameters as the calc.

• .45 ACP energy (.230 grain FMJ Winchester) = 483 joules

• Diameter = 1.15 CM

• SA = ¤Ç(1.15/2)^2 = ¤Ç(0.575)^2 = ¤Ç0.330625 = 1.0386 cm^2 or 0.0001038 m^2

• Average Male Human SA = 1.9 m^2

• Energy needed to be bullet proof = 483 * (1.9/0.0001038) = 8,841,040.46243 joules

• Quicksilver's punch = 65,550,106 joules to 190,856,763 joules

So if the energy conversion was correct then the bullet should've bounced off Cap to no damage, but instead it just shot right through him.

 

[Therefir]

@DemiserofD Going by your logic, Quicksilver's punch was actually 10-B/10-A because it didn't move Cap at all, and Hulk sending Thor out of the frame is not consistent either, since using only his own feats, he would be able to send Thor into outer space with a single blow, I hope you don't come to tell me that in all the fights they had Hulk was holding back like with Quicksilver.

@Qawsedf234 Why are you trying to argue? We already know how terribly inconsistent are bullets in fiction.

 

[Qawsedf234]

@Qawsedf234 Why are you trying to argue? We already know how terribly inconsistent are bullets in fiction.

That the previous assertion that you need to have CB durability to be bullet proof is incorrect in this case.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So in general the bullet stuff is more of a thought experiment than anything else?

 

[Therefir]

@Qawsedf234 Yeah I suppose so, also sorry for deleting my comment, I thought I'd made a mistake.

The method is wrong anyway, it makes Human level punches Wall level.

Cross-sectional area of a fist = 0.0032258 m^3

100*(1.9/0.0032258) = 58900.12 Joules