The Great Sisyphean Quest to Downgrade God of War ⌈Part 8⌋

[Mr. Bambu]

Can we please stop with this bullshit? Georr you already agreed of removing AE2 to Kratos's God Key so the rest is just pointless heated parts of the arguing that don't need to be continue.

And Fuji, really? I can get that a lot of things had stupid justification, but this?

Why are you trying to antagonize here? "OH I downgraded a verse and now I'll downgrade yours!" Like come on now
I'll be taking my leave

I do agree, for the record. Neither side ought to be antagonizing the other. I advised Fuji of this, and I do hope it doesn't happen going forward.

I suppose I'll speak on the contents of this thread, since I'm here and can't sleep.

Biological Manipulation [Hades]

He currently has this due to resurrecting a man who was recently cut in half. This is just resurrection - a thing he already has on his profile for this exact reason - and the fact that his two halves are made whole again can be attributed to the innate healing properties of resurrection and not some unrelated ability to freely alter one's biology.

Straightforward, agreed.

Resistance to "Everything Else Hades Has" [Kratos' God Key]

In God of War 3, Hades attempts to rip out Kratos' soul. Here's how Kratos' page explains this event:

Soul Manipulation & Soul Absorption, Mind Manipulation & Memory Manipulation, Status Effect Inducement and Statistics Reduction, Curse Manipulation, Probability Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1), including Resistance to everything else Hades has (Souls are constructs of magic, composed of their form, the metaphysical nature of a being, their luck, their mind and their direction. Repeatedly resisted Hades's attempts to rip his soul out with the Claws of Hades, also resisting all of his other abilities as well. Damaging souls can shatter and fragment their memories as a consequence[16])

Typical soul stuff, with the minor issue that this feat doesn't happen "repeatedly"; It happens exactly once in a cutscene with a QTE. That's a minor nitpick, though, because what I'm really interested in is the quote "also resisting all of his other abilities as well". This is odd, because it's looking at Hades using one (1) ability, and concluding that Kratos must resist every ability he has as an extension of that. Hades doesn't try to kill him with fire, or drain his lifeforce, or curse him with an eternal slumber, or anything besides the single ability we see on screen (the soul absorption). He doesn't even try to manipulate Kratos' biology by bringing him back to life. Needless to say, this is a massive leap in logic with 0 factual basis.

Similarly agreed, failing something that actually justifies that bit coming forward, since that's just. Such a bizarre addition.

Abstract Existence [Type 2] [Kratos’ God Key]

Kratos has this because he contained hope inside of himself after the events of God of War 1, but it lay dormant within him until God of War 3 (where the whole “Power of Hope” thing comes into play). That’s it. Kratos has an abstraction inside of himself, so he must also embody that abstraction in a way that makes him immortal, which is never confirmed to be the case. While we do see that hope brought him back from the dead in GoW 3, it’s clear that this lingering traces of hope within him prior to and after that game don’t make him immortal since Thor straight up kills him in Ragnarok. This is also ignoring the issue of how simply having an abstraction inside of you isn’t enough for type 2 AE. If that were the case, everyone in GoW would have AE by virtue of their souls being abstractions.

I would agree, if this is accurate, that this doesn't qualify for Abstract Existence of any type, much less Type 2.

Flames of Olympus Scaling [Power of Hope Kratos]

Currently, Kratos is given access to all the abilities possessed by the Flames of Olympus while he wields the power of hope. This gives him death manipulation, curse negation, and some extra forms of immortality negation, as well as resistance to all of these abilities. The source of this claim is that hope is stronger than the flames. We are not told the specifics of its superiority, just that the flames “pale in comparison” to hope. This just isn’t how hax scaling works; Being described as stronger or greater than something does not mean you gain the abilities of that thing; Kratos is stronger than many gods, but should he get all of their powers? This line of thinking makes no sense regardless of what the comparison is; The black plague pales in comparison to a supernova, but we aren’t giving the sun disease manipulation on that basis.

There’s a secondary problem in that the Flames of Olympus’ most notable trait - killing everything it touches - is also mysteriously absent from the scenes where hope plays a major role. Kratos as a mortal is unphased by hope entering his body, and while Ares did die to Kratos using the power of hope, he still put up a good fight and wasn’t instantly incapacitated by these supposed instant death hax. Kratos in GoW 3 and Zeus’ spirit are also not instantly killed by exposure to hope, nor does humanity die from Kratos releasing hope into the world (they die from all the other shit that’s going on, of course). Hell, Kratos is even brought back to life by hope - The total opposite of killing everything on contact. It’s a truly baffling assumption that a force intended to counteract the darkest parts of our psyche, to give us strength in our time of need, is also somehow a force that instantly kills whatever it touches with no hope of return. What would the core message of GoW 3 be if hope killed whatever it touched? “Hope is found in death”? Is GoW 3 the first pro-suicide game?

Feel like this one is going to need further discussion but from this alone, I agree, sure.

Resistance to Bodily Weaponry [Freya]

…Do I really need to explain this? I feel like this one was just an editing mistake LMAO

Creation [Nidhogg]

Creation (Creates and is the mother of the Lindwyrms[5])

C’mon now.

Yeah.

 

[Deagonx]

Despite my warning, Georre immediately took to using the thread to continue the drama. I've threadbanned him. Please continue the discussion as it pertains to these God of War revisions.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Being a mod doesn't mean that you can warn aggressively in the attitude you want.

I talked to Fuji like this because she talks to me with this attitude. I don't mind this, and if she does, I won't speak with that attitude again (unless she talks to me like that, too), but if you have the authority to warn me, then you have the authority to warn the other party, right?

I told Fuji to not play as hostile as she usually does, before you went on this... warpath, I'll call it.

This is now a formal warning. Stop derailing. This dialogue doesn't advance the thread, it regresses it. I expect this matter to be settled.

 

[Quibster]

I agree with the OP

 

[Tyranno223]

Seems like solid proposals. I agree for what it's worth.

 

[Topaz404]

After some light reading, yeah, ill have to agree as well. Agree x3 for the Creation bit (lol)

 

[KingogKings777]

following

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Late night bump.

 

[Gasper]

Looks fine

 

[Luckyfun]

Seems ok. But my vote doesn't matter so include me if you like to.

 

[Catbowtie]

Hope I'm not overstepping here. Assuming that discussion is appropriate and relating to the topic, can anyone just walk in and talk here?

 

[Gasper]

Hope I'm not overstepping here. Assuming that discussion is appropriate and relating to the topic, can anyone just walk in and talk here?

Yes

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Only threads marked Staff Only have such a broad rule, yeah. Anyone can discuss, just keep it on topic.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Catbowtie]

Typical soul stuff, with the minor issue that this feat doesn't happen "repeatedly"; It happens exactly once in a cutscene with a QTE.

Depending on if getting hit in game is canonical or not, Kratos can be shown to resist Hades' Soul Manipulation more than once. Youtuber Shirrako got hit by Hades and Kratos resisted Hades' second attempt at pulling out his soul. It could be further stated that every time that Hades did that swinging chain attack (For lack of a better description), Kratos would have theoretically resisted the Soul Manipulation had he got hit, but I'm not sure if any of this falls under Game Mechanics Fallacy or not. Basically, "repeatedly" looks to be referring to the instances after the initial Quick Time Event that Kratos has resisted Hades' Soul Manipulation, assuming that it is canonical that Kratos does get hit by Hades' chains.


I agree with everything else in the original message though.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Depending on if getting hit in game is canonical or not, Kratos can be shown to resist Hades' Soul Manipulation more than once. Youtuber Shirrako got hit by Hades and Kratos resisted Hades' second attempt at pulling out his soul. It could be further stated that every time that Hades did that swinging chain attack (For lack of a better description), Kratos would have theoretically resisted the Soul Manipulation had he got hit, but I'm not sure if any of this falls under Game Mechanics Fallacy or not. Basically, "repeatedly" looks to be referring to the instances after the initial Quick Time Event that Kratos has resisted Hades' Soul Manipulation, assuming that it is canonical that Kratos does get hit by Hades' chains.


I agree with everything else in the original message though.

Was not aware the QTE could trigger mid-fight, that's pretty cool. I stand corrected on that point (though I'll need to check something else related to that scene after work), and I'll edit the OP accordingly.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Was not aware the QTE could trigger mid-fight, that's pretty cool. I stand corrected on that point (though I'll need to check something else related to that scene after work), and I'll edit the OP accordingly.

Yeah, as I though, Hades' soul rip will kill Kratos if he's unable to pull his soul back in. This is still a resistance, but it has a notable caveat. If someone is strong enough to overpower his attempts to pull his soul back in, he'll die, so I think his resistance could be rewritten to represent that:

Soul Manipulation & Soul Absorption, Mind Manipulation & Memory Manipulation, Probability Manipulation, and Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1) (Souls are constructs of magic, composed of their form, the metaphysical nature of a being, their luck, their mind and their direction. Kratos is strong enough to to pull his soul back into his own body if one attempts to steal it, doing so multiple times in his battle with Hades. Damaging souls can shatter and fragment their memories as a consequence[16])

I'm uncertain if I should add something like "however, he will still perish if his soul is successfully removed from his body", or if the mechanics of his resistance are clear enough already, so input is appreciated.

 

[Catbowtie]

Yeah, as I though, Hades' soul rip will kill Kratos if he's unable to pull his soul back in. This is still a resistance, but it has a notable caveat. If someone is strong enough to overpower his attempts to pull his soul back in, he'll die, so I think his resistance could be rewritten to represent that:

I'm thinking maybe higher Lifting Strength to pull out Kratos soul? With a slight dip of Instinctive Action for Kratos?

I'm uncertain if I should add something like "however, he will still perish if his soul is successfully removed from his body", or if the mechanics of his resistance are clear enough already, so input is appreciated.

I assume it's a given that once someone steals Kratos' soul, he dies. If anything, that should be added to the Weaknesses section.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm thinking maybe higher Lifting Strength to pull out Kratos soul? With a slight dip of Instinctive Action for Kratos?

Kratos' struggle against Hades is already in his lifting strength section, actually. Although I have to ask, where are you getting instinctive action from?

I assume it's a given that once someone steals Kratos' soul, he dies. If anything, that should be added to the Weaknesses section.

Ngl that might be a little silly. A lot of characters will die if their souls are removed, yet we don't list that in their weakness section by default.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Ngl that might be a little silly. A lot of characters will die if their souls are removed, yet we don't list that in their weakness section by default.

My weakness is nuclear bombs

But yeah, the new justification looks good

 

[Catbowtie]

Although I have to ask, where are you getting instinctive action from?

When Hades is attempting to pull out a Titan's soul, the titan looks to be completely helpless and has to be saved. It could be that that particular Titan was either too weak or too tired to resist, but that's up to common interpretation. The next titan Hades uses his Soul Manipulation on looks to also not try to pull it back it in. While he was getting restrained by Zeus, it stopped right around the end of the process. Comparing that to the way Kratos was having his soul pulled, it looks identical, with Kratos' soul barely sticking in by it's feet. It also looks to be a very demanding thing to do. The first titan was doing nothing while his ally was being restrained by Zeus' lightning and getting his soul ripped out. Though, it was just me brainstorming.

Ngl that might be a little silly. A lot of characters will die if their souls are removed, yet we don't list that in their weakness section by default.

The added clarification helps, but you're right too. It's whatever is decided.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

When Hades is attempting to pull out a Titan's soul, the titan looks to be completely helpless and has to be saved. It could be that that particular Titan was either too weak or too tired to resist, but that's up to common interpretation. The next titan Hades uses his Soul Manipulation on looks to also not try to pull it back it in. While he was getting restrained by Zeus, it stopped right around the end of the process. Comparing that to the way Kratos was having his soul pulled, it looks identical, with Kratos' soul barely sticking in by it's feet. It also looks to be a very demanding thing to do. The first titan was doing nothing while his ally was being restrained by Zeus' lightning and getting his soul ripped out. Though, it was just me brainstorming.

I'm still not quite sure why this would be instinctive action. Are you saying that Kratos (or his soul) moved without realizing it in order to fight back against Hades before it was too late? If so, I can kind of see where you're coming from with that, but I think it's moreso based on how Hades' soul manipulation works; When ripping out a soul, he has to physically exert himself as though he were dislodging a physical object (you can also see this during the war with the Titans). I think that would give anyone a chance to save themselves, assuming they were fast and strong enough.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Giannysmag]

I agree with the OP

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Bump

Two evaluating staff have spoken. Given the ruckus this thread conjured, I've little doubt the supporters are aware of it, and even if they hadn't, this is usable.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Two evaluating staff have spoken. Given the ruckus this thread conjured, I've little doubt the supporters are aware of it, and even if they hadn't, this is usable.

Figured it might need a little extra input since it covers more controversial stuff like abstract existence, but if you say it's alright then it's alright.

By the way, if you're unlocking the pages, then could you also unlock every page in the GoW category? Ant appears to have given me the go-ahead for this CRT.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Figured it might need a little extra input since it covers more controversial stuff like abstract existence, but if you say it's alright then it's alright.

By the way, if you're unlocking the pages, then could you also unlock every page in the GoW category? Ant appears to have given me the go-ahead for this CRT.

I did that.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I did that.

Awesome, thank you. I'll apply the edits later tonight.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Edits have been applied, thread can be closed, new thread should be evaluated, remember to like and subscribe, etc etc