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The Goddamn President vs A Teen with a Dream

Probably, if Funny decides to leave Love Train for a moment he dies but as long as hes in it Giorno can't reach him. But with that said, Funny has no method of killing Giorno unless he tries to crash Love Train's walls into Giorno but I don't think he has ever used it like that.
 
Wait, is misfortune redirection considered an attack? I'm pretty sure it's something that passively happens if I remember correctly and if that is the case GER can't redirect it and Funny could actually win.
 
Dienomite22 said:
Wait, is misfortune redirection considered an attack? I'm pretty sure it's something that passively happens if I remember correctly and if that is the case GER can't redirect it and Funny could actually win.
Click to expand...
Why would it need to be an attack towards Giorno for it to be negated? GER can set things in general to 0, even set Mista's attack to 0, which wasnt even directed at him. All GER has to do in that situation is 1. Negate the ability at its source opposed to its effect. 2. Negate the effects once they happen. Which one it doesnt matter, both are fine.

Both of which he's capable of doing. Funny has no wincondition against GER, he cant do anything that GER cant pull the uno reverse card on.
 
@Chariot180

GER only negates attacks, nothing passive or natural. It's why Notorious BIG won over GER since it's speed is passive. Plus, GER hasn't been shown to negate probability manipulation that works similiarly to Love Train and I don't think he can negate the source of Love Train's misfortune redirection since it's behind Love train and in Funny's body. But this is all if Love Train is considered passive, which I think it would be since it just happens naturally with or without Funny/anyone's doing.
 
>GER only negates attacks, nothing passive or natural. It's why Notorious BIG won over GER since it's speed is passive. Plus, GER hasn't been shown to negate probability manipulation that works similiarly to Love Train and I don't think he can negate the source of Love Train's misfortune redirection since it's behind Love train and in Funny's body. But this is all if Love Train is considered passive, which I think it would be since it just happens naturally with or without Funny/anyone's doing.

That's wrong though, it's been shown negating Giorno's injuries/death after it happened, BIg cant do shit to GER, it'd be set back to 0 the moment it tried to move, GER doesnt need to negate probably, he just needs to negate the effects of what the probability would cause, he can negate the source because that source is Funny, nothing is stopping GER from making Funny unable to retaliate and GER's powers have an extremely wide range, ranging from universal at minimum, likely at least low multiversal given his powers still forced Diavolo to die across different dimensions, I can see GER's powers reaching Funny.
 
>That's wrong though, it's been shown negating Giorno's injuries/death after it happened, BIg cant do shit to GER, it'd be set back to 0 the moment it tried to move, GER doesnt need to negate probably, he just needs to negate the effects of what the probability would cause, he can negate the source because that source is Funny, nothing is stopping GER from making Funny unable to retaliate and GER's powers have an extremely wide range, ranging from universal at minimum, likely at least low multiversal given his powers still forced Diavolo to die across different dimensions, I can see GER's powers reaching Funny.

Those are all actions GER negated, wether or not they were performed against Giorno doesn't matter. GER negated Giorno's death by negating Diavolo's action of killing Giorno, regardless if it's after or before Giorno's death it doesn't matter. IIRC B.I.G. won because it doesn't perform actions, it's just naturally as fast as what's near it which means Giorno can't negate it. Don't know how that match is looked at today but that's how it went.

In order for GER to negate the effects the probability would cause it would have to show proof of being able to negate probability manipulation. Love Train doesn't negate causality manipulation but it has an infinite amount of barriers that GER can't bypass at all because GER's range is shown only after he "kills" Diavolo and Diavolo's death goes on infinitely overtime, not in one burst like for what is needed to bypass Love Train.
 
>Those are all actions GER negated, wether or not they were performed against Giorno doesn't matter.

Mista shooting his gun and Trish moving werent actions performed against Giorno. In fact they werent even actions performed in the time erase, GER reset everything back several seconds before the erase, to before even Mista loaded his gun despite Mista doing it and firing before Duavolo erased time.

>GER negated Giorno's death by negating Diavolo's action of killing Giorno, regardless if it's after or before Giorno's death it doesn't matter.

Im talkig about when Giorno had his skull split open and his eyes rolled back into his head before GER was even fully manifested.

>IIRC B.I.G. won because it doesn't perform actions, it's just naturally as fast as what's near it which means Giorno can't negate it. Don't know how that match is looked at today but that's how it went.

Eh, if it's old I can handwave it but at most that only means GER cant negate BIG's speed, BIG moving and attacking Giorno itself though is still an action.

>In order for GER to negate the effects the probability would cause it would have to show proof of being able to negate probability manipulation.

As far as I'm concerned, if it's within canon JoJo, GER can negate it given that it was called the ultimate Stand and has the power to anything to nothing iirc in JoJoveller, in which Love Train is in. WOG imo.

>Love Train doesn't negate causality manipulation but it has an infinite amount of barriers that GER can't bypass at all because GER's range is shown only after he "kills" Diavolo and Diavolo's death goes on infinitely overtime, not in one burst like for what is needed to bypass Love Train.

You're right, it doesnt but since when was it infinite amount of walls? From what I know it's only one wall albeit with a bunch of hax in conjuction with it, it being only one means that GER definitely has the range to effect past it, infinite you'd be right but only one or even a few is free game given that GER dumped Diavolo's ass int a few parallel worlds initially meaning that's at least his low-end range we can safely say.
 
>Mista shooting his gun and Trish moving werent actions performed against Giorno. In fact they werent even actions performed in the time erase, GER reset everything back several seconds before the erase, to before even Mista loaded his gun despite Mista doing it and firing before Duavolo erased time.

This doesn't matter, my argument has nothing to do with wether or not actions need to be directed a Giorno in order for GER to negate it.

>Im talkig about when Giorno had his skull split open and his eyes rolled back into his head before GER was even fully manifested.

As was I, Diavolo performed an action which killed Giorno and GER negate the action. He didn't negate Giorno's death, just the action that caused it which saved Giorno. The result is basically the same but the difference is important in this match.

>Eh, if it's old I can handwave it but at most that only means GER cant negate BIG's speed, BIG moving and attacking Giorno itself though is still an action.

The "GER can't negate BIG speed" part is basically what I'm getting at with Love Train.IIRC Both are passive and aren't controlled by anyone or anything and Love Train's redirection isn't an action performed by anyone or anything, the description refers to it as a "phenomenon"

>As far as I'm concerned, if it's within canon JoJo, GER can negate it given that it was called the ultimate Stand and has the power to anything to nothing iirc in JoJoveller, in which Love Train is in. WOG imo.

Maybe true, but VBW and WoG don't mix well together with statements like that.

>You're right, it doesnt but since when was it infinite amount of walls? From what I know it's only one wall albeit with a bunch of hax in conjuction with it, it being only one means that GER definitely has the range to effect past it, infinite you'd be right but only one or even a few is free game given that GER dumped Diavolo's ass int a few parallel worlds initially meaning that's at least his low-end range we can safely say.

I was always under the impression that Love Train was infinite walls, I remember there were scans showing the barrier with parallel Funny's within them and describing it as infinite and Johnny and Gyro needing infinite rotational energy to pass the barrier but that I haven't read SBR for like 5 years. GER's range is only shown to be low multiversal when he does the death loop thing, not just with general abilities or negation. I can't think of a way for GER to actually get past the barrier, only multiversal ranged, infinite energy, bfr resistant bullets bypassed it.
 
>This doesn't matter, my argument has nothing to do with wether or not actions need to be directed a Giorno in order for GER to negate it.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I'm pretty sure that was said somehwere here.

>As was I, Diavolo performed an action which killed Giorno and GER negate the action. He didn't negate Giorno's death, just the action that caused it which saved Giorno. The result is basically the same but the difference is important in this match.

He never negated that action, Diavolo landed that punch, everyone remembered Diavolo landing that punch, and nothing indicated anything was set prior to Diavolo land that punch. The only thing that we know happened is Giorno was bleeding out with his eyes glazed over and then he was fine, although we do know GER didnt negate the punch that landed that injury, given it clearly still happened.

>Eh, if it's old I can handwave it but at most that only means GER cant negate BIG's speed, BIG moving and attacking Giorno itself though is still an action.

The "GER can't negate BIG speed" part is basically what I'm getting at with Love Train.IIRC Both are passive and aren't controlled by anyone or anything and Love Train's redirection isn't an action performed by anyone or anything, the description refers to it as a "phenomenon"

Yes, if we take it as GER being unable to negate anything that is described as something is innately that way, aka passive in this case, fine, but, GER can negate the effects of what the passibe ability will do. He doesnt even need the ability to negate probability if he can negate the effects of the probability like negating a lethal wound or the movement of the land.

>Maybe true, but VBW and WoG don't mix well together with statements like that.

I definitely understand that as a broad rule of thumb, but if it's restricted to only things within the book and source material or the author's personal works, im personally fine with it, it's no different than something like Mob and Tatsumaki being comparable from OPM.

I was always under the impression that Love Train was infinite walls, I remember there were scans showing the barrier with parallel Funny's within them and describing it as infinite

That is actually true, I was looking through Part 7 earlier for quotes for something unrelated. In fact here's the scan. Link 1, although while what you said was true, it isnt talking about Love Train (in fact Love Train wasnt a thing yet, it would appear next chapter), despite that it does ook exactly the same as love train so idk.

>and Johnny and Gyro needing infinite rotational energy to pass the barrier but that I haven't read SBR for like 5 years.

>GER's range is only shown to be low multiversal when he does the death loop thing, not just with general abilities or negation. I can't think of a way for GER to actually get past the barrier, only multiversal ranged, infinite energy, bfr resistant bullets bypassed it

Well in that case it depends on what we consider love train to be, if it's one wall, GER says lol and his powers can effect Funny fine, if it's infinite walls then GER would be extremely hard pressed to do anything to Funny from within love train. Although infinite energy/bfr resistant doesnt need to be something GER has in order to effect Funny, he just needs the range on his powers to reach him.
 
Valentine can't do anything and Giorno just has to figure that moving the shining girl away from the shining guy gives him the win, which would be very easy with his bullsh*t intelligence. How the hell is this inconclusive? Giorno stomps.
 
Eficiente said:
Valentine can't do anything and Giorno just has to figure that moving the shining girl away from the shining guy gives him the win, which would be very easy with his bullsh*t intelligence. How the hell is this inconclusive? Giorno stomps.
Click to expand...
Johnny and Gyro both have higher intellgience than Giorno, they knew about the weakness and they couldn't do it.
 
>He never negated that action, Diavolo landed that punch, everyone remembered Diavolo landing that punch, and nothing indicated anything was set prior to Diavolo land that punch. The only thing that we know happened is Giorno was bleeding out with his eyes glazed over and then he was fine, although we do know GER didnt negate the punch that landed that injury, given it clearly still happened.

That's negating the action, GER can work after the action has been performed like it did with the blood in Giorno's eye thing.

>Yes, if we take it as GER being unable to negate anything that is described as something is innately that way, aka passive in this case, fine, but, GER can negate the effects of what the passibe ability will do. He doesnt even need the ability to negate probability if he can negate the effects of the probability like negating a lethal wound or the movement of the land.

This depends on what the passive ability is and what GER has been shown to negate which is only actions, time skip and death but nothing about probability manipulation. He may or may not but if he can't then that's a problem though it is up to personal interpretation.

>I definitely understand that as a broad rule of thumb, but if it's restricted to only things within the book and source material or the author's personal works, im personally fine with it, it's no different than something like Mob and Tatsumaki being comparable from OPM.

I'm fine with it as well but most others would disagree with using it, especially on the staff side so I just treat it as they would.

>That is actually true, I was looking through Part 7 earlier for quotes for something unrelated. In fact here's the scan. Link 1, although while what you said was true, it isnt talking about Love Train (in fact Love Train wasnt a thing yet, it would appear next chapter), despite that it does ook exactly the same as love train so idk.

Oh then never mind about this.

>Well in that case it depends on what we consider love train to be, if it's one wall, GER says lol and his powers can effect Funny fine, if it's infinite walls then GER would be extremely hard pressed to do anything to Funny from within love train. Although infinite energy/bfr resistant doesnt need to be something GER has in order to effect Funny, he just needs the range on his powers to reach him.

That's basically how I view it at the moment but I don't think GER's normal negation has a range that would reach Love Train regardless if the walls are infinite or not.
 
>That's negating the action, GER can work after the action has been performed like it did with the blood in Giorno's eye thing.

It isnt though, GER never negated Diavolo's punch, the punch still happened, everyone remembered it, nothing hinted that GER negated it and nobody on the cast suggested it, GER negated the damage Giorno recieved but he never negated the action that did said damage.

>This depends on what the passive ability is and what GER has been shown to negate which is only actions, time skip and death but nothing about probability manipulation. He may or may not but if he can't then that's a problem though it is up to personal interpretation.

It seems you dont understand, GER doesnt have to negate the probability manipultion to begin with, he can just negate the effects of what the probability manipulation would do. Even if he cant negate the probability he can negate the things it would cause like lethal wounds, the moving landmass and etc Love Train cant cause anything to happen that GER cant negate, why those things happen doesnt matter if he can negate the thing in question in spite of how it's caused. Those things happen because of probability manip but they arent probability manip itself.

>I'm fine with it as well but most others would disagree with using it, especially on the staff side so I just treat it as they would.

If that's the case then we're looking at some very blatant double standards, given there's a handful of verses that abuse the shit out of things like that, with a example I gave. (and ger aint even that bad, it's generally accepted he's the most powerful canon stand).

>Oh then never mind about this.

Actually I found another example in regards to Love Train that fits it too, albeit it doesnt confirm infinite layers or anything either, especially given that it's called, in the same arc, a wall, and a layer (singular), it's probably one wall but connects to a metric fuckton of universes. But at least it's a maybe depending on intepretation with this quote.

>That's basically how I view it at the moment but I don't think GER's normal negation has a range that would reach Love Train regardless if the walls are infinite or not.

GER's normal negation is his RTZ ability, which has at least a multiversal range given it can still negate Diavolo's death while in a different universe. There is no such thing as normal Negation, it's all one ability. If it aint infinite then GER has the feats to effect Funny from within it.

On a different note, while looking through Part 7, I found a line that suggests that anything that touches Love Train, not only is it BFR'd, but it's transmutated and anihilated too (with the latter being outright said), so while not relevant, that's a bit of a hax boost for it (and a hax buff for Act 4).
 
Johnny and Gyro both have higher intellgience than Giorno, they knew about the weakness and they couldn't do it.

Wtf, Giorno has higher intellgience than both of them put together. The context you are ignoring it's either suspicious or something more, Gyro & Johnny were trying to save Lucy and Valentine was following them, here Giorno has the powers to not let that happen, and that's ignoring how Valentine would just have his willpower put to 0.
 
@Chariot190

>It isnt though, GER never negated Diavolo's punch, the punch still happened, everyone remembered it, nothing hinted that GER negated it and nobody on the cast suggested it, GER negated the damage Giorno recieved but he never negated the action that did said damage.

Looking back at the chapter, this may actually be true and could possibly give Giorno another upgrade or be an additional to note in the description for Return to Zero. GER negating Giorno's death or damage taken is pretty big.

>It seems you dont understand, GER doesnt have to negate the probability manipultion to begin with, he can just negate the effects of what the probability manipulation would do. Even if he cant negate the probability he can negate the things it would cause like lethal wounds, the moving landmass and etc Love Train cant cause anything to happen that GER cant negate, why those things happen doesnt matter if he can negate the thing in question in spite of how it's caused. Those things happen because of probability manip but they arent probability manip itself.

I get that but it's not that Love Train causes those things to happen but rather it gives Giorno or whatever else extremely bad luck which in turn causes those things to happen. It's a question of if Giorno can negate his luck being bad that could cause his death i.e. a plain crashing down on top of him or slipping and breaking his neck.

>Actually I found another example in regards to Love Train that fits it too, albeit it doesnt confirm infinite layers or anything either, especially given that it's called, in the same arc, a wall, and a layer (singular), it's probably one wall but connects to a metric fuckton of universes. But at least it's a maybe depending on intepretation with this quote.

It seems like it's possible but I'll leave it to personal judgment since it still isn't definite sadly.

>GER's normal negation is his RTZ ability, which has at least a multiversal range given it can still negate Diavolo's death while in a different universe. There is no such thing as normal Negation, it's all one ability. If it aint infinite then GER has the feats to effect Funny from within it.

But GER has only been shown to negate his enemy's death at that range so we can't take it to mean his negation works within that range all the time since that has many implications such as GER can snipe for low multiversal range or GER can negate low multiversal ranged attacks or something like that.

>On a different note, while looking through Part 7, I found a line that suggests that anything that touches Love Train, not only is it BFR'd, but it's transmutated and anihilated too (with the latter being outright said), so while not relevant, that's a bit of a hax boost for it (and a hax buff for Act 4).

I believe that should give Gyro and Johnny more resistances with Infinite Rotation aswell.
 
Eficiente said:
Wtf, Giorno has higher intellgience than both of them put together. The context you are ignoring it's either suspicious or something more, Gyro & Johnny were trying to save Lucy and Valentine was following them, here Giorno has the powers to not let that happen, and that's ignoring how Valentine would just have his willpower put to 0.
Click to expand...
You would have to make a CRT to prove Giorno has superior intelligence to both of them because as of right now he doesn't.

Funny had Lucy with him alot of them time within the barriers of Love Train. Also, Chariot and I are discussing if GER can bypass Love Train to begin with.
 
I'll possibly respond to most of that later because atm I'm looking through random jojo interviews and shit but

>But GER has only been shown to negate his enemy's death at that range so we can't take it to mean his negation works within that range all the time since that has many implications such as GER can snipe for low multiversal range or GER can negate low multiversal ranged attacks or something like that.

It's literally the same power, if RTZ can negate a death in a different universe, it should be able to negate whatever it possibly can do in another universe, given GER knows but he can kinda straight up see Funny despite him hiding behind a wall, as such that's a bit of a none issue. GER only being shown to negate a death at that range doesnt matter, what matters is that we know that he can negate things at that range, it's literally the same power, wether it be negating a death or negating an action or walking, it dont matter, it isnt a different ability, it's just RTZ.


Also as for Giorno being smarter then Johnny and Gyro, ehhhhhhhhhh, I dont know, Giorno is probably smarter than Johnny, excluding education, Giorno seems to be smarter in a fight and planning/trickery on top of utilization of his skillset but Gyro? Well I personally dont know, Gyro not only has an education, is trained to do battle, has shown his genius in many fights pulling off many tricks, traps an ways to utilize his powers and he's shown to be no fool as well. He and Giorno are probably about the same when it comes to battling and things like deception and utilization of their power and skills on top of planning and simply undersanding opponents.
 
Also, Funny when Ball Breaker breaks through does say dimensional walls, but I cant tell if he means that love train has walls or that he's talking about how Ball Breaker bypassed a wall when only D4C is shown capable of bypassing walls. Given like a few pages later he says Love Train is a singular wall again, idk.
 
>I'll possibly respond to most of that later because atm I'm looking through random jojo interviews and shit but

Take your time, I need to get ready for bed anyhow.

>It's literally the same power, if RTZ can negate a death in a different universe, it should be able to negate whatever it possibly can do in another universe, given GER knows but he can kinda straight up see Funny despite him hiding behind a wall, as such that's a bit of a none issue. GER only being shown to negate a death at that range doesnt matter, what matters is that we know that he can negate things at that range, it's literally the same power, wether it be negating a death or negating an action or walking, it dont matter, it isnt a different ability, it's just RTZ.

GER's death negation is not the same as regular negation, the description of the stand makes it clear that only after killing the target will their death be negated infinitely and what they mean by infinitely is across multiple universes since that's what we seen it do. That range could very well be only tied to that aspect of the ability.
 
Dienomite22 said:
You would have to make a CRT to prove Giorno has superior intelligence to both of them because as of right now he doesn't.

Funny had Lucy with him alot of them time within the barriers of Love Train. Also, Chariot and I are discussing if GER can bypass Love Train to begin with.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure you know Giorno's feat and thus what he can do here, no out-of-context stuff would change that.

Funny did not have Lucy, she was away. Love Train does nothing to mind hax as it's not something that aims to go into his barriers like a normal attack. Simple.
 
Actually, the corpe parts do protect against Mind Hax, Love Train is just an extension of the corpse's power, in fact I can probably find that scan that says Love Train is just the Corpe's abilitys coupled with D4C's dimension powers and Love Train's defkection is just the corpse's but on a wider scale. But, GER doesnt do his will power shit through generic mind hax, so idk if it'd do anything for funny at all.
 
I don't think that's the case but ok. GER's willpower thing is "generic" mind hax, hence it's not shown in the same way as its Causality Manip and it's always there once applied.
 
Eficiente said:
I'm pretty sure you know Giorno's feat and thus what he can do here, no out-of-context stuff would change that.

Funny did not have Lucy, she was away. Love Train does nothing to mind hax as it's not something that aims to go into his barriers like a normal attack. Simple.
Click to expand...
Chariot pretty much said what I was going to about the willpower stuff.

I said Funny had Lucy with him alot of the time, he was even riding around with her on his horse after he left the train, so yes he did have Lucy.
 
I have no idea what are you even arguing there, Valentine doesn't have a horse and none of that matters to the very simple thing Giorno can do about it.
 
You comepletely missed the point. You said Funny did not have Lucy and she was away and I corrected you, the horse thing doesn't matter. You keep saying Giorno can do something but don't specify what.
 
The problem here is simple, I didn't say what Giorno could do as I thought about it as incredibly obvious; He could make an animal/s to move her, or he could do that himself. There. The rest matters as much as it seems.
 
I mean sure but, do you think Funny would just let that happen? How far do you think those animals or Giorno can move her before Love Train wears off? She only go taken away from Funny because Funny was distracted.
 
Eficiente said:
Pretty much due to GER's Return to 0.
Click to expand...
And how will he do that? Return to Zero isn't some sort of telekenisis and as you can see by my discussion with Chariot it definitely isn't that simple unless you have a good and definitive argument on how RtZ will pass Love Train.
 
Return to Zero targets everything, it's better than some TK where one would have to target Valentine inside of Love Train. I have no idea how did you think it would remotely be like the physical attacks Love Train has BFRed. Even without a vulnerable Valentine inside Rt0 would still work as Casuality Manip to reverse stuff is not something that would get BFRed, as that would be an action and actions are going back, it doesn't make sense.
 
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