The Gemini Saint x The Hermit E-Girl

[noninho]

= speed
Both at Universal+ (Low 2-C)
Optional equipment are restricted

Saga:
Futaba:
Incon:

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

What Saga did to you?

 

[noninho]

What Saga did to you?

8th Sense armor Gemini Saga

I understood it now lol
he legit has wincons

 

[noninho]

And even with she not being able to do anything about AD, Saga don't open with it unless he know she's a threat immediately when the battle starts

He regens the attacks he take, his immortality is not negged and then he gets bored and AD
I would really like if this wasn't a stomp for him, but now I'm afraid of it

 

[Hasty12345]

Saga doesn’t deserve this

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

And even with she not being able to do anything about AD, Saga don't open with it unless he know she's a threat immediately when the battle starts

He regens the attacks he take, his immortality is not negged and then he gets bored and AD
I would really like if this wasn't a stomp for him, but now I'm afraid of it

Bruh, How Saga regenerate from Conceptual tier 1 damage?

Saga cannot interact with the Persona and the Girl can one-Shot him

 

[noninho]

Saga cannot interact with the Persona and the Girl can one-Shot him

Saga has Soul and matter Manip; Prove it via calc.
Also, if Saga BFRs Futaba, the persona can't do shit

Bruh, How Saga regenerate from Conceptual tier 1 damage?

Where is it written conceptual damage on the Low 2-C key?

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Saga has Soul and matter Manip; Prove it via calc.
Also, if Saga BFRs Futaba, the persona can't do shit

Another Dimension is a Wincon yeah but Saga need to know that he has to using it

Where is it written conceptual damage on the Low 2-C key?

The persona has Cognitive Physiology

Cognitive Physiology

Cognitive Physiology refers to the particular set of characteristics displayed by the main enemies, and allies, of the Megami Tensei franchise. In spite of being dubbed a number of different titles over the series, such as Demons, Shadows & Personas, and even Mirages, all of them ultimately...

vsbattles.fandom.com

"Non-Physical Interaction and Durability Negation via Mind, Soul, Information Manipulation, and Conceptual Manipulation: As seen above, Demons have the ability to launch "spiritual attacks," which damage opponents on both the physical and the underlying spiritual/mental/informational level, and are perfectly capable of directly harming each other, who exist as entities of quantum information devoid of the restraints of matter"

 

[noninho]

Soul and mind are resisted
The rest, I need a minute to talk about

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Soul and mind are resisted
The rest, I need a minute to talk about

SMT soul and mind hax have Tier 1 potency

 

[noninho]

Tier 1 potency

What does it mean?

Information Manipulation

Ok, How does it matter here (sorry if it is dumb) and How is Law manip affected by it?

Conceptual Manipulation

Does it get stopped by acausality? And by law manip resistance?

but Saga need to know that he has to using it

What does it mean man? Really don't get it

 

[Huesito88]

Wait how is another dimension a wincon?

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

What does it mean?

It means that it is on the same level of power as Tier 1, even if the character using the ability is otherwise a Lower Tier. Basically... It's a really big problem unless one has resistance's of a similar Tier

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Wait how is another dimension a wincon?

from what I see she has no way to get out if Saga leaves her trapped in AD

Ok, How does it matter here (sorry if it is dumb) and How is Law manip affected by it?

Because it is fundamental information of the person, imagine that Saga is just a data folder, Futaba attacking Saga would basically throw him into the trash on your PC

Does it get stopped by acausality? And by law manip resistance?

No, they are completely different powers

What does it mean man? Really don't get it

That Saga doesn't start with AD, I'm just saying that he would have to know that his opponent can kill him and resist most of his techniques.

 

[Huesito88]

Can Futaba herself die or will she resurrect upon death?

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Can Futaba herself die or will she resurrect upon death?

Idk, we have to call some persona Supporters

 

[Lukewoesal007]

This is a complete and utter stomp.

Also, if Saga BFRs Futaba, the persona can't do shit

This is also blatantly false. Demons/Personas have the ability to BFR each other and can protect themselves from this ability.

 

[Huesito88]

Alright I'll bite is her level of Matter destruction hax resistance on a 1-A scale?

 

[Lukewoesal007]

Alright I'll bite is her level of Matter destruction hax resistance on a 1-A scale?

It doesn't even need to be.

• Hacking and Technology Manipulation: Due to their nature as entities of information, rather than matter, Demons are able to hack into computers and other devices[16], as well as even hack into a person's brain[2], and manipulate and improve electronic devices through their powers[5].

• Incorporeality: Demons are consistently cited as information-driven[26] existences[8], in which information exists homogenous to human thoughts[18] and experiences[4], void of physical form[17]. Stated to emerge[17] from[17] the souls and desires[15] of humanity[15], and their bodies are themselves composed of Magnetite, the fulcrum of human desires[5].

• Resistance to Physics Manipulation and Matter Manipulation: Demons are composed of Magnetite, an energy substance derived from human thoughts, which is also unbound by the laws of physics[5], followed by Shadows, who are constructed from a material that voids physics[18], granting immunity to anything that abides by it[19]. Mirages serve as no objection to the rule[17].

Can we stop with the stomp matches?

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

I think at this point don’t make matches with SMT unless it’s in-verse matches

 

[noninho]

It doesn't even need to be.

Aight

-the first one configures mind manip, which is resisted. Like "hacking someone's mind" is clearly a type of mind manip.
-demons clearly have a soul, and nothing about soul manip being resisted until now, so...
-Saga has a type of immortality that isn't negged by any ability so far, acausality/Incorporeality and Low-Godly regen
-this last one just gets ****** when miracles and law manip get taken into account (miracles in this verse are capable of a **** ton of things, so negging that will be hard for yall smt supporters)

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

I think at this point don’t make matches with SMT unless it’s in-verse matches

Not too many people wanna do that though...

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Not too many people wanna do that though...

Better than no matches at all

 

[noninho]

Grew tired of it
Next time I come here, will be for a list regarding all powers for both sides
Which shall become a advantage, which shall become a disadvantage, what's resisted, what's not.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

-the first one configures mind manip, which is resisted. Like "hacking someone's mind" is clearly a type of mind manip.

That wasn't the point of me bringing that to light. All Demons, and thus Personas and their users, are immune to conventional Matter manip.

-demons clearly have a soul, and nothing about soul manip being resisted until now, so...

Please read the Cognitive Physiology page. They resist Soul manip on a 1-A level.

-Saga has a type of immortality that isn't negged by any ability so far, acausality/Incorporeality and Low-Godly regen

His immortality is dependent on his Low-Godly regen, which is negged by the fact any Demon/Persona can attack the Soul on the 1-A level. He can't regenerate from his soul if his soul is destroyed.

-this last one just gets ****** when miracles and law manip get taken into account (miracles in this verse are capable of a **** ton of things, so negging that will be hard for yall smt supporters)

Negging it will be extremely ******* easy. From what I've read on Saga's page, Miracles only extend to probability manipulation, which is one of the many abilities Futaba resists through her resistance to Cognition. The burden of proof is on you to explain how this ability would even work in the way you've described as well.

 

[noninho]

Finally someone let me out of my case

Document's written, here ya go(this document is now completely different)

 

[noninho]

Negging it will be extremely ******* easy. From what I've read on Saga's page, Miracles only extend to probability manipulation, which is one of the many abilities Futaba resists through her resistance to Cognition.

The Miracles doesn't apply to the enemy, they're ampings for the user/producer of them

 

[noninho]

His immortality is dependent on his Low-Godly regen, which is negged by the fact any Demon/Persona can attack the Soul on the 1-A level. He can't regenerate from his soul if his soul is destroyed.

His immortality is not going to be destroyed in one hit you cannot prove to be 1-A lol

They resist Soul manip on a 1-A level.

Ok, they do resist it, but I really don't know where are you taking this 1-A from

"Low-Tier (9-A to Low 2-C)"
This character is someone taking orders from another person, and this other person is leveled in Low 2-C. Where are you getting this 1-A?

 

[Lukewoesal007]

The Miracles doesn't apply to the enemy, they're ampings for the user/producer of them

Then it's not going to help his case at all.

His immortality is not going to be destroyed in one hit you cannot prove to be 1-A lol

"Low-Tier (9-A to Low 2-C)"
This character is someone taking orders from another person, and this other person is leveled in Low 2-C. Where are you getting this 1-A?

Except I can easily prove so. As per the Cognitive Physiology page, Demons/Personas can resist the effects of the Atziluth/Kadath, a 1-A realm which dissolves the mind, soul, concept, and information. As nonphysical beings composed solely of Cognition and information, it is necessary to attack the aforementioned aspects of their existence in order to damage them. Demons can evidently be killed and killed each other, therefore all attacks target the mind, soul, concept, and information on the 1-A level. Futaba isn't physically 1-A, but her hax are.

Ok, they do resist it, but I really don't know where are you taking this 1-A from

See above.

Document's written, here ya go

Now to respond to this:

1. what means that it demands at least an order for the Personas to do something, so every single thing that Necronomicon can do, would require first that Futaba ordered so, then if Futaba get BFRd, it is over.
2. Reinforcing it: "Once the contract has been formed, the person then receives a special thief suit that represents their idea of a rebel, and the mask becomes a normal mask that they can freely take off without pain and serves as the conduit for their Persona abilities." it would even require that Futaba takes off her mask! This is a huge problem...

This entire argument is rooted in a fundamental misunderstanding of how Personas work. To address the second point first, she would start with Necronomicon summoned, as she's never seen in combat without it. The argument that Futaba would have to "command" her Persona is also entirely ridiculous and completely antithetical to what a Persona even is (a literal manifestation of one's own mind/psyche/soul). Persona attacks are thought-activated, and removing one's mask is something that can be done entirely passively and subconsciously, as shown by Joker here.

1. THE CLIP FOR BFR RESISTANCE DOES NOT SHOW A BFR RESISTANCE, IT SHOWS SOMEONE USING POCKET-REALITY MANIP TO AVOID THE EFFECT OF BFR ON THE GUY IN QUESTION
2. via the BFR being stopped and being said "you can open your eyes. This is a world that lives inside of me"
3. The demon in question could use Pocket Reality Manip faster than the BFR could work, does not prove all demons cannot be affected by BFR. And in this case, this Persona/Shadow/Demon cannot use it faster than Saga via = speed.
4. BFR Resistance taken off.

This is what's currently accepted on the wiki. If you have issue with it, you can make a CRT and had it removed that way. You can't hand-wave abilities. Even if you did, Futaba has resistance to BFR as an extension of her resistance to Cognition. I should also note that Saga doesn't even ******* have BFR on his profile. So unless there's something I'm missing from a universal power page, this entire argument has been over nothing.

The rest of your arguments hinge on ideas I've already disproven.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

I should also note that Saga doesn't even ******* have BFR on his profile. So unless there's something I'm missing from a universal power page, this entire argument has been over nothing.

Wait what? I thought he had it, it's the primary ability of Another Dimension

Msm Saint Seiya profiles are more shit that i thought

 

[noninho]

Demons/Personas can resist the effects of the Atziluth/Kadath, a 1-A realm which dissolves the mind, soul, concept, and information.

This is not applicable at all for every single demon/persona/Shadow until proven so and a wiki page for this does not cover TV worlds (p4), Dark Hour (p3) or Mementos/Palaces (p5) as one of them or a specimen of it, and it does mention a whole lot of different types of this world/archetype of world. So Necronomicon, a Persona who's only active in a world that it's not mentioned there, can't do so.

she would start with Necronomicon summoned, as she's never seen in combat without it

Yep, this was taken into account

The argument that Futaba would have to "command" her Persona is also entirely ridiculous and completely antithetical to what a Persona even is (a literal manifestation of one's own mind/psyche/soul). Persona attacks are thought-activated, and removing one's mask is something that can be done entirely passively and subconsciously, as shown by Joker here.

He still took some time to do this/took a clear "mental effort" to do so, and her persona being mostly a defensive thing shows clearly to me that it would be just like I described
Saga always starts attacking while she haven't been seen doing nothing like this.
The attack would get reflected because it's clearly seen that they have the ability to do so and she wouldn't take the blow freely
Saga is unaffected by his own reflecting move because he resists it.
She then thinks/commands an attack
Saga predicts it and dodges
Saga BFR her
Gg

This is what's currently accepted on the wiki. If you have issue with it, you can make a CRT and had it removed that way. You can't hand-wave abilities.

I will in the future, but anyway it's clearly seen on the source provided that it's unapplicable here and I explained it

Even if you did, Futaba has resistance to BFR as an extension of her resistance to Cognition.

Then I just got wrecked here

I should also note that Saga doesn't even ******* have BFR on his profile

There's a CRT for that going on, made by me, because Another Dimension is an ability that is just a flavored BFR, but doesn't matter anymore since somehow I missed the "Cognition resistance".
I ****** up but it was a cool discussion

 

[Lukewoesal007]

This is not applicable at all for every single demon/persona/Shadow until proven so and a wiki page for this does not cover TV worlds (p4), Dark Hour (p3) or Mementos/Palaces (p5) as one of them or a specimen of it, and it does mention a whole lot of different types of this world/archetype of world. So Necronomicon, a Persona who's only active in a world that it's not mentioned there, can't do so.

We accept that all versions of Shadows, Demons, and Personas are functionally identical as per this CRT. The Megami Tensei wiki is an incredibly dubious source that is extremely questionable (notice how there aren't any scans or citations in any of the pages?) and thus should not be used for arguments (or at least heavily held to scrutiny).

He still took some time to do this/took a clear "mental effort" to do so, and her persona being mostly a defensive thing shows clearly to me that it would be just like I described

What? His mask was removed passively as he was charging Shido. There's no "mental effort" of the sort required for doing so, unless you yourself have evidence to back that claim up. Futaba would share this same trait as a fellow Persona user, regardless of the focus of her abilities, so ultimately there's no debunk of my argument whatsoever.

Saga always starts attacking while she haven't been seen doing nothing like this.
The attack would get reflected because it's clearly seen that they have the ability to do so and she wouldn't take the blow freely
Saga is unaffected by his own reflecting move because he resists it.
She then thinks/commands an attack
Saga predicts it and dodges
Saga BFR her
Gg

Again, this scenario would never happen. I could dissect it line-by-line, but I'll just explain it in a general sense: Futaba and Necronomicon would be entirely intangible and invulnerable to beings who cannot attack them on the mental, spiritual, conceptual, and informational levels simultaneously (and even then, they resist having those aspects attacked on a 1-A scale). She's not going to reflect Saga's attacks because Saga's attacks will never connect with her to begin with. Futaba is also a Type 4 Acausal, meaning she resists abilities such as Clairvoyance and Precognition. Furthermore she has experience dealing with precognitive opponents such as Eligor. Your argument isn't even contingent on whether Saga has BFR.

I will in the future, but anyway it's clearly seen on the source provided that it's unapplicable here and I explained it

I'm not going to argue either way here, since it doesn't matter for this match, but I will respond to any potential CRTs.

I ****** up but it was a cool discussion

Hopefully you've become better acquainted with Megami Tensei through this discussion. There are a lot of factors that make the franchise hard to match (especially with upcoming revisions), so please be conscientious of that when creating threads. Peace.