The Gamer tier changes, plus ability additions

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Alright, now that Season 4 - as long as all other three put together - is done, some updates are here to come. Many were added as the season went along, but here are some other things.

TL;DR: Han to 7-A base, High 7-A with Bosmon. Higher with stat amps, Idea Power and with Giant Black Flame Transformation. 5-B environmental destruction with the void.


Base 7-A:
Han Jee-Han's base upscales from 116 gigatons: His INT is 1900, as opposed to Bosmon's 1500 STR. Bosmon was created by a giant golem who can punch with the power of the Tsar Bomba, and one that absolutely obliterated the upper body of the Tsar Bomba golem.


High 7-A with Bosmon: He directly states his power increased five fold, and then went on to proceed to do all of the following:

1. He becomes comparable to (presumably low-class) gods.
2. His body can withstand one trillion mana, while he previously (in his 7-B key) only had a maximum of 1 million.
3. He one-shots someone with 28 million health, despite his own in the 7-B key being able to only take about 10k before reaching half health.
4. He has previously used x5 stat amps so this isn't something widely new to him.
5. He is a reliable source of information, and the fact that Yeonhwa doesn't say that he is wrong is also worth noting.
6. Even with a 10% stat decrease, he could vaporize the "world" tree of Chengong's at level 170 (equal to his own level at 7-B+) with a hexaspell.

So yes, he has a lot of feats at a higher level, the statement is direct, it is made by a reliable source, and it is shown to give a considerable upgrade in power.


Higher with stat amps: He has 500% stat amps, and his "Demigod" stat amps should scale above them. However, I could find no direct proof of this applying over other stat amps, so I would not apply it over Bosmon's amp. In that case, it would only grant extra 500% of Han's base AP at best.


Higher with Idea Power: He has 1 trillion mana that he uses to empower his body, this being so much power that even with Bosmon, he takes continuous damage due to not being able to contain it. As simple as that, really.


Higher with Black Flame Incarnation: Can use all of his Idea Power with no physical harm, can one-shot someone with 28'000'000 HP (he had about 10'000 as a 7-B+), is compared to Geumodo (a faction so strong that they have a full continent in a pocket dimension [which are stated to need power to be maintained]).

 

[DontTalkDT]

I wanna comment on mainly two things.
First the multiplier stat upscaling. As I see it you're saying the stat amps should be superior and hence be another 500% increase on top of the already existing increases, without that multiplier being explicitely stated. That is already questionable as by our multiplier regulation, multipliers have to come from a direct statement instead of being taken from somewhere else.
Then, in my understanding, you are linearly adding up the power of bossmon and Yeonhwa for the fusion stats, which is also something we definitely don't do. We never accepted fused characters to be as strong as the sum of their stats. At least unless there is stronge evidence for that.
And then you want to further upscale to 6-C from unquantified stuff.
Aside from the things already mentioned one must also consider that we demand way stronger evidence for higher multipliers. Since the strongest actual feat is apparently 7-B I think you additionally need much more solid evidence for this level of multiplier stacking than the mere basic reasoning.

The second thing is about the 5-B tier. This needs a huge restriction. The void spell in question could be compared to be functionaly similar to creating a tiny black hole. Even a 1 mm black hole could destroy a planet over time, yet calling someone planet level for creating one would be a stretch.
Similarly this shouldn't just be said to be 5-B via void. IMO it would either need to be something like "5-B over time via the void" or "5-B enviromental destruction" or something. That simply also makes way more sense considered the stats Han has otherwise.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

His skills evolved from previous stat amps. He also has direct statements for another lesser stat amp he had that increased someone's power by 400% which he liked to use as well. Unless his demigod statistic amplifications are inferior to the normal amplifications he has, in which case why even use those, then this should definitely scale. Plus, the 500% amps and these ones are both prepared stat amps. Them being superior to another multiplier doesn't make them unusable, it just means its unknown how much better they are (same reason Goku's super saiyan form is over x20 due to being better than kaioken, despite having no stated multiplier).

For proof of the multiplier... it meets all the criteria.
Multipliers come from direct statements instead of being reasoned from something else: True, both Gaia/Providence and Han claim that they are this strong.
The statements a multiplier is based on must always be reliable: Gaia or the Providence are both the most knowledgeable and reliable beings we know of up to date.
One should also consider which statistic a multiplier applies to: This is specified to us.
For lower multipliers, like things much less than times 100, evidence can take the form of a clear increase in combat strength against priorly equal or superior opponents. For higher multipliers, like times 100 and above, the importance of stronger evidence, such as feats displaying power of a similar magnitude as the value the multiplier points to or the multipliers importance to the plot of the story, and a higher amount of evidence becomes increasingly necessary.: This is met too. Back in season 1, Han absolutely destroyed an enemy comparable to him with a 800% increase, ripping it to small shreds. Later, the 400% increase in magic lets him keep up with a more powerful Yoohwa as well without needing to magic null. When Shin Sun-Il got the 400% increase, he went from being constantly ripped apart to keeping up with and evading the attacks of Twisted Space. Stat amps are never really inconsistent with how much they grant in extra power.
Another thing to keep in mind is that multipliers are not necessarily constant. For example: If a character is twice as fast as another at one point in time, that might not apply at any other point in time. Han's amps are % based, so this is false here.

And the Tsar Bomba is the only directly applicable feat for AP. He still scales to beings whose bodies are entire seas and deserts, and the Tsar Bomba feat was nearly thirty episodes prior to current Han.


You are linearly adding up the power of bossmon and Yeonhwa for the fusion stats, which is also something we definitely don't do
We most definitely do, look at Steven Universe of the top of my head. While some characters blatantly don't do this (like dragon ball), there is no rule against it, and I'm having a lot of difficulty finding a logical reason why something like that would exist.


The second thing is about the 5-B tier. This needs a huge restriction. The void spell in question could be compared to be functionaly similar to creating a tiny black hole. Even a 1 mm black hole could destroy a planet over time, yet calling someone planet level for creating one would be a stretch.
Similarly this shouldn't just be said to be 5-B via void. IMO it would either need to be something like "5-B over time via the void" or "5-B enviromental destruction" or something. That simply also makes way more sense considered the stats Han has otherwise.
Firstly, no, creating a "tiny" black hole that has the mass of the earth would still be 5-B, and black holes much smaller than that tend to fall apart.
No, the void would grow the size of the planet. He can make mini voids the size of his thumb, or a few meters wide, without much problem. But putting an environmental destruction would be fine, I suppose.

 

[Nepuko]

Seems neat, I support it.

Also....
>Now, his last power upgrade, Giant Black Flame Incarnation, channeling his inner Xianxia cultivator (yes, Han does indeed go full Chinaman).

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT

So what do you think that we should do here?

 

[00potato]

I am fine with most of it but the 6-C upscaling since I am unsure about most math in general and I don’t want to comment.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I guess putting Unknown or much higher for it would be fine? Going from about 50'000 health to one-shotting 28'000'000 million is a rather massive jump, and the dude with that much HP had a whole sentient desert for a body, though I guess it is mostly unquantifiable beyond up scaling massively.

 

[DontTalkDT]

For proof of the multiplier... it meets all the criteria.
Multipliers come from direct statements instead of being reasoned from something else: True, both Gaia/Providence and Han claim that they are this strong.

Not true, if what you explained above is the reasoning. You literally explained how you reasoned how large the multiplier is from something else. That something else namely being that you assume it to be greater than another multiplier for which you have a direct statement for how large it is.

One should also consider which statistic a multiplier applies to: This is specified to us.

Is it specified whether the multiplier is on top of the already multiplied stats or the base stats?

For lower multipliers, like things much less than times 100, evidence can take the form of a clear increase in combat strength against priorly equal or superior opponents. For higher multipliers, like times 100 and above, the importance of stronger evidence, such as feats displaying power of a similar magnitude as the value the multiplier points to or the multipliers importance to the plot of the story, and a higher amount of evidence becomes increasingly necessary.: This is met too. Back in season 1, Han absolutely destroyed an enemy comparable to him with a 800% increase, ripping it to small shreds. Later, the 400% increase in magic lets him keep up with a more powerful Yoohwa as well without needing to magic null. When Shin Sun-Il got the 400% increase, he went from being constantly ripped apart to keeping up with and evading the attacks of Twisted Space. Stat amps are never really inconsistent with how much they grant in extra power.

The arguments you make here are all for other multipliers in my understanding. Multipliers that have clearer statements.

We most definitely do, look at Steven Universe of the top of my head. While some characters blatantly don't do this (like dragon ball), there is no rule against it, and I'm having a lot of difficulty finding a logical reason why something like that would exist.

IIRC I have seen various debates were we don't. And there are good reasons to it. Say there are two people, each of which can roll a giant bolder at 70% of their maximum running speed. Do you think if the two work together they could roll the bolder at 140% of their maximum running speed? Obviously not, as their cooperation might increase their pushing strength, but doesn't let them run fast enough to actually pull it off.

There are various reasons of that kind in most fusions. The fusions total muscle mass is usually less than the sum of the fused entites muscle mass, so it would be natural that their strength isn't the sum either. For magic there are similar equivalents. While the mana pool is likely to add up, the same isn't true for the amount of mana that can at once be drawn from the mana pool. In the Fate franchise it would be that the mana circuits don't necessarily add up. In The Gamer it's the thing that Intelligence wouldn't necessarily end up linearly. Making two mathematicians work on the same excercise doesn't mean that they will solve it in half the time, as when they would do it alone. It would probably speed the process up, but not necessarily half the time. Similarly that those with lesser intelligence stats would contribute to Han's intelligence as if their abilities just were added up is pure speculation.

Firstly, no, creating a "tiny" black hole that has the mass of the earth would still be 5-B, and black holes much smaller than that tend to fall apart.
No, the void would grow the size of the planet. He can make mini voids the size of his thumb, or a few meters wide, without much problem. But putting an environmental destruction would be fine, I suppose.

A 1mm black hole doesn't have the mass of the earth, though, but only 11% of it. So it would not be 5-B, but less. The lifetime of said black hole would be 8.13589E47 years, so it would definitely eventually consume earth regardless.

Anyway, that's only a metaphor. In any case, point is they can't really be said to "have" 5-B power in the beginning. They have hax and can grow to 5-B power, but their starting "power" (as far as one can measure such a thing) wouldn't be 5-B. If you want to list it as environmental destruction instead that's fine with me, though. Reflects that the void things don't really have attack power in the common sense of AP, but are more hax.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT

So what do you think that we should do here?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

This is a superior version of a skill he previously had. The same way his elemental summoning and his observe evolved, so did his statistic amplifications. It would be inane for him to use a statistic amplification that is weaker than what he has been shown to have, especially with a prepared spell being superior to his base spells. Even on the fly without preparation he could casually throw out 400% increases whenever he wanted back when he was 7-C.

Again, look at super saiyan. Hell, here more specifically, the power is a plain evolution of the one I have the scan for, not even unrelated to it. Same way "adamantite skin" is the evolution of "copper skin", "demigod's strength" is the evolution of "giant's strength".


The fusion with Bosmon increased his base stats. But yes, it was shown to apply post stat amps from other items like the Sword of Dan.


I just don't get why you are acting like this is a massive assumption on my part that this multiplier is at least equal to its lesser version. Again, this is not a different and unrelated ability. This is an evolved version of it gained thanks to leveling the skill up and absorbing superior versions of it.


Han Jee-Han literally states their strength added up and doubled his own, and yes, he can use increases in mana linearly., both Yoohwa Shin and Han Jee-Han had shown the ability to do that. The only possible limitation is the body being unable to whistand all the power, which Han became mostly immune to and only showed the slightest care for it when he pondered using a billion mana as opposed to his hundred thousand tops.


And, the starting power of a spell doesn't mean it can't be rated 5-B. Look at gluttony for Rimuru, or really any skill or ability that builds up to higher levels of Ap.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Also, for fusionism, it was shown in-verse that power stacks. It's how a bunch of 7-C golems managed to punch with the power of a Tsar Bomba.

The very same ability that fused those golems is the one Han used to fuse with it.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

While I'm willing to argue the whole fusionism thing since the kiloton golems fusing to make a megaton attack is rather good proof, and assuming that his stat amps got weaker or completely different in mechanics by evolving is something I really disagree with, and we certainly use multiplier logic for less related things like kaioken and super saiyan, can I apply the other things?

He is still at least 7-A by fusing with Bosmon since there is no way that he'd be weaker than the original golem, and he claimed to have grown over twice in power.

He is still able to use his 400% and 500% stat amps both, so he'd still scale to at least 7-A+ with those, at most you'd argue that they aren't his passively applied amps in combat.

5-B environmental destruction void was agreed on, I think.

And the rest of the abilities weren't contested, right?

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT

Your further input would be appreciated here.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Bossmon and golem stuff is probably fine aside from the fusion thing.
Yeonhwa is also ok.

---

Abilities: I think the providence thing is just a maybe for now? Anyway, one also should keep in mind that blessings don't necessarily are as strong as the being that provides it, so the relevance is limited. (was providence confirmed as universe creator? So many details I don't remember from casual reading...)

I remember him demonstrating some magic null very long ago. Skill null I don't remember. Scans?

I see scans for the curses (though I think we don't really know the details of what is needed to use them, which might be noteworthy), but don't see scans for the resistance. (I swear I read the manwha, I'm just really not keeping tabs on everything)

The Depths on Time on thought scan tells me exactly nothing... He probably can, but for the protocoll, I'm still gonna ask which chapter that is. Nobody shall say I don't check CRT'S properly...

Sun spell is ok. Wouldn't go with the multiplier on that alone.

I'm sceptical about the magic inside power null thing. IIRC that was in regards to Yeonhwa, right? Her power null is by eroding stuff with her liquid, meaning that by constructing the magic inside his body Han basically removes it from the AoE of the powernull. Anyone else could do the same, just as long as they can keep the liquid out of the body. I don't think we can say that gamers body would prevent a power null from working if it doesn't require for a physical substance to enter the body (which is most powernull). I think at best one could list this as limited unconventional resistance, as it's basically resistance via distance.
I can say that Ariel and Kumoko actually use the exact same technique against certain power null in the verse that doesn't extend to the bodies inside and I have personally decided to not list it as resistance at all.
If you list it while mentioning the circumstances it is of course fine, though.

Should be limited precognition as the skill itself says it's "under limitations".

Not sure if he can summon Ba'al. Or maybe that's the wrong way to put it: Maybe he could call him, but I have my doubts that he could make Ba'al would obey him. Doing that could massively backfire and reminds me of the case with the Zen'ō button... anyways, summoning demons is fine in itself.

Sharing with the loli witch is ok.

Saying a mind technique has reality warping as the mechanism is probably somewhat ok. I went the scans of the stuff Han can do with his, though.

I think I remember the create + repair stuff, so that's fine.

Don't remember the body multiplication gag. Scans or chapter, please.

The gaining rights thing is ok... though I have no idea which ability that would even be...

---

Arc Company Stuff: Not sure about Arc Company > Tree. Like, not all levels of "worship" are necessary same effective and people are Korean 100% of the day, while not everyone plays the game 24/7. And who knows which other miraculous abilities that tree has. IIRC it was relatively legendary.
I somewhat doubt Arc is comparable to Harem King and Amaterasu thing is speculation. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't exploding Korea just Low 6-B? I guess if you take the percentage into account, but still...
Personally I think possibly 6-B is more appropriate.

---

Scans on the Dragoniak stuff?

---

I'm going to get back to the multiplier and fusionism stuff tomorrow. I have invested over an hour on this reply as is... even if it might not look like it.

 

[DontTalkDT]

@DontTalkDT

So what do you think that we should do here?

I think we're still debating, so it's too soon to make a call on what to do.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Abilities: I think the providence thing is just a maybe for now? Anyway, one also should keep in mind that blessings don't necessarily are as strong as the being that provides it, so the relevance is limited. (was providence confirmed as universe creator? So many details I don't remember from casual reading...)
Yes, the season ending was pretty much Gaia's existence being brought into question and Han and Yeonhwa wondering if they should believe it. Its an intended mystery, though the powers seem to be working the same way regardless (and a high 3-A's causality manip isn't better than a 5-Bs by default either, so its not like it upgrades anything).


I remember him demonstrating some magic null very long ago. Skill null I don't remember. Scans?
He did it against the purple haired lady. He calls it skill restriction, so the mechanics of it aren't very specific. He also needs the energy of his sorcerer tower to do it.

I see scans for the curses (though I think we don't really know the details of what is needed to use them, which might be noteworthy), but don't see scans for the resistance. (I swear I read the manwha, I'm just really not keeping tabs on everything)
I agree on noting that only the name of the skills was given. As for resistance, there is for one the fact that Han claims that black flame incarantion is just outright immune to magic (seems too hyperbolic to me, but it should at least apply to the stuff he could do back then in his High 7-C key), plus his own passive resistance to it, but he also gets to have Yeonhwa as a protective shell, with Yeonhwa being explicitly immune as well (flames do spring up due to mana conflict, however).

The Depths on Time on thought scan tells me exactly nothing... He probably can, but for the protocol, I'm still gonna ask which chapter that is. Nobody shall say I don't check CRT'S properly...
I... forgot where that is. I mean, the point of the scan is that the thought bubble is, well, a thought bubble and not something he says out loud. You do get to see him use temporal dominion (or Temporary Master of Time, as they decided to TL it) on thought in chapter 152, season 4 though.

Sun spell is ok. Wouldn't go with the multiplier on that alone.
Stat amp multipliers and combo spell ones are different things. I absolutely agree that I would not believe Han can have an attack 10^10 times stronger than his base unless he shows it. Mostly range and potency of time manip was shown to be directly multiplied here.

Not sure if he can summon Ba'al. Or maybe that's the wrong way to put it: Maybe he could call him, but I have my doubts that he could make Ba'al would obey him. Doing that could massively backfire and reminds me of the case with the Zen'ō button... anyways, summoning demons is fine in itself.
Oh, I'm sure as hell Ba'al wouldn't really obey him. He liked Han generally, but still sees him as weak and all and probably wants his soul or a contract from him.

Saying a mind technique has reality warping as the mechanism is probably somewhat ok. I went the scans of the stuff Han can do with his, though.
Here .

Don't remember the body multiplication gag. Scans or chapter, please.
Season 4, 82

The gaining rights thing is ok... though I have no idea which ability that would even be...
None of its own. Just a mention that with prep he could potentially get the Sword of Dan.


Arc Company Stuff: Not sure about Arc Company > Tree. Like, not all levels of "worship" are necessary same effective and people are Korean 100% of the day, while not everyone plays the game 24/7. And who knows which other miraculous abilities that tree has. IIRC it was relatively legendary.
I somewhat doubt Arc is comparable to Harem King and Amaterasu thing is speculation. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't exploding Korea just Low 6-B? I guess if you take the percentage into account, but still...
Personally I think possibly 6-B is more appropriate.

Im not too sure how much idea power the tree rakes from Koreans, either. I mean, it's not that much, since Han and a whole lot of other people can actively harvest it as a source of energy.

For Amaterasu, you mean him scaling to the corpse is speculation? I suppose I'd agree to that, though him being weaker than the 0.1% power corpse of her would still be rather strange.

And Korea is about a 1000 kilometers wide, so it would be at the very edge of the radius of explosion needed to get 6-B, and the planetoid is larger than Korea by enough to cover those few tens of kilometers.

But I am fine with a possibly. He is still defnintly at least 7-A,because level 990 and tanking attacks from Dan-Ül are both impressive things that are at the very least equal to Han.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

For Dragoniak, its stats have a scan on its profile, and I'm guessing you don't really need a scan for it not being the newest monster.

 

[Antvasima]

What DontTalkDT accepts can probably be applied in any case.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I have done so for most characters.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Zencha9]

asking a question why is The President's Regeneration "At least Low-Godly, likely Mid-Godly" ? Regenerating from erasure is straight up Mid-Godly

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

asking a question why is The President's Regeneration "At least Low-Godly, likely Mid-Godly" ? Regenerating from erasure is straight up Mid-Godly

It is unclear if it only worked due to other employees still existing.

 

[Ionliosite]

Power null: what's the proof to this? The scan you linked doesn't work

Curse resistances: agree with this, pretty clear cut.

Depths of Time: Proof of temporal dominion being 10 billion times? The scan linked doesn't say anything like that

Decaspells: Proof on the 10^10x amp? It has no scan on the OP, and even then, this is a extremely high multiplier that very likely doesn't follow our standards stated on the Multipliers' page

Gamer's Body: The scan doesn't say anything like it's claimed on the OP, so further proof would be needed.

Intuition: This barely qualifies as precognition, but is ok.

72 devils: A scan of this would be needed

Eternal youth: Also needs a scan

Single Heavenly Fist: Agree with reality warping, the rest needs proof.

Repair objects: Needs a scan although he already has creation on his profile, so the other part is ok.

Copies of his body: This looks fine, but a scan would be nice.

I also agree with DT on the points regarding the other multipliers.

 

[Antvasima]

Ionliosite:

Thank you for helping out. You seem to make sense.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

For the copies, I said the chapter, so you may check it there if you wish. I'll search upthe eternal youth later. And, nothing contradicts the multiplier. It's done through the manipulation of time, it's effects are explained from s thrustworthy source, and the enemy becomes seemingly stationary from Han's perspective.

For Gamer's Body not retaining wounds, that's already on the profile, but I'll get it later.

And the only point against Han's current multiplier is that it's not the exact same as the one he used before, so there is no proof it is as strong. Otherwise, the increase in power is stated by both a nigh-omniscient being and simplified from percentage to "quadruples my power" by Han, and it allowed for obvious increases in power against opponents they were previously equal to.

 

[Antvasima]

Your image is not shown. Here is how you do it:

https://vsbattles.com/help/bb-codes/

 

[Ionliosite]

Ok, saw the copies playing, so I agree with that one as well. I'll wait for the eternal youth one then. If you read the multiplier page, it says that the higher the multiplier is above 100x, the more proof you need for it, so such a high multiplier like 10 billion times would need an immense amount of proof. And considering how I remember the debate to remove Mori Jin's 250.000x multiplier because just being said a couple of times and stomping many people wasn't enough for such a high multiplier, I would seriously ask for a lot more proof for an even higher one.

Ok, take your time to prove it.

Well, power null, summoning and breaking defenses are ok going for the scans. However, the scan on the Heavenly Fist doesn't mention that it also would bypass his own abilities, so that would need further proof. Also, unrelated, but it seems the ability is limited by the amount of mana Han has, so that should also be noted in the profile.

I will go to sleep, I'll reply again tomorrow.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Well, for the multiplier first.

It is not multiplying any of his stats (vsbattles definition of stats, I mean) but manipulating time itself. He isn't becoming physically faster, which is why he gets no extra kinetic energy or anything like that, but his time is simply flowing relatively faster to the real world's perspective.

This is not a "I'm ten billion times faster now", its explained in depth by one of the best sorcerers to be "I apply time dilation ten times over, making my time relatively faster than that if the real world, with a 10'000'000'000 difference specifically", with him then showcasing that he is indeed far faster. The fact that no contradictions exist and that an in-depth explanation is given for the abilities mechanics work should be enough proof in this case.

For the negating his own skills, it is a bit complicated, but a) his magic itself can't defy the laws of the world (though some skills can, such as Transcendental Manufacturing creating something out of nothing), and b) the chick (I think it was a girl at least) can use a mind technique that has a similar examination (can't miss or can't be blocked) and he was unable to use his abilities to do either, being forced to simply tank the attacks.

I would rephrase that to be more specific though, since it wouldn't be able to (presumably) defy things like his Gamer's Body or to resist Fool's Act.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

To keep it more palatable, I was planning to make Han Jee-Han's newer key be in its own profile. Would there be any problems with that?

 

[00potato]

That should work. Keeping things easy to read should be the priority. Overly bloated profiles are more trouble then benefit.

 

[Antvasima]

I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion. Alternately, a staff member can use the @Username notification system.

 

[Ionliosite]

Well, for the multiplier first.

It is not multiplying any of his stats (vsbattles definition of stats, I mean) but manipulating time itself. He isn't becoming physically faster, which is why he gets no extra kinetic energy or anything like that, but his time is simply flowing relatively faster to the real world's perspective.

This is not a "I'm ten billion times faster now", its explained in depth by one of the best sorcerers to be "I apply time dilation ten times over, making my time relatively faster than that if the real world, with a 10'000'000'000 difference specifically", with him then showcasing that he is indeed far faster. The fact that no contradictions exist and that an in-depth explanation is given for the abilities mechanics work should be enough proof in this case.

For the negating his own skills, it is a bit complicated, but a) his magic itself can't defy the laws of the world (though some skills can, such as Transcendental Manufacturing creating something out of nothing), and b) the chick (I think it was a girl at least) can use a mind technique that has a similar examination (can't miss or can't be blocked) and he was unable to use his abilities to do either, being forced to simply tank the attacks.

I would rephrase that to be more specific though, since it wouldn't be able to (presumably) defy things like his Gamer's Body or to resist Fool's Act.

Such a ridiculously high multiplier would need more evidence, as the Multiplier's page explains, the higher the number is above 100, the bigger the amount of evidence needed, and ten billion is VERY far above 100.

That doesn't mean it negates his own abilities, that would need proof, like a direct statement or a feat of that happening.

Now, for the void, what's the proof of it being void manip? Because so far it just looks like a pseudo-black hole.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I'm sorry, but that's not an argument. The multiplier meets all criteria, it's a "multiplier" in name only since it just manipulates time (from a dude that can stop time) and the most knowledgable person in the verse claims it. The "more proof" falls under the explanation of its mechanics and the "my time is relative to the real world's", on top of meeting the requirements.

Feel free to ask a mod to comment, but there is no reason to disregard this feat.


A mind technique negated his abilities though. The fight with Jang was about one being able to casually nullify all of his magic and the other disregarding his defences due to their mind techniques.


And, the fact that it's called emptiness itself that devours all existence around it, including space itself.

 

[Ionliosite]

I'm sorry, but that's not an argument. The multiplier meets all criteria, it's a "multiplier" in name only since it just manipulates time (from a dude that can stop time) and the most knowledgable person in the verse claims it. The "more proof" falls under the explanation of its mechanics and the "my time is relative to the real world's", on top of meeting the requirements.

Feel free to ask a mod to comment, but there is no reason to disregard this feat.


A mind technique negated his abilities though. The fight with Jang was about one being able to casually nullify all of his magic and the other disregarding his defences due to their mind techniques.


And, the fact that it's called emptiness itself that devours all existence around it, including space itself.

Of course, I'll go and do it.

That a mind ability negated his abilities doesn't mean his own mind ability can negate his own defenses.

I guess void manip is ok with that scan.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

So, a mind technique that breaks defenses by in-verse description can't scale to mind technique that breaks defences by in-verse description, highlighting the "break" aspect?

 

[Ionliosite]

Unless said mind defenses are explicity the same, yes.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Mind defenses..? If you mean attacks, then I'll have to ask for a reason beyond "yes".
The method of the attacks is achieved through bending the laws of reality for both. Han Jee-Han is superior in every way to the two siblings. His mind technique has shown to ignore non-physical defenses like spatially warping someone away before they hit you, too.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Alright, some new stuff now that I got to read over 99% of the webtoon. I'm having some problems with my PC, so I'll be stuck giving scans with my phone. Feel free to ask whichever you want a scan for.

Han Jee-Han's power post fusing with Bosmon and Yeonhwa has a statements actually, no need for any personal headcanons about fusionism, and its "My power grew close to five times"!
So, for upcoming arguments about how it has to be actually consistent:
He becomes comparable to (presumably low-class) gods.
His body can withstand one trillion mana, while he previously (in his 7-B key) only had a maximum of 1 million.
He one-shots someone with 28 million health, despite his own in the 7-B key being able to only take about 10k before reaching half health.
He has previously used x5 stat amps so this isn't something widely new to him.
He is a reliable source of information, and the fact that Yeonhwa doesn't say that he is wrong is also worth noting.
Even with a 10% stat decrease, he could vaporize the "world" tree of Chenggong's at level 170 (equal to his own level at 7-B) with a hexaspell.

Further for his Black Flame Incarnation:
It, too, is a Mind Technique, with its specialty being immunity to magic. This is to the point that Han claims (and shows by actually resisting one) that no artifact in the world could truly affect it.
He can use all of his mana, again, a trillion, without any physical harm.
With the Black Flame Incarnation, he is comparable in power to Geumodo, who are the kind of ancient civilizations that can maintain whole continents in pocket realities, Han (post Hell Rescue) compares the distance between himself and Geomodo (and other top dogs) to a firefly and the sun whereas his Black Flame is said to have comparable power to them.


Did get to download these scans before, so here's the Geumodo stuff and Han Jee-Han's type 1 (maybe should put it as type 8?) is as seen below.

For the deca-spell being x10 billion, full powered deca-spells can change the whole world. Though Han's own deca-spells are incomplete, this does help with the massive speed boost.

 

[Nepuko]

Seems neat. Nice job ricsi.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I updated the OP for the peeps Ion called over.