The Elder Scrolls 7-B downgrade

[Keeweed]

Currently the low 7-B characters scale to making storms. However, the low 7-B rating doesn’t have any reason to scale physically to anyone. It is preformed with magic and magic in the elder scrolls consistently is shown to be better than the user’s physical stats (apprentice mages accidentally obliterate themselves so often that it had been stated to be a massive problem). Dragons can also make storms with shouts, but shouts are also stronger than the user physically. Ulfric completely obliterated a man with the thu’um, but he was going to be executed by a regular human headsmen.

When it comes to the replacement tiers. The current low 7-Bs should still be stronger than most master mages spells (or in the Dovahkiin’s case can become a master mage themselves).

Edit: 1) Sorry about forgetting to give this thread tags, I accidentally posted it while I was typing it out and rushed to fix it. 2) I found more support for the storms being environmental destruction. The shout clear skies has the power to instantly disperse any storm, but when you hit opponents with it the shout does no physical damage. If the shout the clears the storms is clearly environmental destruction that means the shout that summons them should be environmental destruction too.

 

[Steve_Rogers1]

The Dovahkiin would still scale via harming dragons that are able to withstand shouts. They don't have shouts themselves at that point and are not explicitly stated to be a mage. They could very well be a warrior and still be able to kill a dragon.

 

[Keeweed]

Shouts don’t scale physically to many of the characters like Ulfric, so there isn’t a reason shouts should scale physically to dragons. Especially the storm call shout since that has nothing physically to do with the user. Heck clear skies, which has to power to disperse these storms, does no physical damage to opponents.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Ulfric completely obliterated a man with the thu’um, but he was going to be executed by a regular human headsmen.

Doesn't Ulfric debunk that statement though?

Not entirely true, though not entirely false either. Any Nord can learn the Way of the Voice by studying with the Greybeards, given enough ambition and dedication. My shouting Torygg to the ground proved he had neither. However, it was my sword piercing his heart that killed him.

People just exaggerate the claim to him shouting the King apart.

 

[Keeweed]

Ulfric was the one lying. You can meet Torygg’s soul and he tells you Ulfric obliterated him with the thu’um

 

[Qawsedf234]

Torygg said this

When Ulfric Stormcloak, with savage Shout, sent me here, my sole regret was fair Elisif, left forlorn and weeping. I faced him fearlessly - my fate inescapable, yet my honor is unstained - can Ulfric say the same?

But it also isn't confirmed by him that he was shouted to pieces. Just that a shout killed him. Why would Ulfric lie about his own honor duel directly to the Dragonborn? He was one to perform the act and everyone else is here say in a franchise where that's a notable thing.

 

[Keeweed]

Because he would look bad in front of his entire army and completely ruin his cause. The guy who died to the action said the shout killed him. Meanwhile the guy who did it said he stabbed him. Considering the guy who died to it is in the afterlife in the middle of nowhere he has zero reasons to lie. While Ulfric has many, because if he didn’t kill the king in fair combat his claim to Skyrim falls apart.

Plus that isn’t the only example of shouts not scaling physically. Clear Skies can instantly disperse any storm, yet it doesn’t hurt anyone hit by it. So the dispersing of the storms is clearly environmental destruction, no reason why the creation also shouldn’t be.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I guess even ignoring that we still have statements about his shout killing people when he took back the Reach.

 

[KongKing23]

Manipulation of weathers usually requires a group effort. Not all master mages can do that alone. Dragons should be easily above almost all mortals with an exception of few individuals.

Dovahkiin is clearly above all master mages through Thu'um alone. So 7-B rank should remain.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Also characters do get a tier via spells/magic

Like for example

"Xyz physically, tier xyz with magic (can call storms)"

 

[Lapsad]

He mean the shout like storm call aren't make physically hurt on people

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

The suggested idea seems to be that since the storm is created through reality warping that can be stronger than your body (and is there a particular reason why all shouts should be as strong as one another? Mechanically, it's reality warping).

The fact that ages can do it though is notable. I do have to wonder if early game Dovah should scale to that. I suppose it could be wrong, but the first dragon you fight is scripted to not kill most of your Whiterun helpers, and you are expected to do it little after fighting a Draugr Overlord.

Was there a part in the lore that puts that dragon beyond really really good mages?

 

[KongKing23]

The suggested idea seems to be that since the storm is created through reality warping that can be stronger than your body (and is there a particular reason why all shouts should be as strong as one another? Mechanically, it's reality warping).

The fact that ages can do it though is notable. I do have to wonder if early game Dovah should scale to that. I suppose it could be wrong, but the first dragon you fight is scripted to not kill most of your Whiterun helpers, and you are expected to do it little after fighting a Draugr Overlord.

Was there a part in the lore that puts that dragon beyond really really good mages?

I don’t think dragons are all above exceptional individuals like Mannimarco or Shalidor. However, it’s the Thu’um that overpowered the dragons since its ability is beyond normal Magic. It can create anything out of nothing and fundamentally change laws of universes in the most basic level.

There was a mook dragon in ESO who used Thu’um to create a disease that can affect spirits. He corrupted a powerful changeling named Selene. If successful, he could remake dimensions behind the wood within Valenwood in his image. Essentially becoming a cosmic minor deity with obscure level of hax. Thu’um is an OP ability.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Which does not help with what I said.

The first dragon that "early" Dragonborn fights is not exactly impressive in-game and you beat it without any thu'um, and it only uses fire breath with several whiterun guards being scripted to survive.

So, is there any reason that dragon, which the Dovahkiin's first key scales to, would be beyond such mages?

 

[Keeweed]

@Kong

None of that has to do with what this thread is about. Yes the thu’um has hax, but that’s the problem with the ap, it is done in a way that is environmental destruction. You can’t hit anything with storm call, and when you can hit people with shouts that change the weather it can’t physically hurt them.

(This to directed to everyone)

Last I checked the person who performs the town level feat master mages scale to, is complete fodder in comparison to most powerful (like around master mage) magical beings. The dragons of Skyrim are stated to be a massive threat to practically everyone (the exceptions being people practically completely unrelated to Skyrim like the Ebony Warrior and such)

And while the feat that places them at 7-C is pocket realm creation, that is actually stated in the elder scrolls to directly scale to people. A daedra was stated to be capable of destroying half a country because his pocket dimension became that big (note the destruction statement was referring to an actual country, not the pocket realm). Unlike the storms, which even if you hit a person point blank with the power to disperse storms it doesn’t hurt them.

The guards not dying to the dragon is 100% an outlier. That would make the dragon 9-C, through sheer size alone (dragons are stated to be faster than anything the guard has ever seen, so the giant kinetic energy calc would apply here) the guards should be instantly one shot.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I mean more the darkelf with matching bow whose name I can't remember, since we know the guards were already decimated earlier on.

 

[Keeweed]

Last i checked she, in canon, didn’t do much, if anything to the dragon. But assuming she did something to the dragon that says something about her, not the dragon. Considering all her fellow guards were getting slaughtered based off the previous statements that means she would be the except, not that the dragon was weak.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I am not sayin git is fodder or that weak. But I doubt it is on the level of the kinds of wizards who can summon storms at will.

 

[Keeweed]

I am not sayin git is fodder or that weak. But I doubt it is on the level of the kinds of wizards who can summon storms at will.

The point of this thread is that the storms are environmental destruction so even the wizards themselves aren’t on par with that. It would more be if she is on par with master mages. Though I’m pretty sure her doing anything to the dragon would be an outlier for her (I said earlier “if she truly scaled to the dragon” I don’t personally think she does). Also she doesn’t do anything else in the story so she doesn’t have an anti feat that would downgrade the dragon. She shouldn’t scale to master mages, but she shouldn’t scale to literally anyone. She shows up for half a second, possibly helps fight the dragon (how much help she did is completely unknown and in canon the Dovahkiin is the one credited to killing the dragon), and never does anything else. That says way more about her in some shape or form then it does the dragon.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Which does not help with what I said.

The first dragon that "early" Dragonborn fights is not exactly impressive in-game and you beat it without any thu'um, and it only uses fire breath with several whiterun guards being scripted to survive.

So, is there any reason that dragon, which the Dovahkiin's first key scales to, would be beyond such mages?

"in-game" exactly

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

"in-game" exactly

And out of game, it is still defeated without the use of the thu'um. And since we're taking it as early game, then without any expert level magic or greatly enhanced weaponry, either.

 

[Keeweed]

The beginning game doesn’t mean they lack enhanced weapons or magic. Nothing stops you from going on side quest before the main quest, and due to prisoner metaphysics the Dovahkiin would have gone on any quest he could have gone on before fighting the first dragon.

Should point out two quest later (which takes 5 to 10 minutes in real life) you already are high 6-A, so the Dovahkiin defeating the dragon without enhanced equipment (despite their being zero reason for him not the have enchanted equipment, last I checked the Dovahkiin has a few daedric artifacts in his low 7-B key) definitely says a lot more about the Dovahkiin then the dragon. The dark elf fighting them is both an outlier and barely touched upon in lore. The Dovahkiin is the one credited with the kill and there isn’t any reason he should be an anti feat.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

But it also isn't confirmed by him that he was shouted to pieces. Just that a shout killed him. Why would Ulfric lie about his own honor duel directly to the Dragonborn? He was one to perform the act and everyone else is here say in a franchise where that's a notable thing.

Torygg's wife and another woman who were also at the place confirm it.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

Mirmulnir should definitely scale to mages that can summons storms. It was literally stated on the High Hrothgar stones that during the Dragon War, humans was getting slaughtered by the dragons before they learnt the thu'um from Paarthurnax. This should include the Nords shamans who can summons storms.

"Emblem III"

"The fledgling spirits of Men were strong in Old
Times"

"Unafraid to war with Dragons and their Voices"

"But the Dragons only shouted them down and
broke their hearts"

And no, the power of the users's thu'um does, in some way, scales to the physical capabilities of the users. Take the Greybeards for example, they are literally just skinny old men, yet they can easily speak with each other without killing themselves because of their mastery of the thu'um. Heck, the Dovahkiin was able to withstand their greetings after going through their test, the test that was supposed to ascertained their thu'um capabilities. So no, the thu'um does, in some way, scales to the users physically. This is consistent with in-game books that stated dragons casually and often fought each other with the thu'um.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Ultima_Reality and I really should make a Blog about dragons because the way they are portrayed in Skyrim Gameplay really doesn't fit with the lore at all.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Mirmulnir should definitely scales to mages that can summons storms. It was literally stated on the Greybeards stones that during the Dragon War, humans was getting slaughtered by the dragons before they learnt the thu'um from Paarthunax. This should included the Nords shamans who can summons storms.

"Emblem III"

"The fledgling spirits of Men were strong in Old
Times"

"Unafraid to war with Dragons and their Voices"

"But the Dragons only shouted them down and
broke their hearts"

And no, the power of the users's thu'um does, in some way, scales to the physical capabilities of the users. Take the Greybeards for example, they are literally just skinny old men, yet they can easily speak with each other without killing themselves because of their mastery of the thu'um. Heck, the Dovahkiin was able to withstand their greetings after going through their test, the test that is supposed to ascertains their thu'um capabilities. So no, the thu'um does, in some way, scales to the users physically. This is consistent with in-game books that stated dragons casually and often fought each other with the thu'um.

correct me if i am wrong but when u learn a shout "you become that shout"

like the story of the guard that use a shout to cover himself in flames and was not harmed

 

[Waria_Kambang]

correct me if i am wrong but when u learn a shout "you become that shout"

like the story of the guard that use a shout to cover himself in flames and was not harme

Yes, that's true. When someone learn a word of power, they take in the meaning of the word to their soul.

 

[Lapsad]

Mirmulnir should definitely scale to mages that can summons storms. It was literally stated on the High Hrothgar stones that during the Dragon War, humans was getting slaughtered by the dragons before they learnt the thu'um from Paarthurnax. This should include the Nords shamans who can summons storms.

"Emblem III"

"The fledgling spirits of Men were strong in Old
Times"

"Unafraid to war with Dragons and their Voices"

"But the Dragons only shouted them down and
broke their hearts"

And no, the power of the users's thu'um does, in some way, scales to the physical capabilities of the users. Take the Greybeards for example, they are literally just skinny old men, yet they can easily speak with each other without killing themselves because of their mastery of the thu'um. Heck, the Dovahkiin was able to withstand their greetings after going through their test, the test that was supposed to ascertained their thu'um capabilities. So no, the thu'um does, in some way, scales to the users physically. This is consistent with in-game books that stated dragons casually and often fought each other with the thu'um.

Many of voice power can directly scale to physical , the point of this thread just spicefic for storm call and clear sky , we must finding another 7-B scaling

 

[Keeweed]

Mirmulnir should definitely scale to mages that can summons storms. It was literally stated on the High Hrothgar stones that during the Dragon War, humans was getting slaughtered by the dragons before they learnt the thu'um from Paarthurnax. This should include the Nords shamans who can summons storms.

"Emblem III"

"The fledgling spirits of Men were strong in Old
Times"

"Unafraid to war with Dragons and their Voices"

"But the Dragons only shouted them down and
broke their hearts"

And no, the power of the users's thu'um does, in some way, scales to the physical capabilities of the users. Take the Greybeards for example, they are literally just skinny old men, yet they can easily speak with each other without killing themselves because of their mastery of the thu'um. Heck, the Dovahkiin was able to withstand their greetings after going through their test, the test that was supposed to ascertained their thu'um capabilities. So no, the thu'um does, in some way, scales to the users physically. This is consistent with in-game books that stated dragons casually and often fought each other with the thu'um.

But the Dovahkiin survived a shout meant to be physical (they physically shock the planet) and the grey beard are massive exceptions to thu’um users as they are practically the best at it.

When it comes to storm call you can’t physically hit someone with that. Meanwhile clear skies has the power to disperse these storms yet it can’t harm people in anyway.

Shouts are also stated to break the Newton’s laws because it is stated that you can push harder than the world can push back (I’ll go grab the direct quote if needed), so the users of the thu’um don’t need to have durability comparable to their attack power.

“Mirmulnir should definitely scale to mages that can summons storms. It was literally stated on the High Hrothgar stones that during the Dragon War, humans was getting slaughtered by the dragons before they learnt the thu'um from Paarthurnax. This should include the Nords shamans who can summons storms.”

Those storms would be environmental destruction. Mages are stated to be capable of accidentally annihilating themselves with their own spells dozens of time throughout the elder scrolls, so magic clearly doesn’t scale to the power of the user. And magic/shouts like clear skies shows that abilities powerful enough to effect the weather can have no physical effect on opponents.

The Dovahkiin is praised for surviving the gray breads and they are constantly stated to be a great threat due to studying the thu’um so much that they can’t properly talk to people. It is stated to scale to the Dovahkiin, unlike the shouts that revolve around the weather than have the clearest showing of environmental destruction ever.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I don't think clear skies is a good example since the shout was not made to harm but to affect the climate so saying that people are not harm by it is a no brainer since it was not made for that

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Every ESO Dragon can make storms.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Every ESO Dragon can make storms.

I mean they created the shout and its said they call storms so no surprises there

 

[Keeweed]

I don't think clear skies is a good example since the shout was not made to harm but to affect the climate so saying that people are not harm by it is a no brainer since it was not made for that

That’s my point though. Why would dragons creating a storm be a show of power when the dispersal of storms specifically is shown not to be.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

That’s my point though. Why would dragons creating a storm be a show of power when the dispersal of storms specifically is shown not to be.

Cus the storms ***** people over and kills them???.....

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Cus the storms ***** people over and kills them???.....

Unless there's more context than that, that's not how it's supposed to work. Environmental Destruction that hurts people is still Environmental Destruction. Being able to produce say, a tornado, doesn't necessarily mean your everyday attacks, spells, etc. carry the same amount of power as what that tornado is generating, not unless the magic (or whatever) system of the verse openly evidences or dictates such a thing.

That the tornado might be able to say, toss townspeople and their houses around, is irrelevant to that point.

EDIT: Yes, I know "tornadoes" were not mentioned in this thread. It's an analogy, and the same principle applies whether you're talking about tornadoes, rainstorms or whatever else in that vein.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

But the Dovahkiin survived a shout meant to be physical (they physically shock the planet) and the grey beard are massive exceptions to thu’um users as they are practically the best at it.

When it comes to storm call you can’t physically hit someone with that. Meanwhile clear skies has the power to disperse these storms yet it can’t harm people in anyway.

Shouts are also stated to break the Newton’s laws because it is stated that you can push harder than the world can push back (I’ll go grab the direct quote if needed), so the users of the thu’um don’t need to have durability comparable to their attack power.

“Mirmulnir should definitely scale to mages that can summons storms. It was literally stated on the High Hrothgar stones that during the Dragon War, humans was getting slaughtered by the dragons before they learnt the thu'um from Paarthurnax. This should include the Nords shamans who can summons storms.”

Those storms would be environmental destruction. Mages are stated to be capable of accidentally annihilating themselves with their own spells dozens of time throughout the elder scrolls, so magic clearly doesn’t scale to the power of the user. And magic/shouts like clear skies shows that abilities powerful enough to effect the weather can have no physical effect on opponents.

The Dovahkiin is praised for surviving the gray breads and they are constantly stated to be a great threat due to studying the thu’um so much that they can’t properly talk to people. It is stated to scale to the Dovahkiin, unlike the shouts that revolve around the weather than have the clearest showing of environmental destruction ever.

How is that relevant to my points? And how are the Greybeards a massive exception? Jurgen Windcaller tanked and no-sell 17 acolytes shouts after training in the Way of the Voice, the three Nord heroes was able to fight against Alduin after learning the thu'um, and dragons practically fought against each other using their thu'um all the time. So no, Greybeards are not an exception. It is Ulfric who is an exception, since he was only a Greybeards apprentice and doesn't have much mastery of the thu'um.

Yeah, but not to the point where the physical capabilities of the thu'um users are outclassed to such a degree.

I'm not saying that mages are 7-B physically, all I'm saying is that both Mirmulnir and the Dovahkiin should stay at 7-B since they should scales above these mages. I mean, sure you can say that this storm spell is environmental destruction, but that spell is still powered by their mana. Magic is just warping reality according to the user's will. The user still need a sufficient mana that determine the power of the spell to cast them. Those mages can easily use the same amount of power but in different forms (spells) yet they still got ****** over by your average dragons before they learn the thu'um. The same can be said about the thu'um. You can use it in a variety of ways to alter reality, but the potency should be roughly the same. You wouldn't say that a firebolt/unrelenting force from an apprentice is as powerful as a firebolt/unrelenting force from an archmage/Greybeards or that a clear skies from Ulfric can disperse a storm call from end-game Dovahkiin, no?

 

[Keeweed]

“Those mages can easily use the same amount of power but in different forms (spells)”

Why should we assume their other spells are comparable to the magic that summoned storms. When the Dovahkiin has a shout powerful enough to disperse storms and it doesn’t work on anything else. If the storms are environmental destruction to the mages that means they can’t put that power anywhere else, that’s the entire point of environmental destruction. Since the shout that clears the storms is the most clear cut example of environmental destruction out there, and you never physically attack anything with storm call. Why would we assume storm call isn’t environmental destruction when its fellow weather controlling shout is environmental destruction.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

When the Dovahkiin has a shout powerful enough to disperse storms and it doesn’t work on anything else.

[...]

Since the shout that clears the storms is the most clear cut example of environmental destruction out there, and you never physically attack anything with storm call.

These two details seem to be the most important. If the two spells have the specific properties of creating and dispersing storms rather than being extra applications of some other power, and there's no way to repurpose them into direct attacks, then I don't see why they would scale to physicals. It would be the equivalent of making a person 2-C based on an ability that separates or combines multiple realities when the caveat is that the power in question can only do that.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree that dragon shouts are more hax specially the cloud dispersal one, although I am fine with calculating the storm call.

However, dragons in ESO can summon storms without using Storm Call. They do it in their boss fights.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

i say this

"Human level physically, Small City level with magic ( can summon massive storms )