Taskmaster 8-C Upgrade.

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

So right now we have Taskmaster as "9-B. Varies from 8-C to High 8-C with equipment". This rating implies that it is Taskmaster's equipment, not his own physical stats, that allows him to fight against 8-C threats.

In this thread, however, I would like to posit that his physical stats should, logically, be at this level too.

Taskmaster is almost ALWAYS portrayed as a threat to Captain America. And has been since his initial debut.

• His first appearance showcases him casually blocking Captain America's shield with his own, before staggering him with a blow with his bow and shield. In the same issue, it's directly stated He throws his shield as strong as America's (note that while this is listed as a feat for his equipment on his profile, this would, logically, scale to his physical strength)

[Avengers #196]

• Taskmaster is strong enough to easily overwhelm Captain America without his shield. Both with his ranged explosives and just by physically overwhelming him with his own shield.

[Captain America (1998) #44]

• Captain America has gone on record saying Taskmaster is one of the most deadliest men alive. While the Captain WAS poisoned during this time, it should not affect his judgment of Taskmaster's overall threat level.

[Captain America (2018) #5]

• Taskmaster has gone on record to state that he's made a career out of fighting Captain America, implying they fight frequently.

[Moon Knight Vol. 9 #14]

• Captain America has stated Taskmaster is "as A list as they come", implying he should at least be a similar threat level as the rest of Captain America's rogue gallery.

[Spider-Boy (2023) #2]

Some extra things:

Taskmaster has shown he can easily damage Luara and is physically strong enough to stop her blows with a single hand, only losing the upper hand after she stabs him with her claws.

[All-New Wolverine #3]

Harms Bucky, just by chucking his sword at him.

[Avengers: The Initiative #34]

In conclusion, while Taskmaster's performances throughout the comics vary wildly, he is consistently one of Captain America's most dangerous rogues, and is capable of standing on somewhat even ground with him. I would like his new tiering to be the following.

"8-C. Varies, up to High 8-C with equipment. Or something to that effect.

 

[DaReaperMan]

What about this?

 

[Tomfer]

Before anyone asks this: "Does that mean an upgrade for characters like Daredevil, Punisher or Deadpool?"

Answer is no.... kinda. Taskmaster fought pratically every single street level character in the whole verse, and characters like Daredevil can bypass huge AP differences via sheer skill alone, he's just THAT guy when it comes to that. In Taskmaster's AP justification it says that Daredevil needed skill to defeat him, so there's that.

But there's a one or two characters that can get an upgrade if Taskmaster gets accepted...

Also, I think the Varies tier should go away, there's no actual mechanic that varies his weaponry power, to be a variable tier, you need a mechanic like Moon Knight's moon thingy, if it's a full moon, bro gets his full power. So 8-C, up to High 8-C with weaponry is fine by me.

What about this?

Actual question? If so, it's just a fancy illusion he did with magical fire that those mages shot him with. Not actual magic.

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Also, I think the Varies tier should go away

Ah. I thought Varies would work since his weapons aren't all the same strength. but I guess "Up to High 8-C with equipment" would make more sense yeah.

What about this?

Higher with domain expansion

(this is a joke)

 

[sanicspood]

Answer is no.... kinda. Taskmaster fought pratically every single street level character in the whole verse, and characters like Daredevil can bypass huge AP differences via sheer skill alone, he's just THAT guy when it comes to that. In Taskmaster's AP justification it says that Daredevil needed skill to defeat him, so there's that.

so youre saying that every time daredevil and deadpool have fought this guy, its always been pure, raw skill that allowed them to keep up with taskmaster every single time?

 

[Tomfer]

so youre saying that every time daredevil and deadpool have fought this guy, its always been pure, raw skill that allowed them to keep up with taskmaster every single time?

Daredevil yes, it's even on Taskmaster's current AP justification. Deadpool is difficult to say since he's either competent or fodder. There's no in-between.

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

You could simply chalk it up to comics being inconsistent. A lot of our 9-Bs have fought our 8-Cs in the past. We just go by their most consistent showings.

 

[Tomfer]

Also stop using "always" and "every single time" with comics, it's not going to be an absolute fact every single time, it's about finding a common ground.

 

[Tomfer]

A lot of our 9-Bs have fought our 8-Cs in the past. We just go by their most consistent showings.

To be fair, our most skilled characters are 9-Bs, like Iron Fist, so we also chalk it up as skill diff too.

 

[MrKerf]

Agree.
Also, he tanked full powered Miles' punch in MM:Spider-Man and was fine a bit later, so you might add that to the list.

Each time Tony gets an update, the fact of him being afraid of Black Widow makes lesser and lesser sense.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Answer is no.... kinda. Taskmaster fought pratically every single street level character in the whole verse, and characters like Daredevil can bypass huge AP differences via sheer skill alone, he's just THAT guy when it comes to that. In Taskmaster's AP justification it says that Daredevil needed skill to defeat him, so there's that.

The answer is yes, actually.

Daredevil #293, Daredevil and Taskmaster go blow for blow in a short scuffle, neither of them are significantly injured by each others attacks.

But let’s take a look at Daredevil’s record with Captain America.

Daredevil & Captain America: Dead on Arrival, a brainwashed enraged DD and Cap go back and forth, with a lunge being capable of knocking Cap on his ass. Cap even notes that his form has “degraded”, but even that is top form compared to anyone else, and he performs a move he otherwise couldn’t because of that.

Captain America #375, a brainwashed enraged Cap fights DD, who’s severely off his game combat wise, yet still manages to land, and dodge blows, though is ultimately knocked out.

Daredevil #2-3 (2011), Cap engages DD, going as far to even use an anti-radar tech, and despite that misses, and doesn’t land so much as a single hit on him, even though DD just wants to talk. He gets grabbed once, briefly escapes, and the fight ends.

Nowhere in any of these three fights is it suggested DD is severely overpowered by Cap. In fact, across all three, DD is the one significantly disadvantaged. But we can also move on to DD’s contemporary, Elektra.

Elektra (1997) #7, two fights happen here. Elektra and Taskmaster engage, and she’s explicitly noted faster than him, and she cuts him. He adopts numerous fighting styles, but it’s not until he mimics DD, does he throw her off. Not physically, but emotionally, and gets the win. They rematch, unfettered by his tactics, she just one-shots him.

Lastly, I’ll just copy-paste an old comment:

Elektra (2014) #1 introduces a new assassin, known as Cape Crow. An assassin turned assassin hunter, in a mere flashback he takes on the combined effort of Bullseye, Scalphunter, Sabertooth, and the aforementioned Taskmaster all at once—and wins. Matchmaker, Elektra’s employer, asserts there is no other assassin that can take him on. To note, the objective goes from Elektra fighting Cape Crow to merely stopping him, as she encounters his son and he pleads for her not to kill him.

She encounters him in Elektra (2014) #5, and Cape Crow proves himself relative to Elektra, and easily able of luring her in to draw blood. It’s then revealed that Cape Crow is no ordinary fighter, but instead, a precognitive one, capable of reading your thoughts a millisecond before you do. How does Elektra counter someone who brutally dismantled four other capable assassins at once, that has the ability to read her every move? By clearing her mind of all thoughts, she moves on pure instinct, and executes such speed she completely blitzes Cape Crow. From there, it’s all her, she disarms, and overwhelms him in CQC alone. The fight ends with Cape Crow being shocked by Elektra’s sai in an attempt to try to fight her with it, and the fight ends there.

Elektra can subdue someone that Taskmaster can’t kill, even with the help of three other people. She’s definitively better.

So the idea that characters shouldn’t be upscaled and solely Taskmaster when people have beaten him, and or gone relative to Captain America, is frankly absurd.

 

[Tomfer]

The answer is yes, actually.

Daredevil #293, Daredevil and Taskmaster go blow for blow in a short scuffle, neither of them are significantly injured by each others attacks.

But let’s take a look at Daredevil’s record with Captain America.

Daredevil & Captain America: Dead on Arrival, a brainwashed enraged DD and Cap go back and forth, with a lunge being capable of knocking Cap on his ass. Cap even notes that his form has “degraded”, but even that is top form compared to anyone else, and he performs a move he otherwise couldn’t because of that.

Captain America #375, a brainwashed enraged Cap fights DD, who’s severely off his game combat wise, yet still manages to land, and dodge blows, though is ultimately knocked out.

Daredevil #2-3 (2011), Cap engages DD, going as far to even use an anti-radar tech, and despite that misses, and doesn’t land so much as a single hit on him, even though DD just wants to talk. He gets grabbed once, briefly escapes, and the fight ends.

Nowhere in any of these three fights is it suggested DD is severely overpowered by Cap. In fact, across all three, DD is the one significantly disadvantaged. But we can also move on to DD’s contemporary, Elektra.

Elektra (1997) #7, two fights happen here. Elektra and Taskmaster engage, and she’s explicitly noted faster than him, and she cuts him. He adopts numerous fighting styles, but it’s not until he mimics DD, does he throw her off. Not physically, but emotionally, and gets the win. They rematch, unfettered by his tactics, she just one-shots him.

Lastly, I’ll just copy-paste an old comment:

Elektra (2014) #1 introduces a new assassin, known as Cape Crow. An assassin turned assassin hunter, in a mere flashback he takes on the combined effort of Bullseye, Scalphunter, Sabertooth, and the aforementioned Taskmaster all at once—and wins. Matchmaker, Elektra’s employer, asserts there is no other assassin that can take him on. To note, the objective goes from Elektra fighting Cape Crow to merely stopping him, as she encounters his son and he pleads for her not to kill him.

She encounters him in Elektra (2014) #5, and Cape Crow proves himself relative to Elektra, and easily able of luring her in to draw blood. It’s then revealed that Cape Crow is no ordinary fighter, but instead, a precognitive one, capable of reading your thoughts a millisecond before you do. How does Elektra counter someone who brutally dismantled four other capable assassins at once, that has the ability to read her every move? By clearing her mind of all thoughts, she moves on pure instinct, and executes such speed she completely blitzes Cape Crow. From there, it’s all her, she disarms, and overwhelms him in CQC alone. The fight ends with Cape Crow being shocked by Elektra’s sai in an attempt to try to fight her with it, and the fight ends there.

Elektra can subdue someone that Taskmaster can’t kill, even with the help of three other people. She’s definitively better.

So the idea that characters shouldn’t be upscaled and solely Taskmaster when people have beaten him, and or gone relative to Captain America, is frankly absurd.

Milly, I hear you and I agree on a personal level but my reply was also considering VSBattle's annoying standards and previous downgrades related to Daredevil, including his downgrade from 9-A to 9-B. I even think we considered DD and Cap to be on the same level a few years ago? I wouldn't know since I wasn't active at that time. Truth is, I would consider all 9-Bs and 8-Cs to be on the same level, they all are able to compete with each other and etc, and even Marvel itself consider everyone to be on the same level.

My thoughts are, if we rejected 9-A DD, how are we bringing him up to 8-C alongside Tony?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

The rejection could just be stupid. Which it is. And something that should be rectified.

 

[DaReaperMan]

A different thread with a bunch of gathered feats should be gathered

Doubtful that Marvel Comics will have 9-Bs after this but eh, not too surprising to me

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

I mean personally, the gap between our 9-Bs and 8-C seems mostly vibes-based, as I've expressed in the past. It's a pretty weird jumble of mismatched statistics that pretty much concedes "Yeah, despite these characters constantly fighting on par with each other, we feel like one is more human-like, so he doesn't scale".

I don't really care or mind if Daredevil is upgraded to 8-C, honestly. But in Taskmaster's case, it's weird that he's such a routine threat to someone who, by current scaling, should be able to squash him like a bug.

Might've touched a broader nerve in terms of street tier scaling, in which case I'm fine with holding this off if a more comprehensive revision could be made.

 

[Tomfer]

The rejection could just be stupid. Which it is. And something that should be rectified.

It's not really stupid since it's a downscale from an explosion he barely survived. He was considered 9-A because of this but someone pointed out that since he took major damage, it should be a downscale instead.

I mean personally, the gap between our 9-Bs and 8-C seems mostly vibes-based, as I've expressed in the past. It's a pretty weird jumble of mismatched statistics that pretty much concedes "Yeah, despite these characters constantly fighting on par with each other, we feel like one is more human-like, so he doesn't scale".

Yeah, it was more a vibe-based to me too since I can see someone like Black Panther being 8-C but I can't see someone like Punisher being on that level.

 

[Tomfer]

Doubtful that Marvel Comics will have 9-Bs after this but eh, not too surprising to me

Downgrade all of them to 9-C.

 

[DaReaperMan]

 

[sanicspood]

Also stop using "always" and "every single time" with comics, it's not going to be an absolute fact every single time, it's about finding a common ground.

im aware, im asking that most of the time, daredevil, for taskmaster specifically, requires "skill" to withstand blows and throw punches back at him to win? how does this even work?

 

[Tomfer]

im aware, im asking that most of the time, daredevil, for taskmaster specifically, requires "skill" to withstand blows and throw punches back at him to win? how does this even work?

We are, quite literally, talking about this right now, bro... DD and Elektra have a bunch of 8-Cs fights and we are discussing if the tier difference should even exist.

 

[sanicspood]

We are, quite literally, talking about this right now, bro... DD and Elektra have a bunch of 8-Cs fights and we are discussing if the tier difference should even exist.

i didnt see the discussion below, mb gang

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Is there any mod knowledgeable on Street Tier scaling? Or someone who works consistently on the lower tiers of marvel.

would appreciate their input, at least on the revision itself.

 

[Jason_Courne]

It's not really stupid since it's a downscale from an explosion he barely survived. He was considered 9-A because of this but someone pointed out that since he took major damage, it should be a downscale instead.

Idk what they even mean by "barely survived" tbh, he's clearly shown to be fine, at most burried under some rubble

Anyway's back to Taskmaster. Taskmaster's copy abilities have been implied to also amplify his base stats, so you can't really assume he's the same strength across two different fights

 

[DaReaperMan]

Is there any mod knowledgeable on Street Tier scaling? Or someone who works consistently on the lower tiers of marvel.

would appreciate their input, at least on the revision itself.

I'm pretty sure all of them got pissed with Ant and AKM and dipped

 

[Tomfer]

Is there any mod knowledgeable on Street Tier scaling? Or someone who works consistently on the lower tiers of marvel.

would appreciate their input, at least on the revision itself.

M3X was one and he's knowledgeable on most of the street gang. And a few mods still listen to him, so he's worth a shot. Anyone beside him... Maybe Eficiente? He's not very active right now tho.

Idk what they even mean by "barely survived" tbh, he's clearly shown to be fine, at most burried under some rubble

I wouldn't know either, I wasn't even here when they made the downgrade, lmao.

Anyway's back to Taskmaster. Taskmaster's copy abilities have been implied to also amplify his base stats, so you can't really assume he's the same strength across two different fights

That's treated as speed amp only atm.

I'm pretty sure all of them got pissed with Ant and AKM and dipped

I would love to know what happened, lmao.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I would love to know what happened, lmao.

Oh, the usual, power abuse, stonewalling, general fuckery

Least that's why Amelia cut the shit and left. I know folks for DC not marvel

 

[Tomfer]

I know folks for DC not marvel

I think Elizio33 knows a bit of Marvel too, so he might help too.

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Anyway's back to Taskmaster. Taskmaster's copy abilities have been implied to also amplify his base stats, so you can't really assume he's the same strength across two different fights

That fight is an exception, not the rule. It's explicitly stated that doing so almost destroyed his body, so it's clear he can't perform moves beyond his physical stats on a normal basis.

M3X was one and he's knowledgeable on most of the street gang. And a few mods still listen to him, so he's worth a shot. Anyone beside him... Maybe Eficiente? He's not very active right now tho.

Ah, I'll try to reach out to them then.

 

[Tomfer]

I also got a few 9-B to 8-C fights to add to the pile:

Daken: Dark Wolverine. Issue 14: Moon Knight kept up and even harmed a frenzy Daken crazy with a drugged.

West Coast Avengers. Annual 2: Moon Knight one-shotted Black Knight with a sneak attack.

Avengers Vol 8. Issue 36: Moon Knight was able to barely stand against Black Panther even when mentally divided and wanting to lose the fight.

Moon Knight (2006) issue 22: Moon Knight kept up against Mac Gargan's Venom, alongside the Thunderbolts.

Marc Spector: Moon Knight issue 32: Moon Knight played around a mentally divided Hobgoblin.

(Not to mention that nowadays he should be Compable to Tigra since they are together and fought the same enemies)

Ah, I'll try to reach out to them then.

Add this with what you and Milly dumped here, we might have a new case.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

We shouldn’t hijack the thread, instead make a Marvel street tiers project, and show that for the most part everyone can beat everyone.

 

[Tomfer]

Ignoring all of that 9-B and 8-C talk, I think the Midas makes sense. Taskmaster's never been precisely a DD villain and, by the looks of it, seems to be far more active as a Cap antagonist (even if he takes jobs to take down everyone), hell, his first appeareance has in an Avengers comic. It makes sense to scale him to Cap more than with DD.

If this argument stretches further, we should just count the appearances and fights to see who he has fought more times.

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Tasky's only fought Daredevil twice, I think. He's definitely not a part of Daredevil's rogue gallery.

Deadpool is probably the only 9-B that Taskmaster fights on a frequent basis.

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

bump.

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

bump ig

 

[Hellbeast]

I agree with this; Taskmaster has consistent showings in this eange

Also this does make me wonder why we divide the Street Tiers the way we do; I swear we see more relativity then our current ratings imply

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Bump ig

 

[Tomfer]

Also this does make me wonder why we divide the Street Tiers the way we do; I swear we see more relativity then our current ratings imply

The division certainly exists since someone like the Punisher is definitely not 8-C physically while others can be seen as such. I guess the division should more like DD's characters being 9-B (possibly even back to 9-A since others 9-B have shown feats) while the rest can be 8-C.

 

[Hellbeast]

The division certainly exists since someone like the Punisher is definitely not 8-C physically while others can be seen as such. I guess the division should more like DD's characters being 9-B (possibly even back to 9-A since others 9-B have shown feats) while the rest can be 8-C.

Nah tbh even that feels weird

He’s consistently had contentious fights with the likes of Logan and DP for example and that’s not getting into the other characters

 

[SamanPatou]

From what I understand, this is the old problem of comics intertwining scaling between characters, and I'm not really sure what the current separation is built on, if consistency, "logic" (super superhumans, mild superhumans, normal humans..) or else, but by the same logic that everyone fight everyone you can argue they are all 8-C as well as they are all 9-B, but I also think some are afraid to see an escalation.
For example, Spider-Man and his rogue have went toe-to-toe with other street characters pretty often, but I think this might lead to a general upgrade to High 8-C after the initial to 8-C.
Then this spreads to mutants and others, and possibly even more with characters and higher tiers.

I honestly don't have a solution, a better answer or anything, but I believe we should think more into what upgrades could lead to with the same logic, as we all know writers don't care (rightfully) and our attempt to make order out of chaos will never be failproof.

 

[Hellbeast]

I defo think Spidey, Luke Cage and those who scale to them are a cut above the 8-C’s, my comment is more in regards to the 8-C’s

I would note the whole “hold baccc” meme with Spidey so it’s likely certain members of his RG don’t scale to him outright