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Superman Upgrade (2-A to Low 1-C)

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We cannot rate Superman as higher than 2-C, based on the 52 universes feat, as it would be far too much of an outlier, and we do not know how to properly rate the World Forger and Perpetua yet, as Snyder's version of DC cosmology does not mix well with previous versions.

It was also never stated that all spatial dimensions are contained in the regular 3 as far as I am aware, and Grant Morrison has previously treated the 5th dimension of the imps as the regular 3 that we perceive plus time and hypertime, which was here simply treated as intermingling and diverging alternative timelines.
 
> It was also never stated that all spatial dimensions are contained in the regular 3

Of course that was never stated, I just think it's the only way to reconcile Snyder's cosmology with every other DC writer's. With Morrison, higher spatial dimensions were easy to understand because it was just string theory in comic form, but in Snyder's cosmology the 5th Dimension is literal imagination energy flowing through everything else rather than simply a normal higher dimension. While Morrison acknowledged higher spatial dimensions and treated them normally, Snyder seems to have ignored pure higher spatial dimensions and would rather deal with weird metaphysical crap. Like I said above though, the problem is that new or casual readers just see "Sixth".
 
I do not think that it is possible to reconcile Snyder's cosmology with that of Morrison, much less Gaiman's or DeMatteis', and it would create too exaggerated statistics to rate the World Forger, Perpetua, and Barbatos as 1-B or higher.

For the time being it is probably safest to either delete the Barbatos profile, or strictly scale it from the original Anti-Monitor statistics.

Perhaps somebody should politely ask the following members to help us out with figuring out a solution here?

Matthew Schroeder, Kepekley23, Sandman31, KLOL506, Zensum, TheC2, Crimson Azoth, Eficiente, Qawsedf234, Huesito88, MrKingOfNegativity, Yobo Blue, Hykuu, Ultima Reality, SuperAPM.
 
This is why we agreed to wait though. There's no point sitting here endlessly trying to figure everything out before Snyder is even done with his story. We still know almost nothing about Perpetua's nature in the first place. It would be like trying to figure out Darkseid's true statistics after only three issues of Final Crisis and no interviews to clarify things.

This is Snyder's take on Year of the Villain: "It's incredibly compelling and fun for me because it's a culmination of all of this stuff that we've been building in Justice League from Metal to now."
 
Yes, that is true. Should I delete the Barbatos profile then?
 
Okay. It is the scaling that i am uncertain about.
 
Having a 1-B Superman would be ludicrous, if only because it begs the question of "Why doesn't Superman just do this sun dip against everything" even if there's a potential risk. Who needs cosmic armor when you can just absorb an entire universe of stars and punch Mandrakk in the face.

  • coughbutifforanyreasonthissupescouldbecomemultiverseplusidontseewhyprecrisiscantcough*
 
Also, the reason he's never done this before is that A. This is a recent discovery, B. It required heavy effort, set up by a Batman who was massively amped and C. Almost killed him, which was Batman was expecting in the first place.
 
He may or may not also have been amplified by Mister Mxyzptlk.
 
Considering that Supes has sundipped many times before and never got this strong, just how many Suns did he go through and how much time did he spend to get this powerful?
 
He just travelled straight through them over the span of a few minutes, as far as I understood. However, Mxyzptlk previously said that he had infused Superman with 5-D energy, so who knows.
 
Jared1111 said:
Having a 1-B Superman would be ludicrous, if only because it begs the question of "Why doesn't Superman just do this sun dip against everything" even if there's a potential risk. Who needs cosmic armor when you can just absorb an entire universe of stars and punch Mandrakk in the face.
  • coughbutifforanyreasonthissupescouldbecomemultiverseplusidontseewhyprecrisiscantcough*
Click to expand...
He can break all the multiverses he wants after a sundip spree but the monitor realm Mandrakk was in is on a different scale. Thought Robot/Cosmic Armor Superman is still useful for meta threats. 1-B doesn't make sense for regular Superman for now.
 
Well just to have my opinion on record, I'd prefer to just leave Supes at 2-C since 1) just because the Forger's multiverse had hypertime doesn't mean its hypertime was infinite like the main multiverse's, and 2) just because it had its own Fourth World universe doesn't mean the actual High 2-A Sphere of the Gods. Just look at every other multiverse that has its own emanation of Apokolips.

If we get a statement in the coming issues that the Forger's multiverse had its own Orrery then this would be a different story though.
 
@AKM

Superman hasn't sundipped many times, let alone through a bunch of stars like he did this time. The only comparable instance would be SP1M who's basically featless. Also what Ant said about Mxyz infusing Superman.
 
Shouldn't the Mxy bit be mentioned in his profile?
 
The Mxyz part is just speculation as far as whether it affected Superman's power level. In the issue where it happened, Superman's feat was solely explained by his sun dipping. Although as the storyline continues more information about whether Mxyz actually amped Superman may come to light.
 
Yeah, and SP1M has like... 80,000+ years of experience so he'd probably be way more adept at absorbing and containing Solar energy at that point. Let alone what other abilities he may have. So I guess a normal Supes wouldn't be using that many sun dips outside of a one off fight like this.

Really wish they would expand upon SP1M in some capacity, such an interesting character deserves something outside of non feats, speculation, and jobbing. A mini-series or something would suffice.
 
It's likely Myx lied about the 5th dimensional energy because he sent Superman to another galaxy of the same universe the rest of the JL went to, and they were fine.
 
ant why would rating superman higher be an outlier if he was massively amped by suns? also this is rebirth superman whos consistently been 5D
 
but thFirestorm808 said:
It's likely Myx lied about the 5th dimensional energy because he sent Superman to another galaxy of the same universe the rest of the JL went to, and they were fine.
Click to expand...
it wasnt a lie, its also the fact that the dimension he was sent to was a dimension created by the world forger.
 
befoUsernameMan12 said:
There's no evidence in the JL comic that Mxy amped him. He had a galaxy worth of suns lined up and a lot of hope.
Click to expand...
ur correct on the part where he was trapped, mxy didnt amp him at that point but before he went into that dimension it was noted that mr mxy had been amping superman with 5D energy pretty much his entire life up until that point, which explains someone of his outliers but not all of them
 
Asriel77 said:
ant why would rating superman higher be an outlier if he was massively amped by suns?
also this is rebirth superman whos consistently been 5D
Click to expand...
What do you mean by consistently 5D? His feats haven't been anything above the norm compared to post crisis or new 52 until now.
 
UsernameMan12 said:
Asriel77 said:
ant why would rating superman higher be an outlier if he was massively amped by suns?
also this is rebirth superman whos consistently been 5D
Click to expand...
What do you mean by consistently 5D? His feats haven't been anything above the norm compared to post crisis or new 52 until now.
Click to expand...
well theres the part where his fusion with his pre flashpoint counterpart pretty much destroyed one of mr mxys best dimensions and bodied mxy, theres also the point his conceptual being on that comic could not get erased by mr mxy. theres also the fact with his fight with rogol zaar in the phantom zone they were shaking the entire phantom zone which is consistently infinite. theres also the fact he one shots the world forger.
 
its also explained that rebirth superman keeps the story from both his new 52 variation and post crisis variation in action comics, and in superman reborn both of the timelines are shown merging so logically he keeps the same feats as those versions did lel
 
that would mean nothing as superman in that storyline noted if he wanted to at full power using a super flare he could have nuked the entirty of the phantom zone along with rogol zaar. the only reason he stopped was due to the fact he remembered his parents and how he was superman.
 
again the size of the phantom zone is infinite but its still larger than the universe going off the multiversity map which confirms the underworld is actually another name for the phantom zone or vice versa
 
Yeah can you point out the superflare nuking the entire phantom zone claim? His superflare's relatively weak, it hasn't done anything noteworthy last time I checked
 
I found the image and quote.

Source: Superman Vol 5 #5 January 2019

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/--E2qx3PG...5bgll6fZK94cApoKoGH4vqfuACHMYCw/s0/RCO019.jpg

"I keep telling myself I couldn't find a way to kill this monster even if I wanted to. But I could. I could make this entire dimension cease to exist if I really put my head to it. And maybe that's exactly what I should be doing."

Where is this information coming from? What past experience lets Superman think that he can erase an entire dimension?

To me, this is a case of how "could" should be taken in this context: a possibility or being able to do it. This is also ignoring Superman skipping ahead several Tiers with no real explanation.
 
Asriel77 said:
that would mean nothing as superman in that storyline noted if he wanted to at full power using a super flare he could have nuked the entirty of the phantom zone along with rogol zaar.
the only reason he stopped was due to the fact he remembered his parents and how he was superman.
Click to expand...
That would be a massive outlier though. Destroying the Phantom Zone outright would be a Low 2-C feat IIRC.
 
I've never been a fan of discounting character statements by playing with semantics, I prefer taking things at face value as given to us by the author, unless of course the story actually shows us the character was lying or incorrect.

With this case though, it's just an outlier and there's not really any need to dive into it beyond that.
 
I agree with PrinceOfTheMorning.

Anyway, what should we do about the Barbatos profile? Should we delete it, or maybe adjust its statistics until we know more?
 
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