Superman (Pre-Crisis) VS Zen'ō

[Jared1111]

Actually, not sure on that. I've always heard that Superman is actually fairly slow (relatively speaking) in terms of combat speed but he can accelerate to absurd speeds if he has the time to fly

I'm pretty sure Pre-Crisis combat speed is at least comparable to his flight speed, as other PC Supermen like SBP are shown as fast or faster than characters like Post-Crisis Wonder Woman, who has reflex feats that measure on the QuintillionsXFTL. He should also be at least be similar if not outright superior to Post-Crisis who has been stated to be as fast reflex wise as he is in travel speed.

But either way it really depends on who hits first, as others have said.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Yeah, I'm thinking Zeno should actually have equivalent reactions at least and he can instantly erase Superman. But Superman could also, probably, defeat Zeno if he gets intiative. It's based purely on who has the initiative.

Like I said, this can EASILY go either way so Inconclusive seems the most reasonable result.

 

[ArgentinianDeadpool]

Inconcludive fra

 

[Schnee_One]

What's the speed gap btw?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Like I said, Zeno should scale to having reactions or speed akin to Beerus, who is 3/4th the speed of Whis. Whis is recorded as having a speed of 498 quadrillion times the SoL. This should place Beerus at around 374 Quadrillion times the SoL, which Zeno should roughly scale to.

Superman has feats of traversing the multiverse in minutes (via acceleration, I think) and can cross one end of the universe to the next in seconds. Beerus can go from one end to the other in under 10 seconds. The Dragon World, IIRC, is over 100x the size of our universe.

I don't know how large universes usually are in DC, but I would assume they are identical to our universe. Meaning Beerus traversed, in under 10 seconds, a universe that is over 100x the size of Superman's own universe, which he could traverse in a few seconds.

So I think Zeno may, in-fact, scale to blitzing Superman due to the Dragon World being somewhere around 50-100x the size of the DC Universe but I would need more information about the Dragon World size, DC Universe (Pre-Crisis) size and Superman's speed feats to claim such a thing.

 

[Schnee_One]

Wait

Zeno is only in the quadrillions?

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Incon fra

 

[Jared1111]

The DC Universe is a bare minimum 100 TRILLION Light Years in size, which is about 1000+ times bigger than our observable universe (96 Billion Light years in diameter). Wonder Woman (Post-Crisis) has reaction speed on the low end of 52 QUINTILLION times the speed of light, and Pre-Crisis Superman scales way above her and his Post-Crisis self. Hell, Superboy Prime was able to speedblitz 3 different Flashes and the Flashes have argued that only at full power could they compete with him. and Superboy is a slightly weaker Pre-Crisis Superman. Flashes speeds vary, but they reach pretty ridiculous shit.

As you said, he can traverse the universe in seconds at worst, and fly between Universes in the time it takes him to sneeze. He really only needs acceleration to go beyond the Multiverse itself and break the "bounds of infinity" to get to realms that guys like the Spectre know he can never reach without threatening billions of civilizations. If Zeno compares to only Quadrillions x FTL at best, he's still gonna be a slug to Pre-Crisis

So i'd say he's pretty fast i guess.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Okay, so if Pre-Crisis Superman can traverse the universe in seconds in a universe 1,000x the observable universe, whereas Beerus (who Zeno seemingly scales to) can traverse a universe over 100x the observable universe in under 10 seconds...

Pre-Crisis Superman should be around 10-30x faster than Zeno. Which should be too fast for Zeno to even remotely see, considering Dyspo's Light Bullet was so fast that Champa was unable to see some of Dyspo's movements and Zeno was irritated over being unable to see Dyspo fight. Champa is comparable to Beerus, so yeah. Scaling indicates Superman should be 10-30x faster w/o acceleration.

 

[Yusuke138]

I also pretty sure Superman time travels with ease in Pre-crisis.

Also how does Pre-crisis Superman not gave resistence to EE. He has been hit by Darkseid Omega Beams so many times and survived not getting erased unlike many other heroes that were hit?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I don't think time travel feats are taken as speed feats so I'm not sure if that's applicable here.

Also, before anyone questions me claiming PC Superman is '10-30x' faster. I'm merely comparing the two most notable speed feats on the character profiles that are most comparable (Beerus traversing a universe in under 10 seconds and Superman traversing a universe in seconds) then considering the claim that the DC Universe is over 1,000x our universe (whereas the Dragon World is over 100x).

Literally just comparing two very similar feats and their magnitudes.

 

[Jared1111]

I mean, that's pretty fair. The only thing I think that tips this further in the scale for Supes is his limited precog, showing that Zeno would kill him and forcing to Superman to at the very least incapacitate Zeno.

But I'm gonna go Inconclusive for now, maybe leaning towards Supes if I can find more examples of precog or if BFRing Zeno to another Universe/Timeline is considered a win.

 

[JackJoyce]

The DC Universe is a bare minimum 100 TRILLION Light Years in size...

That 100 Trillion LY is introduced in Post-Crisis and it doesn't applies to this Superman. His travel speed is around septillions of times FTL according to this thread

 

[JackJoyce]

By the way what happened to 2-C Darkseid?

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

@Jack

PrinceOfTheMorning is still working on the profile

 

[Jared1111]

That 100 Trillion LY is introduced in Post-Crisis and it doesn't applies to this Superman. His travel speed is around septillions of times FTL according to this thread

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was it ever said the New Earth Universe was bigger than the Pre-Crisis Earth One? If not why would we assume it was smaller?

Either way if he's in the Septillion's X FTL he speed blitz even faster holy shit.

 

[JackJoyce]

That's travel speed. I don't know if his reaction speeds are the same. He has been blitzed by Pre Crisis Darkseid once (I can't remmeber the issue)

 

[Jared1111]

I mean if Post-Crisis Superman's reaction speed is comparable to his travel speed i see no reason why Pre-Crisis (who is considered to be stronger and faster than Superboy Prime who is way faster and stronger than almost every Post-Crisis JL member in travel speed/reaction speed sans a full power Flash) reaction speed wouldn't scale to his travel speed as well.

Pre-Crisis Darkseid is far superior to Pre-Crisis Superman in every capacity so i see no reason why that would affect Superman's speed. If anything is shows that Darkseid is immeasurably faster.

 

[JohnCenaNation]

If Pre Crisis Superman is winning over Zen'o, then can someone please explain to me, how the hell did Superman lost to Megaman in a fight? Because Megaman is the same guy whom stalemated Zen'o in a fight.

 

[Phoenix821]

Speed was equalized in that fight.

 

[Stalker_Maggot]

If Pre Crisis Superman is winning over Zen'o, then can someone please explain to me, how the hell did Superman lost to Megaman in a fight? Because Megaman is the same guy whom stalemated Zen'o in a fight.

1. Speed was equalized

2. The arguement was Mega Man haxraping

 

[JohnCenaNation]

Speed was equalized in that fight.

This is why I hate speed equalized battle, we would always need up getting the wrong person either winning or get an inconclusive result.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Would you prefer most matches to be blitzes then? Also there is no wrong person winning.

 

[JohnCenaNation]

Would you prefer most matches to be blitzes then? Also there is no wrong person winning.

Yes, because that's how the ************* Flash fights in everyone of his battles, you taking away their speed is the equivalent of you taking away part of their powers and abilities.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Pretty sure we let Flash keep his powers and abilities regardless of Speed Equalized.

Also, blitzes can't be added. Without Speed Equalized there wouldn't be anything to debate in a lot of fights.

 

[JohnCenaNation]

Pretty sure we let Flash keep his powers and abilities regardless of Speed Equalized.
Also, blitzes can't be added. Without Speed Equalized there wouldn't be anything to debate in a lot of fights.

You can't do that, it's no limit fallacy. Superboy-Prime outright admitted in the comic that if you are not fast enough, you can't trap someone in the Speed Force. So yeah, speed equalized Flash, and he loses his abilities.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Pretty sure we let Flash keep his powers and abilities regardless of Speed Equalized.
Also, blitzes can't be added. Without Speed Equalized there wouldn't be anything to debate in a lot of fights.

You can't do that, it's a no limit fallacy method. Superboy-Prime outright admitted in the comic that if you are not fast enough, you can't trap someone in the Speed Force. So yeah, speed equalized Flash, and he loses his abilities.

Ok then what would you suggest we do?

 

[JohnCenaNation]

Pretty sure we let Flash keep his powers and abilities regardless of Speed Equalized.
Also, blitzes can't be added. Without Speed Equalized there wouldn't be anything to debate in a lot of fights.

You can't do that, it's a no limit fallacy method. Superboy-Prime outright admitted in the comic that if you are not fast enough, you can't trap someone in the Speed Force. So yeah, speed equalized Flash, and he loses his abilities.

Ok then what would you suggest we do?

Ban Flash or any speedsters in general from being in speed equalized battles.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Then they'll never be used unless it's against someone with comparable speed which is pretty much speed equalized.

 

[Ionliosite]

How are the votes so far?

 

[JohnCenaNation]

Well I'm gonna be voting for Superman here, due to the fact that Zen'o's only method of being able to beat Superman is erase, which won't work due to Superman being able to tank Omega Beam and not get erased. Besides Superman at his peak has 2-A by being able to fight against Anti-Monitor. So Superman gets my vote.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

"Besides Superman at his peak is 2-A"

Not on his profile

 

[Torlikoff]

But this isn't 2-A Superman.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

I remember the Anti Monitor being severely weakened when that happened.

 

[JohnCenaNation]

Then they'll never be used unless it's against someone with comparable speed which is pretty much speed equalized.

I rather have Flash speedbliz his opponent in a fight with his superior speed like he normally does in the comic over him losing his abilities over a speed equalized battles, because he is called a speedster for a reason.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

This match is getting a bit derailed make another thread for that if you want.

 

[Ionliosite]

Even if Anti-Monitor wasn't half-dead when Supes had enough, it would an outlier.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

I rather have Flash speedbliz his opponent in a fight with his superior speed like he normally does in the comic over him losing his abilities over a speed equalized battles, because he is called a speedster for a reason.

He doesn't lose his abilities though. He's still allowed to do stuff like the Infinite Mass punch and time travel regardless of equalization.

 

[Jared1111]

Sorry dude, Superman being 2-A was decided against on this board. Be lucky they gave us 2-C at all.

But unless Superman's got resistance to EE as well (which is weird that Post-Crisis has like 3 resistances to it and Pre-Crisis seems to have none.) then this is at best inconclusive. Weirdly enough Post-Flashpoint would do way better because of his increased resistances.

 

[JackJoyce]

Well I'm gonna be voting for Superman here, due to the fact that Zen'o's only method of being able to beat Superman is erase, which won't work due to Superman being able to tank Omega Beam and not get erased. Besides Superman at his peak has 2-A by being able to fight against Anti-Monitor. So Superman gets my vote.

Omega Beams are inconsistent as hell compared to Zeno's erase which can erase timelines and immortals and what not. Either way Superman blitzes