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Superman (Post-Crisis) Possible tier change

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I don't particularly visit sites outside of Wikia and Wikipedia as a member, and there is risk that my popping up at the OBD would automatically cause unnecessary drama, due to some people that have been banned from here and the like.

However, I would appreciate if somebody else who is a mainstay there could ask.
 
The same can be said for me as i'd rather not visit the OBD themselves considering that a few may cause some unnecessary drama with me EVEN if i didn't start anything by just being there.
 
@Alakabamm The issue is it is never stated to be the same size or magnitude. only that he "ran in to one of them before" Them being a sun eater. We have no idea the magnitude of the one in the calc.

Also again, only the core of it was absorbed, not the whole sun eater, so the absorbed energy that was released which he was partially hit by was not close to the entire thing, so that means we can't assume he took anywhere near the full force of the entire sun eater exploding like with the kepler thing where the entire beast blew up along with the entropy bomb I might add.

So nah, I don't see the feat as solid proof of star level durability since the magnitude is unknown and he didn't take near the full force of the entire sun eater.
 
yeah, when he flies into the sun eater for the 50 supernova level feat he is carrying the entropy bomb iirc, that is what he throws to destroy the core and it explodes with the bomb and the sun eater blowing up, he is hit by the EM shockwave but escapes the bulk of it flying away.

Saying that in the calculated sun eater feat it does not consider that the 50 supernova one had the combined power of the bomb and the sun eater blowing up. As well of course as us not knowing the yield or size of the other sun eater regardless.
 
Yeah Ant tbh I have no profile in the OBD, and thus little pull, and some members have said less than friendly things about me in the past since they don't like where I consider DBZ characters to stand at, so if somebody else who has been there for a while talks to them it would probably work better than me going.
 
Yea, the "core" may be different if a bomb was involved, even if all the energy was stored there to begin with. I guess it doesn't apply.
 
Sorry dude, he only metabolized the energy of the anti sun. That is not eh same as tanking the potential yield of the bomb going off. So it is a unquantifiable feat of energy absorption, not durability.

If his cells weren't durable, they wouldn't have been able to hold and metabolize the energy. Simple as. You didn't address any of my other points

The fact is no proof exists the anti sun is the size of the real sun. Only speculation. And using the only scalable pics with superman as a reference it certainly doesn't scale to sun size. So I don't see it as a viable calc.

Again you neglect to address the points I brought up and just repeat yourself. Everything within the context of this story points it to being a sun, and because of that we use the size of our Sun as a baseline unless significant proof shows it's clearly not of that size. No, flight streaks can not be used as reference as I already pointed out that artists very rarely draw them to scale when characters are at a difference

The source says that superman should depart the immediate vicinity as it will not be hospitable, it says nowhere that he is stuck at the exact point of initial impact, also superman would not purposefully go as close to point of impact anyway. Fact is even if he were close still hundreds of miles or more would distribute all that over a huge surface area, there is no reason to think he took close to the full force of the impact. Also the geometry statement is not ideal for this situation, the planets get crushed together, they don't only have one tiny point of impact.

Except the Source was indeed willing New Genesis to crash right on their location, where Darkseid was fighting Orion. Superman didn't leave because he was scanning New Genesis for the possibility that one of the New Gods were still alive

Yes, they get crushed together, but only moments after the initial impact, which again must have happened at one point, a point I already establish is very close to Superman, meaning he still took a very large amount of that energy directly

I'll address this next point to both you and Ant:

The sizes of the planets being referred to as an unspecified very large is not the same thing as using stories by different writers from a few decades earlier in a different continuity to use calculation stacking to say with certainty that they are the size of stars or above. The writer of the story featuring the collission most likely did not know this unless he or she explicitly referred to it.

As for the New Gods being unchanged by the Crisis of Infinite Earths, this seems extremely uncertain, given that their power levels drastically went down, and their histories of interaction with the DC characters were affected to fit with the new continuity. They might or might not have knowledge of the previous continuity, due to enhanced godly perceptions, but that is not the same as being unaffected.

New Genesis and Apokolips exist in the 4th world, which exists outside the normal DC multiverse. The New Gods were spared from the Anti-Monitor's attack and even remember the COIE. [Here] is Orion himself directly referencing the events. [Here] is Darkseid just sitting in Apokolips watching as the crisis happened. The 4th World was unaffected by it. Just because Pre-Crisis history of the multiverse was rewritten it doesn't mean we can ignore everything from this era, especially when these events have been brought up so many times

The question remains now of whether or not the "Earth couldn't displace a lake" comment is accurate. Nothing at all contradicts it. The fact that different artists have written about the 4th World over time shouldn't mean we toss any descriptions of it aside should they stay consistent, and this statement most definitely has. There is no calc stacking here at all, just taking a direct quote from the source and applying it to the calc. Whether or not Jim Starlin knew about this statement is completely irrelevant, as his depictions of the planets in Death of the New Gods does not contradict it in the slightest. What's been brought up here is just an appeal to author's intent, which always just boils down to unproductive debates over speculation and opinions of what the author thinks

More to come
 
Well, there are still considerable contradictions regarding this interpretation of events, including their vastly differing power levels, and some of them being treated as encountering Earth's heroes for the first time, so different writers seem to have different takes on this.

Regardless, it goes strongly against our policy to scale between different writers and eras, due to the enormous regular inconsistencies between them.
 
Also, given that "Death Of The New Gods" contradict the version of events in the much more prominent "Final Crisis", its canonicity is uncertain.
 
Well, there are still considerable contradictions regarding this interpretation of events, including their vastly differing power levels, and some of them being treated as encountering Earth's heroes for the first time, so different writers seem to have different takes on this.

Then provide the scans. Show me Orion or Darkseid having no idea who Superman is when the first met in Post-Crisis. Or either of them being vastly downgraded outside of PIS

Regardless, it goes strongly against our policy to scale between different writers and eras, due to the enormous regular inconsistencies between them.

Even after I just went at length explaining why the Fourth World doesn't conform to the normal DC multiverse and really isn't inconsistent in this regard?

Also, given that "Death Of The New Gods" contradict the version of events in the much more prominent "Final Crisis", its canonicity is uncertain.

Yea I've heard about that before too. [Here] is Morrison's take on the inconsistencies. Basically DotNG and FC were written at different times with the authors not fully aware of what was going to happen in each other's stories. As a result, DotNG became a bit of a mess, but so was everything surrounding Countdown, DotNG, and FC. That's kind of why the whole event wasn't exactly well recieved. However, as Morrison explained, they still referenced events of DotNG in FC, so I don't see why the entire storyline should be moot when all three are still considered canon, even if it's a very messy crossover
 
I don't have the luxury/time to check for scans. I am busy enough just monitoring this site, and tend to go by memory, but as far as I understood from the Giffen/DeMatteis Justice League stories, Mister Miracle and Barda had their histories adjusted to fit with the new continuity. That said, it has been a long while, so maybe I misremember.

Regardless, the new gods went from being threats to Pre-Crisis Superman, to being threats to the much weaker Post-Crisis Superman. That is hard to overlook.

Also, our general policy applies to all different Marvel and DC writers, regardless of continuity, the longer period of time in-between them, the less reliable power-scaling, or calculation stacking, between them turns. My apologies, but this part is not up for debate.

I also remember reading that Morrisson interview, but the inconsistencies are too hard to easily overlook, even if we disregard the fact that the Source has never remotely been portrayed in the manner that Starlin did, before or after the event. This makes it very hard to accept the story at face value.
 
From what I understand, the only changes made to MM and BB were that they were once heroes that operated on Earth after they fled from Apokolips, then they retired to live a normal life. That doesn't mean they were rebooted. If they were affected, then it would be because they were on Earth, not in the Fourth World

I also can't find an instance of Pre-Crisis Superman fighting any of the New Gods other than Darkseid. There seems to be a permeating idea that all Pre-Crisis characters were vastly overpowered when compared to their Post-Crisis counterparts. That may be true for some characters, specifically Superman, but the fact is many characters' levels of power remained the same or in some cases even increased

If an ongoing story remains consistent despite being authored by many people over time then who's to say statements from earlier authors can not stand? This should fall within the "Case-by-Case" section of the rules imo. If you wanted something about their sizes from Post-Crisis, [they were formed from the remains of God Word], which initially had a size that "[dwarfed galaxies]." Now obviously since God Word was utterly annihilated we can't exactly say that either Apokolips or New Genesis are even a respectable fraction of the original planet's size, but even an insignificant smithereen of the planet can still be the size of a star at least. It's just another note in the long list of statements of these planets being very large

The Source's depiction was a bit odd, but I believe it was more of an avatar or doppelgänger of the Source than the full, true Source. Like I said, the crossover was pretty infamous for it's sub par at best writing, but it should not mean that the events should be ignored all together, especially since they're part of the greater DC canon and the reference the events in other tie-ins
 
Pre-Crisis Superman needed help from the Infinity Man to overcome even a few of Darkseid's weight-increasing androids during his first encounter with the new gods.

As I mentioned earlier, given the enormous inconsistencies between author to author concerning pretty much everything about the Marvel and DC characters, especially over long periods of time, we cannot scale between them with anything remotely resembling accuracy. This part is not up for discussion, as we cannot make exceptions just because I personally like Superman.

I don't think that the specific events of Jim Starlin's death of the new gods story were referenced afterwards, especially not the Source as a malevolent supervillain, rather than as a form of nirvana beyond the multiverse.
 
@Metabro Metabolizing energy =/= durability. That's like saying android 20 can absorb Goku's Kamehameha so he has that durability. I won't accept the feat as a durability one since it is an energy absorption feat. Also again fuel source =/= potential yield of bomb just like a uranium core does not equal the nuclear explosion it can be used to power. Finally even if we did ignore all that it would be an extreme outlier to give him a multi SS level durability.

As for the Anti Sun, please show proof it is as big as the actual sun, the only scaling comes from Superman flying into it, and that says otherwise whether you accept it or not. Nothing says it is as big as the sun to my knowledge. It simply being like a sun does not make it that size automatically. So if there is no proof of it being that size then your just making an assumption and favoring superman for best possible scenario of an unquantifiable feat.

As for the planets colliding again it goes against scaling rules and the force is spread over a massive area. No proof exists he was right in the center even if he were in the vicinity, a vicinity of an object that size could be thousands of KM long or even much more, or in other words trillions of M squared or more easily, which he would take up maybe 2 of. Soi the amount he would be hit by is negligible.
 
The Living Tribunal1 said:
femto second reactions wud be like around a billion x light speed
Click to expand...
How does that work: from reaction speed to that kind of speed? I've been trying to figure it out, even though I checked on Speed several times.
 
SunWukong1986 said:
The Living Tribunal1 said:
femto second reactions wud be like around a billion x light speed
Click to expand...
How does that work: from reaction speed to that kind of speed? I've been trying to figure it out, even though I checked on Speed several times.
Click to expand...
well it works under this assumption, one reacting in nanoseconds means seeing things move approx light speed close to them *like 11.8 inches per second near them*

of course this is a rough estimate and it can be a little more or less

and femto second = billionth of nanosecond = billion x nanosec reactions = ~ billion x c reaction
 
@The Living Tribunal1 Isn't a nanosecond 1 billionth of a sec, and a femtosecond 1 quadrillionth of a sec? If so then a femtosecond RS would make him a million times faster than a nanosecond RS so wouldn't femtosecond be more like a million times ftl?
 
SSJRyu1 said:
@The Living Tribunal1
Isn't a nanosecond 1 billionth of a sec, and a femtosecond 1 quadrillionth of a sec? If so then a femtosecond RS would make him a million times faster than a nanosecond RS so wouldn't femtosecond be more like a million times ftl?
Click to expand...
Correct, a femtosecond is a quadrillionth of a second.
 
1 femto second = 10^-18 s

1 nanosecond = 10^-9 s = 10^9 femto second


therefore doing things in 1 femto second = billion x faster than doing something in nanosecond

nanosecond reactions here are listed as high end relativistic to low end ftl

so femto second reaction would be severa hundreds million x light speed to a few billion times light speed

in terms of perception
 
So, does anybody have the full femtosecond page, so we can get some context? If so, I would not at all mind upgrading Superman to MFTL+ reflexes, and possibly movement speed.
 
Yes. The second scan seems more reliable, given that he would not be able to talk normally with Projectra within a femtosecond.
 
It would not result in an upgrade however.
 
well i expected superman to not be upgraded based on femtosecond overall

but flash: he may have a chance, but if contradictions show up, then well...
 
The Living Tribunal1 said:
SunWukong1986 said:
The Living Tribunal1 said:
femto second reactions wud be like around a billion x light speed
Click to expand...
How does that work: from reaction speed to that kind of speed? I've been trying to figure it out, even though I checked on Speed several times.
Click to expand...
well it works under this assumption, one reacting in nanoseconds means seeing things move approx light speed close to them *like 11.8 inches per second near them*
of course this is a rough estimate and it can be a little more or less

and femto second = billionth of nanosecond = billion x nanosec reactions = ~ billion x c reaction
Click to expand...
Is that so? Hmm...
 
SSJRyu1 said:
@The Living Tribunal1
Isn't a nanosecond 1 billionth of a sec, and a femtosecond 1 quadrillionth of a sec? If so then a femtosecond RS would make him a million times faster than a nanosecond RS so wouldn't femtosecond be more like a million times ftl?
Click to expand...
I think you're right. I checked the converter from femtosecond to nanosecond... 1 femtosecond equals to 0.000001 (or 10^-6) nanosecond. So that would make 1 nanosecond like what, a million times slower than femtosecond? Or was it the other way around? ^^;
 
I think I understood how it got the nanosecond for light speed. Since light travels ~0.3 meter in 1 nanosecond while it takes light to travel ~0.3 micron (micrometer) in 1 femtosecond. Is that how it is?
 
wait wait wait wait


i mistook something i mistook femto second for attosecond... so flash has attosecond or femtosecond reactions???
 
Femtosecond reactions for Supa doesn't appears to be an inconsistense, he always shows an absurdly level of speed, also, remember about a blog that said that Supa has zeptosecond reactions according to Batman, but never found the source
 
Brad Meltzer's Justice League run.
 
Yes, but as seen in the scan above, he was talking casually with Projectra for far longer than a femtosecond, which makes the statement unreliable.
 
@ The Living Tribunal1

yeah Femtosecond would be 10^15 Attosecond is the 10^18 your thinking about.

But id agree with Ant personally that superman never actually shows proof of having the femtosecond speed, and consistently shows and is said to use less. Although in the same breathe millions of times ftl doesn't sound to outrageous for him either imo.
 
SSJRyu1 said:
@ The Living Tribunal1
yeah Femtosecond would be 10^15 Attosecond is the 10^18 your thinking about.

But id agree with Ant personally that superman never actually shows proof of having the femtosecond speed, and consistently shows and is said to use less. Although in the same breathe millions of times ftl doesn't sound to outrageous for him either imo.
Click to expand...
He's demonstrated being millions of times FTL numerous times. Having femtosecond reactions isn't implausible. It's written into the story, and he then leaps towards Jeckie with a punch, who pops up a force-field. The story is trying to suggest that he actually did it. It's supported by the narrative, as well as countless other speed feats.

Superman has femto-second reaction time.
 
Nah dude, it does not specify he actually has such reaction time. It only says to put it down in that timeframe. There is no feat that actually is stated to be done in that timeframe. As for it being implausible, sure it's possible, but not confirmed since he does not have other combat speed feats of that speed, only travel speed feats with acceleration.
 
Ryu someone keeps on telling me that superman lifted the book of infinite pages and while he doesn't believe the book had infinte pages he does believe that the book contains all of existence so yeah here is the scan that they keep on spamming and it is getting annoying plz help

http://i.imgur.com/eXZFfyA.jpg
 
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