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Superman (Post-Crisis) Possible tier change

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SSJRyu1

SSJRyu1

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So I was looking at why Superman is being placed as large star level and I believe I found an issue with the calc.

It assumes the anti-sun on the mageddon warhead is the actual sun in the calc that is being used, and they use that to scale it's size. In reality the anti sun is way smaller as seen here.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/114690/2798722-ms.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/59221/2693479-mageddon.jpg

Really the warhead is more like large planet size.

So unless I'm missing something I believe that Superman and those scaled from him should be placed back to large planet level I believe it was.
 
Seems good, but I personally have Post Crisis Superman at Dwarf Star+. Though this site won't care about that, so yeah, Large Planet it is then.
 
No, the point of the scans was not to find the exact size of the warhead, but to show that it is not the sun, which is what was being assumed for the current calculation being used to gauge superman's power, but the anti-sun attached to the warhead as its fuel. Thus the calculation is invalid since the warhead is scaled from that incorrect assumption that the anti sun was the actual sun. Although the actual size could probably be calculated if somebody wanted to calc it.
 
Either way, he still didn't count Superman absorbing the Mageddon bomb because it's "unquantifiable", even though it was stated in the comic that the energy was capable of wiping out half a galaxy. It's a pretty important feat.

Hell, his profile HAS the feat on it and says that it could "vaporize half a galaxy", yet for some reason we're not counting that towards his durability. Why? That should place Superman at at least Multi-Solar System level or Star System Level. I get that Superman's powers have been exaggerated AND wanked in the past before, but that feat is pretty concrete and the writer's intent is pretty clear. Superman can survive enough energy to wipe out half a galaxy.

http://imgur.com/a/HJHiP

Also, for speed, he's stated to be able to react in a femtosecond.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/108495/3285881-4669103438-super.jpg

There's also the feat of him surviving a bomb 50x the size of Kepler's supernova. And yes, he DOES survive the supernova-- the only thing that would have killed him was the ball of radiation that followed it.

http://static6.comicvine.com/upload...+gets+hit+with+the+force+of+the+explosion.jpg


I know it's rather easy to tell that I'm a Superman fan and clearly a little biased, but these feats are pretty concrete.
 
This really seems to be more about perspective than anything. We don't know how close the Earth is to Maggedon or the "anti-sun" on its forehead. Based solely on these scans I see nothing that contradicts the anti-sun being at least the size of actual Sun

Even if this is disproven (I know the author is planning on recalcing eventually), Superman has more than enough feats putting him at large star to solar system level+, so a downgrade is out of the question. If anything, I would argue his stats should INCREASE due to the planetary collision feat and outrunning/reacting to the reality blitzing missiles
 
^^^ I support that. I remember another thread about the same thing, but there were other feats of that level.
 
Well there are a few problems that I have with Post-Crisis Superman being ranked as Large Star Level based on this feat. Namely that he performed this feat in space and Superman's powers fluctuate depending on where he is at any moment in time. On Earth he tends to be weaker than in space due to there being a much lower concentration of solar energy on Earth.

Also him surviving enough energy to wipe out half a galaxy is not valid for ranking his durability at multi-solar system level, it's simply a question of Superman's biology. He can absorb sunlight to add to his powers and also anti-sunlight. If Hellboy survives a fire based attack that can wipe out a planet that doesn't mean that he is planet level, it's just because he's fireproof. The same thing applies here
 
Not sure if the power of Supa is very different when he is in the space or in the earth, however, I'm not good identifing feats from Supa; about the speed, not sure about the femtosecond thing, that doesn't appear to be a serious thing, I heard that Supa has zeptosecond reflexes but never sawsuch a thing. Better consult with an expert
 
Antoniofer said:
Not sure if the power of Supa is very different when he is in the space or in the earth, however, I'm not good identifing feats from Supa; about the speed, not sure about the femtosecond thing, that doesn't appear to be a serious thing, I heard that Supa has zeptosecond reflexes but never sawsuch a thing. Better consult with an expert
Click to expand...
I don't really think Superman would have a reason to lie or exaggerate something like that. It's not really within his character to do so. He doesn't really have a reason to lie in the first place. If he was lying, he could have just as easily said "nanosecond" or any other ridiculously small increment of time.


Also, I don't think anti-sunlight is equal to sunlight in regards to his physiology. Superman seemed surprised that he was even able to absorb it and there was still some sort of visible strain on his body. And either way, even if that's invalid, the Kepler's Supernova feat is not nothing. People who've tried to "debunk" the feat and downplay it usually get debunked themselves. That's how that argument usually ends on forum sites.
 
Well the half galaxy absorption thing is not a durability feat but an absorption feat, and the bomb never detonates, its just the fuel so the possible yield of it exploding =/= it's fuel, that's like saying eating a lump of uranium makes somebody nuke level durability.

As for the Anti sun, nothing suggests it is our suns size, and many scans even contradict that notion. So it really can't be used and that calc is invalid as it stands.

As far as the kepler supernova thing 2 issues.

1. it is stated that if he were caught in it he would be instantly incinerated, he was only hit by the initial shockwave, not the main ball of radiation, the bulk of it.

2. Also he was not on top the thing, only a tiny portion of the huge Omni directional blast would have hit him even if we ignored that the main part didn't touch him, so he never really tanked close to the whole thing no matter how you look at it.

As for the planets colliding, again we don't know there size, and if we assume large star size as the calc does, then he is only hit by a insignificant fraction of the full force, as most of it is distributed over the rest of the surface area.

So I don't see any legit feat to put him at Large star level when you look at them all closely.
 
Mageddo

Absorbing energy most definitely correlated to durability, especially considering anti-sunlight was harming him. His cells took that level of energy without being destroyed, so it's a durability feat too. You misunderstand how the warhead work too. [It functioned both as Mageddon's power source AND as a bomb, and if it's energy would have been released then half the galaxy would have been destroyed]. [Oracle says it operates this way too], and we know that Maggedon's power was potent not only because it cause great conern in the New Gods, but also because [even Heaven itself was planning on meeting with THE PRESENCE what to do should no one stop Mageddo]

The scans provided do nothing to prove that the anti-sun is smaller than the normal Sun. Perspective is key and none of the images I see show it clearly right next to the Earth

Sun-Eater

Except that instance isn't the feat that was calced, it just provided context. [Here] is the large star level feat, and it centers arount a VERY early Post-Crisis Superman

Planet Collisio

[The blog] did a really good job of portraying its size based on source material. Read the comments too, as the author explained why Superman had to have tanked the entire KE of the collision. The calc was a low end anyway, since EM only calculated the GBE of each planet, which would yield far less energy than what you'd need to utterly destroy and fuse them together like what happened
 
Mageddon still is just a power source/bomb, not necessarily the yield of the bomb if it were to detonate. Sure you could call it a type of durability feat I guess in the same way eating lava is a durability feat, but it is not quantifiable as you cannot assume the energy absorbed is equal to the potential yield of the explosion. Not to mention it even states the thing would go Hypernova implying an almost nuclear like reaction, making the power source or fuel not equal to the yield. It certainly does not prove he has half galaxy level durability.

Can you prove that the anti sun is big as the normal sun then. Also for specific ones that prove it isn't, Superman flies into it and the core is relatively not far away, and it's outer most sphere even can be seen as a bend compared to Superman, if it were sun size it would be so massive that would look like a flat wall of fire, so it shows it is nowhere near the size of the sun.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/33308/872113-mageddon2.jpg

They assume he is hit with the entire amount of energy, which is not even plausible. the impact occurred over much of the surface area of the two planets and would be spread out along all of that, and also they assume he is literally at the exact point of impact dead center down to the meter, which is extremely unlikely, when we have no idea where on the planet he is. So no, the majority of the force would not even have touched him and it is not proof of him being large star level from what I have seen.
 
SSJRyu1 said:
Mageddon still is just a power source/bomb, not necessarily the yield of the bomb if it were to detonate. Sure you could call it a type of durability feat I guess in the same way eating lava is a durability feat, but it is not quantifiable as you cannot assume the energy absorbed is equal to the potential yield of the explosion. Not to mention it even states the thing would go Hypernova implying an almost nuclear like reaction, making the power source or fuel not equal to the yield. It certainly does not prove he has half galaxy level durability.
Can you prove that the anti sun is big as the normal sun then. Also for specific ones that prove it isn't, Superman flies into it and the core is relatively not far away, and it's outer most sphere even can be seen as a bend compared to Superman, if it were sun size it would be so massive that would look like a flat wall of fire, so it shows it is nowhere near the size of the sun.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/33308/872113-mageddon2.jpg

They assume he is hit with the entire amount of energy, which is not even plausible. the impact occurred over much of the surface area of the two planets and would be spread out along all of that, and also they assume he is literally at the exact point of impact dead center down to the meter, which is extremely unlikely, when we have no idea where on the planet he is. So no, the majority of the force would not even have touched him and it is not proof of him being large star level from what I have seen.
Click to expand...
Uhh, absorbing energy is the BEST kind of durability feat. Superman absorbing that is a more impressive feat than if he were to stand in the middle of the explosion. I don't know if you guys are aware, but Superman's body wouldn't be absorbing ALL the energy if he just took the blast head on. Whereas if he's ABSORBING IT, that's ALL the energy coursing through his body. If anything, I'm low-balling it.
 
Well, absorbing enough energy to supposedly vaporise half a galaxy has to be considered as an outlier, or pure energy absorption feat, given that Superman has consistently been harmed by far less.

However, unless the OBD changes their measurement of the Mageddon feat that we currently use, I agree that we should keep it, that there are a few other feats almost on this level, and that the anti-sun is likely a matter of perspective.

On the other hand, we cannot use the New Genesis/Apocolips collission feat, as it uses calculation stacking between different continuities, writers, and eras, despite the extreme inconsistencies between them, which goes strongly against our Power-scaling Rules for Marvel and DC Comics.
 
Well I'm glad that you agree on the other feats not being viable, but I really don't see how we can use the mageddon feat in good conscience when we know they assumed a false piece of information to get their numbers.

They used the anti sun to scale the whole thing, and assumed it was the real sun, which is not the case, and the size is shown to be much smaller, certainly never proven to be as big as the real sun. I think in this case we should consider the OBD incorrect and not use there calc if they are indeed using that calc, since it is based on a false assumption making the whole thing wrong.

I am not sure what we had Superman previously at but I think he should probably go back to it until there is a more solid undeniable calc to put him higher.

Anyway I've said my piece on it, just thought I'd point out the discrepancy and suggest it be changed.
 
Well, I have answered this question previously in another thread, and as I wrote there, we are most likely not going to revise this scaling unless the OBD does so first. You can bring up the issue to them if you wish.
 
If you don't mind me asking why are we accepting something just because the OBD does? There are many instances where we accept things here or don't accept them when the OBD has a different stance. I completely understand when their calcs are accurate and we don't find faults in them why we would accept them, makes things easier and faster for us, but accepting this doesn't make sense to me since we know the calc is wrong. The calculation is an older one that is known to use faulty information so why should we accept it really in the first place knowing that?

I could say though if it helps superman is stated to be able to shatter planets with his bare hands, and it looks like the warhead is at least large planet size just from a glance even at the pic. So we could certainly justify planet level and likely large planet levels without issue.
 
Because I am very uncertain if your assessment of perspective is an accurate one, and frankly they have considerably more calculators than we do, who are able to evaluate the feat.

We usually only disagree with them whem it comes to gauging the higher tier characters.

In addition, considering that Superman has other feats of the 4-C level, and that Mageddon was in fact stated as capable of vaporising half a galaxy, I do not find it implausible that it would be larger than the Sun.
 
I'm not claiming to have the exact size, but we know their feat is done wrong since it assumes that the anti sun is the sun, so even ignoring my estimation on its size we know for a fact they made a critical error. So there's really no proof of how big the warhead is, aside from way bigger than Earth tbh.

What other 4-C feats does he have? I ask because ive not seen any claims for them aside from the ones mentioned here, and as you said the others mentioned here do not really give him such stats.
 
Well, there were a few of them mentioned in the previous thread, but for example, I think that he has an "infinite mass punch" thst strikes with star level force.

Anyway, perhaps you do have a point, although it would be quite a lot of work to possibly rescale most of the Post-Crisis DC characters.
 
I am going to highlight this thread for more input, but I only want serious analytical responses, not any irrelevant negative bias.
 
Ok, so my thoughts on this:

1. I am not a DC expert but I trust Ant with the topic so the planets colliding is right out.

2. As for the anti-sun thing, I don't see why that would count as him being immediately star level. We don't know the timeframe of "absorption" and furthermore it is a "sun" so it would be specific to that kind of power (he even says so in the scans)

3. The femtosecond thing looks like it could upgrade his combat speed. Ant, is that scene canon?

4. The "sun eater explosion" calc was done perfectly so I don't see why it wouldn't apply. The same goes for the planet movement feat.
 
Yes, it is most likely canon, going by the characters involved, but I do not know the context of what happened afterwards.
 
the femtosecond thing seems inconsistent, Supes has always been portrayed to have trash combat speed usually. Superman has more hundreds of times FTL Combat Speed feats than a femtosecond feat. Plus Superman is commonly stated to be nanosecond level, and femtoseconds are much smaller than nanoseconds. And Superman has been stated to have a lower combat speed than traverse speeds
 
Well, we tend to go by the higher feats, as long as they are not complete outliers, but we need more than a single panel for context.
 
He does? I mean he travels at ridiculous speeds that unless he bullrushes through any and all obstacles he might pass by (e.g. a flying brick flying through a planet because he can't be bothered to move), he'd be dodging it, therefore, reaction speed.
 
@TLT1 That does seem like an outlier, or taken out of context then.

@TRCH I don't think that we do. What are you thinking of?
 
Omg. I don't know why Autocorrect came out as Flash. Or maybe I'm just tired isk. I meant to say Superman. Sorry, Ant. Question still stands though.
 
Okay. Well, as I mentioned in the Speed page, fiction usually tends to work different than logic in terms of flight speed and movement speed.

Characters who can fly across the universe are usually portrayed as much slower in regular combat, or personal perceptions.

Marvel's Executive Editor Tom Brevoort has even repeatedly made a point about this.

Hence, we should ideally try to keep the two separate, unless proven othervise.

That said, if we get a better context for the femtosecond speed feat, we might be able to upgrade him to MFTL+ after all.
 
Antvasima said:
Okay. Well, as I mentioned in the Speed page, fiction usually tends to work different than logic in terms of flight speed and movement speed.
Characters who can fly across the universe are usually portrayed as much slower in regular combat, or personal perceptions.

Marvel's Executive Editor Tom Brevoort has even repeatedly made a point about this.

Hence, we should ideally try to keep the two separate, unless proven othervise.

That said, if we get a better context for the femtosecond speed feat, we might be able to upgrade him to MFTL+ after all.
Click to expand...
yes, i think the billion times light speed reaction for the new 52/ post flashpoint flash doesnt seem to be unrealistic for him
 
We are talking about Post-Crisis Superman though.
 
Going by the art style and costumes, yes it seems to be post-Crisis.
 
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