Suggested changes for how we treat Omnipresence

[DaFritzi]

In the last time I've often met the question: What is faster omnipresent or immeasurable? I have come to realise that there is an error in the question itself.

That error is that we compare a state of existence with a state of speed.

We often tend to use the following example as justification why omnipresent must be faster than any other speed:

You have a race between character A (omnipresent) and character B (not omnipresent). The moment the race starts character A has won because he is at the start and the goal at the same time. No matter how fast character B is he cannot be at the goal before A because B has the necessity to move.

The error with this lies not in the example itself but in generalising it's result for all different forms of speed. It is true character A of our example has no need to move because he already is everywhere, so he is "above B in travel speed", as long a B is moving within the confines of A's omnipresence.

This however cannot be applied to any other form of speed. The fact that you are everywhere at the same time does not influence how fast you can think, react or how long it takes you to perform an attack.

This of course applies only as long as we are speaking of 3D omnipresence, omnipresence across time (4D omnipresence) would make you faster than infinite 3D speed, because it gives you a different perception of time. However even with 4D omnipresence you still need time itself to exist to be able to perform actions.

Thus the "fastest" speed would be immeasurable because you don't even need the existence of time to be able to think and act.

Thus I suggest removing 3D omnipresent as a state of speed and adding it as an ability instead.

 

[The_Everlasting]

You yourself are generalizing the result.

 

[DaFritzi]

In what way?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Your error starts in assuming an Omnipresent would have perceptions like physical beings bound to a single location does.

 

[The_Everlasting]

"The fact that you are everywhere at the same time does not influence how fast you can think, react or how long it takes you to perform an attack."

 

[Kaltias]

Immeasurable does need time, just a higher-dimensional variation of it. Irrelevant doesn't need time at all.

4D Omnipresence is for 4D immeasurable what 3D Omnipresence is for Infinite speed

 

[DaFritzi]

"Your error starts in assuming an Omnipresent would have perceptions like physical beings bound to a single location does."

Your error is assuming they don't. Concerning 4D omnipresent beings you are correct, but I have adressed that issue above.

"Immeasurable does need time, Irrelevant doesn't need time at all"

You get the rating of immeasurable by acting in non-existent space time. Irrelevant means you are beyond the concept of speed.

@Ever I don't see the error in this, just because you are everywhere does not mean you think faster than someone who is able to do so without time passing.

Most omnipresent characters, would than be infinite/immeasurable with omnipresence as ability. We cannot confuse omnipresence with infinite/immeasurable speed, just because most characters who fall in that category have both.

Let's take Fusion Zamasu as an example. He was 3D omnipresent while fighting Goku and co., still they where able to dodge his attacks. Because those were only mftl+.

Edit: Giving immeasurable speed, a speed that is achieved by acting without time (without the dimension of time) existing, a dimensional index contradicts the original definition.

 

[Kaltias]

No, you get Immeasurable if you trascend linear space and time. Moving consistently in non-existent space-time will get you only an Infinite speed rating. Sealed Dialga and Palkia, for example. And being beyond the concept of speed means simply being beyond the concepts of space and time altogether (1-A).

 

[Kaltias]

Infinite Speed (Able to move indefinitely while time literally stands still, or to travel anywhere instantly. Teleportation does not count.) That's what a charachter would get if it moved while time was stopped, erased, or similar, like Dialga, Palkia and GER.

Immeasurable (Higher-dimensional entities beyond linear time and 3-D distance, and its' concepts of speed. However, take note that higher order dimensional nature does not automatically guarantee this. The speed statistic should be listed as "Immeasurable" only if a character is completely transcendental to the distance, time, and causality of a normal universal continuum.) That's the rating if you are bounded to a higher dimensional time, but trascends the regular space-time.

Irrelevant (Characters beyond the concepts of dimensions themselves, including time. Meaning: Tier 1-A and above.)

 

[DaFritzi]

I admit, you are correct concerning infinite and immeasurable. My initial request was only about 3D omnipresence though.

 

[Kaltias]

As Omnipresence is confusing enough in its own right, i've always imagined it like this.

A is 3D Omnipresent, B has Infinite speed.

They are fighting, and A attacks. B blocks, but at the same time, A is attacking him from the left, right and the front, and B can't react to all of those attacks. So, in a way, A is blitzing.

Not sure if this help

 

[DaFritzi]

The thing is, while A can attack B from all directions, those attacks do no need to be of infinite speed. Thus if they are not, like in my Zamasu example, B will have no problem dodging.

 

[The_Everlasting]

See, Zamasu wasn't Omnipresent yet. He was still in the middle of controlling the universe.

That and you could literally just put your attacks at any point in space and your enemy couldn't hope to dodge them.

 

[DaFritzi]

I knew Zamasu was a bad example, he always is. However even if you can put your attacks anywhere in space, if your opponent blitzes you that advantage is worthless.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree about that omnipresence is technically a state of being, rather than a speed. However, we list it in the speed column for the sake of convenience. It would be very bothersome to start a massive revision project.

 

[Kaltias]

I can't really debate about Zamasu because I never watched DBS, but I think that a 3D omnipresent character should have infinite attack speed, unless the opposite is specified. Also, as Ever said, nothing really prevents A from creating an attack where B is.

 

[Antvasima]

I have added a minor clarification to the Omnipresence section of the Speed page.

 

[DaFritzi]

Thank you for considering my suggestion and adding a clarification.

The more I think about it, the more I realise how complex the whole matter is. I will continue to think this through.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Perhaps we should close this thread?

 

[DaFritzi]

We can close this for now.