Street Fighter EX Scaling

[DimeUhDozen]

There's a tricky matter regarding the matter of Street Fighter EX continuity and how these characters should be scaled. Some say that they're not canon in the slightest, counting them as spin-offs. However, the Street Fighter V encyclopedia calls back to these characters and characters like Darun are mentioned in the canon game by Zangief, but since in their stories, Kairi and Garuda fought Akuma and so on and so forth, how should we scale them?

 

[SamanPatou]

EX Layer is totally not canon, as its story isn't considered by the main Street Fighter plot (including IV and V, when it started being consistent) or official summarizations like those in the 30th anniversary collection.
I don't know about the encyclopedia, but even the Shadaloo Research Lab has their profiles, even though it specifically states that they belong to EX.
Zangief mentioning Darun can be just a reference or an evidence that Darun exists within the canon universe, but it's another version.

Personally I would count EX as a different path the story took from Alpha 3 onwards, developing in the EX canon until Fighting EX Layer, in a relationship like that between Dragon Ball GT and DBZ.
This means that feats and stuff from Street Fighter 1, Alpha 2 and Alpha 3 should be allowed for scaling purposes.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

EX Layer is totally not canon, as its story isn't considered by the main Street Fighter plot (including IV and V, when it started being consistent) or official summarizations like those in the 30th anniversary collection.
I don't know about the encyclopedia, but even the Shadaloo Research Lab has their profiles, even though it specifically states that they belong to EX.
Zangief mentioning Darun can be just a reference or an evidence that Darun exists within the canon universe, but it's another version.

Personally I would count EX as a different path the story took from Alpha 3 onwards, developing in the EX canon until Fighting EX Layer, in a relationship like that between Dragon Ball GT and DBZ.
This means that feats and stuff from Street Fighter 1, Alpha 2 and Alpha 3 should be allowed for scaling purposes.

That sounds fair enough. I think that should be enough to allow them at least a proper tier.

 

[SamanPatou]

Both 7-B feats come from the Alpha series, so they're safe.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Both 7-B feats come from the Alpha series, so they're safe.

Yeah, I did a recent check just to solidify it. Looks like they can sit comfortably where they are.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew_Schroeder @TISSG7Redgrave @BlackDarkness679 @N-nani @Anttron224 @PuasLuisZX @MaidRips @SinsofMan

As you may or may not have noticed, we have received quite a lot of new profile pages for the non-canon Street Fighter EX characters recently, and they are all scaled from the canon version of Akuma, despite that this is equivalent to scaling between different timelines with different versions of the characters:

Street Fighter

For detailed information about this series, visit the Street Fighter Wiki. Street Fighter (ストリートファイター), commonly abbreviated as SF, is a popular series of fighting games in which the players pit combatants from around the world, each with their own special moves, against one another. Street...

vsbattles.fandom.com

As such, I think that they should all likely be rescaled from the feats displayed in the EX continuity games alone, and possibly the earliest SF games that happened before there were several continuities, and nothing else.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

For the moment, leave them as they are, they will be dealt with in the near future, there is the main series to be handled currently

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

EX isn't canon last i checked but Akuma's scaling comes from the alpha series thus iirc are canon. Though idk if its possible to scale EX akuma with mainline akuma's feats and everyone who fought EX akuma to scale

 

[SamanPatou]

Alpha 2 and 3 are canon to the main series, but I'm not sure if the second is canon to the EX series (the third came out after the first EX, so it isn't canon to it).

If Alpha 2 is canon to EX, which has to be demonstrated, the island shattering feat could be accounted for scaling to the EX characters, otherwise we work only with internal feats.

But doing the opposite, scaling back from EX to the main series, shall not be done, as it's not canon.

We also need feats to be calced, before we can talk about replacing tiers.

From what has been told me, there three feats available, i.e. Zangief others two characters hurling the opponent in space with a super move, and the fact that they are three would make it consistent.

 

[Antvasima]

Should we add a "(Non-Canon)" description to the EX section of the Street Fighter verse page, and place said section at the bottom of the page, to avoid future scaling misunderstandings?

 

[DimeUhDozen]

From what I understand in the series, Alpha series and before is canon to EX, but EX is not canon to anything after that. Sakura is already acquainted with Ryu, Akuma is already aware of Ryu's usage of the Satsui no Hado, in Ryu's tag-team ending, the battle with Sagat is directly mentioned, Ken is married to Eliza ... I'll try to get some more if possible.

Edit: Okay, I got some solid info. EX takes place about the same time Street Fighter II takes place in the canonical storyline. That's where the timeline diverges. Everything before then is fair game.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then. So is it appropriate or not to scale to Akuma's feat? (Did it happen in the EX timeline?)

It would probably also be good if we include some kind of note in the verse page about that EX is not canon to the rest of the franchise.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Yes, Akuma's feat is Pre-Street Fighter II (Back in the Alpha series; see the nifty and cohesive timeline Saman made in the SF Revision thread for more info), so it would be appropriate.

And I agree. We likely should.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Is somebody here willing to write an appropriately placed note about that into the Street Fighter verse page?

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Just made one. I think that should suffice.

 

[SamanPatou]

I would like to make some changes to that note, specifically in this way

The Street Fighter EX series (and its sequel Fighting EX Layer) is not canon to the main Street Fighter continuity, and its story takes a different path starting from Street Fighter Alpha 2 onwards (according to the series' timeline).

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Alright, that should suffice then.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Is fighting layer really a sequel to EX? i read somewhere it isnt

 

[Antvasima]

SamanPatou:

That seems fine to me. Feel free to modify the note accordingly.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Fighting EX Layer is a sequel, yeah. It calls back to plot elements like Hokuto breaking free of the Seal Of Blood, Hayate of SFEX2 being possessed by Garuda for the entirety of the plot, and their general backstories carrying over into this one. It's much more simple of a sequel than something from say, the mainline titles, but I'd say it adds up enough to warrant that title.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Ok, then EX series has EX, EX+, EX+ alpha, EX2, EX2+ and EX3 and then fighting layer right?

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Yeah, exactly. And the drama CDs that take place somewhere within the games they represent, which the creator acknowledges as canon.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Are these drama CDs worth checking from a vs perspective or they just to add more to lore?

 

[DimeUhDozen]

They are, most definitely, since they contain a lot of fights. The problem is, they're very inaccessible, and what I've managed to gather from them are from summaries from people who have listened to them, and then double-checking around to see if the accounts line up. If anyone has them available, that would be a very big help in terms of scaling. But from what I have available, I have the matchups listed here.

Chun-Li beats Doctrine Dark.
Kairi beats Ken
Guile beats Doctrine Dark.
Hokuto beats Pullum.
Hokuto beats Ken.
Ryu beats Ken.
Skullomania gets the living daylights beaten out of him by Hokuto, Ken, and his wife for interrupting the match between Ken and Hokuto, but comes out okay.
Kairi takes on Akuma but gets beaten and is saved last minute by Garuda who takes on Akuma himself, overpowers him and scares him away when he realizes he's no match for him.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

I see

Well 7 games to be checked up for more feats/scaling and then needing to decide who gets what, not to count powers/abilities as well

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Yup. And possibly the original Fighting Layer, but from what I've seen, there isn't anything substantial in terms of feats, powers, abilities, and canonical content.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

If that one really doesnt help much at all, it should be ignored then

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Most likely, though if profiles were made for the FL-exclusive characters in the future, it may be worth checking out.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Thats another matter for another time

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Alrighty. In that case, I believe that's all, aside from bits and pieces of lore from manuals and such. Those, I'm still looking into.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Its a pain in the ass to look for old manuals especially if there are many versions for a character on what they did during one title

 

[DimeUhDozen]

I've learned that the hard way, unfortunately. Luckily, most of the information I've collected seems to line up pretty well, aside from a Kairi retcon which the creator himself debunked.

 

[SamanPatou]

Internet Archive has some manuals, I suggest you to look there. (That's where I found the original Darkstalkers guides, with some stuff from Street Fighter Alpha and SNK titles).

 

[BlackDarkness679]

For other franchises they dont exist even in archive and neither does the wikis for them have citation and when asked on discord, they didnt knew it themselves

 

[Antvasima]

So what needs to be done here?

 

[SamanPatou]

Nothing for now.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Should I close this thread, or let it remain open?

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Let it open, we will return on it when we already have checked all there is for EX series

 

[SamanPatou]

I think it can stay open, it's not a CRT and everyone can use it for related purposes.