- 22,383
- 18,589
Following off from this last blog, and the current Sandbox showing my ideas. Please look at them, because there's a lot of important context in that previous thread, such as the Gonzati-class' laser cannons not being capital ship-grade.
The source of this statement comes from a Legends guide and was reprinted by a highly contradictory canon guide book (see the canonical/non-canonical sources section). There's also no evidence that they're in the same league as Capital Ship-grade laser cannons.
Supporting this level of power, the heavy laser cannons and concussion missiles of a Starhawk-class Battleship could tear apart an unspecified Star Destroyer, though one that has a nominal crew of 40,000 and took a long time to destroy, meaning it should be far more massive than an Arquitens-class Light Cruiser.
Darth Vader Survives A Sith Temple Explosion - The actual calc isn't wrong, but Vader didn't withstand the explosion at point-blank range. He was also rugged and heavily breathing (even more than usual) afterwards, so it stands to reason that this is mid-end for him. Using the surface area Spino calced here and a few metre's distance gets sub-kiloton results.
In ''Padawan Lost''/''Wookie Hunt'', some Younglings physically fight Trandoshans (though they're greatly outlcassed) and toss them around or even Choke them with the Force. So they're easily Wall level to Small Building level.
Luke, who had little to no training, was able to withstand a few indirect hits from the laser cannons of an LAAT/le gunship, which disintegrated a rock formation (the vaporization end is no longer viable). In ''Jedi Night'', we see that a few direct hits from an LAAT/le's cannons can destroy other gunships, in one case even two shots easily blows one up. In an earlier comic line, he also quaked an Imperial II-class Star Destroyer, which are 1.6 kilometers long.
In ''The Gathering'', Ahsoka and 6 Initiates pulverized an ice cliff, which is a City Block level feat. This may seem unimpressive due to the six Initiates, but they were only capable of feats like this at the time, so Ahsoka should be far more powerful than all of them combined. She could also defeat four MagnaGuards with relative ease. For reference, MagnaGuards are constructed from duranium, which is more durable than the titanium-alloy X-wing Starfighters are made out of.
In ''The Phantom Menace'' and the Darth Maul comic line, it's shown that much older Padawans with experience (including Obi-Wan Kenobi and Eldra Kaitis) can fight on par with Darth Maul before the Clone Wars, when his powers increased significantly. Both of them are stated to have great potential and would become Jedi Knights rather quickly, even surpassing a low-level Master.
According to Ahsoka, anyone on her level should be able to easily defeat a standard Inquisitor, who are shown to be a threat to someone on Kanan's level, and implies that a Jedi (likely meaning master, in this case) should be able to win quite handily.
Note: Dyad separation has been completed in a different thread.
However, Palpatine is logically way more powerful than before. Firstly, he fought on par with and killed Rey, who was not just amped by a small collection of Jedi (at least two of whom were Palpatine-level, already), but a thousand. Secondly, his force lightning was far larger and more powerful than ever, it even reduces him to "not even ashes" in a matter of moments, while he could survive his own lightning in Episode III.
Secondly, the Malevolence was going into hyperspace when it crashed into the moon (also proving that canonical Hyperspace ramming existed far before ''The Last Jedi''). It may not look like it, but it makes sense with the context, given the Hyperdrive was functional and the navigational computer was the only thing that was sabotaged. Similarly, the Raddus was also moving at just under light-speed when it crashed into the Supremacy, ramming the flagship just before it fully entered hyperspace.
There are also ships that are almost completely different from Legends. For example, the Ebon Hawk doesn't exist in canon, the Victory-II has far less armament and firepower then its non-canon counterpart and the Praetor-class Star Battlecruiser has only been mentioned once in a re-canonized page of Complete Vehicles (2018). Here's a list of the ships with these kinds of problems.
As further proof of these outdated guides, the Complete Vehicles (2018) reprints a scan (one of these) that says the LAAT/i's blaster cannons have a yield of 5x10^9 joules. In canon, the LAAT/i only has laser cannons/turrets and missiles.
Starfighters
Shields
Starfighters aren't really capable of taking their own attacks, or blasts from vehicles with similar firepower. For example, during the Battle of Yavin a typical TIE can up blow an X-wing with a direct hit to an engines. In one of the comic series, Luke could only survive a direct hit by diverting his deflectors to the point of impact. The shields of an A-wing even get taken out by one burst from a Clone Wars-era fighter.Proton Bombs
In Episode 8, a Fortress Bomber's proton bombs punch through a weak point on a Mandator's hull. While there were a thousand, it still proves at least a single proton bomb can crack the hull of a Mandator IV-class Siege Dreadnought, since the first few did deal damage. We see in ''Star Wars: Rebels'' that weaker bombs can easily destroy a CR90 Corvette. This kind of power level isn't totally unreasonable; in Innocents Over Ryloth, fire from J-1 proton cannons were piercing the shields of a few Acclamator-class Assault Ship, even crippling one's engines to the point where it crashed.- CODY: General, the enemy fire is penetrating our shields.
Capital Ships Ratings
Ion Cannons
Ion Cannons are ionized particles that deal little physical damage compared to their power to disable electrical systems, so producing heat (meaning transformed energy) equivalent to a 4.8 megaton nuclear weapon doesn't prove its energy output is equal to a nuclear bomb. It's also fairly common to the terms heats and temperature interchangeably, as well (for those who don't know, heat is the total kinetic energy of something, while temperature is the kinetic energy of each particle).The source of this statement comes from a Legends guide and was reprinted by a highly contradictory canon guide book (see the canonical/non-canonical sources section). There's also no evidence that they're in the same league as Capital Ship-grade laser cannons.
Laser Cannons
In the episode Ambush, a Consular cruiser is quickly disabled by a barrage of shots from two Munificent-class frigates. They didn't use their twin heavy (there are only two) or light turbolasers, instead they used their light point-defence cannons, which is why they had a relatively short range. During the Battle of Ryloth and Lola Sayu, these cannons could deal moderate damage to the armour of a Venator.Supporting this level of power, the heavy laser cannons and concussion missiles of a Starhawk-class Battleship could tear apart an unspecified Star Destroyer, though one that has a nominal crew of 40,000 and took a long time to destroy, meaning it should be far more massive than an Arquitens-class Light Cruiser.
- Out there, the Star Destroyer is in the slow-motion midst of its destruction. The elimination of a capital ship like that is rarely fast—it’s bled like a great beast, like a purrgil punctured over and over by hook-lashes before it can be brought up on deck. Missile streaks and laserfire crisscross the endless dark, and slowly but surely the Destroyer is ripped asunder as the vacuum of space sucks great gulps of fire from fissures in its hull. And then like that—
Sub-/Capital Ship Turbolasers
FanofRPGs has recalculated the XX9 heavy turbolaser feat, with multiple staff members accepting the 33-gigaton end. However, as he points out, the art of this comic is highly inconsistent at best. Fortunately, despite being armed with light turbolasers, Arquitens-class light cruisers have a Large Mountain level+ feat, which would make medium and heavy turbolasers Island level. This is consistent, as it took all the laser cannons (capable of vaporizing a mountain), proton torpedoes, ion cannons and bombs of a B-wing to penetrate the shields of and partially disable a Quasar Fire-class cruiser.- A burst of laserfire lit her shields. Close enough, she decided. The starfighter sizzled as she ignited her ion cannons. Three streams of electric-blue bolts streaked toward the carrier, sending out shock waves of lightning where they struck. Chass was barely aiming—she’d be lucky to short out a turbolaser emplacement or a sensor tower—but she only intended to cause confusion and panic. Glothe and Merish were firing as well, and together they descended on the vessel. Her head slammed into her seat as a laser volley hit her dead-on. The ship rocked and the console glowed with alerts. She grinned and fumbled with the volume control until the music was deafening. The cruiser-carrier was close enough to dominate her view. She cut short her barrage and turned, swinging the cross-body of the fighter to reposition her jets. Now she was passing over the carrier. Now she was a perfect target, and she could see her objective. She fired again and unleashed the B-wing’s entire arsenal, proton torpedoes and laserguided bombs tearing through space as her shields burst and particle bolts scorched metal. She smelled burning wires. She heard Glothe scream and saw his blip fade from her scanner.
Force Lightsabers
In this section, I'm discussing why lightsabers aren't more powerful in the hands of a force-user.Why Not
Lightsabers aren't physical blades, they're extremely hot currents of energy from Kyber Crystals, so physical strength shouldn't have an impact on what they can cut, more like how effectively they cut. It's even shown on multiple occasions that unenhanced Humans, Clawdites and Mandalorians can hold up against powerful Force-Users (though a weakened one in the former's case).- Energy constantly flows through the crystal. You're not fighting with a simple blade as much as you are directing a current of power.
- Until activated, a contained energy axe is easily mistaken for a common vibra-axe. However, rather lhan relying on ultrasonic vibrations for its cutting power, a contained energy axe houses a diatium power generator that. when activated, produces a magnetically contained energy blade along the edge of the axe head. While the hefty axe relies on raw strength to inflict much of its damage, the addition of a centimeter of coherent plasma along its cutting edge allows the weapon to slice through nearly any material with ease.
- Fanry said, “Is a stronger Force user’s lightsaber stronger, too? What happens when two Jedi fight each other?” “The blade isn’t stronger. Only the Force user’s ability to wield it,” Obi-Wan said. “In ceremonial combat, of course, we’re displaying forms more than actually testing strength—”
Evidence For
The Great Saber entry on Knights of Fate states that a Great Saber's increased energy emission, its wielder's natural strength, and the hilt's weight all contribute to making it more deadly than a standard lightsaber. But even then, it doesn't say strength increases cutting power.- Great lightsabers are oversized lightsabers built for use by individuals with large, powerful Frames. Heavy, often awkward and difficult-to-use weapons, they feature reinforced hilts with heavy-duty power and emitter systems that produce blades in excess of two meters long. Their heavier hilts and more powerful blades, combined with the natural strength of their intended users, make these massive lightsabers even more potent and deadly than their smaller cousins.
Debunking Some Stuff
General Grievous can cut through lightsaber resistant electrostaffs that even Anakin can't even damage. If this is the case, why aren't lightsabers more powerful depending on who wields them?- Inconsistency: Anakin and Obi-Wan can increase their strength to fight Grievous, so they should have similar physical strength, although to a much lesser level. But the two should be able to at least cut them if Grievous can slice through them like butter.
- Grievous possibly has a more powerful lightsaber: there are lightsabers with higher power generation than a regular one, such as the Great Saber shown before. Darth Vader's lightsaber also has [https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Darth_Vader's_lightsaber two Kyber Crystals], which almost certainly increases the yield from what we hear in Catalyst: A Rogue One Novel about their power generation. These are the quotes for proof.
- All that, though, would mean nothing if he failed to find a way to amplify the research he had been conducting for more than a standard year, but which had fascinated him for half his life. Assuming he could coax greater power from the kybers, would Orson’s team be able to contain and deliver the enhanced output?
- “After Malpaz. After I bought into Orson’s lie about anarchists and the Emperor’s dreams for sustainable energy. I agreed to go deeper into the research than I knew was advisable. I trusted Orson when he said that his teams were working on ways to contain the power yield, when in fact they were merely working on ways to channel it into a delivery system. To harness the full force of the kybers’ destructive power for use as a weapon.” He raked his hair back from his face. “The Jedi were right.”
- Krennic inclined his head in acknowledgment. “Preliminary results indicate that the energy released during the test-fire had the destructive power of the combined batteries of a qaz-class Star Destroyer.” “An encouraging beginning,” the grand vizier said. “This is Galen Erso’s doing?” “Only in discovering how to conjure necessary power from the kyber crystals,” Krennic said, playing to the holocam. “Credit for the rest—the lasers and such—goes to my team.”
- If one kyber crystal can power a lightsaber, hundreds of thousands could form the backbone of an unimaginably powerful weapon. - Rebel Files
Force-Users
Calc Debunkings
Plo Koon's Telekinetic Power - Firstly, the Droch-class is nowhere near 500 tonnes. It's under 19 metres in height and most of that is the legs at the bottom; an X-wing, which is 11 metres long, only weighs 10 tonnes. Secondly, he didn't move his ship's propellers, just a Clone Trooper that was floating in space. And lastly, he clearly didn't force push anything at over 6 kilometers per second in this scene because it's clearly in real time.Darth Vader Survives A Sith Temple Explosion - The actual calc isn't wrong, but Vader didn't withstand the explosion at point-blank range. He was also rugged and heavily breathing (even more than usual) afterwards, so it stands to reason that this is mid-end for him. Using the surface area Spino calced here and a few metre's distance gets sub-kiloton results.
Initiate/Low-Level Padawans
In The Gathering, two initiates (both of whom are in the most powerful class Jedi Initiate during the Clone Wars) shatter an ice wall with some difficulty by concentrating their powers on it, which I've calculated as Wall level. Later, one of them manages to smash through an ice wall by running through it, which is implied to be a result of Force amplification. This is consistent with Kanan, who'd just passed Initiation to become a Padawan, decapitating B1s with his physical strikes.In ''Padawan Lost''/''Wookie Hunt'', some Younglings physically fight Trandoshans (though they're greatly outlcassed) and toss them around or even Choke them with the Force. So they're easily Wall level to Small Building level.
Luke, who had little to no training, was able to withstand a few indirect hits from the laser cannons of an LAAT/le gunship, which disintegrated a rock formation (the vaporization end is no longer viable). In ''Jedi Night'', we see that a few direct hits from an LAAT/le's cannons can destroy other gunships, in one case even two shots easily blows one up. In an earlier comic line, he also quaked an Imperial II-class Star Destroyer, which are 1.6 kilometers long.
High-Level Padawan/Jedi Knights
In a tie-in comic that takes place during Rebels Season 1, Kanan and Ezra (his far inferior aprentice) moved two asteroids with enough force to damage a Kom'rk-class fighter. It was almost completely operational, however, with just a couple of heavily damaged engines. Later, Kanan improves a lot and even more throughout Season 2 of Rebels.In ''The Gathering'', Ahsoka and 6 Initiates pulverized an ice cliff, which is a City Block level feat. This may seem unimpressive due to the six Initiates, but they were only capable of feats like this at the time, so Ahsoka should be far more powerful than all of them combined. She could also defeat four MagnaGuards with relative ease. For reference, MagnaGuards are constructed from duranium, which is more durable than the titanium-alloy X-wing Starfighters are made out of.
In ''The Phantom Menace'' and the Darth Maul comic line, it's shown that much older Padawans with experience (including Obi-Wan Kenobi and Eldra Kaitis) can fight on par with Darth Maul before the Clone Wars, when his powers increased significantly. Both of them are stated to have great potential and would become Jedi Knights rather quickly, even surpassing a low-level Master.
Jedi Masters
Most stronger Jedi Masters (Koth, Fisto, Obi-Wan, etc) appear to be on par with the likes of General Grievous (though weaker, since Kenobi has been frequently outclassed and even hurt by kicking him) and Darth Maul during the Clone Wars, while the weaker ones (Halsey) are often only able to put up a short fight against characters on this level before being killed. For reference, Grievous, like his MagnaGuards, is made of duranium (likely of a far higher grade) and could dent the capital-ship grade armour his vessel is made of.According to Ahsoka, anyone on her level should be able to easily defeat a standard Inquisitor, who are shown to be a threat to someone on Kanan's level, and implies that a Jedi (likely meaning master, in this case) should be able to win quite handily.
- “He’s had some training,” Ahsoka said. “He mostly relies on brute strength. If he was going to be facing Jedi, or someone with my level of training, I’d say he wouldn’t be much of a threat. I defeated him without my lightsabers. But the others like him won’t be facing Jedi.”
Palpatine Downgrade
Palpatine lightning blast mostly disabled the ships like an EMP, rather than doing massive amounts of physical damage. Supporting this point, the novelization implies the crashing ships weren't crippled, rather their engines exploded. Even the mass-driver cannon of an AT-TE or laser cannons of a TIE Fighter are more than capable of destroying the engines of capital ships.- Poe managed to right his X-wing, forgoing his display to rely on his own two eyes. But the larger capital ships required more advanced systems to stay aloft. The Tantive IV began to plummet toward the planet, and then one of its thrusters detonated. Poe was powerless to stop the blockade runner from exploding.
Note: Dyad separation has been completed in a different thread.
However, Palpatine is logically way more powerful than before. Firstly, he fought on par with and killed Rey, who was not just amped by a small collection of Jedi (at least two of whom were Palpatine-level, already), but a thousand. Secondly, his force lightning was far larger and more powerful than ever, it even reduces him to "not even ashes" in a matter of moments, while he could survive his own lightning in Episode III.
- He blasted her with all his anger in the dark side. She crossed the blades and held firm, feeling a thousand presences supporting her. Her blades did more than absorb her grandfather’s energies. They deflected them back at him and the chamber around him.
- Struck by his own dark power, Palpatine shrieked as his flesh, muscle, and bone melted away, until nothing was left. Not even ash. Rey fell to the floor as rubble rained down around her.
- He raised his perfect, healed hands, and called on all the dark power of the Force and the Sith who had come before him, and pulled their life from their very bodies. It poured from them like a river of light, leaving them weaker and weaker.
Miscellaneous
Death Star/Supremacy Durability
Firstly, the fractional refresh is only a weakness for planetary shields due to the massive power constraints, it's not actually to allow ships in through hyperspace or something like that, but ships can escape through hyperspace due to the velocity they travel at. It could be argued that the Supremacy has planetary shields, but the ones on Starkiller Base have to be roughly a thousand times larger (assuming the Supremacy's shield bubble is an ellipsoid that reaches over the hull, bow, stern and wingtips, while Starkiller's is a spherical skin-tight shield).Secondly, the Malevolence was going into hyperspace when it crashed into the moon (also proving that canonical Hyperspace ramming existed far before ''The Last Jedi''). It may not look like it, but it makes sense with the context, given the Hyperdrive was functional and the navigational computer was the only thing that was sabotaged. Similarly, the Raddus was also moving at just under light-speed when it crashed into the Supremacy, ramming the flagship just before it fully entered hyperspace.
Executor Durability
I can't find a single source on the claim that damage "considered "crippling" on an Imperial-class star destroyer is considered "negligible" on an Executor", nor an Executor surviving heavy turbolaser blasts in canon. However, in the Darth Vader comic line the ''Executor'' was relatively undamaged after being rammed by a Whale-ship, which can tank the secondary batteries of the Devastator (meaning light and heavy turbolasers, but not main batteries), which is an Imperial-I with power at least equal to an Imperial-II.Mandator IV Cannons
Each and every guide I've found only calls them point-defence anti-aircraft cannons. In the Last Jedi novelization, the novels are confirmed to be point-defence turbolasers.- Ahead of him loomed the First Order's massive Siege Dreadnought, laserfire arcing up at him from the turbolaser cannons that dotted its upper hull.
- The Fulminatrix's cannons had been designed to be able to target enemy starfighters, but Black One was moving at speeds no point-defense crew had ever experienced, even in the simulator.
Occupier Tank Cannons
The Rogue One novelization states that the Occupier's blaster cannons can level a city block. The problem is no source I can find states that the TX-225 has blaster cannons, only laser cannons. I don't think this is contradictory, since laser cannons are upscaled blaster cannons, and vice-versa. Many novels in Star Wars actually use the terms interchangeably.- Even before the interceptor and the V- wings closed to within blaster range, one of the freighter’s engines burped a gout of blue flame and burned out.
- The heavier armaments of the transport had a longer range than the interceptor and V-wings’ blasters and opened up before the starfighters got within blaster range.
- Sweat made Ciena’s gray jumpsuit stick to her skin. She kept her eyes locked on the grid and her voice as even as she could manage. “O-L- Seven-Zero-One, N-A-EightOne-One, you’re getting in really close to one of the larger asteroids—” “Target seems to be looking for cover. We’re on him.” That was OL701. Through the NA811 uplink, Ciena heard only breathing that was too shallow, too quick. Penrie had just seen two other pilots explode in front of his eyes. To Captain Piett, she said, “Sir, if the Millennium Falcon lands on a larger asteroid, we could focus our laser cannons on that and blow it away. We’d take the Falcon out in the process. Can I order the TIE fighters back?”
Canonical/Non-Canonical Sources
Legends and Canon Star Wars Starships have a very different ratings. Although concussion missiles, proton torpedoes and even heavy turbolasers have similar levels of firepower to their counterparts, feats like these don't exist in Legends, while capital ship-grade shields have far better feats than canon ones.There are also ships that are almost completely different from Legends. For example, the Ebon Hawk doesn't exist in canon, the Victory-II has far less armament and firepower then its non-canon counterpart and the Praetor-class Star Battlecruiser has only been mentioned once in a re-canonized page of Complete Vehicles (2018). Here's a list of the ships with these kinds of problems.
- Ebon Hawk
- Victory-class Star Destroyer
- Praetor-class Star Battlecruiser
- Conqueror-class Star Destroyer
- Eclipse-class Dreadnought
- MC90 Star Cruiser (Unfortunately, I made this one)
- Pellaeon-class Star Destroyer
- Scythe-class Battle Cruiser
Recusant-class Light Destroyer (A canonical ship, but 99% of the page information is non-canon)This was firmly canonised in November.- Annihilator-class Starfighter
As further proof of these outdated guides, the Complete Vehicles (2018) reprints a scan (one of these) that says the LAAT/i's blaster cannons have a yield of 5x10^9 joules. In canon, the LAAT/i only has laser cannons/turrets and missiles.
Last edited:
