Star Wars - Kyle Katarn, Kyp Durron and Darth Caedus revision

[Vaner77]

The following revision is based almost entirely on the placement of Luke Skywalker, specificaly on the Dark Empire key.

Kyle Katarn and Kyp Durron's tier and attack potency should be changed from 5-B to 4-B, and their speed should be changed to Massively FTL+.

Kyle's case is pretty straightforward. He defeated Desann, someone who was able to contend with post-Dark Empire Luke Skywalker. What's particularly impressive is that just prior to his final battle with Kyle, Desann can be seen basking in the energy nexus of Yavin IV, meaning Kyle defeated a stronger version of Desann than the one Luke has struggled with.

Kyp was able to match Luke in a high intensity sparring match and was deemed, along with Kyle, equal if not superior to Viun Gaalan, someone who was able to briefly contend with Luke as of Fate of the Jedi.

Kyp looked dubiously at Luke's twin weapons and fell into a defensive posture. "The team will consist of one or two Masters, three or four Jedi Knights, and a native guide. They'll approach the Senate Building through the undercity." As Luke neared and began throwing probing attacks in quick succession, Kyp deflected them close to his body with equal speed and minimal movement. "When Jacen enters or leaves the building, they spring the trap. Coma gas and shock nets as the first wave, the Jedi making their direct assault immediately afterward." He stopped to stare intently at Luke.

Legacy of the Force: Fury

‘He [Viun Gaalan] was good; Luke gave him that. He might have been a match for an expert swordsmaster such as Kyp or Kyle Katarn. He would have been too much for a comparatively diffident duelist such as Cilghal, or even Luke as he had been back at Sinkhole Station, at low ebb in physical and mental strength.’
Fate of the Jedi: Backlash

Furthermore, I think Darth Caedus' tier should be changed from "4-B" to "At least 4-B, likely higher". He was stated repeatedly by Luke to be an extraordinary dangerous, and on at least two ocassions Luke freely acknowledged Caedus' ability to kill him:

If I lead this mission, I will strike at Jacen with hatred. One of us will die, and Ben will follow our mutual example and be lost to the dark side. Luke did not need the Force to show him the future to know that this was true.

Legacy of the Force: Fury

"Try-ahh." Caedus struggled to correct the StealthX as the damaged starboard wing cannon broke away. The escaping vapor was speckled with round droplets now. " Did you do that?"

Chunkk. The port cannon ripped free.

"You could retaliate," said Luke, "and we'll both end up dead. Come about and head back towards Fondor."

Legacy of the Force: Revelation

Legacy of the Force takes place two years before Fate of the Jedi, FotJ Luke is classified as "At least 4-A, likely higher".

I can go into more detailes later if necessary, but I think this should suffice for now.

 

[LordTracer]

Eventually there’s gonna be a revision dealing with these guys and more, but I agree with 4-B Kyle and Kyp.

Not in favor of Caedus having an ‘At least’ and ‘likely higher,’ simply because that’s not how 4-B works, but his justification should be changed a bit of acknowledge that he is stated to be equal if not superior to Luke.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I may not be as knowledgeable as Ancient Sith Scaling, but this... I honestly agree with this. Kyle and Kyp are consistently described as truly formidable. Kyp literally is also stated to be capable of holding his own against Cadeus by Luke himself, and was stated to be one of the few in the council who could.

Kyle while lower than Kyp I agree to being 4-B considering his fight versus an stronger Desann. This is going to lead into some interesting scaling in the future though.

 

[Jared1111]

Kyle CHADarn being 4-B? Yes please.

But yeah i agree with the scaling.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Not in favor of Caedus having an ‘At least’ and ‘likely higher,’ simply because that’s not how 4-B works, but his justification should be changed a bit of acknowledge that he is stated to be equal if not superior to Luke.

I feel like, those statements are iffy. Especially when you have stuff like Luke pinning Caedus to a chair with enough power that he's completely unable to move, or when a enhanced Caedus fighting a weakened Luke resulted in a draw iirc.

 

[LordTracer]

I feel like, those statements are iffy. Especially when you have stuff like Luke pinning Caedus to a chair with enough power that he's completely unable to move, or when a enhanced Caedus fighting a weakened Luke resulted in a draw iirc.

I’m going to list a bunch of quotes showing Caedus is relative if not superior in a different post, but you have that second thing reversed. Caedus was injured and Luke was bloodlusted.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Caedus was injured and Luke was bloodlusted.

I'm super confident that Luke was poisoned and injured when they fought in Inferno.

 

[LordTracer]

Caedus poisoned Luke during the fight, and Luke had barely healed from his fight with Lumiya.

But Luke was still in a bloodlusted state and Caedus was also injured (Luke landed a kidney strike on Caedus while he was off-guard, and he still held his own against this bloodlusted Luke for an extended period of time despite that).

Luke himself also stated that Caedus was extremely dangerous, and a mere reaction from an even weaker Caedus felt like a kick to the gut to Luke.

“Luke felt the wave of hatred flow through him. It was so strong it felt like a kick in the gut, and he wondered for an instant if Jacen had perfected some new Force attack.

But no, the undercurrent was of frustration, helplessness, even fear. It was no attack.” (Legacy of the Force: Fury)

 

[LordTracer]

Basically, both were injured (Caedus arguably moreso due to receiving a kidney strike before the duel properly started), but Luke also had a battle rage.

 

[Qawsedf234]

But Luke was still in a bloodlusted state

He was enraged, but not really bloodlusted in the sense of blind berserker fury.

both were injured (Caedus arguably moreso due to receiving a kidney strike before the duel properly started),

I'd def say Luke was in worse condition during the fight proper. Especially since Caedus was drawing power from the Kidney wound to amp himself.

There's also just multiple instances in that novel where Caedus attempts to block or resist Luke only to be overwhelmed or out maneuvered. He certainly scales but he is not stronger.

 

[LordTracer]

He was enraged, but not really bloodlusted in the sense of blind berserker fury.

The novel itself describes it as a battle-rage that he only broke out of due to Ben possibly falling to the dark side, so eh...

There’s a couple of instances in other novels where Jacen (pre-dark side) completely bodies Luke with illusions, but I suppose that’s more of Jacen being an all-around better Force user as opposed to being stronger.

As long as we agree that Jacen scales, I’m fine, him being stronger would be a tad inconsistent (LotF: Fury states that Jacen and Luke are matches while LotF: Invincible says Luke doesn’t know the extent of Jacen’s power).

 

[Vaner77]

I feel like, those statements are iffy. Especially when you have stuff like Luke pinning Caedus to a chair with enough power that he's completely unable to move, or when a enhanced Caedus fighting a weakened Luke resulted in a draw iirc.

Luke pinned Caedus when he had an element of surprise on his side, which is a huge advantage. We've seen Unu-Thul (a weaker Force wielder) nearly dominating Luke (a stronger Force wielder) with telepathy when he took Luke by surprise. Obviously a stronger Force wielder (Luke) would dominate a weaker one (Caedus) in a smiliar situation. Plus, it was Inferno Caedus, and it was made very clear that he gets more powerful with each day:

I’m more powerful than any of you.

It was a boy’s expression of anger, but it was true. And, as history history repeated itself beceuse it had no other choice, Jacen was more powerful than any of them, except Luke. And he was growing closer to Luke's strength by the day.

Legacy of the Force: Bloodlines

Luke realized Jacen's Force skills seemed to be getting stronger and more subtle every day, and he felt uneasy.

Legacy of the Force: Bloodlines

 

[Travgen]

I don't know why Luke jumps from 5-B to 4-B. Characters having these gaps are one of the most ridiculous things I've seen. Isn't a gap from 5-B to 4-B considered to be millions of times?

He was stated repeatedly by Luke to be an extraordinary dangerous, and on at least two ocassions Luke freely acknowledged Caedus' ability to kill him:

The first one is under the context that Luke's mindset is ****** up. He might lose exactly because he is striking Jacen with hatred.

The second time is under the context that Luke is damaging Caedus' starfighter. Luke is not attacking Caedus directly. If Caedus decided to do the same to Luke's ship, both of them would indeed be dead, and it would have nothing to do with their fighting prowess.

Desann and Kyle can somewhat scale to Luke.

Kyle would scale to that level anyway since his duel with Caedus taxed both of them.

Sparring matches should in no way be used as a reason behind a character scaling to another regardless of the characters in question being a "little more serious" than usual. Kyp realized a feat of power against the Dovin Basal that left Luke drained and this should be more than enough.

Galaan is within a stomp gap from Workan, who, in turn, can be one-shotted by Darish Vol, who declines to having only much of Luke Skywalker's power. I would change the wording. Galaan contended with a jobbing, holding back, playground-like mood Luke Skywalker.

About the Caedus vs. Luke discussion:

Luke being bloodlusted is a major weakness, not a strength. As Luke himself notes, he only started to think clearly after letting go and overcoming his emotional pain. Unlike Caedus, Luke can't harness pain. His chest injury from his fight against Lumiya is an actual hindrance, while Caedus benefits from pain and injuries. And if Luke's TK feat of pinning Caedus can be treated as "element of surprise", then 70% of Caedus' good hits against Luke can be treated as situational advantages since Caedus used the environment and traps to hit Luke, only managing to get some good hits in after Luke was poisoned.

In Revelation [one year later], Caedus acknowledges how powerful Luke actually is. His reaction is disbelief. Not a reaction of someone who had fought a Luke who was supposedly going all-out in a bloodlusted manner.

Caedus tried to block Luke in the Force and suddenly got an idea of just how much power Luke could muster. His seat shot forward, sheared off the runners, tipped to one side, and he hit the console at an angle before he could buffer the collision with the Force. Something cracked in his chest. Pain flared, stopping his breathing. Then he was aware of brilliant white light coming right at him. In the moments before he managed to veer off to starboard, al-most blinded, he got a glimpse of a StealthX's uneven out-line with two grappling arms extended, and the sense of a Jedi other than Luke.

A better way to scale Caedus is to use his supremacy quotes.

* Caedus was more powerful than Invencible Amped Jaina, whose power could not be distinguished from Luke's according to Caedus. The most notorious times Caedus could measure and feel Luke's power was in Revelation and when Luke activated his Force god mode in The Unifying Force. This is a better wank for Caedus than fighting a "bloodlusted" Luke and getting his ass kicked. In Invencible he gets a confirmed superiority over past accolades and feats performed by Luke.

* He's superior to every Jedi bar Luke.

* He's more powerful than Darish Vol and Darth Krayt, both of whom can fight and injure Abeloth.

* UnuThul could not TP Jacen despite having the combined energy of every Killik nest [they were fully powered at this point], having waged mental warfare against a Luke who had to root himself in the heart of the Force to negate UnuThul's telekinetic onslaughts [the nests were much weaker at this point due to Raynar slowly becoming more conflicted and the nests themselves being destroyed].

* He changed the currents of the skyriver, something Plagueis and Palpatine deemed impossible.

 

[LordTracer]

I don't know why Luke jumps from 5-B to 4-B. Characters having these gaps are one of the most ridiculous things I've seen. Isn't a gap from 5-B to 4-B considered to be millions of times?

Because he has feats of fighting 4-B people. That’s why he goes from 5-B to 4-B.

* He's more powerful than Darish Vol and Darth Krayt, both of whom can fight and injure Abeloth.

This quote came out before the first book in Fate of the Jedi even came out, so no, you can’t use that to say Caedus > Krayt.

 

[Travgen]

Because he has feats of fighting 4-B people. That’s why he goes from 5-B to 4-B.

This part I understand. What I don't understand is why someone like Dooku is considered to be millions of times weaker than Sidious.

This quote came out before the first book in Fate of the Jedi even came out, so no, you can’t use that to say Caedus > Krayt.

For a quote to "expire" it would have to be directly contradicted. That's why people can say that pre-Dark Empire Sidious can beat Valkorion, despite the fact that all of Sidious' statements comes from before Valkorion was even a thing. We also have to deal with the fact that Krayt is stronger post-resurrection when compared to his FOTJ counterpart, despite the likes of Airfryer III and Cade Skywalker giving him great fights. Pre-resurrection post-stasis Krayt is also weaker than Karness Muur, who declines to being weaker than Malak and other Exiles. If there is a weak link contradicting the continuity, this link is Darth Krayt.

 

[Cropfist]

Characters having these gaps are one of the most ridiculous things I've seen. Isn't a gap from 5-B to 4-B considered to be millions of times? What I don't understand is why someone like Dooku is considered to be millions of times weaker than Sidious.

Yeah, that's a whole problem in of itself. There are too many instances scaling to 4-B tiers for that huge gap.

 

[LordTracer]

This part I understand. What I don't understand is why someone like Dooku is considered to be millions of times weaker than Sidious.

Dooku (and several others) will most likely scale to Tier 4 in the near future, there’s a revision planned for that.

For a quote to "expire" it would have to be directly contradicted. That's why people can say that pre-Dark Empire Sidious can beat Valkorion, despite the fact that all of Sidious' statements comes from before Valkorion was even a thing.

Sidious’ statements come later in the chronology than Vitiate though.

We also have to deal with the fact that Krayt is stronger post-resurrection when compared to his FOTJ counterpart, despite the likes of Airfryer III and Cade Skywalker giving him great fights.

Where exactly is this stated? Also Cade was casually matched and even overwhelmed by the spirit of RotJ Luke Skywalker so like...

 

[Travgen]

Sidious’ statements come later in the chronology than Vitiate though.

Sidious ironically has an old databank statement over every modern Sith, binding every "practitioner of the Sith ways" from the PT up until the end of Legacy below him. The point is that you can bind characters that don't exist until something else directly contradicts that. Nothing contradicts Caedus' statement over Vol and Krayt.

Where exactly is this stated? Also Cade was casually matched and even overwhelmed by the spirit of RotJ Luke Skywalker so like...

I'm afraid Cade being that low only reinforces that Krayt is very inconsistent.

Krayt states that his powers multiplied compared to his impaired state. Krayt stated to have returned better than before. Krayt stated to be stronger than before. There are some statements from Jan Duursema as well.

In Fate of the Jedi, Krayt had been inherently weakened by Vong implants. Now Krayt has been reborn and his body is free of the restrictions imposed by the Vong implants. His ability with the Force is at least the same [Vong implants can dull and weaken your connection to the Force] and in no way, shape or form his Force powers have diminished since he finally got rid of what he considered to be a major weakness ever since it started affecting his body.

 

[LordTracer]

Krayt being that inconsistent would mean Caedus shouldn’t scale to him regardless. Iirc, Krayt was also challenged by Celeste Morne, who was overwhelmed by Darth Vader at his weakest.

If you want to argue Caedus scales to the FotJ crew, scaling him to Sarasu Taalon would be better since Taalon consistently has showings of being above Luke.

 

[Vaner77]

I don't know why Luke jumps from 5-B to 4-B. Characters having these gaps are one of the most ridiculous things I've seen. Isn't a gap from 5-B to 4-B considered to be millions of times?


The first one is under the context that Luke's mindset is ****** up. He might lose exactly because he is striking Jacen with hatred.

The second time is under the context that Luke is damaging Caedus' starfighter. Luke is not attacking Caedus directly. If Caedus decided to do the same to Luke's ship, both of them would indeed be dead, and it would have nothing to do with their fighting prowess.

Desann and Kyle can somewhat scale to Luke.

Kyle would scale to that level anyway since his duel with Caedus taxed both of them.

Sparring matches should in no way be used as a reason behind a character scaling to another regardless of the characters in question being a "little more serious" than usual. Kyp realized a feat of power against the Dovin Basal that left Luke drained and this should be more than enough.

Galaan is within a stomp gap from Workan, who, in turn, can be one-shotted by Darish Vol, who declines to having only much of Luke Skywalker's power. I would change the wording. Galaan contended with a jobbing, holding back, playground-like mood Luke Skywalker.

About the Caedus vs. Luke discussion:

Luke being bloodlusted is a major weakness, not a strength. As Luke himself notes, he only started to think clearly after letting go and overcoming his emotional pain. Unlike Caedus, Luke can't harness pain. His chest injury from his fight against Lumiya is an actual hindrance, while Caedus benefits from pain and injuries. And if Luke's TK feat of pinning Caedus can be treated as "element of surprise", then 70% of Caedus' good hits against Luke can be treated as situational advantages since Caedus used the environment and traps to hit Luke, only managing to get some good hits in after Luke was poisoned.

In Revelation [one year later], Caedus acknowledges how powerful Luke actually is. His reaction is disbelief. Not a reaction of someone who had fought a Luke who was supposedly going all-out in a bloodlusted manner.


A better way to scale Caedus is to use his supremacy quotes.

* Caedus was more powerful than Invencible Amped Jaina, whose power could not be distinguished from Luke's according to Caedus. The most notorious times Caedus could measure and feel Luke's power was in Revelation and when Luke activated his Force god mode in The Unifying Force. This is a better wank for Caedus than fighting a "bloodlusted" Luke and getting his ass kicked. In Invencible he gets a confirmed superiority over past accolades and feats performed by Luke.

* He's superior to every Jedi bar Luke.

* He's more powerful than Darish Vol and Darth Krayt, both of whom can fight and injure Abeloth.

* UnuThul could not TP Jacen despite having the combined energy of every Killik nest [they were fully powered at this point], having waged mental warfare against a Luke who had to root himself in the heart of the Force to negate UnuThul's telekinetic onslaughts [the nests were much weaker at this point due to Raynar slowly becoming more conflicted and the nests themselves being destroyed].

* He changed the currents of the skyriver, something Plagueis and Palpatine deemed impossible.

Luke has already struck at Caedus in hatred when he was, you know, in a "battle-rage". And he won. So...

Unless you suggest that Luke wouldn't try to defend himself from Caedus' retaliation for... reasons, it means that Luke wouldn't be able to stop him. So yeah, it does relate to power.

Sparring matches should be taken with a grain of salt, true, but completely disregarding them is an example of cherry picking. Unless you can prove that one of the combatants held back to a higher extent than the other, sparrings are usable.
Kyp's feat from NJO is already in his profile, so I haven't seen the need to bring that up.

Yeah, no. Gaalan performed against Luke way better than Workan did. Workan being higher in the Tribe's hierarchy means jack shit.
If the likes of Gaalan and Workan were able to give Luke a fight, it means that Vol is actually pretty close in power to Luke.
Luke jobbing against Gaalan is baseless. He was, however, jobbing against Workan.

Based on what? You don't need to have a clear mind in order to retain combat prowess. There are countless examples of fighters going into a berzerker like rage and not only retaining their combat preformance, but actually going beyond that.
Luke's chest injury was healed. Barely, yeah, but still healed. Luke didn't enter the fight weakened, if that's what you're suggesting.
Luke pinning Caedus outside of combat situation and Caedus cleverly using environment in a middle of a fight are two completely different things. Luke immediately noticed the Vongs torture devices in the room, there was nothing stopping him from utilising them to his own advantage.

And what is this quote supposed to prove? That Luke is Caedus' superior? Yes I already knew that, thank you very much. And it in no way detracts from Luke's own assesment of Caedus' capabilities. Plus, Invincable Caedus would be stronger than Revelation Caedus anyway.

 

[Travgen]

Luke has already struck at Caedus in hatred when he was, you know, in a "battle-rage". And he won. So...

I'll expand on this below.

Unless you suggest that Luke wouldn't try to defend himself from Caedus' retaliation for... reasons, it means that Luke wouldn't be able to stop him. So yeah, it does relate to power.

The full context is here:

Luke's StealthX nudged him again from behind-how? Caedus couldn't see. Force push? Something metallic inside the fuselage shrieked. He had a sense of someone rummag-ing furiously in the drives as if looking for a dropped hydrospanner, throwing fragments into the coils. He's ripping the thing apart...

Caedus tried to block Luke in the Force and suddenly got an idea of just how much power Luke could muster. His seat shot forward, sheared off the runners, tipped to one side, and he hit the console at an angle before he could buffer the collision with the Force. Something cracked in his chest. Pain flared, stopping his breathing. Then he was aware of brilliant white light coming right at him. In the moments before he managed to veer off to starboard, al-most blinded, he got a glimpse of a StealthX's uneven out-line with two grappling arms extended, and the sense of a Jedi other than Luke.

It can't relate to power because Caedus just tried to compete with Luke's TK and he failed miserably. He failed to even slow down Luke's Force wave so it can't be related to power.

Sparring matches should be taken with a grain of salt, true, but completely disregarding them is an example of cherry picking. Unless you can prove that one of the combatants held back to a higher extent than the other, sparrings are usable.
Kyp's feat from NJO is already in his profile, so I haven't seen the need to bring that up.

It's a sparring match. You don't have Plo Koon above Yoda for the same reason you don't have S3 Anakin above Sidious and Yoda just because he's superior to the Hero of Umbara. Sparrings are usable to gauge technical skill.

Yeah, no. Gaalan performed against Luke way better than Workan did. Workan being higher in the Tribe's hierarchy means jack shit.
If the likes of Gaalan and Workan were able to give Luke a fight, it means that Vol is actually pretty close in power to Luke.
Luke jobbing against Gaalan is baseless. He was, however, jobbing against Workan.

The position of High Lord of the Lost Tribe is not a political one. They ascend into that position with merit and superior usage of the Force. Workan is not only much more powerful than any Lord, he is the most powerful High Lord as well.

And this is how Workan compares himself to Darish Vol:

But if she knew the Sith were here on Coruscant-

No. If something happened and his Master found that Workan had not warned him, Workan would not live long enough to draw breath to apologize. It had to be now.

If Vol can basically stomp and kill Workan before the latter can even draw breath to apologize-with Vol being weaker than Luke-why would that benefit Galaan in any way, who is at the bottom of the pecking order? What you think about the Lost Tribe hierarchy is one thing, what the story conveys is another.

Based on what? You don't need to have a clear mind in order to retain combat prowess. There are countless examples of fighters going into a berzerker like rage and not only retaining their combat preformance, but actually going beyond that.

A Luke who was much more controlled no-sold Caedus' TK, while a troubled angry Luke performed far worse.
And based on this:

Yoda had told Luke that electrical shocks, applied at different intensities and at irregular but frequent intervals, would prevent a Jedi from concentrating, from channeling the Force. They could render a Jedi helpless.

But Yoda had never told Luke that emotional shocks could do the same thing.

They could. And just as no amount of self-control would allow a Jedi to ignore the effects of electrical shocks on his body, neither could self-control keep Luke safely out of his memories. Every few moments a memory, freshly applied like a current-bearing wire on his skin, would yank him out of the here and now and propel him into the recent past.

Boarding the Anakin Solo. Finding Jacen torturing—torturing—Luke’s only child, his son Ben. The duel that followed, Luke against the nephew he’d once loved…

Luke's chest injury was healed. Barely, yeah, but still healed. Luke didn't enter the fight weakened, if that's what you're suggesting.

It is a hindrance because Caedus can easily exploit it, not because his chest scar prevented him from moving or something like that.

But Jacen thrived on pain, fed on it to make himself stronger and faster. He simply completed his pivot and landed a rib-crunching roundhouse.

Luke stumbled back, his chest filled with fire. Jacen had caught him on the barely healed scar from his first fight with Lumiya, and now his breath was coming in short painful gasps.

Good, Luke thought. This was supposed to hurt.

He came up under Luke's guard, holding his weapon with one hand and driving a Force-enhanced punch into Luke's ribs with the other, striking for the same place he had kicked earlier. Luke's chest exploded into pain, and he found himself croaking instead of breathing.

Luke pinning Caedus outside of combat situation and Caedus cleverly using environment in a middle of a fight are two completely different things. Luke immediately noticed the Vongs torture devices in the room, there was nothing stopping him from utilising them to his own advantage.

I didn't make that argument on the sense that Caedus was dumb, just that he had to rely on external factors to fight Luke. While that's true for the torture device, Luke had no previous knowledge about the layout of Caedus' ship and the traps therein.

And what is this quote supposed to prove? That Luke is Caedus' superior? Yes I already knew that, thank you very much. And it in no way detracts from Luke's own assesment of Caedus' capabilities. Plus, Invincable Caedus would be stronger than Revelation Caedus anyway.

I made a case for Invencible Caedus being superior to past versions of Luke. Caedus can scale to a full power Luke, but what he can't do is greatly benefit from their fight in Inferno.

 

[Travgen]

Krayt being that inconsistent would mean Caedus shouldn’t scale to him regardless. Iirc, Krayt was also challenged by Celeste Morne, who was overwhelmed by Darth Vader at his weakest.

In this case, his strongest form will be his FOTJ version?

 

[LordTracer]

In this case, his strongest form will be his FOTJ version?

Based on feats alone, definitely.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Um... Is there anything else that needs to be discussed involving this ?

 

[LordTracer]

Tbh Kyp needs two keys, if not three, because he’s consistently 4-B even during the Jedi Academy Trilogy/I, Jedi.

 

[Vaner77]

It can't relate to power because Caedus just tried to compete with Luke's TK and he failed miserably. He failed to even slow down Luke's Force wave so it can't be related to power.

So I guess Luke doesn't know what he's talking about, right? He was trying to sweet talk Caedus? We're supposed to ignore the fact that Caedus doesn't even need to directly attack Luke to cause him harm:

Luke felt the wave of hatred flow through him. It was so strong it felt like a kick in the gut, and he wondered for an instant if Jacen had perfected some new Force attack.

But no, the undercurrent was of frustration, helplessness, even fear. It was no attack.

No offence but I'll take Luke's words over yours.

It's a sparring match. You don't have Plo Koon above Yoda for the same reason you don't have S3 Anakin above Sidious and Yoda just because he's superior to the Hero of Umbara. Sparrings are usable to gauge technical skill.

Yoda was stated at least a dozen times as the best duelist in the order, with only Windu and Dooku being any competition to him, so we can safely dismiss Plo supposedly beating Yoda as an outlier, especially after seeing Plo having his hands full with the likes of Savage Opress. Plus, Plo has never been compared to Yoda in the same manner Kyp was compared to Luke. Consistency is a thing.
Don't know who the Hero of Umbara is so I'll take your word for it.
All technical skill in the galaxy won't mean a squat if you can't physicaly keep up with your oponnent. My point still stands.

The position of High Lord of the Lost Tribe is not a political one. They ascend into that position with merit and superior usage of the Force. Workan is not only much more powerful than any Lord, he is the most powerful High Lord as well.

...and physical attractivness. Funny how you forgot to mention it.
Seeing as Workan ascended to the rank of High Lord only after Sarasu Taalon's death you are left with one of two options:
1. During his very brief carrier as a High Lord, Workan experienced an astronomical power growth witch elevated him from the "bottom of the pecking order" to being far more powerful than the fellow High Lord Sashal.
2. He already was this powerful while still being at the "bottom of the pecking order" and simply waited for an empty seat in the circle of High Lords to fill in.
Workan's power growth was nowhere mentioned nor implied, making option 1, at best, highly unlikely. That leaves option 2, and if Workan was able to be this powerful as a Lord, why not Gaalan? Long story short, titles mean nothing.

What you think about the Lost Tribe hierarchy is one thing, what the story conveys is another.

Right back at ya. The story paints a blatantly clear picture; Gaalan performed better than Workan against Luke, therefore the fact that Workan sees himself as an insect in comparison to Vol doesn't necessarly apply to Gaalan. And since Gaalan is, at best, equal to Kyle and Kyp, it means Kyle and Kyp can hold their own against Luke as of FotJ.

A Luke who was much more controlled no-sold Caedus' TK, while a troubled angry Luke performed far worse.

Luke hasn't no-sold anything, Caedus didn't attack, he was defending himself and got overpowered beceuse Luke was more powerful. Once again, it was clearly established that Caedus doesn't need to even attack Luke directly to cause him harm.
Literally nothing in your quote applies to the fight. Luke sitting on his ass and actively reflecting on past events doesn't translate into him being hindered during the fight itself.

It is a hindrance because Caedus can easily exploit it, not because his chest scar prevented him from moving or something like that.

Fair enough, but to capitalize on this Caedus needed to breach Luke's guard, which in itself is a feat for Caedus.

I didn't make that argument on the sense that Caedus was dumb, just that he had to rely on external factors to fight Luke. While that's true for the torture device, Luke had no previous knowledge about the layout of Caedus' ship and the traps therein.

No, it means Caedus is more aware of his surroundings and is more inclined to use them. He was landing strikes on Luke on his own as well.
What does the layout of the ship had to do with anything? The entirety of the fight took place in the same room and Luke immediately identified the objects in the room. And what traps? There were no traps that Caedus prepared in advance, he was literally just throwing whatever he had at his disposal. It's a tactic that Luke came up against and himself used many times in the past.

 

[Vaner77]

Um... Is there anything else that needs to be discussed involving this ?

I think we are all in agreement regarding Kyle and Kyp, and I don't care about Caedus' placement enough to continue arguing for him.
@Antvasima can the changes be applied?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Caedus scales to Luke enough to be in the same tier, he's just weaker. Same with Kyle. Kyp is weird in that force wise he's comparable/stronger but he doesn't have he same level of dueling feats that Luke has.

 

[LordTracer]

Kyle is basically like Caedus is to Luke. Comparable, but still weaker (although Caedus was horribly injured to the point that he shouldn’t have been able to stand when Kyle was pressuring him).

Kyp is just on the 4-B level, he’s got far too much going for him (Luke stating Kyp was his greatest enemy while under Exar Kun’s tutelage, Kyp throwing Luke across the room, being stronger than Anakin Solo, who was hailed as the “next Luke Skywalker,” etc.)

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I agree with Tracer. Kyp was 4-B way too much for it to be disregarded at any stage. Kyp is literally also compared to Yoda really fricking early in his career, and depending on if Vader places in an lower end of 4-B after the scaling is re-evaluated, it would be even more blatant.

 

[Travgen]

So I guess Luke doesn't know what he's talking about, right? He was trying to sweet talk Caedus? We're supposed to ignore the fact that Caedus doesn't even need to directly attack Luke to cause him harm:

You don't have to be even close in power to someone to affect them with Force powers.

What is the context of the scene? Does Luke have a barrier up? Is that barrier passive, intermediate or advanced? Is Luke trying to negate Caedus' attack or was he affected because he didn't understand the attack? I'm not really familiar with this part.

No offence but I'll take Luke's words over yours.

I am quoting what the books are conveying about the story.

Yoda was stated at least a dozen times as the best duelist in the order, with only Windu and Dooku being any competition to him, so we can safely dismiss Plo supposedly beating Yoda as an outlier, especially after seeing Plo having his hands full with the likes of Savage Opress. Plus, Plo has never been compared to Yoda in the same manner Kyp was compared to Luke. Consistency is a thing.
Don't know who the Hero of Umbara is so I'll take your word for it.
All technical skill in the galaxy won't mean a squat if you can't physicaly keep up with your oponnent. My point still stands.

Yes, Yoda is the best duelist in the Order. My point is that sparring matches are just that: sparring matches. They are not supposed to be a serious contest of augmentation or Force powers, otherwise they wouldn't be a sparring match. It's not an outlier because you're going from the premise that sparring matches can be used as a consistent way to gauge the parity between the two combatants, which is not the case. Even serious fights can be contested on that matter, let alone sparring matches. The Hero of Umbara is from Clone Wars Adventures, he defeated Yoda, Windu and Anakin in sparring matches.

Physically keeping up with your opponent in a serious scenario is one thing, crossing swords on a sunny Sunday of practice is a completely different thing.

...and physical attractivness. Funny how you forgot to mention it.
Seeing as Workan ascended to the rank of High Lord only after Sarasu Taalon's death you are left with one of two options:
1. During his very brief carrier as a High Lord, Workan experienced an astronomical power growth witch elevated him from the "bottom of the pecking order" to being far more powerful than the fellow High Lord Sashal.
2. He already was this powerful while still being at the "bottom of the pecking order" and simply waited for an empty seat in the circle of High Lords to fill in.
Workan's power growth was nowhere mentioned nor implied, making option 1, at best, highly unlikely. That leaves option 2, and if Workan was able to be this powerful as a Lord, why not Gaalan? Long story short, titles mean nothing.

I didn't mention that because I didn't know that. I've talked with someone familiar with both characters and their respective books; Both Workan and Galaan are described as being attractive fellas-Galaan more so than Workan-but nonetheless attractive. Then you have a statement from Sashal clearly affirming that merit is what enables people to rise in the culture. Then Vestara Khai reaffirming that any Keshiri could rise according to his ability with the Force.

Workan has a small appearance in 41 ABY and three years later, in 44 ABY, he's become a High Lord. Did he grow in power? Was he already strong? I don't know. What I know is that nothing proves either.

Given there are two statements from two people that merit and power is more important-and one that attractiveness can play a role-I'll go with the merit and Force power statements.

Galaan has no direct statements nor implied power in the story over High Lords, nor does any Lord for that matter. Feel free to expand upon this if you have any quotes.

Right back at ya. The story paints a blatantly clear picture; Gaalan performed better than Workan against Luke, therefore the fact that Workan sees himself as an insect in comparison to Vol doesn't necessarly apply to Gaalan. And since Gaalan is, at best, equal to Kyle and Kyp, it means Kyle and Kyp can hold their own against Luke as of FotJ.

Luke was jobbing, so I really don't know how to quantify him in this situation.
Itt applies. Abeloth scales to being capable of destroying the galaxy over time. Under the context of both the wiki's tiering system and the books, Vol would one-shot regardless.

Luke hasn't no-sold anything, Caedus didn't attack, he was defending himself and got overpowered beceuse Luke was more powerful. Once again, it was clearly established that Caedus doesn't need to even attack Luke directly to cause him harm.
Literally nothing in your quote applies to the fight. Luke sitting on his ass and actively reflecting on past events doesn't translate into him being hindered during the fight itself.

Caedus failed to counter and even slow down Luke's TK wave. As such, he was not only overpowered but also completely overwhelmed. I think your "punch in the gut" lacked context and more information, so I'll wait for those to judge if this is the case. I've already provided quotes and reasons as to why Luke was hindered during the fight. You have a quote from Fury that I have already provided. You have Luke performing far better while in a better state of mind. You have a literal mention that Luke was enjoying the pain of being hit in his chest injury, which doesn't sound too mentally stable to me.

No, it means Caedus is more aware of his surroundings and is more inclined to use them. He was landing strikes on Luke on his own as well.
What does the layout of the ship had to do with anything? The entirety of the fight took place in the same room and Luke immediately identified the objects in the room. And what traps? There were no traps that Caedus prepared in advance, he was literally just throwing whatever he had at his disposal. It's a tactic that Luke came up against and himself used many times in the past.

No, it means Caedus is more aware of his surroundings and is more inclined to use them. He was landing strikes on Luke on his own as well.

I just said that the fight took place in Caedus' ship. Obviously he is more aware than Luke. Yes, Caedus manages to hit Luke once near the chest. This is the only physical strike Caedus manages to hit before poisoning Luke with a torture device.

What does the layout of the ship had to do with anything? The entirety of the fight took place in the same room and Luke immediately identified the objects in the room. And what traps? There were no traps that Caedus prepared in advance, he was literally just throwing whatever he had at his disposal. It's a tactic that Luke came up against and himself used many times in the past.

Layout means:
noun - the way in which the parts of something are arranged or laid out.
"changing the layout of the ground floor"

The position of things inside the room is what I meant. Luke identified the objects near Ben iirc, do you have a citation of him specifically knowing about the torture device? Traps as in environmental traps; things Caedus knew could be used against Luke that were inside the room. Caedus making use of the environment definitely makes him a smarter fighter. What I'm putting into question is the fact that Luke doesn't have to rely on the environment to injure Caedus, while Caedus was at Ben's mercy despite poisoning Luke, growing stronger with injuries throughout the fight and Luke being in a bad state of mind.

 

[Travgen]

Caedus scales to Luke enough to be in the same tier, he's just weaker. Same with Kyle. Kyp is weird in that force wise he's comparable/stronger but he doesn't have he same level of dueling feats that Luke has.

Pretty much.

 

[LordTracer]

Luke was jobbing, so I really don't know how to quantify him in this situation.

Okay, can people please stop using “jobbing” as if it’s an actual point? It’s basically just headcanon to say someone’s weaker than normal just because someone could hold their own against them.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Okay, can people please stop using “jobbing” as if it’s an actual point?

It is an actual point. There's plenty of examples in Star Wars of Forcr Users being notably incompetent or struggling with things they shouldn't. They are incredibly inconsistent especially in Legends.

 

[LordTracer]

I assume you’re referring to things like them struggling against Mandalorians or droids, right? (Even though Mandalorians consistently fight Jedi and it’s a pretty major part of their history).

The situation here was about other Force users and members of the Lost Tribe of Sith, so it’s not the same.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I assume you’re referring to things like them struggling against Mandalorians or droids, right?

Droids, animals, Bounty Hunters, and baseline humans and near-humans. Blaster bolts regularly kill or threaten even high level force users, Vader has been beaten by falling rocks before, and Obi-Wan has been linked by Cad Bane weall over half a dozen times.

Jobbing exists. The franchise isn't nearly consistent enough to imply that it doesn't. Caedus will still scale to Luke, but to imply that Luke isn't stupid and doesn't use the full extent of his power is ignoring a lot of the canon.

 

[LordTracer]

I’m not even talking about Caedus right now though?

 

[Qawsedf234]

I thought you were applying the jobbing stuff for both Galaan and Caedus. Not just Galaan.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Kueller has 3-4 statements comparing him to Palpatine in the force. Galaan is hyped to be an equal threat comparable to the Emperor [which at bare mnimum would be Palpatine, at high ball, Reborn Palpatine. So whether holding back or not, doesn't really take away from their placement due to their feats and statements being in the 4-B tier

Also, I agree with everything but the Anakin Solo comparison. They literally said at the time of Stars , Durron was 'almost' as strong in the force as Solo was, Kyp wasn't stronger than him. This is an Anakin before he reached his prime though. He also had much more potential than all of the other Solos at the time, including Jacen.

 

[Travgen]

Kueller has 3-4 statements comparing him to Palpatine in the force. Galaan is hyped to be an equal threat comparable to the Emperor [which at bare mnimum would be Palpatine, at high ball, Reborn Palpatine. So whether holding back or not, doesn't really take away from their placement due to their feats and statements being in the 4-B tier

I'm not disagreeing with the tiers themselves, I'm disagreeing with the reasoning behind them. Inferno Caedus should scale to Luke, but it can't be under the pretext that Caedus is nearly as powerful as Luke because he simply isn't. Galaan doesn't scale to Vol, and what the OP is trying to do is scale Galaan to FOTJ Luke [who scales to Abeloth], and update Kyp and Kyle using Luke's fight against Galaan as his main contention point. He apparently wants to update them all to galactic level or, in the wiki's case, multi-solar system level. Even if Luke wasn't jobbing, I would argue against this feat in the same way I would argue against powerless Korriban spirits stomping and nearly killing Palpatine. It's just continuity-breaking.

Galaan is not hyped up to be anything. He's just there with that strike team because Luke has to fight something. He isn't a big bad. He isn't even present on sources outside of that book unlike every other Sidious-level Force user out there.