[STAFF INPUT PLEASE] Changing Pokemon 'Protagonist' pages

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

holy shit he’s not even addressing peoples’ points anymore

 

[Random-Helper323]

Let's not get stirred up, okay?

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Idk? lost in translation

I'll try to explain myself better then.

I just dont think 'we need to index everything' means we have to try and make it about the canon character.

I thought the point of your CRT was to make the pages about the Player?

And yeah, do i honestly have to describe why Pokemon is not SMT??? Ive literally already explained it multiple times above.

I think you should because I still don't see why they're different.

 

[Random-Helper323]

We would probably be best served looking to existing RPG character pages for precedent here.

Spoiler: RPG Protagonists

Dragonborn

Cyrodil Champion

Chosen Undead

Minecraft Player

Digimon World Player

Joker

Overall, the precedent seems to be that customizable characters get access to just about everything they can access in the game.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Tbf Pokémon set a precedent with Red's team that other RPGs haven’t.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Tbf Pokémon set a precedent with Red's team that other RPGs haven’t.

That page should list Espeon as well, actually.

Also, it's clearly based on his appearance as an NPC in the sequels.

Big detail, it lists him as having beaten Mewtwo.

 

[Jinx666]

I thought the point of your CRT was to make the pages about the Player?

It is.

To that extent, we still should be scrutinising what we actually give them. I personally think we should exclude every Pokemon they cant naturally obtain in game without trading (in either versions). Thats probably what got lost in translations

I think you should because I still don't see why they're different.

Pokemon and Personas are different in general, Pokemon are separate creatures that all have variation from one another in their own species, while Personas are manifestations of psyche/demonic creatures.
They can usually only use one at a time and require a summoning, while Pokemon themselves are akin to pets that you train and customize with that.
Witht aht being said, giving a Persona protagonist the ability to use all accessible Personas is fine, theres a canonical power in-lore that tells us they can use every persona essentially. While Pokemon only has the general Pokedex (which we can use), while NatDex stuff is purely put in to appease cross-console trading, and a lot of pokemon arent naturally accessible in canon to the player. Like, its ridiculous to think legendaries for example are canonically given to the player by trading,

So yh, imo we should only be using the Pokemon you can naturally get in the games

 

[Random-Helper323]

I notice that Red is scaled for beating Mewtwo, the optional post-game boss. That does help other player characters get their scaling too.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

I notice that Red is scaled for beating Mewtwo, the optional post-game boss. That does help other player characters get their scaling too.

So is Ethan

 

[Random-Helper323]

So is Ethan

Ethan doesn't seem to have a profile, but yes, he should scale based on his if Red does. I know many fans disagree with that but usually it's based on nothing but a double standard to make Red the strongest.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

I dunno where we are exactly at the moment, but my two cents are;

• Yes, they should all get everything available to them in game. I think it's just a biiit silly that we don't already do this for some reason. I cannot think of another series where this isn't the case
• National Dex stuff should probably be it's own key, for the sake of organization if nothing else. While they can technically get the whole National Dex after the first gym or so, I think it'd be better to have that be it's own key
• I think giving them names like "The Player (Pokémon [Game Title]" or "The Rival (Pokémon [Game Title]" is a fine idea. Just include their canon names in the Name section. Like here or here
• I totally disagree with the notion of using Masters to decide the "canonical" protag for specific games. It can very clearly be either one in canon, as depicted in the animated shorts, that one music video, TCG or whatever. Masters is just one example of many

I do think it's a bit disappointing that they end up being a mishmash of every Pokémon available in that game, but that's just how it be.

Poor Victor/Gloria though sheesh

But I do think there's some value in it. They're essentially repping the entire Pokémon bestiary up that point in the series. Do keep in mind that I'm not viewing this for powerscaling, but for indexing purposes, as the site intends.

EDIT: I think Red is a special case due to his status as a hybrid of NPC and player character. Luckily we have this guy who is the same thing. I recommend treating Red as a typical protag, but maybe with keys for his specific NPC teams?

 

[Random-Helper323]

Best way to power scale them is already done in Red's page, scaled based on things the character has fought against.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Best way to power scale them is already done in Red's page, scaled based on things the character has fought against.

I agree wholeheartedly

For example, Ethan fights a Pidgeotto (Falkner) as his first evolved Pokemon, then Gengar (Morty) later down the line, then it gets into Lugia and Groudon and Mewtwo towards the endgame

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Ethan doesn't seem to have a profile, but yes, he should scale based on his if Red does. I know many fans disagree with that but usually it's based on nothing but a double standard to make Red the strongest.

Ta-daaaa!

 

[ShockingPsychic]

I was working on an Ethan profile a looong time ago, may be interesting to see what I had cooking

 

[Random-Helper323]

I agree wholeheartedly

For example, Ethan fights a Pidgeotto (Falkner) as his first evolved Pokemon, then Gengar (Morty) later down the line, then it gets into Lugia and Groudon and Mewtwo towards the endgame

Plus Lugia and Ho-Oh should be higher than they're currently placed, but it's Gen 2 so it'll be hard to get that done.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

It is.

Ok.

To that extent, we still should be scrutinising what we actually give them. I personally think we should exclude every Pokemon they cant naturally obtain in game without trading (in either versions). Thats probably what got lost in translations

I still think we should include trades because trading is an in-universe thing, and it's often required to complete the Regional Dex (let alone the National Dex).

Pokemon and Personas are different in general, Pokemon are separate creatures that all have variation from one another in their own species, while Personas are manifestations of psyche/demonic creatures.
They can usually only use one at a time and require a summoning, while Pokemon themselves are akin to pets that you train and customize with that.
Witht aht being said, giving a Persona protagonist the ability to use all accessible Personas is fine, theres a canonical power in-lore that tells us they can use every persona essentially.

Sure, but the more mainline Megami Tensei games have you recruit Demons to join your party.

While Pokemon only has the general Pokedex (which we can use), while NatDex stuff is purely put in to appease cross-console trading, and a lot of pokemon arent naturally accessible in canon to the player. Like, its ridiculous to think legendaries for example are canonically given to the player by trading,

I don't think it's that weird. Mythical Pokemon are often just delivered to you in the mail in newer games.

So yh, imo we should only be using the Pokemon you can naturally get in the games

I disagree, but I'll see what everyone else thinks.

 

[Jinx666]

Yeah, Red is an exception as the only character whose an actual NPC representation of a protagonist. I still think that maybe you could make a separate profile for the Player from the original games in that case (Since they can still stray from Red), and also give it the addition of Leaf, but atp it doesnt even really need to be a profile thats made.

As much as i will admit Ethan is advertised a lot more than Lyra, they still haven't reached the same NPC status, so its still better to include both players and use the HG/SS versions of them i reckon

Either way, they should be called The Player if people are genuinely sticking to compositing everything you can do in the games. And any NPC iterations of the character like in Masters EX would probably be their own profile that we can add a disambiguation box above. These are the characters that are strayed the most from their mainline since theyre actually made into NPC characters.

 

[Jinx666]

Idon't think it's that weird. Mythical Pokemon are often just delivered to you in the mail in newer games.

Laziness of current events aside, It doesnt really make sense lore-wise why these legendaries would be just haphazardly traded to the player. I just cant see it being 'canon' in any capacity for like, the player to have obtained an Arceus from Wonder Trade or smthn just because its technically possible.

I feel we are taking things that are added in the game for the sake of being user-friendly a bit too literally, even if its for indexing purposes. If we do restrict this, then each Player profile can actually have a somewhat unique roster to one another that merits making them a page imo. At the same time, i wont be making any of these profiles, i just think we need to change how the Protagonist profiles are being done right now

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

No one cares about the uniqueness, we want them to be indexed properly with their full arsenals like every other video game character ever should have.

 

[Jinx666]

No one cares about the uniqueness, we want them to be indexed properly with their full arsenals like every other video game character ever should have.

Im not opposed to 'indexing' them properly, but it gets to a point when people are advocating for giving every protag legendaries/mythicals they cant naturally obtain in the actual game itself (not even with actual in-game events), and we're just assuming they can canonically get their hands on anything via global/wonder trade (which actively relies on other players, as opposed to NPCs). Trade Evolutions ig, fair enough? but there needs to be some differentiating factors.

Also dupe pages arent exactly needed just because its under the guise of a different character. It gets redundant and you question why you'd need separate profiles for them in general if theyre all just gonna have the exact same kit as the trainer prior to them, + a whole extra pokedex.
It might be cleaner to actually use the protag profiles to index separate pokedexes as a whole too. That gives a lot more general information

Im not making these pages tho so go wild ig

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Im not opposed to 'indexing' them properly, but it gets to a point when people are advocating for giving every protag legendaries/mythicals they cant naturally obtain in the actual game itself (not even with actual in-game events), and we're just assuming they can canonically get their hands on anything via wonder trade (which actively relies on other players, as opposed to NPCs)

Also dupe pages arent exactly needed just because its under the guise of a different character. It gets redundant and you question why you'd need separate profiles for them in general if theyre all just gonna have the exact same kit as the trainer prior to them, + a whole extra pokedex.

If you have problems with pages that share a lot of the same stuff and have very minor changes between them then you must despite the Halo and Red vs Blue profile.

 

[Jinx666]

If you have problems with pages that share a lot of the same stuff and have very minor changes between them then you must despite the Halo and Red vs Blue profile.

I dont care abt either of those franchises so i wouldnt know

At the same time im not gonna be using those as inspirations if you're implying theres an issue for them. Both are vastly different genres compared to Pokemon, and we cant say its okay to take their example on how we set a precedent for Pokemon. If anything, we want to maximise the verse and the information as much as we can that suits it.

As much as idc about making protag profiles, if we are going to include them, we should maybe go over what they can do/catch in their actual games naturally as opposed to the pokegened stuff.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I dont care abt either of those franchises so i wouldnt know

At the same time im not gonna be using those as inspirations if you're implying theres an issue for them. Both are vastly different genres compared to Pokemon, and we cant say its okay to take their example on how we set a precedent for Pokemon. If anything, we want to maximise the verse and the information as much as we can that suits it.

My point is that this seems to be specifically just a you problem. No one else cares that they all have a lot of similar Pokémon or items since you can acquire them in the games, so that's just how the cookie crumbles.

 

[Jinx666]

My point is that this seems to be specifically just a you problem. No one else cares that they all have a lot of similar Pokémon or items since you can acquire them in the games, so that's just how the cookie crumbles.

This isnt a problem for me in general. Id rather we didnt need to make these profiles in the first place personally, just seems like we're giving ppl reign to make Pokemon OCs. At the same time, with profiles already being made that try to swing it certain ways, then there needed to be a thread made

Doesnt mean i cant suggest ways to optimize how we incorporate these profiles, i've explained why i think its farfetched to include absolutely every Natdex pokemon automatically in their kits, and ive explained why it may be advantageous to restrict their maxes to Pokemon there are natural ways of obtaining coded in-game.

If the way to acquire some of these pokemon 'legally' is by Pokegening and obtaining them on the global trade for like, a Level 1-5 Reshiram from characters who are essentially also player characters, and these Pokemon actually affect the Tiering of the character while having no significance to anything in the plot then maybe there needs to be scrutiny

 

[Lou_change]

Part of me just wants to suggest calem/serena as the profile names for example since having at least 12 different profiles for the Pokémon named player just from the main games is not fun

 

[ShockingPsychic]

just seems like we're giving ppl reign to make Pokemon OCs

How is this any different from the Dragonborn, for instance? Lots of people make Dragonborn OCs. Everything about that guy is customizable, even more so than the Pokémon protags. But they still have a fully fleshed out profile

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Laziness of current events aside, It doesnt really make sense lore-wise why these legendaries would be just haphazardly traded to the player. I just cant see it being 'canon' in any capacity for like, the player to have obtained an Arceus from Wonder Trade or smthn just because its technically possible.

I feel we are taking things that are added in the game for the sake of being user-friendly a bit too literally, even if its for indexing purposes. If we do restrict this, then each Player profile can actually have a somewhat unique roster to one another that merits making them a page imo. At the same time, i wont be making any of these profiles, i just think we need to change how the Protagonist profiles are being done right now

As @XSOULOFCINDERX said, uniqueness is not the goal; it's to properly index what the player's arsenal is. We are an idexing site after all.

Plus, even including the National Dex, the various Player pages will be unique in their own ways since they won't have access to Pokemon from later generations (with the exception of remakes, but those could be different keys or even profiles depending on how we want to do this), they won't have items from later gens too (or even unique items from earlier gens), and they won't have moves from later gens. The Switch games won't have Pokemon and moves from earlier gens since they aren't obtainable or tradable to these games, for example.

 

[Jinx666]

How is this any different from the Dragonborn, for instance? Lots of people make Dragonborn OCs. Everything about that guy is customizable, even more so than the Pokémon protags. But they still have a fully fleshed out profile

Cause at least their tools/arsenals are actual powers/weaponry THEY USE as opposed to Pokemon, who they merely command as separate members of a species, with thousands upon thousands of variations. For Pokemon trainer, you'd have to actualaly decide on a team, decide what moves they havem abilities for each etc. Pokemon IS a different circumstance.

Part of me just wants to suggest calem/serena as the profile names for example since having at least 12 different profiles for the Pokémon named player just from the main games is not fun

Well lets actually WRITE that many first, but we already have that on the wiki. We cant pretend these characters are the actual canon interpretations if we're also applying a bunch of OC logic to it.

As @XSOULOFCINDERX said, uniqueness is not the goal; it's to properly index what the player's arsenal is. We are an idexing site after all.

Idk how many times you gotta repeat this but I've already said why and explained I KNOW

At the same time, what you're indexing gets to a point. Trying to make out that someone like Victor/Gloria would have access to an Arceus (technically available in the Dexit).

Plus, even including the National Dex, the various Player pages will be unique in their own ways since they won't have access to Pokemon from later generations (with the exception of remakes, but those could be different keys or even profiles depending on how we want to do this), they won't have items from later gens too (or even unique items from earlier gens), and they won't have moves from later gens. The Switch games won't have Pokemon and moves from earlier gens since they aren't obtainable or tradable to these games, for example.

Well not really, cause then they're just powercrept too. And then the inclusion of the Creation Trio kinda makes them all...the same? power wise. With no way of determining other factors. They're clones that have a little more added on from the prior gen

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Why does bro write like Greg Heffley

Cause at least their tools/arsenals are actual powers/weaponry THEY USE as opposed to Pokemon, who they merely command as separate members of a species, with thousands upon thousands of variations. For Pokemon trainer, you'd have to actualaly decide on a team, decide what moves they havem abilities for each etc. Pokemon IS a different circumstance.

Literally almost all RPGs require you to create a build. I don't see the Dragonborn wielding a two-handed sword in Mage Robes. If you think it's that important, just do what Chase's profile does with Alolan Pokemon.

Well lets actually WRITE that many first, but we already have that on the wiki. We cant pretend these characters are the actual canon interpretations if we're also applying a bunch of OC logic to it.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

Are these not already enough?

Idk how many times you gotta repeat this but I've already said why and explained I KNOW

At the same time, what you're indexing gets to a point. Trying to make out that someone like Victor/Gloria would have access to an Arceus (technically available in the Dexit).

All that really proves is that Gloria is capable of having Arceus traded to her.

Well not really, cause then they're just powercrept too. And then the inclusion of the Creation Trio kinda makes them all...the same? power wise. With no way of determining other factors. They're clones that have a little more added on from the prior gen

That's not the fault of our indexing. In DC Comics, everybody ever gets to 2-C via scaling to Superman somehow.

Juliana is actually one of the weakest protags, believe it or not. Even in Masters she doesn't get to 2-A.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Cause at least their tools/arsenals are actual powers/weaponry THEY USE as opposed to Pokemon, who they merely command as separate members of a species, with thousands upon thousands of variations. For Pokemon trainer, you'd have to actualaly decide on a team, decide what moves they havem abilities for each etc. Pokemon IS a different circumstance.

I disagree. It doesn't matter that trainers command creatures and the Dragonborn/Minecraft Player/Whoever else use weapons... It's all equipment at the end of the day. Even those two examples use summons/pets as part of their arsenal. I just don't think letting people pick a team of 6 is that much of an issue. If someone decides to use their own team, so what? It will be a team that anyone with a copy of a game can replicate. It won't be 'original' to that user in the same way an OC would be

This also seems to be looking at things from a forum battle perspective rather than an indexing one, which just isn't what we need to be doing

Now, if this hypothetical user started giving the Pokémon/Trainers unique names or personalities that'd impact the match, that'd be eyebrow raising.

But, again, nothing's stopping someone from using their own Minecraft/Skyrim/Persona loadout. There's already plenty of precedent for this being alright

 

[Jinx666]

Why does bro write like Greg Heffley

@Random-Helper323 can you tell this guy again please, idk how many times they gotta blatantly try and insult and stir

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Of course you'd focus on that and not the things proving you wrong.

 

[Jinx666]

I disagree. It doesn't matter that trainers command creatures and the Dragonborn/Minecraft Player/Whoever else use weapons... It's all equipment at the end of the day. Even those two examples use summons/pets as part of their arsenal. I just don't think letting people pick a team of 6 is that much of an issue. If someone decides to use their own team, so what? It will be a team that anyone with a copy of a game can replicate. It won't be 'original' to that user in the same way an OC would be

Pokemon arent 'Equipment'. Heck, they can get their own character profiles as a collective species.

Regardless they arent the same as equipping spells or w/e, and you're limited unlike the other options within a battle.

This also seems to be looking at things from a forum battle perspective rather than an indexing one, which just isn't what we need to be doing

the forum battle part is still a relevant noted factor on the server.

Regardless, if you're looking at the character objectively, there are tons of Pokemon you cant make any canon confirmation they should have.

But, again, nothing's stopping someone from using their own Minecraft/Skyrim/Persona loadout. There's already plenty of precedent for this being alright

Well yes there is, cause theres plenty reasonn to composite those 3. Meanwhile Pokemon trainers require only handling 6 pokemon and are far more limited at the time. This is accurate to lore too.

 

[Jinx666]

Of course you'd focus on that and not the things proving you wrong.

Yes because all you're trying to do is stir the pot constantly Sean. I have been asked countless times not to respond to you when its necessary, and i'd much prefer not to. Lord knows it isnt mutual

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

A jab so light it's not even a nudge is not "stirring the pot". In fact it's an attempt by you to avoid responding to my arguments against whatever grudge you have with Pokemon profiles.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Pokemon arent 'Equipment'.

Basically every trainer profile lists their Pokeballs as equipment, I assume because their Pokemon are inside (If not, do we assume they all have empty Pokeballs at all times?). And, for indexing purposes, they are essentially a creature under the command of the trainer and more or less the only thing they ever use in battle. Perhaps not equipment in the standard sense, but we're nitpicking at that point

Heck, they can get their own character profiles as a collective species.

So can many, many, many, many, many other pets/summons/whatever you wanna call em

Regardless they arent the same as equipping spells or w/e, and you're limited unlike the other options within a battle

I don't really understand what this means. I'd argue that a Pokémon team is equivalent to any other kind of 'build'

the forum battle part is still a relevant noted factor on the server.

Regardless, if you're looking at the character objectively, there are tons of Pokemon you cant make any canon confirmation they should have

I do agree that National Dex and events are worthy of further discussion, but given concepts such as trading are already recognized as part of the canon (cosmology blog), I would personally consider them valid.

And a hypothetical scenario for forum battles should have little to no bearing on indexing, as in what's on the profile

Well yes there is, cause theres plenty reasonn to composite those 3. Meanwhile Pokemon trainers require only handling 6 pokemon and are far more limited at the time. This is accurate to lore too.

Every character in any RPG ever typically has a limited inventory/spellslots/whatever

 

[Random-Helper323]

Stop this please. Sean, please try not to make comments like that, no matter how frustrated you get. Jinx, the joke does seem designed to stir the pot, although I don't know the character at all, so I don't know how severe the insult is. From what I can tell the character says things that are untrue but which he might think are true, I don't know.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

There's like a shit ton of characters on the wiki who have other characters as part of their equipment by the way so that point is moot.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Cause at least their tools/arsenals are actual powers/weaponry THEY USE as opposed to Pokemon, who they merely command as separate members of a species, with thousands upon thousands of variations. For Pokemon trainer, you'd have to actualaly decide on a team, decide what moves they havem abilities for each etc. Pokemon IS a different circumstance.

That's not that weird. Most Minecraft matches start with the original poster deciding what kind of kit the Player is using.

Well lets actually WRITE that many first, but we already have that on the wiki. We cant pretend these characters are the actual canon interpretations if we're also applying a bunch of OC logic to it.

We do have some pages for them already.

Idk how many times you gotta repeat this but I've already said why and explained I KNOW

Ok.

At the same time, what you're indexing gets to a point. Trying to make out that someone like Victor/Gloria would have access to an Arceus (technically available in the Dexit).

I mean, why wouldn't we index that?

Well not really, cause then they're just powercrept too. And then the inclusion of the Creation Trio kinda makes them all...the same? power wise. With no way of determining other factors. They're clones that have a little more added on from the prior gen

Not really, there are a lot of differences. The Gen 1 players don't get access to the Creation Trio (even with Fire Red and Leaf Green or Let's Go Pikachu and Eevee), every character that isn't from Gen 2 can't use the Berserk gene, every pre-Gen 6 and post-gen 7 (excluding Legends Z-A) character doesn't have access to Mega Evolution, etcetera, for example.

Pokemon arent 'Equipment'. Heck, they can get their own character profiles as a collective species.

Anything can be equipment; heck, some of our profiles even have other people listed as equipment.

Regardless they arent the same as equipping spells or w/e, and you're limited unlike the other options within a battle.

So are a lot of other RPGs. You're usually not going into battle with every single spell, piece of equipment, ability, etcetera at your disposal (even when it often makes no sense).

the forum battle part is still a relevant noted factor on the server.

Not for our pages. We're an indexing site first, a vs debating site second, kind of.

Regardless, if you're looking at the character objectively, there are tons of Pokemon you cant make any canon confirmation they should have.

That applies to basically every Pokemon in every game aside from the starters/first partner Pokemon and the mandatory Legendary Pokemon you capture in the newer games (along with some random exceptions here and there).

And again, this applies to every other RPG out there since you can customize their kits so much and/or just miss out on certain pieces of equipment, spells, monster captures, etcetera.

Well yes there is, cause theres plenty reasonn to composite those 3. Meanwhile Pokemon trainers require only handling 6 pokemon and are far more limited at the time. This is accurate to lore too.

Like I said earlier in this post, there's precedent for having the thread's original poster decide on the loadout a character will use in the fight. I see no reason why we can't do the same with the various Pokemon protagonists.