STAFF INPUT NEEDED: Pokemon Types Revisions

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I wanted to stay out of the Pokemon mess, but there are somethings that just bother me.

So me and Ever were discussing this outside of VSBW and came to the conclusion that how we treat some Pokemon types are, to put it nicely, not the best. I will explain each.

Psychic Types
The biggest one. Basically Psychic Types is universally defined as Telekinesis and Mind Manipulation. At first glance this would make sense. A lot of Psychic types are able to manipulate the minds of others...but not all have shown to do so, or given some reason to why they should. Not all Psychic types should have Mind Manipulation unless shown or implied through Dex entries.

Not only that, but we have Dark types, Steel types and other Psychic Types have a resistance to Mind Manipulation. This should not be so. The reason is because they can resist the Psychic typing and its attacks, however there are some issues.

• Psychic Types aren't the only Pokemon to be able to manipulation minds. Some Ghost and Dark types are able to do so as well. Even some Pokemon of other types can. It is not Psychic type exclusive.

• Psychic Type moves are not Mind Manipulation. In order to prove said point, let me go over every single offensive Psychic type move (and those that target other Pokemon).

Ally Switch: Teleportation.

Confusion: Telekinesis.

Dream Eater: Dream Manipulation. Even then, someone with Liquid Ooze causes it to hurt the user. This means that is also has some type of Physical Attribute.

Extrasensory: This is an invisible projectile.

Future Sight: Precog + Invisible projectile.

Gravity: Gravity Manipulation.

Guard Swap and Split: This is simply trading Durability with the opponent.

Heal Block: Regen Negation.

Heal Pulse: Healing.

Healing Wish: Healing.

Heart Stamp: And attack launched after you have your opponent let their guard down.

Heart Swap: Swaps stats with the opponent.

Hyperspace Hole: Portal Creation and an attack.

Hypnosis: The only Psychic move that can be argued as Mind Manipulation. "Then that means Dark types resist it". Sorry, but no dice as Hypnosis still works on Dark types.

Imprison: Power Nullification, if you share the same move as the user.

Instruct: Game Mechanics ridden. Allows you ally to use their previous attack a second time in said turn.

Kinesis: Literally using telekinesis to bend a spoon and lowers accuracy.

Light Screen: Portrayed as Forcefield Creation.

Lunar Dance: Healing.

Luster Purge: A burst of light. (Have we accepted that or just energy?)

Mist Ball: A projectile.

Photon Geyser: A projectile.

Magic Coat: Status reflection.

Magic Room: Nullifies the power of items, i.e Link's worst enemy.

Miracle Eye: Biological or Information Manipulation. Specifically allows Psychic moves to harm Dark types.

Mirror Coat: Attack Reflection.

Power Split and Swap: Attack Potency swapping.

Psybeam: Projectile.

Psychic: Telekinesis....or that odd rainbow colored wave Metagross used in Gen 3....Telekinesis.

Psychic Fang: A bite that destroys barriers.

Psychic Terrain: Game Mechanics.

Psycho Boost: Telekinetic blast.

Psycho Shift: Status reflection.

Psyshock and Psystrike: Telekinetic blast that pierces through defenses.

Psywave: A psychic energy wave.

Reflect: Forcefield Creation.

Role Play: Power Mimicry.

Skill and Speed Swap: Swaps abilities and speed with the opponent.

Stored Power: Energy blast.

Synchronoise: Shockwave.

Telekinesis: Self explanatory.

Teleport: Self explanatory.

Trick: Swaps Equipment.

Trick Room: A field that causes the slower opponent to be faster at all times.

Wonder Room: A field that swaps durability.

Zen Headbutt: Willpower focused into a powerful headbutt.

So based upon all the moves shown in series, psychic type moves are not Mind Manipulation, but in fact Telekinesis and Psychic blasts. The only one that can be Mind Manipulation is Hypnosis, and it still works on those resistant, and even the one type that is supposed to be "immune" to it.

Ghost Types
This is another problematic one. To put it simply, we should not grant those resistant to Ghost moves to be resistant to Soul Manipulation. This is because while a lot of Ghost Pokemon are souls and some can in fact manipulate souls, none of these attacks are actually ever resisted by any Pokemon.

I don't need to list all the Ghost moves for this one. None affect the soul. The other one is Curse Manipulation. But the move Curse is not resisted by any type that is resistant to Ghost moves. Same with Destiny Bond and Grudge. Most Ghost moves are a for of Shadow/Darkness Manipulation.

Fighting, Normal, Bug, Flying and Dragon Types
What to do here? I believe it is quite simple. These types should not be considered outside of Pokemon v Pokemon matches. Types like Fighting are often considered Martial Arts, however when we have moves like Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Comet Punch, etc being Normal Type and not being any different from moves considered Fighting types, we start getting contradictions. We end up with thing like "Rayquaza is resistant to Saitama's punches because they are fighting type", despite them reasonably being able to be Normal type as well.

Bug Type is just weak to Bug Type moves. What is this? A weakness to Bug/insectoid enemies? So if I put Mewtwo against a a 5-B version of this thing does Mewtwo have a disadvantage due to the fact that it's a giant spider/bug?


I knew this would become useful.


That doesn't make sense. And it is idiotic. As it isn't the appearance of the enemy, but the attack.

Flying types projectiles are more or less Air Manipulation, but what of the physical blows? Well, I doubt is we put Virizion against a giant bird, she would be weak to it's every move. The same follows with Dragon.

This gets rid of arbitrary Resistances and Weaknesses.

Rock and Ground Types
How do we handle this? Like both fit into Earth Manipulation. However, A Pidgeot is indeed weak to Rock based moves, but not ground moves, despite that. So I need help on how to handle this.

Links for List of Moves
Psychic- https://pokemondb.net/move/type/psychic

Ghost- https://pokemondb.net/move/type/ghost

That's really all from me.

Conclusion
Psychic Types: Not all Psychic Pokemon should have Mind Manipulation and Dark types should not have Mind Resistance due to this.

Ghost Type: Same as above, only with Soul Manipulation.

Normal, Fighting, Bug, Flying and Dragon Types: Weaknesses and resistances are to only be used in Pokemon vs Pokemon matches, otherwise they end up as arbitrary.

Rock and Ground:

 

[Js250476]

>Xenoblade spider

I see what you did there ovo

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

It was the first bug I thought of lol.

 

[Js250476]

I don't blame ya damn bastards are annoying to fight

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I think the reasoning for Soul Manip was that since Ghost-Types can hit other Ghost Types, then it should be Soul Manip. But it doesn't work, really.

A simple kick or punch isn't Martial Arts. I think that's also the distinction we should make.

Bug attacks tend to be attacks done by insect-y appendages. Not just punches done by bugs, but stuff that uses their bug characteristics.

Flying Types are either Air Manip or attacks specifically done via being in the air (Thus, not regular attacks just done in the air).

I think Dragon can be dropped unless the verse in question has some dragonic energy thing introduced.

Ground = Sand and other "soft" types of grounds. Rocks are well, rocks.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Problem with some of these.

Most Fighting moves are simple punches and kicks though. Some are even just slapping the shit out of the oppoent.

For Bug types, X-Scissor can still be used by random mammal and draconic Pokemon. Yet is still bug type. Somethings don't add up here.

Moves like Hi-Jump Kick, Jump Kich, Dragon Rush, etc are also done in the air. Aerial attacks should not have a different property just because it is done in the air.

 

[TriforcePower1]

"Magic Room: Nullifies the power of items, i.e Link's worst enemy."

Assuming Link can't resist power null ovo

I agree that Dark types Pokemon don't get resistance to mind hax. They would get resistance to some abilities you said, if they don't have it already. But Liquid ooze damaging guys who use dream eater is either gameplay mechanic, or the ability makes dreams "taste awful" or tons of other reasons. Assuming dream eater physically affects being from this is wrong.

I remember that some ghosts moves involved interacting with the opponents soul, but I'm neutral on this.

I'm neutral on the fighting and normal thing. One could easily interpret it as one being a punch thrown by a normal person, the other one by a martial artist. I should check if fighting type guys learn these moves as well. I'm also neutral on the flying type. I'm against the bug and dragon thing though. Especially the dragon one, as these things are easy to distinguish in fiction.

I have no idea about this one, as the entire pokemon community as well.

 

[SomebodyData]

I've been meaning to ask, do we just give intangibility / non-corporeality to Pokemon for just being Ghost types or is their evidence behind each one?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Some things.

-Heart Swap is actually mind manipulation as far as the anime goes at least. Manaphy in the Pokemon Ranger movie used this to not only switch the minds of Ash and a Pokemon Ranger, but also let May telephathically communicate with Ash and restore the confused minds of, at least, dozens of water pokemon, including Kyogre.

-Hypnosis working on Dark types? Examples of this would be nice please. Otherwise if its game related its more than likely game mechanics.

-You didnt mention Confusion also leaving the mind in a confused state after its used, which a good number of psyhic moves do too.

-Psychic, Mewtwo used it to control minds like Nurse Joy. Unless thats just Mewtwo's own thing.

-Fighting I already explained (or attempted to explain) before. The difference between moves that are normal and those fighting are because the former are just simple strikes while the latter is supported by fighting skills to apmlify them (a karrate chop from a martial artist will always cut more bricks than a random everyday person) and makes use of fighting energy (Aura, Focus blast, etc.). Both are "punches and kicks" but one has more to its name to be different and ironically enough, it explains why Fighting types are > Normal types. Your best bet would be to argue stuff like Drain Punch, which can't be explained other than it absorbing the fighting/life energy of opponents.

-For the bug part, to put it simply, yes. If Mewtwo's moves have less effect on bug-related enemies because bugs are resistant to psychic abilities, then Mewtwo's moves are just less effective on them then on others. Its a weakness for a reason. If I called out fire beings being weak to water as idoitic, someone would tell me its a simple weakness. This is one of them too.

-Flying, well Virizon is both a grass and fighting type, which is 4x as weak to air moves than regular, so she isnt a good example. Anyway, sure pitting her against a giant bird wont matter as long as it isnt, like, in the same tier as Virizon.

-I think the difference for Rock and Ground is Rock is more, well, rock like stones and such, which air kinda can't defeat. While ground is explicity more sand based, and while sand is technically rock, its in a different form which air can relate to far better (like air swirling up sand). Think of Avatar when it comes to this. Not all Earth benders can bend sand despite it being the same element. Toph had to train her sand bending skill to where she can only make a small sand castle of Ba Sing Se. Other than that, I have no thoughts on this.

I'll wait to see what others think of the rest.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Even simple kicks or punches can be more sophisticated than just sheer brute force, like how normal types moves tend to be. I think it's safe to assume that they have some degree of Martial Art in them, considering that the entire type (and most of its moves) are based on that.

In general, I'd say that it's pretty clear that Pokémon moves aren't just techniques or ways of attacking. The anime tends to portray most physical moves as causing the user's body parts to glow, implying that their physical attacks are empowered for the duration of the attack, and not just punching an enemy.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I've been meaning to ask, do we just give intangibility / non-corporeality to Pokemon for just being Ghost types or is their evidence behind each one?

Most ghost types actually have feats of Intangibility in stuff like Mystery Dungeon. Whether it's Non-Corporeality or Intangibility, I'm not so sure.

 

[EcchiOtakuTM]

Actually the bug weakness for psychics is based from insects annoying one's concentration. I'd regard it more closer to confusion then any insect being having an advantage.


But personally I think it's better to go move by move for which a pokemon is resistant to. It would take a rediculous amount of time to do each pokemon one by one so maybe make 17 pages 1 per type with the offensive moves at the top and status moves at the bottom.

Once those pages with the effects only offensive moves and way they work towards effect status moves are listed link each to a pokemon profile as "weak to link', 'link'", "Resistant to 'link', 'link'", "Immune to 'link'". Would be best not to list move names themself.


For example make a pokemon electric page with only the effects of attacks at the top, if different attacks do the same thing then dont repeat it. Do not add bonus effects or how they work in this area. For example based off thunder and thunderbolt, you would list electrical attack only. Do not add chance to paralyze or 100% accuracy on aerial targets. Other electrical moves probably do electrical attacks but do not add redundant "Electrical attack electrical attack". Just keep going move by move until that area is completed.

Next up utility moves is kinda iffy but you want to list how offensive status moves work which can fail.


For examplthunder wave gives paralysis from electricity. Thus do "Elecity to give paralysis" for this section you have to say how this status effect works and what it does.


At the very top of each page you should note "Resistance only applies to offensive portion, Immunities apply to both" so when one goes from a pokemon's page they dont think the utility portion is resisted.

Now for things which conflict comet punch, i believe it works by turning to a steel aura to punch a target based off pokemonXD gale of darkness.I had metagross in that game and he made a ball of steel like energy to attack I could be wrong.

However this is what I feel is best suited to the wiki for clarity. Sorry if I didn't explain my thoughts well enough, typing from a phone is extremely slow and hampers my readability of what I type. Hopefully you understood my idea, why it would be simple and fast and would provide better clarity.


HowevetHowever the #1 important thing. One must be clear on how the moves listed work to attempt to avoid confliction. Sadly I dont have my hacked copy and an accessible coliseum/gale of darkness/battle revolution to try and help with certain other similar moves.


Lastly the normal and fighting type pages, I already know that will problematic most and cause conflictions but still seperate them then we can try to differentiate them.


For example we might be able to say fighting moves use something like aura to seperate them from normal skills since even without using aura sphere it is confirmed all beings have aura if I remember.


As for other conflictions imo we should get the bulk of 17 different type(or is it 18 types I forget) pages out of the way then address confliction offensive effects after that said bulk is out of the way.

 

[Kepekley23]

> -Heart Swap is actually mind manipulation as far as the anime goes at least.

No, it's not. Manaphy is able to choose two targets with Heart Swap and switch their souls with one another, which is a low level Soul Manip that nobody scales to.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Any evidence that its soul based rather than mind based?

And you didnt give an answer to Manaphy using it to connect May and Ash's minds, which is definitely mind based.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

"Hypnosis working on Dark types? Examples of this would be nice please. Otherwise if its game related its more than likely game mechanics."

Give me one reason to see it as game mechanics. Simple answer it's not. You cannot use "Game Mechanics" to weasel out of everything. The specifically made Hypnosis to be still work on Dark types. It is not game mechanics.

"For the bug part, to put it simply, yes. If Mewtwo's moves have less effect on bug-related enemies because bugs are resistant to psychic abilities, then Mewtwo's moves are just less effective on them then on others. Its a weakness for a reason. If I called out fire beings being weak to water as idoitic, someone would tell me its a simple weakness. This is one of them too. ""For the bug part, to put it simply, yes. If Mewtwo's moves have less effect on bug-related enemies because bugs are resistant to psychic abilities, then Mewtwo's moves are just less effective on them then on others. Its a weakness for a reason. If I called out fire beings being weak to water as idoitic, someone would tell me its a simple weakness. This is one of them too. "

False Equivalency. Fire v Water is a natural elemental deal. Bug is not.False Equivalency. Fire v Water is a natural elemental deal. Bug is not.

"Flying, well Virizon is both a grass and fighting type, which is 4x as weak to air moves than regular, so she isnt a good example. Anyway, sure pitting her against a giant bird wont matter as long as it isnt, like, in the same tier as Virizon."

You completely missed my point. I never discounted a weakness to Air Manipulation. You completely missed my point. I never discounted a weakness to Air Manipulation.

"Fighting I already explained (or attempted to explain) before. The difference between moves that are normal and those fighting are because the former are just simple strikes while the latter is supported by fighting skills to apmlify them (a karrate chop from a martial artist will always cut more bricks than a random everyday person) and makes use of fighting energy (Aura, Focus blast, etc.). Both are "punches and kicks" but one has more to its name to be different and ironically enough, it explains why Fighting types are > Normal types. Your best bet would be to argue stuff like Drain Punch, which can't be explained other than it absorbing the fighting/life energy of opponents. "

So let me get this straight...A kick from an inexperienced and unskilled combatant is not resisted..but apparently the moment the kick becomes skilled, it becomes resisted. That makes no sense. Also does this mean that all natural energies = Fighting Type.

"Psychic, Mewtwo used it to control minds like Nurse Joy. Unless thats just Mewtwo's own thing."

It wasn't Psychic, just Mind Control outside of Pokemon moves.

"You didnt mention Confusion also leaving the mind in a confused state after its used, which a good number of psyhic moves do too. "

The confusion ailment is caused by getting hit by the telekinetic attack. Even then, Dark types don't resist the confusion ailment regardless.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Most ghost types actually have feats of Intangibility in stuff like Mystery Dungeon. Whether it's Non-Corporeality or Intangibility, I'm not so sure.

How does this explain the likes of Decidueye?

 

[Kepekley23]

Because that's literally what happens in the movie.

Not only that, but it wouldn't scale to anyone even if it was Mind Manipulation. Normal psychic Pokémons being able to output and resist the same hax as a legend is baseless.

> -Hypnosis working on Dark types? Examples of this would be nice please. Otherwise if its game related its more than likely game mechanics.

Hypnosis works on everything that doesn't have Vital Spirit or Insomnia.

> -You didnt mention Confusion also leaving the mind in a confused state after its used, which a good number of psyhic moves do too.

Confusion works by hitting the user. It's more of a vertigo\dizziness deal. It doesn't naturally confuse the user's mind. The anime further reinforces this by having Confusion be all about slamming people around with a paralyzing energy hold.

> -Psychic, Mewtwo used it to control minds like Nurse Joy. Unless thats just Mewtwo's own thing.

Correction: it was an unknown move only seen being used by Mewtwo himself, not Psychic.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

"Give me one reason to see it as game mechanics. Simple answer it's not. You cannot use "Game Mechanics" to weasel out of everything. The specifically made Hypnosis to be still work on Dark types. It is not game mechanics."

I can if this is only completely game based and has 0 in-canon showings of working on dark types, the type explicity made to counter Psychic. One reason for it being game mechanics? There's no feats of Hypnosis working on a dark pokemon outside said games, so why claim it can in the first place? Its baseless. Your the one claiming it can Dragon, so its up to you to prove the positive here.

"False Equivalency. Fire v Water is a natural elemental deal. Bug is not"


What does it matter if its not? This is about explaining weaknesses in general, not just elemental ones. If psychic moves are explained in-verse to not work as well on bugs than others, then that's a simple weakness on psychic's part. I don't see the issue from this at all.

"You completely missed my point. I never discounted a weakness to Air Manipulation."

What is your point for this then?

"So apparently...A kick from an inexperienced and unskilled combatant is not resisted..but apparently the moment the kick becomes skilled, it becomes resisted. That makes no sense."

Actually it does, for those who are resistant to or shrug off physical brute force attacks at least. Plus the fact that Normal moves aren't super effective on literally any pokemon type, hence the name "normal". They have equal universal effectiveness on any type sans Ghost for obvious reasons.

"The confusion ailment is caused by getting hit by the telekinetic attack."

Which means its still mind based to an extent, just on a lower scale.

 

[Overlord775]

> -Psychic, Mewtwo used it to control minds like Nurse Joy. Unless thats just Mewtwo's own thing.

Correction: it was an unknown move only seen being used by Mewtwo himself, not Psychic.

Normal Psychic Pokemons like Bronzong have shown mind control too

 

[Kepekley23]

Right, which is irrelevant to my original statement addressing Psychic (the move)'s functionality.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Kep, that isnt a reason for it being soul based than mind based.

I can say the same thing for it being mind based because "it happened in the movie" and we'd get nowhere. We need feats for it affecting the soul instead of the mind. And it doesnt. Jackie (the ranger who Manaphy effected) never even specified it was soul based.

As for Psychic, I mentioned Mewtwo because Brock said he was using psychic when they revealed Nurse Joy being controlled by him.

 

[Imaginym]

First off, although I'd question if it is Mind Manipulation for sure, you seemed to omit Shattered Psyche .

Figting type distinguishes itself from Normal-type via actual Martial Arts & skill. Normal-type, when it's doing punches & kicks is brute force.

For example, Mega Punch : "A powerful punch thrown very hard."."A strong punch thrown with incredible power."."The target is slugged by a punch thrown with muscle-packed power."

Mega Kick is practically the same in its descriptions. Comet Punch's Japanese name is just Consecutive Punches, & it's described as a flurry of punches.

As you can tell by their descriptions, they're much more basic & simplistic than Fighting-type moves, which regularly have basises in martial arts, training, etc.

The only possible exception to this rule -and it's 1 Normal move that breaks the trend- is Dizzy Punch. And even then, it was originally designed as the signature move of Kangaskhan, a Normal type.

The differences in how Fighting & Normal types are seem clear & easy to follow case-by-case, should they come up here.

I haven't looked all over the Ghost types myself, but I can see where you're coming from. Neutral on the Ghost-type matter.

Bug type is a little ambiguous in what actually is Bug-type, but it's sometimes consistent with stuff bugs do, like with Bug Buzz, Attack Order, Fell Stinger.... But I agree that many seem questionable as to why they're Bug-type. But other types often fit their niches. Whether something's Bug Type to a Pokemon should be case by case, IMHO.

Most Flying-type moves are air manipulation (Gust, Hurricane, Air Slash, Aeroblast, Air Cutter....), involve needing to fly/have wings to attack (Brave Bird, Fly, Sky Attack, Dragon Ascent, Wing Attack....) or require a beak like Peck & Drill Peck.

I don't see how Flying type is so vague.


Overall, possible exception of Shattered Psyche, Psychic moves not being Mind Manipulation makes sense, I'm neutral on Ghost type matters (Haven't checked enough), & I disagree with the rest.

 

[Kepekley23]

> Kep, that isnt a reason for it being soul based than mind based.

Jesse and James's souls are literally shown leaving their bodies once Manaphy uses it inside the egg. It's explicitly soul based.

Also, Brock saying Mewtwo was using psychic is a dubline. Japanese dub has him saying he is using a Psychic type move.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

"I can if this is only completely game based and has 0 in-canon showings of working on dark types, the type explicity made to counter Psychic. One reason for it being game mechanics? There's no feats of Hypnosis working on a dark pokemon outside said games, so why claim it can in the first place? Its baseless. Your the one claiming it can Dragon, so its up to you to prove the positive here."

No I do not. I have the game to back me up. It is on YOU to post why it is Game Mechanics as YOU are the one claiming it to be as such. Just because it happens in game =/= Game Mechanics. Shown me someone outside of the game in which is PRIMARY CANON resisting Hypnosis and is Dark Type. You are simply hiding behind game mechanics to weasel out of an objective fact because it does not suit what you want. Not to mention Dark types were made to be specifically resistant to Psychic type attacks, i.e the majority are Telekinetic attacks. Hypnosis is actual Mind Manipulation and is not resistant. Hmmmmm....

"What does it matter if its not? This is about explaining weaknesses in general, not just elemental ones. If psychic moves are explained in-verse to not work as well on bugs than others, then that's a simple weakness on psychic's part. I don't see the issue from this at all."

But Bug types are not resistant to Psychic moves though? I am arguing the nature of the bug type.

"What is your point for this then?"

My point Aesop is that a tackle from the air should not have anymore resistance than a tackle from the ground.

"Actually it does, for those who are resistant to or shrug off physical brute force attacks at least. Plus the fact that Normal moves aren't super effective on literally any pokemon type, hence the name "normal". They have equal universal effectiveness on any type."

Okay, explain to me the logic of a skilled kick suddenly being resisted when an unskilled version of another one is not.

"Which means its still mind based to an extent, just on a lower scale."

But Dark Types don't resist such an ailment. The confusion comes from the vertigo of being thrown around from the Telekinesis. It's not actually a mental attack.

The issue with the likes of Normal, Fighting, Bug, Flying and Dragon caused arbitrary ressitances in other fictions in which the same rules do not apply, and cannot apply.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Fair enough on that point (I remember that scene. Jessie inside Meowth ovo). Though it would still be mind based for the fact that Heart Swap connected Ash and Mays minds and still restored the confused minds of Kyogre and dozens of other water pokemon.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Shattered Psyche is not Mind Manipulation. The Animation is blatantly Telekinesis. Also the description says "control" This does not mean Mind Contol, but control through Telekinesis.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

People, for the love of Arceus stop bringing up Air Manipulation.

I, in my OP specifically stated that most projectile moves are indeed Air Manipulation. My problem comes from when we start having all Aerial attacks from other verses count towards the Flying Typing. Same with Fighting and Normal typine.

 

[NeoZex6399]

But we've never given ghost type pokémon the ability soul manipulation just because they are ghost type...

 

[Imaginym]

People, for the love of Arceus stop bringing up Air Manipulation.
I, in my OP specifically stated that most projectile moves are indeed Air Manipulation. My problem comes from when we start having all Aerial attacks from other verses count towards the Flying Typing. Same with Fighting and Normal typine.

My apologies. Sorry for any bother. Although, IMHO, that sounds like an error in how we evaluate techniques as they correspond to the Pokemon setting's rules of our wiki, not an error in the current implementation. People misunderstanding a definition doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong, & we have some somewhat consistent guidelines for Flying-type moves. (Requiring flight, wings, a beak, or using air manipulation.)

As for "skilled vs unskilled" in the Normal-vs-Fighting resistance thing.... The majority of Normal-type moves aren't punches or kicks (Slam, Pound, Scratch, Slash, Hyper Voice, Tri Attack, Wrap, Wring Out, etc.), & may be simplistic, but not necessarily standardized.

Let's look at the types that resist Fighting: Flying, Bug, Fairy, Poison, Psychic.

It seems reasonable to me as to why they resist: Fighting is based on specific styles of martial arts, which may often be designed to confront an opponent a certain kind of way, or a certain kind of opponent.

Generally, you won't try something like a judo throw on a bird, bug or pixie, because the anatomy, & the movement & whatnot are very different from what your martial art is designed for. (That and pixies aren't real.)

Likewise, Normal type's Japanese name is "Typeless". It's a much wider category of moves & much less conformed to specific styles; A martial art can be predictable because it must follow some rules & is designed a certain way, but in theory, a basic attack may be more generally applicable & may give away less about how you fight.

This seems to be one reason as to why those 3 types resist Fighting; It's formulaic & many types of martial arts probably aren't designed to fight things that aren't human, are very small, or fly around, whereas Normal is more generally applicable.

A fairy or psychic may also be very weird in behaviour, making it unpredictable.

As for Poison & Psychic, I'd believe it's because properly executing your martial arts is more difficult when you're under exposure to poison, & Psychics have telekinesis, hindering your movement, as well as the rare cases of mind manipulation via Pokedex entries. (Like Starmie & Alakazam's presence causing headaches.)

In this regard, I feel there is a logic as to why these types resist Fighting; Their general nature makes more refined martial arts techniques for general opponents or those similar to the user -almost always a human, which most martial arts come from- less fit to fight them than something more basic.

You would expect a Bug-type to be like a Bug, a Fairy-type to be like a Fairy, & a Flying-type to be like a... a flier, I guess. And those properties are likely tied to their type. Ki for a bug or a psychic or a poisonous beings or a fairy (Or a ghost, I suppose, too.) may not be the same.

IMHO, there is a logic as to why those type resists those techniques, found in the premise of the types, I think, & in-universe, it simply is that they do resist those.

I don't see why something likely an inherent part of the Pokemon should be ignored just because the kind of refined attack coming at them is from another setting, when we equalize verses in a lot of ways, a lot of the times & throw their mechanics at one another.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Okay. First of all Dragon, calm down. Mentioning stuff like "wealsing out" or "doesnt suit what I want is uncalled for. This is just a discussion. Anyways,

"No I do not. I have the game to back me up. It is on YOU to post why it is Game Mechanics as YOU are the one claiming it to be as such. Just because it happens in game =/= Game Mechanics. Shown me someone outside of the game in which is PRIMARY CANON resisting Hypnosis and is Dark Type. You are simply hiding behind game mechanics to weasel out of an objective fact because it does not suit what you want. Not to mention Dark types were made to be specifically resistant to Psychic type attacks, i.e the majority are Telekinetic attacks. Hypnosis is actual Mind Manipulation and is not resistant. Hmmmmm...."

Do you know what your essentially asking me to prove right now? Your asking me to prove a negative and that's not how this works. You are the one that's claiming Hypnosis has the feat of working on Dark type Pokemon. That is a positive there. Here, the burden of proof is needing to prove a positive instead of proving a negative. So yes, it is on you to prove that hypnosis can indeed work on a type that's essentially immune to the former's main bread and butter and is explained to be outside of this one instance. As for proving its game mechanics, are there cut scenes of dark types resisting hypnosis? No there aren't. So what would we be left with? Game mechanic battles, and that is the only place where hypnosis would be working. Now if there was a mention in-verse of hypnosis working regardless, you'd have a point. But as far as I know, there is not. This is not enough to say Hypnosis can work on dark pokemon, unless we want to say Spacial Rend or Roar of Time not working on fairy pokemon isnt game mechanics either because fairy is immune to dragon?

"But Bug types are not resistant to Psychic moves though? I am arguing the nature of the bug type."

Nature as in what? Because your Mewtwo example doesnt really allign with this much if im thinking this the right way.

"Okay, explain to me the logic of a skilled kick suddenly being resisted when an unskilled version of another one is not.

Alright, this is actually quite easy once you think about it more deeply. And i'll strictly use DB as an example of this. So take Goku, a combatantant, and Bulma, whose a normal human girl. Goku goes to punch Mewtwo (Saiyan Saga Goku to make it more clear) and because Mewtwo's a psychic type, which resists fighting, Goku's physical H2H strikes are less effective than normal. Why? Because as a fighter, martial artist, and explicit KI user, Goku's physial strikes would be considered the fighting type. Now lets bring in Bulma. Unlike Goku the former, Bulma is just a regular woman. She has absolutely no fighting or martial arts skills of her own and can only fight with normal hits not supported by the former stuff. In other words, shes only fighting with 100% pure brute force. If Mewtwo can make Goku's moves, which are skilled and amplified by fighting capability, less effective, than a simple normal brute force attack from a far less weaker and skilled being is not going to do any better. Its one thing being better than the other and if the first one is useless, so will the second one be.

Also, I actually have doubts about the last thing but i'll deal with it later.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

In most cases things like this can be equalized. Except here, we are dealing with the likes of kicks and punches. A skilled one vs an unskilled one should not have any difference in whether it is resisted or not. A kick from say Goku could be no different from a Mega Kick from a Hitmonlee.

 

[Wokistan]

These resistances in themselves are creations of the mechanics of the game, just as dark types not resisting hypnosis is. It's in no way inconsistent and doesn't contradict other sources or common logic, so it can be used. That's how we treat game mechanics. Unless none of these resistances and weaknesses should be a thing.

 

[TriforcePower1]

I know that the reason psychic type is weak to bug, dark and ghost is because these three are the most common and innate fears in human. I don't know how exactly does this mean in terms of fighting, though. Like Mewtwo being scared of a normal spider ovo

 

[Wokistan]

Goku and Bulma isn't a great example. Not only is Goku unfathomably stronger, but that would result in people arguing over if an attack is skillful enough or not. Compare street fighter techniques, military CQC, conventional martial arts, etc. They're all very different, but they're all more involved than just flailing around. Its better to just not consider fighting type a thing for the purpose of vs battles. It would be really weird to be able to counter actual techniques but not untrained brute force of equal magnitude anyways. Seems like an inconsistency.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

"Do you know what your essentially asking me to prove right now? Your asking me to prove a negative and that's not how this works. You are the one that's claiming Hypnosis has the feat of working on Dark type Pokemon. That is a positive there. Here, the burden of proof is needing to prove a positive instead of proving a negative. So yes, it is on you to prove that hypnosis can indeed work on a type that's essentially immune to the former's main bread and butter and is explained to be outside of this one instance. As for proving its game mechanics, are there cut scenes of dark types resisting hypnosis? No there aren't. So what would we be left with? Game mechanic battles, and that is the only place where hypnosis would be working. Now if there was a mention in-verse of hypnosis working regardless, you'd have a point. But as far as I know, there is not. This is not enough to say Hypnosis can work on dark pokemon, unless we want to say Spacial Rend or Roar of Time not working on fairy pokemon isnt game mechanics either because fairy is immune to dragon?"

Except I have already proven the positive in the primary canon. This contradicts nothing. Except Mind Manipulation is not the bread and butter of Psychic Types. It's Telekinesis. I've proven my point. Go in your game and use Hypnosis on a Dark Type. See how it works. I don't need to go in the anime to find this. It's right there in the game. You need to go in prove why the game is contradicted by everything else. Your comparison does not work as Dialga and Palkia are also infinitely stronger than any Fairy Type in the game.

"Nature as in what? Because your Mewtwo example doesnt really allign with this much if im thinking this the right way."

You did not read my OP correctly then. I asked the question of whether simply being a bug or being insectoid = Mewtwo being weak to your basic attacks due to the nature of you being, well a bug.

I'll deal with your last point later.

 

[NeoZex6399]

>Dialga and Palkia are also infinitely stronger than any Fairy Type in the game


excuse me?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I legit have a blog on this. That you commented on.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I legit forgot that existed.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Well reading your blog, I disagree with Ghost and Psychic, but you seem to agree with me when it comes to Fighting type.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Someone can link the blog?