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What about omnipresents? I have seen peope clam in a thread before that the other charater would then become omnipresent.....rosealina vs zumus is the thread I mean it was a long time ago.
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Speed Equalized: Problems and Definition
- Thread starter Assaltwaffle
- Start date
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i belive we lowered them until now. or completly ingored it
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Well errr... you'd need to see the debate it had to do with that her range would than increase as well and there for her reset attack would beable to reach zumas in other timelines even tho it normally only has universal Range...Ricsi-viragosi said:
I do believe she won with this logic...
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we dont increase size, only speed, even if you put her at the same speed as an omnipresent that would only give her infinite speed, as she would be able to hit something instantly, if that is the logic by which she won it should be requested to be removed
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It is gone I figered somone realized saying speed E affects range doesn't make sense. I just wanted to ask how that's supposed to work.
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that shall be, but including also cooldowns etc...Assaltwaffle said:
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omnipresence=infinite TRAVEL speed
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that depends on type of omnipresenceRRTheEndMan said:
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ah, no, 4d omnipresent is immesurable, and a 3d is infiniteJobbo said:
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Omnipresence is a concept rather than an actual speed rating and there are different levels of omnipresence. But it's basically a way of saying Infinite and/or Immeasurable speed via sheer size. Omnipresence on a 3-D scale is Infinite Speed, but 4-D or above is Immeasurable.
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That makes no sense. The only thing that should be equalized is the combatants' speed. As in their physical capabilities. Where do people get the idea that this equalization applies everywhere? It doesn't just stop applying to increase the speed of yourself via time hax.This goes for all boosts. All it does is affect the base. Not anything else.TDarkDragonMedeus said:
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I mean, we also tend to equalize attack speed, such as two characters who are Hypersonic with a Lightspeed weapon and a Massively Hypersonic character who also carries normal guns, for some reason. The laser weapon and bullets get equalized as well. They're still physical projectiles.
GoldenScorpions
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At the very least, attack speed should never be equalized. If combat speed is equalized, atk speed should then either stay as it is, or changed to be proportionate to the new combat speed.
GoldenScorpions
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Also, what about movement speed? If for example, 2 characters have Supersonic combat speed, but A has Transonic movement speed and B has Supersonic+, what happens then?
GoldenScorpions
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But B's c-speed is higher than his m-speed. Which means, for B to apply his Supersonic+ m-speed, he'd have to go through his Supersonic c-speed, no?
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Should I remind people that black holes can be used as a fictional weapon sometimes.
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I like GS's proportional equalization idea. Might take extra calcs and math or estimates but the general idea is spot on. And, I guess in cases like what you guys are saying, combat and movement speed are Equalized all around...? Like, in terms of physicals, combat and movement should be equalized, while reactions and projectile attack speed stay proportional to their user.
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...in my opinion-
> Combat speed (save in exceptional cases where it would cause some notable unfairness to one side) should be equalized low. This makes more sense than equalizing high, to me, because a character with higher showings could feasibly "slow down" and still be within the means available to them as per their feats showings. Speeding a slower character up to match a faster one feels disingenuous to me because it presumes that a character is capable of things that they've never demonstrated capable of, which itself goes against the spirit of trying to discern who would win in a Vs Debate to begin with. It also makes more sense than "standard human perspective" to me, both because it simply lines up more with fiction possessing feats that are faster than what we as humans can accomplish and because of travel speed's influence on Versus debates (see below.) It would also make most characters completely unable to avoid bullets, lightning, light, etc. even if they actively did so constantly within their own verse (unless you wanted to make bullets move at the pace of a sluggish walking human, in which case... lol.)
> Travel speed should be correspondingly nerfed to match the character's new combat speed for as long as that character is actively engaged in conflict with another character, but not necessarily to match the travel speed of the opponent.
For example, say character A is a speedster within their own verse that possesses an FTL speed rating. I want them to fight character B, who is Sub-Relativistic with Massively FTL+ combat speed, and so I equalize speed between them. Character B would have their combat speed reduced to FTL (equal to Character A's), but Character A's travel speed would remain at FTL rather than being "equalized" to Sub-Relativistic.
Whether or not this would matter in a Vs Debate is a case-by-case basis- typically, the answer is probably no, but it's worth noting that exceptions definitely exist. For example, Gilgamesh overcame Hakume here with the assistance of a far higher movement speed, in combination with better range/mobility/danmaku and such. If the latter were able to better close the distance in this instance, the fight may have gone much differently...
Another example: Character X is Massively FTL+, and is matched up against Character Y, who has High Hypersonic speeds. Character X would have High Hypersonic combat, reaction, and travel speed while actively engaged against Character Y. However, Character Y has a power that banishes someone to some far away place in the universe- within their own Verse, such a power is considered frighteningly effective. However, Character X, by their consistent showings, should be able to counter this win condition of Character Y's by simply returning to Earth within a few minutes, surprising Character Y (though, Character Y may in theory be able to react here, as if X goes to engage Y the two have effectively equal speed once again.) To say that X should have "equalized" speed outside of their direct confrontation with Y is to contradict the purpose of equalizing speed in the first place: not to actively nerf one character, but to facilitate a fair combat between that character and their opponent.
To me, it's the same reason we wouldn't think to "equalize hax resistance" if say, Character C can resist Character D's hax via their own feats/scaling/etc., even though Character D's hax is supposed to be irresistible within their own verse. If one character has a reliable counter to another character's means of victory, removing that via "equalization" doesn't seem to constitute fairness in a Vs Battle setting.
> If a character has an attack speed that is very noticeably distinct from their combat speed- enough so to warrant a unique attack speed rating- then that should probably not be equalized. A Massively Hypersonic character who regularly throws around "real" lightning and fights others who also do so, but is "equalized" to a Supersonic character, would probably have the speed of their lightning attacks slowed down as well, in order to better match up to how fast relative to themselves these attacks are. Conversely, if a character has some unique weapon or attack that fires an orbital laser from space, but is otherwise Subsonic, that would probably remain a "real" laser, and thus lightspeed, as it is a phenomenon independent of that character's regular combat speed showings.
The same thing goes for reaction speed, in my opinion: if it is observably different from their combat speed, then it should probably not be equalized, or at the very least remain similarly proportionally higher than the character's new (equalized) combat speed. Many characters have exceptionally heightened perception and reactions as a explicit power they possess, relative to how fast they fight, and to deprive them of such a power seems tantamount to the prior example in that it needlessly violates the character's identity as it correlates to a Vs Debate.
...
Granted, this is all just my two cents, so make of it what you will. It just seems the most in line with my own philosophy regarding what Versus Debates and this site in general purport to measure as accurately as it can. Figured I'd throw it out there.
> Combat speed (save in exceptional cases where it would cause some notable unfairness to one side) should be equalized low. This makes more sense than equalizing high, to me, because a character with higher showings could feasibly "slow down" and still be within the means available to them as per their feats showings. Speeding a slower character up to match a faster one feels disingenuous to me because it presumes that a character is capable of things that they've never demonstrated capable of, which itself goes against the spirit of trying to discern who would win in a Vs Debate to begin with. It also makes more sense than "standard human perspective" to me, both because it simply lines up more with fiction possessing feats that are faster than what we as humans can accomplish and because of travel speed's influence on Versus debates (see below.) It would also make most characters completely unable to avoid bullets, lightning, light, etc. even if they actively did so constantly within their own verse (unless you wanted to make bullets move at the pace of a sluggish walking human, in which case... lol.)
> Travel speed should be correspondingly nerfed to match the character's new combat speed for as long as that character is actively engaged in conflict with another character, but not necessarily to match the travel speed of the opponent.
For example, say character A is a speedster within their own verse that possesses an FTL speed rating. I want them to fight character B, who is Sub-Relativistic with Massively FTL+ combat speed, and so I equalize speed between them. Character B would have their combat speed reduced to FTL (equal to Character A's), but Character A's travel speed would remain at FTL rather than being "equalized" to Sub-Relativistic.
Whether or not this would matter in a Vs Debate is a case-by-case basis- typically, the answer is probably no, but it's worth noting that exceptions definitely exist. For example, Gilgamesh overcame Hakume here with the assistance of a far higher movement speed, in combination with better range/mobility/danmaku and such. If the latter were able to better close the distance in this instance, the fight may have gone much differently...
Another example: Character X is Massively FTL+, and is matched up against Character Y, who has High Hypersonic speeds. Character X would have High Hypersonic combat, reaction, and travel speed while actively engaged against Character Y. However, Character Y has a power that banishes someone to some far away place in the universe- within their own Verse, such a power is considered frighteningly effective. However, Character X, by their consistent showings, should be able to counter this win condition of Character Y's by simply returning to Earth within a few minutes, surprising Character Y (though, Character Y may in theory be able to react here, as if X goes to engage Y the two have effectively equal speed once again.) To say that X should have "equalized" speed outside of their direct confrontation with Y is to contradict the purpose of equalizing speed in the first place: not to actively nerf one character, but to facilitate a fair combat between that character and their opponent.
To me, it's the same reason we wouldn't think to "equalize hax resistance" if say, Character C can resist Character D's hax via their own feats/scaling/etc., even though Character D's hax is supposed to be irresistible within their own verse. If one character has a reliable counter to another character's means of victory, removing that via "equalization" doesn't seem to constitute fairness in a Vs Battle setting.
> If a character has an attack speed that is very noticeably distinct from their combat speed- enough so to warrant a unique attack speed rating- then that should probably not be equalized. A Massively Hypersonic character who regularly throws around "real" lightning and fights others who also do so, but is "equalized" to a Supersonic character, would probably have the speed of their lightning attacks slowed down as well, in order to better match up to how fast relative to themselves these attacks are. Conversely, if a character has some unique weapon or attack that fires an orbital laser from space, but is otherwise Subsonic, that would probably remain a "real" laser, and thus lightspeed, as it is a phenomenon independent of that character's regular combat speed showings.
The same thing goes for reaction speed, in my opinion: if it is observably different from their combat speed, then it should probably not be equalized, or at the very least remain similarly proportionally higher than the character's new (equalized) combat speed. Many characters have exceptionally heightened perception and reactions as a explicit power they possess, relative to how fast they fight, and to deprive them of such a power seems tantamount to the prior example in that it needlessly violates the character's identity as it correlates to a Vs Debate.
...
Granted, this is all just my two cents, so make of it what you will. It just seems the most in line with my own philosophy regarding what Versus Debates and this site in general purport to measure as accurately as it can. Figured I'd throw it out there.
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Well, to be fair, it would be nice to actually see threads with speed unequalized. The problem is that speed stomps are pretty much the most common types of stomp threads.
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If the definition of speed equalized is going to be revised though, 90% of matches on this wiki would need to be redone/removed.
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- Thread starter
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Not really. Most of them are fine as is, since we will leave the exact method of equalization up for grabs. There is no reason to jump to this kind of major revision, especially more the more casual side of the Wiki. We'll just practice what gets put into place here moving forward and create a Speed Equalization page.Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
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It should probably be specified by the OP by what extent speed is equalized; to be fair, equalizing only certain aspects of speed attack speed can be a little complicated to comprehend. If the OP specifies it, it's fair game, but equalizing all categories of speed does seem like the most straightforward and linear answer.
I do generally prefer if only combat speed is equalized or if it's specified to which end speed gets equalized, or even better yet having speed unequalized still makes the fight more legit. But I already explained above why speed equalization is still allowed.
I do generally prefer if only combat speed is equalized or if it's specified to which end speed gets equalized, or even better yet having speed unequalized still makes the fight more legit. But I already explained above why speed equalization is still allowed.
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Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
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99% of matches here would be gone then
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because equalizing powers makes a fight completly redundant, while equalizing sopeed doesent tend to nullfy all of theyre powers and hax
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I think we should default to equalizing combat speed only and equalizing low. I feel like this is what most people infer as the correct option anyway.DarkDragonMedeus said:
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I think we should default to equalizing combat speed only and equalizing low. I feel like this is what most people infer as the correct option anyway.
IMO Equalized for Standard Perspective is the best option
IMO Equalized for Standard Perspective is the best option
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