Speed downgrade: PC Superman and SBP

[DarkDragonMedeus]

So you admit that he even travelled to another universe but Infinite is a metaphor ? WTF

Traveling to other universes is just a Dimensional Travel feat, it's not even a speed feat.

Tbf, Supes's flight speed has always been portrayed as comparable to his combat speed. I think the bigger issue honestly is that I don't think most characters should even scale to Superman's Immeasurable stuff but that's a whole other thread.

There tends to be back and forth stuff, but he easily has Massively FTL+ perception feats and the Massively FTL+ speed feats have plenty of combat/reaction speeds to go with the flight speed examples. But traveling forward/backward in time is something a lot of Supermen can do, even the nerfed movie counterparts. But they clearly have finite reactions speeds in numerous other fight scenes. Likewise, there are times where Superman accidently traveled too far back in time beyond what he intended. Which is commonly seen as a good reason for his alleged Immeasurable speed feats to not scale to his combat.

 

[Tllmbrg]

By the way, weaker characters like bloody Streaky break the time barrier by accident through their speed, so I really doubt you can separate it from combat speed if they can go at those speeds without even noticing

 

[57Dev]

Traveling to other universes is just a Dimensional Travel feat, it's not even a speed feat.

Done via pure speed.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Done via pure speed.

I know, he was flying monodirectional and happened to enter other universes, writers do not really always follow logic. But "Flying so fast you entered other Space-Time continuums is not something we can calculated, nor does it justify an Infinite/Immeasurable speed rating. But VSBW indexing standards, it's just a feat for having Dimensional Travel as an ability.

 

[57Dev]

I know, he was flying monodirectional and happened to enter other universes, writers do not really always follow logic. But "Flying so fast you entered other Space-Time continuums is not something we can calculated, nor does it justify an Infinite/Immeasurable speed rating. But VSBW indexing standards, it's just a feat for having Dimensional Travel as an ability.

I am not going to debate a super mod especially when my knowledge on comics is not that deep so well good luck to you guys to resolve the speed rating.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

I see where OP is coming from in all respects, but I have my disagreements.

Immeasurable (Is a sentient timeline and exists outside of the flow of linear time)

As far as Superboy-Prime goes, the contention places too much emphasis on him "existing beyond linear time" when the full justification is that he simultaneoulsy exists as a sentient timeline, and from what I understand, while higher-dimensional existence never grants incalculable speeds in itself, embodying a whole space-time continuum is different since Immeasurable Speed is ultimately defined as percieving time as a navigable dimension in the same manner as a spatial dimension, which is the implication of someone physically, mentally, and in all sense of the word outright being a whole temporal dimension, though I might need clarification on this.

1) Pre-Crisis Superman:
So basically this version of superman has immeasurable speed rating for breaking the boundaries of space and time but the scan also says that
"Until he surpasses the speed of light itself"
Which should be consistent from this scan where it says that
"Swifter than the speed of light, swifter than time itself. The Man of tomorrow streaks through the barriers of space and time"
So this makes it consistent that Clark does this via FTL time travel ability and not via sheer speed. And his breaking of the boundaries of space and time is also a by product of this ability which the 2nd scan contextualizes.

Now this one's a bit more nebulous. First things first, if what I'm hearing is true and in context, he's only traveling to different Universes via speed and not time traveling via speed in these instances, the feats in question are definitely unusable since dimensional travel via movement doesn't grant incalculable speeds and is in fact, only taken as an anti-feat for different Universes being spatiotemporally separate.

Secondly, for DDM's reasons, I agree that if the feats are legit, they shouldn't scale to combat speed.

And thirdly, I agree with the opposition that the text always depicts these feats as FTL—>Time Travel. The scans all say some variant of "he breaks the speed of light, but that wasn't enough, now he flies beyond barriers of space-time." Though the scans often mention breaking the speed of light and transcending space-time in concert, I don't think there's a clear correlation/causation between the two.

My overall stance is that if the feats used depict dimensional travel rather than time travel, they should definitely be removed. If they depict time travel, it should be downgraded to Likely/Possibly Immeasurable Travel Speed.

 

[Hellformer]

Damn just opened this CRT and the notifications popped out of no where.

 

[Hellformer]

@DarkDragonMedeus Have you changed your opinion or is it still the same?

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

This thread focuses on downgrading speed tiers of two alternative versions of supermen due to their current reasoning being bad-
1) Pre-Crisis Superman:
So basically this version of superman has immeasurable speed rating for breaking the boundaries of space and time but the scan also says that
"Until he surpasses the speed of light itself"
Which should be consistent from this scan where it says that
"Swifter than the speed of light, swifter than time itself. The Man of tomorrow streaks through the barriers of space and time"
So this makes it consistent that Clark does this via FTL time travel ability and not via sheer speed. And his breaking of the boundaries of space and time is also a by product of this ability which the 2nd scan contextualizes.

This is, honestly, just a bad interpretation from your part

The first scan doesn´t shows he breaking the "Boundaries of space and time" due to being faster than light, actually, he continues to travel normally after reaching such speeds, but then becomes more faster and is able to break the supposed barries, the scan doesn´t says that he is doing so because of FTL travel, just that there was a point that he travelled faster than light and then later become even faster than that at the point he is able to perform such a feat

Also, he going faster than Infinity itself, already is, considering the context of the panel, an Immeasurable Speed feat

The second scan is even worse, when you travel at Immeasurable Speeds you also travel faster than light, and he is doing both on this case, there is no correlation between he travelling faster than light and, due to that, travelling faster than time

2) Superboy-Prime:

This version of Superman has immeasurable speed rating via existing beyond linear time which I don't need to explain how wrong and outdated it is.
Immeasurable speed: Movement unbound from the flow of linear time, which cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined, the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed.

Actually, this would give him temporal omnipresence and Acausality (Type 3), due to being the timeline itself

 

[Antvasima]

Based on what Jason Courne posted earlier in this thread, I think that Immeasurable speed can remain for these characters.

 

[Hellformer]

This is, honestly, just a bad misinterpretation from your part

The first scan doesn´t shows he breaking the "Boundaries of space and time" due to being faster than light, actually, he continues to travel normally after reaching such speeds, but then becomes more faster and is able to break the supposed barries, the scan doesn´t says that he is doing so because of FTL travel, just that there was a point that he travelled faster than light and then later become even faster than that at the point he is able to perform such a feat

Also, he going faster than Infinity itself, already is, considering the context of the panel, an Immeasurable Speed feat

The second scan is even worse, when you travel at Immeasurable Speeds you also travel faster than light, and he is doing both on this case, there is no correlation between he travelling faster than light and, due to that, travelling faster than time

No that's not how you interpret it. The 2nd scan literally says that swifter than the sol, swifter than time itself. Implying that swifting through time is a by product of FTL travel. Regarding you saying that Immeasurable speed is already FTL then please go ahead and explain that from comic point of context just like how I did via the 2nd scan.

Actually, this would give him temporal omnipresence and Acausality (Type 3), due to being the timeline itself

Still not Immeasurable speed though.

Read Superboy(1949)#3
The context of this comic is Superboy traveling to different points in time via FTL ability. And to remind you it's directly next to the comic issue which you shared. So my guess work was right

And I've already given another piece of evidence for time travel being a by product of FTL travel ability in the pre-crisis era. So please do not insert any headcanon.

I know, he was flying monodirectional and happened to enter other universes, writers do not really always follow logic. But "Flying so fast you entered other Space-Time continuums is not something we can calculated, nor does it justify an Infinite/Immeasurable speed rating. But VSBW indexing standards, it's just a feat for having Dimensional Travel as an ability.

While regarding breaking the bonds of Infinity, DDM has already explained it.

 

[Hellformer]

Based on what Jason Courne posted earlier in this thread, I think that Immeasurable speed can remain for these characters.

Well okay

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

No that's not how you interpret it. The 2nd scan literally says that swifter than the sol, swifter than time itself. Implying that swifting through time is a by product of FTL travel.

It ins´t saying that he is travelling faster than time due to FTL movement, but only that he is doing both at the same time

Simple text interpretation

Regarding you saying that Immeasurable speed is already FTL then please go ahead and explain that from comic point of context just like how I did via the 2nd scan.

I honestly can´t understand what you mean, lol

If are requesting the context, the pages themselves explain it tbh

And I've already given another piece of evidence for time travel being a by product of FTL travel ability in the pre-crisis era. So please do not insert any headcanon.

Is he even Time Travelling in the image? It says he is only going through multiple points of the planet

While regarding breaking the bonds of Infinity, DDM has already explained it.

Break "The boundaries of space and time" ins´t a Immeasurable feat

Outrun Infinite itself at the point of "bursting" through it is

Still not Immeasurable speed though.

Yes, i´m saying a rating that can replace the one he currently have

 

[AerrowStorm1]

One sec. Don't close this. I have a bunch of Legion of Superheroes scans to debunk this

 

[Hellformer]

It ins´t saying that he is travelling faster than time due to FTL movement, but only that he is doing both at the same time

Simple text interpretation


I honestly can´t understand what you mean, lol

If are requesting the context, the pages themselves explain it tbh

Do I have to explain it again?
Swifter than the speed of light, swifter than time itself which implies that time travel is a result of traveling FTL

Is he even Time Travelling in the image? It says he is only going through multiple points of the planet

I said read the context of that comic(already given the issue).
SBP is travelling to different points in time and that certain scan which I presented shows that he does it via FTL

Break "The boundaries of space and time" ins´t a Immeasurable feat

Which is a by product of FTL Time travel ability

Yes, i´m saying a rating that can replace the one he currently have

Okay

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Do I have to explain it again?
Swifter than the speed of light, swifter than time itself which implies that time travel is a result of traveling FTL

My point still stands:

It ins´t saying that he is travelling faster than time due to FTL movement, but only that he is doing both at the same time

I said read the context of that comic(already given the issue).
SBP is travelling to different points in time and that certain scan which I presented shows that he does it via FTL

I´ve read the comic

The context is that he wanted to prove for his classmates that some things they learned in history class was real, so he travelled to the past to take a picture of these events, but the film of his camera get blurry, so he tries to make the historical feats by himself

He wasn´t time travelling when he performed the FTL feat, he was just travelling around the world, these are completely different moments in the story

Which is a by product of FTL Time travel ability

No, it ins´t, i already explained

 

[Antvasima]

So what should currently be done here exactly?

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

So what should currently be done here exactly?

@DarkDragonMedeus is the only who agreed with the thread

You, @Emirp sumitpo and @Maverick_Zero_X disagreed with it

Edit: Medeus changed his vote to disagree

 

[Hellformer]

My point still stands:

So does mine

Do I have to explain it again?
Swifter than the speed of light, swifter than time itself which implies that time travel is a result of traveling FTL

I´ve read the comic

The context is that he wanted to prove for his classmates that some things they learned in history class was real, so he travelled to the past to take a picture of these events, but the film of his camera get blurry, so he tries to make the historical feats by himself

He wasn´t time travelling when he performed the FTL feat, he was just travelling around the world, these are completely different moments in the story

Travelling around the world to do what exactly? To go back in time and prove certain things. So context is crystal clear that he travels to different points in time which around the world. Which is what FTL travel ability is. So do not mix and match the context with your headcanon.

No, it ins´t, i already explained

.....

 

[Hellformer]

So what should currently be done here exactly?

For now I think we can remove immeasurable rating for superboy prime but for PC superman this thread might extend.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I disagree with removing the Immeasurable ratings for Pre-Crisis Superman as well to be clear.

Temporal Omnipresence and Acausality for SBP also seems fine.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

So does mine

No, it doesn´t

You didn´t prove how them, as two different sentences, correlated to each other

Travelling around the world to do what exactly? To go back in time and prove certain things. So context is crystal clear that he travels to different points in time which around the world. Which is what FTL travel ability is. So do not mix and match the context with your headcanon.

It´s funny that you are talking about "headcanon" when the story doesn´t even talks about he going back in time while travelling through the world, it just says that he is travelling around the world

So i ain´t the one making the headcanon

.....

So what should currently be done here exactly?

For now I think we can remove immeasurable rating for superboy prime but for PC superman this thread might extend.

I think it´s better to see staff opinions about the Temporal Omnipresence + Acausality proprosal in relation to Superboy prime

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

I disagree with removing the Immeasurable ratings for Pre-Crisis Superman as well to be clear.

What do you think of this proposal?:

Actually, this would give him temporal omnipresence and Acausality (Type 3), due to being the timeline itself

 

[AerrowStorm1]

It's explictly stated the time barrier is beyond the lightspeed barrier. You can't just go FTL to time travel, you have to go so fast, you break the time barrier.

Explained here in The Flash. and again here.

Cruisers are faster than light but they don't time travel.

Also, for the record "Swifter than light, swifter than time" are two independent clauses. It's the same thing as saying "faster than sound, faster than light" by showing an escalation in speed. An example here where it's explicitly shown the Time barrier is past the sound and light barriers.

Golden Age Superman exceeds the speed of light, but doesn't time travel until he breaks the time barrier, proving the two are separate.

Another example

Action comics 300, Superman states that he'd need "unlimited speed" to crack the Time Barrier.

Oh, and Superboy can react while time-traveling.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

Oh, another example: Superboy explictly breaking the speed of light without even seeing the Time Barrier, more proof that the two are separate. Superboy 162

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

What do you think of this proposal?:

I agree.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

Oh, here's ANOTHER example of the two being separate.
DC comics presents #13, Superman is explicitly travelling FTL, but isn't anywhere near the Time barrier until Dawnstar amps his speed.

And Clark explicitly states he was controlling his speed to not approach the time barrier, so he does it via sheer speed and it's not simply going FTL.

 

[Jason_Courne]

It's your burden to prove that time travel isn't done simply by going FTL. I've already explained my part multiple times and you're going circular

Because it's being explicitly stated he is moving faster than time itself. The logic of FTL = Time travel only works if the concept of moving faster than time isn't mentioned or present. For example Shinra is FTL because that is enough to time travel according to his verse, in Back to the Future 88 miles per hour was enough to time travel, however in Superman's case, it is explicitly required Superman must travel faster than time to time travel

Simply saying "Faster than light, faster than time" does not mean moving FTL is moving faster than time, it simply means Superman is doing both

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

While I agree that simply stating "FTL" isn't a counter argument against Time Travel or Immeasurable speed, or that his Time Travel ability is an Immeasurable travel speed feat that he does regularly. But I am still not convinced that we should just assume it scales to combat speed or that it's consistent with combat speed. And especially since examples such as the aforementioned "Streaky flew so fast he broke the time barrier and traveled through time by accident" is commonly something we use as an argument that feats like that are unlikely to scale to combat speed.

Though, some of the scans Maverick linked earlier can/should be added to the profile to justify the "Can easily travel through time" statement on the page.

 

[Robo432343]

what do you guys think of, "immeasurable at peak"

 

[Jason_Courne]

While I agree that simply stating "FTL" isn't a counter argument against Time Travel or Immeasurable speed, or that his Time Travel ability is an Immeasurable travel speed feat that he does regularly. But I am still not convinced that we should just assume it scales to combat speed or that it's consistent with combat speed. And especially since examples such as the aforementioned "Streaky flew so fast he broke the time barrier and traveled through time by accident" is commonly something we use as an argument that feats like that are unlikely to scale to combat speed.

I think this specific feat was used because it involved Superman reacting to Supergirl as he flew

 

[Kroneii1]

Following

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

While I agree that simply stating "FTL" isn't a counter argument against Time Travel or Immeasurable speed, or that his Time Travel ability is an Immeasurable travel speed feat that he does regularly. But I am still not convinced that we should just assume it scales to combat speed or that it's consistent with combat speed. And especially since examples such as the aforementioned "Streaky flew so fast he broke the time barrier and traveled through time by accident" is commonly something we use as an argument that feats like that are unlikely to scale to combat speed.

Superman showed to be capable of thinking and reacting to his movement while doing the Immeasurable Speed feats, so i don´t see why it shouldn´t scale to his combat speed

 

[AerrowStorm1]

While I agree that simply stating "FTL" isn't a counter argument against Time Travel or Immeasurable speed, or that his Time Travel ability is an Immeasurable travel speed feat that he does regularly. But I am still not convinced that we should just assume it scales to combat speed or that it's consistent with combat speed. And especially since examples such as the aforementioned "Streaky flew so fast he broke the time barrier and traveled through time by accident" is commonly something we use as an argument that feats like that are unlikely to scale to combat speed.

Though, some of the scans Maverick linked earlier can/should be added to the profile to justify the "Can easily travel through time" statement on the page.

Here's Clark stopping and turning around mid-time travel. Superboy and the Legion of Superheroes #199

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Flumpty Bumpty

.

.

What do you think of this proposal?:

Actually, this would give him temporal omnipresence and Acausality (Type 3), due to being the timeline itself

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

It makes sense, but preferably, you get some scans and sources for it first.

 

[Firestorm808]

Will look into later today.

 

[Antvasima]

It makes sense, but preferably, you get some scans and sources for it first.

Agreed.

 

[Firestorm808]

Unless it's consistent in the series that FTL = Time Travel

The Pre-Crisis scans just suggests that going beyond time and space is some unknown degree above FTL. I suppose this is fine.

Regarding Superboy, not only do we not have a scan, but we don't have a practical example of this speed at play. Do we have any examples?

 

[Robo432343]

another immeasurable speed feat in action comics#311