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Sonic The Hedgehog vs Son Goku (comic book edition)

Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Saiyan Saga Goku can't use Kaioken times 10 and Kaioken times 3 massively depletes his power in that saga, which is why he needed Kaioken times 4 to overpower Vegeta's Galick Gun while demolishing Vegeta beforehand with Kaioken times 3

Also, even if Goku is slightly stronger in Kaioken times 3, his stamina is very low with this since he literally just got Kaioken and the Saiyan Saga was the first time he ever used it
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He states he can use it (It being Kaioken X10). I also have a theory that it doesn't deplete power but more that Kaioken and Kamehameha don't combine multiplier (yes they have multipliers) and because the both multiply base power instead of current power it's 3x Goku's Base (Kaioken) and ???x (for Kamehameha) so it's not 3x ???Base its. 3x Base + ???x base. And Vegeta's base is bigger than Goku's. Or Vegeta Galick Gun has a bigger multiplier. The less complicated answer.
 
DivineAura44 said:
He states he can use it. I also have a theory that it doesn't deplete power but more that Kaioken and Kamehameha don't combine multiplier (yes they have multipliers) and because the both multiply base power instead of current power it's 3x Goku's Base (Kaioken) and ???x (for Kamehameha) so it's not 3x ???Base its. 3x Base + ???x base. And Vegeta's base is bigger than Goku's. Or Vegeta Galick Gun has a bigger multiplier. The less complicated answer.
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He states he can use Kaioken times 10 AFTER already training on his way to Namek, where he got massively stronger than before and we don't use that Goku here since he stomps Sonic.

Also your entire reasoning for Goku's winning is based on headcanon theory which you didn't even provided proof to why this is the case. Also, Kaioken is stated to strain the body and is very tiring to use for a long time, especially with high levels of it. Kaioken can even cause the body to be sick if abused too much, which would be devestating for Goku
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
He states he can use Kaioken times 10 AFTER already training on his way to Namek, where he got massively stronger than before and we don't use that Goku here since he stomps Sonic.

Also your entire reasoning for Goku's winning is based on headcanon theory which you didn't even provided proof to why this is the case. Also, Kaioken is stated to strain the body and is very tiring to use for a long time, especially with high levels of it. Kaioken can even cause the body to be sick if abused too much, which would be devestating for Goku
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First like I said the Kaioken is about mastery not strength. Someone who knows x4 only probably wouldn't be self training in a gravity training with a dangerous transformation. I guess I can see your point.

As for the second part, the first theory is headcanony but makes sense and if the Galick Gun having a greater multiplier is a head-canon so is saying he lost power cuz it doesn't state that. All it does is put strain on the body/drain stamina.
 
DivineAura44 said:
First like I said the Kaioken is about mastery not strength. Someone who knows x4 only probably wouldn't be self training in a gravity training with a dangerous transformation. I guess I can see your point.

As for the second part, the first theory is headcanony but makes sense and if the Galick Gun having a greater multiplier is a head-canon so is saying he lost power cuz it doesn't state that. All it does is put strain on the body.
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1) Exactly. Goku has NO mastery over the Kaioken in this key. He literally just got the technique in the same arc and could only push it to very low levels, and even that is very straining for him at this point. Don't understand why you keep ignoring this point. We're talking about Saiyan Saga Kaioken Goku, not ToP DBS Goku who can comfortably use SSBKK20

2) Headcanon is still headcanon. At least try to provide any sort of proof so we would have a reason to accept your theory, but as of now you base your argument on headcanon that has literally no proof to support it
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
1) Exactly. Goku has NO mastery over the Kaioken in this key. He literally just got the technique in the same arc and could only push it to very low levels, and even that is very straining for him at this point. Don't understand why you keep ignoring this point. We're talking about Saiyan Saga Kaioken Goku, not ToP DBS Goku who can comfortably use SSBKK20
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If you are admitting it's using mastery than X10 should apply to Saiyan Saga.
 
DivineAura44 said:
If you are admitting it's using mastery than X10 should apply to Saiyan Saga.
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You sure love ignoring my arguments aren't you? I literally said Goku had no mastery over kaioken, and King Kai freaked out when Goku was forced to use Kaioken times 3, fearing the strain would tear Goku's body. And he barely held Kaioken times 4 for a few seconds before dropping out of kaioken completely
 
As all he did for training in a gravity chamber. If you are assuming he was training in a place with intense gravity and then using a grueling transformation you're BSing. You're basically telling me in 5 months he learned X4 and then with no trainer learned X10 (in 6 days lemme clarify and on top of that Kaioken should have no strain in the Otherworld, and he should have infinite stamina so longer holds and can train without sleep)? Sounds and smells like cap.
 
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Gilad_Hyperstar said:
You sure love ignoring my arguments aren't you? I literally said Goku had no mastery over kaioken, and King Kai freaked out when Goku was forced to use Kaioken times 3, fearing the strain would tear Goku's body. And he barely held Kaioken times 4 for a few seconds before dropping out of kaioken completely
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That was the point I was making with the mastery part
DivineAura44 said:
As all he did for training in a gravity chamber. If you are assuming he was training in a place with intense gravity and then using a grueling transformation you're BSing. You're basically telling me in 5 months he learned X4 and then with no trainer learned X10? Sounds and smells like cap.
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this.
 
DivineAura44 said:
As all he did for training in a gravity chamber. If you are assuming he was training in a place with intense gravity and then using a grueling transformation you're BSing. You're basically telling me in 5 months he learned X4 and then with no trainer learned X10 (in 6 days lemme clarify and on top of that Kaioken should have no strain in the Otherworld, and he should have infinite stamina so longer holds and can train without sleep)? Sounds and smells like cap.
Click to expand...
Yes. Because Goku had to get adjusted to King Kai's planet gravity before being able to effectively train there (which took some time), then he needed more time to unlock kaioken and ALSO learn the spirit bomb

In his way to Namek, Goku trained far more intensly and could do very straineous training session in 100G, which is ten times more than the gravity on King Kai's planet
 
Also I'm using canon feats and what actually happened. You on the other hand, never provided a single proof to your claims and base your argument on baseless theories
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Yes. Because Goku had to get adjusted to King Kai's planet gravity before being able to effectively train there (which took some time), then he needed more time to unlock kaioken and ALSO learn the spirit bomb

In his way to Namek, Goku trained far more intensly and could do very straineous training session in 100G, which is ten times more than the gravity on King Kai's planet
Click to expand...
Ya um, you kinda say he trained in more intense gravity then King Kai's, probably wouldn't be able to train in Kaioken under those conditions. Even assuming Spirit Bomb took most of his days, in which as I said he spent 5 months so he probably had like 2/3 weeks of Kaioken Training. (Assuming Spirit Bomb and Adjusting to gravity would take a whole 4 and 1/3's months, saying he could do a 2.5x stronger Kaioken under worse conditions with no trainer and most likely less time is a bit much yeah?
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Also I'm using canon feats and what actually happened. You on the other hand, never provided a single proof to your claims and base your argument on baseless theories
Click to expand...
The beams having multipliers is canon. Kaioken depleting power is not stated. Depleting stamina? Yes. Adding strain? Definitely. Reducing power? Where?
 
First power and power level are two different things. Second that's was not nessecarily stamina drain. It was Frieza not mastering Golden. (Do not compare that Kaioken for the love of god. 2 WAYYYY different forms.)
 
DivineAura44 said:
First power and power level are two different things. Second that's was not nessecarily stamina drain. It was Frieza not mastering Golden. (Do not compare that Kaioken for the love of god. 2 WAYYYY different forms.)
Click to expand...
Power levels are a way to measure power in DB. It's not linear with AP, sure, but it's still valid to determine scaling.

And you completely missed the point regarding Golden Frieza. The point was that his transformation drained so much energy from him that he eventually got so weak to the point he could no longer affect SSB Goku, while beforehand he was manhandling him and had a clear advantage.

Kaioken in that regard works the same way. The technique in the Saiyan Saga is so straining on Goku's body that he can barely keep this on for long, especially if he decides to increase the multiplier even more. His AP advantage isn't also nearly enough to defeat Super Sonic that quickly, and will be draining is stamina very quickly when he'll try maintaining kaioken for too long. Eventually, Goku would be too weak and exhausted to use the kaioken, which would lead to Sonic winning
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Power levels are a way to measure power in DB. It's not linear with AP, sure, but it's still valid to determine scaling.

And you completely missed the point regarding Golden Frieza. The point was that his transformation drained so much energy from him that he eventually got so weak to the point he could no longer affect SSB Goku, while beforehand he was manhandling him and had a clear advantage.

Kaioken in that regard works the same way. The technique in the Saiyan Saga is so straining on Goku's body that he can barely keep this on for long, especially if he decides to increase the multiplier even more. His AP advantage isn't also nearly enough to defeat Super Sonic that quickly, and will be draining is stamina very quickly when he'll try maintaining kaioken for too long. Eventually, Goku would be too weak and exhausted to use the kaioken, which would lead to Sonic winning
Click to expand...
They don't have PL's in Super, that's why I said that.
Kaioken is never stated to have the same effects of unmastered GF.
Kaioken would exhaust him but the question is can Goku land a killing blow. And I think he can.
 
DivineAura44 said:
They don't have PL's in Super, that's why I said that.
Kaioken is never stated to have the same effects of unmastered GF.
Kaioken would exhaust him but the question is can Goku land a killing blow. And I think he can.
Click to expand...
Sure he can, but can he do it in time before he'll exhaust his stamina with the Kaioken? I don't think so, especially since Goku's advantage over Sonic in terms of AP isn't really that big.

Also Sonic got abilities such as the boost, which massively increase his speed for a short while, shockwave generation to hit Goku from afar, can create forcefields to protect himself, produce whirlwinds and also has accelerated development, meaning he gets passively stronger and faster overtime
 
Huh? Vegeta was planet level and he got stomped by KK3x so KKx4 should completely destroy. And goku was already tired before accessing KKx4 and he was still fighting AFTER he used it.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Huh? Vegeta was planet level and he got stomped by KK3x so KKx4 should completely destroy. And goku was already tired before accessing KKx4 and he was still fighting AFTER he used it.
Click to expand...
Stomp in DB =/= Stomp in VS matches for characters that aren't from the same verse.

In Dragon Ball, the stomp value is very low and it's possible to one shot the other side with 2 times the AP advantage or less

However, in VS matches between teo different verses, the accepted difference in order to one shot is 7.5 times, since for each verse there is a diffferent stomp value (the difference in power needed to one shot anothet character), which Goku's AP advantage is most definitely far less than it. Hell, it's not even 2 times since he's Planet level only starting from Kaioken times 3
 
DivineAura44 said:
They don't have PL's in Super, that's why I said that.
Kaioken is never stated to have the same effects of unmastered GF.
Kaioken would exhaust him but the question is can Goku land a killing blow. And I think he can.
Click to expand...
well they DO have PL’s in Super but Toriyama just realized Power levels all bullcrap. They just don’t use them that much.
 
I never said that goku one-shots. I already knew about this. the point is that goku is above baseline planet in KKx3 and is much stronger in KKx4, this means he got a clear skill and AP advantage.
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Sure he can, but can he do it in time before he'll exhaust his stamina with the Kaioken? I don't think so, especially since Goku's advantage over Sonic in terms of AP isn't really that big.

Also Sonic got abilities such as the boost, which massively increase his speed for a short while, shockwave generation to hit Goku from afar, can create forcefields to protect himself, produce whirlwinds and also has accelerated development, meaning he gets passively stronger and faster overtime
Click to expand...
When I meant he can before the exhaust. The massive increase in speed will be countered by X4 most likely. He can use it but I think Goku can catch him with it first. It's instant power vs. holding out. Also the whirlwinds are speed and I doubt Goku can't do that either. Also Goku can use many techniques of his own. Kienzan can probably cut through wind being able to cut through the strongest materials. Goku can use Solar Flare to get in close as well.
 
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