Sonic revisions and some questions

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I can agree that the Eggmen planning to create their own world is Low 2-C, butthe Sol Emeralds nearly merging/destroying the both of Sonic's and Blaze's worlds is certainly 2-C.

The Power of the Stars stabilizes the space-time of two universes, and the Time Eater erased space-time across two worlds yet said destruction was instantly reversed by the Chaos Emeralds as stated on Sonic's profile:

https://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Classic_Sonic%27s_world

https://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Sonic%27s_World

That's 4 2-C feats that Super Sonic can scale to counting Solaris. @Zamasu, what changes are you proposing here?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I address your points tomorrow. I'm gonna sleep, I had along day.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Again, three 2-C feats, not four. Sonic's feat after Time Eater being tier 2, let alone 2-C, is a hilariously bad argument.

And yes, the variable tier is the main thing supporting tier 2 Sonic. RWBY as a whole, Kirby's fodder, Mario, Superman. All of them have around as many feats above what they're rated at as Sonic (if not more) and they're hilariously less of a gap (except Supes) than Sonic's variable. The variable tier is the only thing that's keeping Sonic from being in their shoes.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Restoring two timelines is pretty straightforward 2-C.

It kinda hurts those guys you mentioned when they don't have a super form or anything that lets them jump tiers. Mario and Luigi defeated Dreamy Bowser without being powered up by anything for example.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm almost positive this didn't happen the way you're saying it. That sounded mean and that's not my intent as I think you're really cool and I don't wanna throw shade at you. You're gonna need to link the scene.

You're acting like Super Forms don't show times where they're outdone by things that are High 6-A. 2-C's far from their average.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I already see two problems with both feats you mentioned. In Sonic Generations everything is literally restored before the fight with the Time Eater, so it's likely the broken space time returned back to normal after going through the levels. The only thing that really happened was everyone getting BFR'd back to the present after Time Eater was defeated. Hell it could even be reversed effects of the Time Eater's doing because he was defeated. You can't just assume that's how things went. I could even say after the fight Modern SS and Classic SS went to their own timelines and restored it separate but at the same time, making that a low 2-C feat for both. It's like saying base Sonic is MFTL+ for RuNnInG hOmE from the Arabian Knights world.

For Sonic Rush I said over and over again that both sets of emeralds are causing the merging of space time. Even if it was just the Sol Emeralds that would be PIS because in Sonic Rush Adventure both parallel worlds are still intact despite the chaos emeralds being in blazes world and even being close together on more than one occasion.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

1) Dark649 could honestly explain that better since he brought that up about Super Sonic's range. Although the whole theme of Generations was that Time Eater would destroy time and space and Sonic would restore it.

2) Saying something "over and over again" doesn't make it any less false. Egg Wizard used the Power of the Stars, Egg Salamander used the Sol Emeralds.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

2) Saying something "over and over again" doesn't make it any less false. Egg Wizard used the Power of the Stars, Egg Salamander used the Sol Emeralds.

Are you ignoring what I'm saying dude? I'm literally giving you an explanation but you're just saying nope this is false. Allow me to be more specific then. In Sonic Rush 1 the sol emeralds are destroying both universal space time continuums causing a slow merging because they're in Sonic's dimension, meaning the merging of dimensions is happening under specific circumstances. The Eggmen also to create their own world with the Egg Salamander (idek why you keep mentioning the Egg Wizard when that's not even the main focus). There's even some extra stuff at the end of the game. Blaze says the chaos and sol emeralds can't be in the same world or else it'll cause another crisis, meaning the universal merging is the doing of both emeralds. In Sonic Rush 2 the chaos emeralds are in Blazes dimension but nothing happens. Strange isn't it?

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

And? Are you trying to say the Sol Emeralds aren't 2-C? Because they're basically alternate Chaos Emeralds. Otherwise I don't see what you're trying to prove here.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Yes I am trying to say they aren't 2-C. Did you not understand that before?

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Even though that's literally a 2-C feat, Egg Salamander was powered by them, and Burning Blaze defeated the Egg Wizard along with Super Sonic.

 

[Dark649]

They are 2-C, i have already explained it in my blog on the verse page. The Trio Super Forms are at least 5-A to 2-C.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

". Blaze says the chaos and sol emeralds can't be in the same world or else it'll cause another crisis, meaning the universal merging is the doing of both emeralds."

Would you mind elaborating on this? Because this sounds like a textbook chain reaction...

 

[Dark649]

Did not played the Rush series, but what mainly happens in the game is due to the emeralds.

 

[Executor_N0]

There's even some extra stuff at the end of the game. Blaze says the chaos and sol emeralds can't be in the same world or else it'll cause another crisis, meaning the universal merging is the doing of both emeralds. In Sonic Rush 2 the chaos emeralds are in Blazes dimension but nothing happens. Strange isn't it?

Do you know why ? In the end of Sonic Rush Sonic says that if him or Blaze undestand how to control the power of the emeralds, then nothing bad will occour. So yes, the Emerald can cause a dimensional colapse, but not if the ones that controls the emeralds can use then in the right way.

 

[Executor_N0]

Would you mind elaborating on this? Because this sounds like a textbook chain reaction...

No, a chain reaction is when something starts a cycle of destruction when something when destroyed lead to another thing begin destroyed and so on. Like when a atom colapse and then the reamins lead to the colapse of another atom and this repet. So the only thing that needs to happens is the frist colapse, all the others will happen without any amount new amount of energy.

Emeralds attract, and this also affects the original reality of each, making as the emeralds attract, the universes also attract because of the power of the emeralds. This ends up generating a collapse in continuous space-time that would destroy everything.

The same power of the emeralds that could destroy the universes, could also be used to create new universes like Eggman and Eggman Nega would do. So there's no way to fit into "chain reaction," unless you wanted to say that there is some sort of chain reaction to creating new universes, which has never been said within the Sonic franchise (at least not a universe that would be greater than two other universes)

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

@Cal. Yes like a chain reaction, something similar to Buuhan's vice shout or better yet Beerus vs Champa.

@Executor. That doesn't matter tho. The emeralds weren't always in Sonic's grasp. The emeralds themselves cause the dimensional distortion, not the user.

@Dark. Do you have a link to the blog?

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

And? Super Sonic and Burning Blaze are directly powered by the Emeralds.

 

[Dark649]

Sonic explains it here, the blog is here. Classic and Modern Super Sonic defeated the Time Eater and fixed all the damage the Time Eater caused, which includes the White Void, a realm composed of stolen areas from other timelines.

 

[Executor_N0]

@Executor. That doesn't matter tho. The emeralds weren't always in Sonic's grasp. The emeralds themselves cause the dimensional distortion, not the user.

It's matters because is the oficial reason of why the world if fine and not destroyed. It is certainly an incoherent explanation, but it is the official explanation and that is what we have to explain it.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Ok first off what evidence is there that the PoTS is above baseline anyway? As far as I'm considered it only sustains the two dimensions.

Second, Sonic specifically says whoever's hold the chaos emeralds can stop the merging madness but the chaos emeralds are scattered across islands in Blaze's dimension. This entire concept is completely thrown out the window along with the Egg Wizard.

Third, speaking of the Egg Wizard, Eggman says, without hesitation, that both emeralds can't even compare to the compare to the PoTS, but what happens? The Egg Wizard is defeated (Oh look an inconsistency, you'll find a lot of those in Sonic games).

Fourth, again I say when Eggman is talking about the Egg Salamander, why does he only refer to one world? Eggman could have said that he'll create new worlds with the emeralds but nope, it was only one world with the power of one set of emeralds.

Fifth, and do not mention this again, I know that low 2-C x 2 does not equal 2-C. I have addressed this many times and I'm fully aware of tier 2 rules. Do not use this argument against me again because it's redundant and you have to keep in mind fiction does not follow our rules. With that being said, it's heavily implied that the emeralds on their own are not 2-C. The Egg Salamander's universal statement, the PoTS control over parallel worlds seeming suddenly impressive, the need of two emeralds sets for an incoherent 2-C feat, needing 2 super forms to fight a low 2-C Time Eater, hell even the smash 4 description says that the chaos emeralds have enough power to warp the world.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

1) POTS sustains the existence of parallel dimensions including Sonic's and Blaze's. That's above baseline as it implies other dimensions besides theirs.

2) And? What are you trying to argue here?

3) Like Maverick already said, hubris.

4) You're delving too deep into semantics here. He just wanted to create one world.

5) None of Time Eater's attacks could harm the two Sonics and it got overwhelmed by them. Also don't use Smash, it's non-canon.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

2. I'm saying that the emeralds are in Blaze's dimension but not tearing anything apart. Although Sonic knows how to stop the destruction he still needs to be holding one or at least be within vicinity.

3. Even if it is hubris that doesn't deny the fact that everyone else was scared of the Egg Wizard, Sonic himself even Says that it's too much for him to handle.

Both of these point out the inconsistencies.

The Egg Salamander is capable of harming the super forms but not the Egg Wizard even though the Egg Wizard is superior to the Salamander.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

2) And that is relevant to their tier how?

3) Doesn't matter. It still got defeated by Burning Blaze and Super Sonic.

5) Egg Wizard And Egg Salamander are about the same. Plus Sonic and Blaze do go "ow" when Egg Wizard's attacks hit them.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Say ow really? I guess Time Eater is more than capable of completely obliterating both super forms if Sonic's friends keep on telling him to look out for it's attacks.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Except that's directly contradicted by Time Eater's attacks being shown to hit them and they don't get phased. No "ow" or rings being knocked out.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Oh now you wanna talk contradictions, kind of a double standard if you ask me.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Ok now this is going nowhere. @Dark649, feel free to close this debunked thread.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Shadow you literally gave my responses vauge answers, you were basically the only person consistently responding to this thread and now you want it closed?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

This is going no where because nobody is understanding what I'm saying. I will state my reasons and try to be more specific this time. So give me a few minutes.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

No man, we do understand what you're saying. We just don't agree with what you're proposing because it's based off faulty reasoning.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Allow me to explain. All of Sonic's feats through power scaling are very inconsistent and contradictory so I'll be looking at actual feats themselves NOT boss battles until necessary.

Starting with the Sonic Rush, both emeralds are merging both parallel worlds because they are in the same plane of existence. This merging scenario is done under specific circumstances and never happens again when it's supposed to happen (it even contradicts Sonic's statement about making sure the events don't happen again). It's never stated that the emeralds by themselves are capable of merging worlds, only stated to create worlds. Eggman says with the power of the sol emeralds he will make a new world.

In Sonic Rush 2 the POTS are superior to the Chaos and Sol because it's stronger than their combined might of merging two worlds yet they defeat it and don't even take damage.

In Sonic Generations both space times are being restored over the entire course of the game and after the boss battle it's unclear what happens, but it's likely that both time lines were restored. However a hypothetical feat like that is only universal+ because each hedgehog could have went to their own dimension and restored it at the same time.

Now for the bosses. They're inconsistent of course and I generally disagree with some scaling from bosses even from different fictions. You have all these statements about characters being stronger than one another but they're all thrown out the window because of plot. The Power of the Stars are superior to the emeralds but for some reason Egg Wizard can't even dent the super forms. This is the Same thing in Sonic Forces. Sonic needs help from the OC to beat Infinite. Eggman then uses a death egg robot in battle that actually surpasses infinite but it's defeated. Even the 8-A classic Sonic is able to damage it but he doesn't even scale. Inconsistencies with boss battles aren't new to Sonic which is another reason why I wanted to downgrade Sonic. The only things keeping Sonic at 2-C are assuming the chaos emeralds scale to a situational merging, stupid scaling, hypothetical events and variable tiers.

I really only wanted Super Sonic's tier to be "at least 5-A possibility low 2-C" with the full power of the emeralds, and a 2-B Solaris. I really hate inconsistencies and Sonic can literally just be rated anything at this point. I tried my hardest to look deep into things for a while s all I wanted was a sonic profile that wouldn't be questioned so much.

And I should've asked this a long time ago. Why does one set of emeralds scaling to something only two of the emeralds are capable of performing? We really don't know specifically how it works but the power more than likely increases because it's two sets of emeralds. What if it has a set multiplier (although it sounds like I'm taking this too far) and if it's two universes what can possibly be lower than that if it's not low 2-C?

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Allow me to explain. All of Sonic's feats through power scaling are very inconsistent and contradictory so I'll be looking at actual feats themselves NOT boss battles until necessary.

Starting with the Sonic Rush, both emeralds are merging both parallel worlds because they are in the same plane of existence. This merging scenario is done under specific circumstances and never happens again when it's supposed to happen (it even contradicts Sonic's statement about making sure the events don't happen again). It's never stated that the emeralds by themselves are capable of merging worlds, only stated to create worlds. Eggman says with the power of the sol emeralds he will make a new world.

Doesn't have to be stated that they can do that when it's explicitly shown to be merging the dimensions.

In Sonic Rush 2 the POTS are superior to the Chaos and Sol because it's stronger than their combined might of merging two worlds yet they defeat it and don't even take damage.

What part of "hubris" don't you get? It's more like Eggman overestimated the POTS compared to the Emeralds.

In Sonic Generations both space times are being restored over the entire course of the game and after the boss battle it's unclear what happens, but it's likely that both time lines were restored. However a hypothetical feat like that is only universal+ because each hedgehog could have went to their own dimension and restored it at the same time.

That's a range feat when Cal questioned Sonic having low multiversal range.

Now for the bosses. They're inconsistent of course and I generally disagree with some scaling from bosses even from different fictions. You have all these statements about characters being stronger than one another but they're all thrown out the window because of plot. The Power of the Stars are superior to the emeralds but for some reason Egg Wizard can't even dent the super forms. This is the Same thing in Sonic Forces. Sonic needs help from the OC to beat Infinite. Eggman then uses a death egg robot in battle that actually surpasses infinite but it's defeated. Even the 8-A classic Sonic is able to damage it but he doesn't even scale. Inconsistencies with boss battles aren't new to Sonic which is another reason why I wanted to downgrade Sonic. The only things keeping Sonic at 2-C are assuming the chaos emeralds scale to a situational merging, stupid scaling, hypothetical events and variable tiers.

Do you mean to imply that statements > feats? Because that's not how it works and that is terrible reasoning to suggest that Sonic and co don't scale. If the statements contradict feats of the characters, then the feats will hold more water in gauging their stats.

I really only wanted Super Sonic's tier to be "at least 5-A possibility low 2-C" with the full power of the emeralds, and a 2-B Solaris. I really hate inconsistencies and Sonic can literally just be rated anything at this point. I tried my hardest to look deep into things for a while s all I wanted was a sonic profile that wouldn't be questioned so much.

Sonic is one of the most popular video game franchises out there. A series this popular is bound to get questioned a lot on where they rank and lots of people will disagree with each other. It's unavoidable, and you just have to do your best at making sure your side of the argument is backed by proper facts.

And I should've asked this a long time ago. Why does one set of emeralds scaling to something only two of the emeralds are capable of performing? We really don't know specifically how it works but the power more than likely increases because it's two sets of emeralds. What if it has a set multiplier (although it sounds like I'm taking this too far) and if it's two universes what can possibly be lower than that if it's not low 2-C?

Chaos Emeralds don't have a set multiplier. It multiplies exponentially the more you have.

Replies in Bold.

 

[Genericstickman]

2-B Solaris sounds interesting

 

[Dark649]

- Blaze stated that Sonic's and Blaze's universes were merging due to the emeralds, this links to Eggman statements and them defeating the Egg Salamender and Wizard. This stuff does not downgrade them.

- It's game mechanic that the player does not take damage upon the boss fight.

- Despite the Area's being cleared, the White Void is still present. After the boss fight both Sonic's made the void disappear and restored all the stages to their time periods [including the Sonic 06 stage which was erased from the main timeline], since it quickly happens after a loading i think they both restored at the same time rather than splitting and going to their own dimension.

- Again game mechanic, Eggman can't dent Base Sonic either because he only loses rings and is not physically damaged if that logic is applied. Infinite is a foe which was noted to be stronger that Sonic, despite increasing his power during the course of the game Sonic needed to OC in order to defeat Infinite and weaken the Death Egg. Classic Sonic [who defeated a Chaos Clone that even the Resistance fodder can defeat] only broke the Death Egg visor, which is much less durable that its other parts, by throwing rocks and not by phisically damage it himself, then later dealt the finish blow to it alongside Modern Sonic and the OC. Sonic defeating Solaris, Time Eater, The Egg Salamender, Wizard and etc. happened, these are not hypothetical events and stupid scaling, neutral about the variable tiers.

- I also tried to make Sonic consistent, and i'm ok on how he is rated. I disagree with the thing that Sonic can be rated anywhere, also Solaris being 2-B is on the speculation territory and should be not considered because despite threating all the universes's, he never entered/threatened the Imaginary World and never clashed/fought Illumina, the lack of informations on this part does not make him 2-B.

- Because the Sol Emeralds are the Chaos Emeralds of Blaze dimension, and their close connection in Sonic Rush is a thing to note about it, including all the feats can that affect two or more universe, which are 2-C. The other stuff was already said by other users.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Wait a second, The merging of worlds is a feat the only 2-C feat in the Rush series. Everything else is a statement about how strong said object is. Also after reading what you said about the power of the emeralds increasing the more there are could that be another reason why the universes started merging? Just a question. And please tell me what tier would you be if you're more than half as strong as a baseline 2-C? Because I'm starting to loose my mind (it's not you or anything, I guess I just have myself in a loop).

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

My account was glitching out so now I'm seeing your replies. Can you address the both emeralds merging the worlds please? I've only gotten a vauge answer for that. If two low 2-C characters fused into one and performed a 2-C feat would the low 2-Cs scale.