Son Goku (SSGSS) Vs Hao Asakura

[Davy0]

First off, that's a fallacious statement.

Hana was not superior to his uncle in any way, shape or form. If you're gonna create a doppleganger of someone, you should have their level of power to do so, or some type of "hax" involved with the character. But that hasn't shown, so you can't say he can create a "Goku" of equal power. Because he hasn't been shown fighting against someone equal to, or superior to his power. Nor with enough power or hax to best Goku. Try again.

 

[Muu0934]

The problem with this is that Hao's omnipresent and he can read minds so Goku blitzing him is nigh impossible. Also he doesn't really have to tank anything as He could just absorb his soul but for the sake of the fight lets go for another route. Goku does really have a way to approach Hao due to the prominence pillars and I doubt he has a counter to the supernova/black hole combo: even if Goku somehow tanks the former I don't see how he escapes the latter. Also killing Hao doesn't actually do anything unlessGoku somehow beats GS as well.

 

[Davy0]

All I'm hearing, are words that are used way too much in fiction. Considering the threat that the group in Flowers posed, that probably isn't true. Omnipresent only means he's all seeing, has he ever been seen reacting to a character moving at several times the speed of light. That's reactions, not sight, he can be capable of "seeing" anything he wishes, but reacting to it with his body, that's a different story. Absorb his soul? Again, Goku is several times more powerful than any soul he has ever absorb he has absorbed at anytime. If he hasn't been shown absorbing someone as strong as Goku, we can't say he can. "Supernova/Blackhole" combo, you mean those attacks that we don't actually know as actual Super Novas, or Black Holes? What has he destroyed with them, what has their destructive capacity turned out to be. Have they annihilated palnets, Goku is far superior to a "Super Nova", he's Solar System Buster as well as a Tanker.

Again, Hao hasn't shown to tank anything. We don't know if his Omnipresence even is what it is, thanks to a lack of feats. Omnipresence is a word overused by fiction, so how do you know that his Omnipresence actually exists as what "true" Omnipresence exists as. Do you have feats of GS resisting a Solar System Busting Kamehameha to the face?

 

[Muu0934]

Omnipresent means he's everywhere which is evident by the end of Shaman King and Shaman King flowers. Goku's soul still acts like every other dead spirit: heck Vegeta, Buu,Frieza, and Goku himself still have to deal with King Yemma so I don't get why that would actually save Goku: if anything it would suggest that Hao is still far superior as his verse has a King Yemma which he's superior to.

As for the supernova/black hole does it really matter how it's created as its a black hole: as the saying goes if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck. It helps that its formation is the same as a real world one as described here: http://www.*********.co/manga/shaman_king/v33/c299/22.html Also as SoF, something that was created from GS, has real world feats matching Lyserg's usage of it during their battle with Hao.

Goku's not exactly SS level though as he's not exactly on par with Beerus who's star level. Scaling off of Whis also doesn't work as Whis>>>Goku. Even if he were Hao has more than enough resources to deal with it before Goku could ever get one of those out especially since he's been affected by things that are lesser. Heck Revival of F proved that Godly ki doesn't provide total immunity to outside influence.

 

[Undylan]

Dude, Goku is SS level powerscaling from batting Beeurs who said to destory the solar system in a wink of a eye by his master Whis.

 

[Davy0]

That literally proves nothing about his ability to tank attacks from Goku. You quite literally just said nothinjg, especially considering he was taking attacks from inferior fighters like the Five Elemental Warriors, even if they didn't do anything. So you don't have feats, got it.

It does matter. Because people calling something a black hole, and then it not being an actual black hole (unless the Five Warriors got a massive power boost we don't know about, or that "Black Hole" isn't as realistic as you think it is) through feats, isn't really reasonable. Especially considering that you have no real showings of it being a black hole. Same for the Super Nova. We can call techniques whatever names we wish to , what matters is what they actually do.

Beerus is star level, when he's bored. We have yet to see his powers that lend to statements from a character several times more powerful than he is, has trained him thus knows exactly how strong his powers are, and has enough power to effortlessly defeat him with the most simple of moves. Star Level, also was last season, these characters are above that. The simple fact that he could fight Beerus who has the power to destroy a Solar System in the "wink of an eye" at 70% power is more than enough. Sorry. Who is talking about an immunity, he can't even catch Goku, he hasn't been shown reacting to what Goku has, he has showed no feats that place him a Universal Level.

This is the same BS they have on Haruhi, she's Universe Level, yet it doesn't mean crap since all you have to do is kill the girl. You have no feats that suggest how much more powerful GS is than Goku, and you probably never will.

The strongest characters in Shaman King are City Block to Multiblock Busting at best from showings. Far inferior to what Goku can accomplish, even if he was just "star level". These characters were Single to Double Digit Hypersonic at best. Far inferior to what Goku is. They don't have Goku's power, so it doesn't really matter. Unless you have definitive proof, he can be as Omni-whatever in his universe as he wishes, he isn't beating Goku. Hell, I doubt he could beat Yamcha.

 

[Muu0934]

A black hole is a black hole so I'm not seeing you're logic here: its origin wouldn't change the overall effect it has. There's Hao's black hole: http://www.*********.co/manga/shaman_king/v33/c299/22.html and a real one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole. The former matches the criteria described in the latter.

Also if we're really going to go off of "only on panel" logic then Goku isn't even planet level as he technically hasn't destroyed or deflected anything of that effect in the DBZ manga: if we take it further Frieza and Kid Buu are the only planet busting characters using that framework. So that was some pretty bad low-balling.

Also that would make Beerus SS level and Goku close to it as he'd still need Vegeta's to actually beat Beerus in a fight as of Revivial of F. But again assuming Goku's SS level in DC, how does that save him from Hao's abilities? He can't blitz Hao due to omnipresence, pre-cog, and mind reading, he's still vulnerable to soul absorption and has no defense against the Supernova/black hole attack. Thanks to the pillars getting close is also out of the question. Unless Goku can destroy GS, which I doubt, then he has no real way of putting Hao down for good.

 

[The_Everlasting]

You do realize Goku is millions of times FTL, he could just dodge the black hole and be lightyears away before it could reach him. Besides, I'm no physicist, but I'm pretty sure you only need Star Level/Solar System Level durability to survive inside a black hole.

It's because we have no way of knowing the statements are valid, DBZ operates on powerscaling, otherwise there'd really be nothing to fight for, as Earth would be obliterated literally quintillions of times over with just one ki blasts each time.

It's rather easy to defeat omnipresent beings, just be stronger, like when the party fought Giygas in Earthbound. Simply existing everywhere does not grant you immediate victory. If anything, it's actually easier to hit omnipresent beings, since they exist everywhere so no matter where you throw a punch you can still hit them.

 

[Davy0]

Yes, I guess that would matter. Too bad it doesn't, as again, it hasn't shown any feats. Not one of the Five Warriors were sucked into it despite them not showing feats capable of moving at Light Speeds before this fight. Elec Bang is the best move they have, and that would only be MHS if we go by this places definition of how fast a lightning bolt travels.

Goku is superior to those who have destroyed planets, ahas fought beings with the cells of said beings, has gone against a character who has literally destroyed multiple planets before fighting them using techniques and been capable of hurting them significantly. That's all he needs, unlike hao who has never fought anyone who was superior to him, who doesn't have enough feats to be considered a threat against Goku. Who also moves immensely faster than him, even before God Ki. Goku has deflected a Planet Burst with his bare hands, right before it exploded and threw it in mid-air. He has also in the canon movies, almost stopped a serious attack from Beerus with his barehands once again, and absorbed it. One that was easily Planet Busting.

Super Nova isn't actually a Super Nova unless you can show what it was used to destroy other than those Five Warriors bro, and I just explained the Black Hole BS, if Yoh and his friends can resist it, Goku can do so as well, because unlike them, Goku can be powerscaled to characters like Beerus' who wasn't even trying when he performed his feat of traversing at least a nebula at, at least, a thousand times the speed of light, at 1 minute and 20 seconds, comparable to his master Whis who calls himself the "fastest" in the universe. He can have all the Pre-Cog, "Omni Presence", and Mind Reading he wishes for, he has nothing that can beat Goku. The Soul Absorption thing was again, done against characters who are inferior to Goku.

Try again.

 

[Muu0934]

How's Goku million of times FTL? In fact BoG and Revival of F debunked all of the previous assumptions we had on DBZ. Just using those two movies Whis is the only character that's actually FTL. Take it further and at best we'd have Beerus who performed the first legit FTL feat in Dragon Ball Super.

Normally I'd have no problem believing that Goku would now be capable of tanking black holes. However Goku's fight with Golden Frieza challenges the potency of Godly ki and we know now that no DBZ character aside from gods could have ever been capable of that level of durability.

Now while Beerus and Whis could solidly beat Hao I'm not seeing how that would apply to Goku especially since we know he can be affected by less.

 

[Davy0]

You do realize Goku is millions of times FTL, he could just dodge the black hole and be lightyears away before it could reach him. Besides, I'm no physicist, but I'm pretty sure you only need Star Level/Solar System Level durability to survive inside a black hole.
It's because we have no way of knowing the statements are valid, DBZ operates on powerscaling, otherwise there'd really be nothing to fight for, as Earth would be obliterated literally quintillions of times over with just one ki blasts each time.

It's rather easy to defeat omnipresent beings, just be stronger, like when the party fought Giygas in Earthbound. Simply existing everywhere does not grant you immediate victory. If anything, it's actually easier to hit omnipresent beings, since they exist everywhere so no matter where you throw a punch you can still hit them.

The Black Hole thing doesn't matter, unless he has proof that the Five Warriors were Lightspeed or higher in the time these techniques were being performed. They should have been crushed into a singularity as soon as it came.

Characters who have the ability to fight and resist attacks from other characters who can obliterate star systems, should have the ability to do so themselves unless otherwise stated. That's what "feats" are. He doesn't get that.

This in a nutshell. He hasn't shown anything, nothing against foes superior to himself. Nothing to scale from, nothing that says those attacks were realistic nor that those abilities while using Super Nova were real either. Hell, a lot of attacks like Big Bang and Super Nova have the names, but not the same functions.

 

[The_Everlasting]

It's because Beerus flew nearly as fast as Whis in episode 2, and in DBZ combat speed > travel speed. Goku will still have to fight Beerus and later Frieza, so he's still solar system level.

What do you mean by that?

Not really, SSG Goku was (According to Akira Toriyama), equal to 60% of Beerus' full power (On a numerical scale he said Goku was a 6, Beerus a 10 and Whis a 15), which he should have seriously upgraded with the training in-between Battle of Gods and Resurrection F, I'd say about 70% or more. Note that just because Whis said Goku and Vegeta could defeat Beerus together does not mean they are both equal to a 50% Beerus, with the whole Toriyama statement I mentioned.

 

[Davy0]

How's Goku million of times FTL? In fact BoG and Revival of F debunked all of the previous assumptions we had on DBZ. Just using those two movies Whis is the only character that's actually FTL. Take it further and at best we'd have Beerus who performed the first legit FTL feat in Dragon Ball Super.
Normally I'd have no problem believing that Goku would now be capable of tanking black holes. However Goku's fight with Golden Frieza challenges the potency of Godly ki and we know now that no DBZ character aside from gods could have ever been capable of that level of durability.

Now while Beerus and Whis could solidly beat Hao I'm not seeing how that would apply to Goku especially since we know he can be affected by less.

Actually, now at the Second Episode, they've been shown flying MFTL. Go check on the feats, we've been talking about it the entire month, should be easily found. Look for "Beerus' Speed".

Uh... Because Beerus again. Goku could fight against Beerus', and Whis comments that Vegeta and Goku could possibly beat Beerus together, now. They'v ebecome stronger than Beerus at 70%, who was told to be capable of obliterating Star Systems.

The simple fact that he can HURT Beerus gives him the right to be scaled to him, what you "feel" on it means nothing. If Hao had the feats I wouldn't be here complaining on people wanking the hell out of a Shaman King character whose feats are ambiguous at best. Show me the feats, the power scaling, or even the powers. And I'll give this to you handily, but don't say that this guy has powers surpassing Goku's without actual feats. Did he destroy planets? Stars? Star Systems. Then please, show those feats, don't show some stupid lines which we can't trace from.

Something like this , is all you need.

 

[Davy0]

It's because Beerus flew nearly as fast as Whis in episode 2, and in DBZ combat speed > travel speed. Goku will still have to fight Beerus and later Frieza, so he's still solar system level.
What do you mean by that?

Not really, SSG Goku was (According to Akira Toriyama), equal to 60% of Beerus' full power (On a numerical scale he said Goku was a 6, Beerus a 10 and Whis a 15), which he should have seriously upgraded with the training in-between Battle of Gods and Resurrection F, I'd say about 70% or more. Note that just because Whis said Goku and Vegeta could defeat Beerus together does not mean they are both equal to a 50% Beerus, with the whole Toriyama statement I mentioned.

Yep.

That's between you and him. Frankly I think he's on those last legs.

True. But the guy has never been good with numbers.

 

[Muu0934]

It's because Beerus flew nearly as fast as Whis in episode 2, and in DBZ combat speed > travel speed. Goku will still have to fight Beerus and later Frieza, so he's still solar system level.
What do you mean by that?

Not really, SSG Goku was (According to Akira Toriyama), equal to 60% of Beerus' full power (On a numerical scale he said Goku was a 6, Beerus a 10 and Whis a 15), which he should have seriously upgraded with the training in-between Battle of Gods and Resurrection F, I'd say about 70% or more. Note that just because Whis said Goku and Vegeta could defeat Beerus together does not mean they are both equal to a 50% Beerus, with the whole Toriyama statement I mentioned.

That's the feat I'm referring too. Not sure how that would make him millions of times FTL though. I am convinced on the DC issue but Hao still has way of mitigating that: durability is a whole different issue.

While the initial impression was given that only gods could fight those with god ki, Golden Frieza throws that assumption out the window as his new form was achieved by pushing the limits of his abilities and unlocking power based on his biology. So the fact that Golden Frieza can fight Goku and Vegeta despite not have godly ki challenges the hype behind god ki that was established in BoG.

This is why I said Beerus and Whis would beat Hao but not Goku and Vegeta. Goku and Vegeta are still tied to the laws of their own afterlife while Hao is beyond his.

 

[Davy0]

Not even gonna bother.

When did anyone ever say such a thing? It gives you an advantage in combat for being capable of sensing a God, Goku got stronger by turning into SSJG, absorbing that, and then absorbing Beerus' ki into himself which probably increased those parameters even further. What you said doesn't mean a damned thing unless you find the statement that said "only a god can kill a god".

You do realize that anyone in DBZ can die, right?

 

[The_Everlasting]

I know right, what does that even mean?

I think that was a fan theory that only those with God ki could hurt others with God ki, which was already thrown out the window when Vegeta hurt Beerus, though I've heard some fans agrue it was his blood that spilled out, not Beerus'.

Well, except for Garlic Jr. but you're still right. Also, being "beyond the afterlife" (Whatever that means) doesn't mean you can't die.

 

[Davy0]

Garlic Jr isn't a canon character, and I don't take GT as canon. All I see is "DBZ the Later Years" a fanfic created to keep the love of DB alive, but failed in the most terrible way...

 

[Muu0934]

I know right, what does that even mean?
I think that was a fan theory that only those with God ki could hurt others with God ki, which was already thrown out the window when Vegeta hurt Beerus, though I've heard some fans agrue it was his blood that spilled out, not Beerus'.

Well, except for Garlic Jr. but you're still right. Also, being "beyond the afterlife" (Whatever that means) doesn't mean you can't die.

DBZ character have rather lackluster durability feats due to Toriyama's seemingly not caring about consistency.

Yes that the theory I'm referring to which was all the rage back when BoG first came out and was debunked in Revival of F. My point is that we're assuming that Goku gains an increase in durability despite being hurt by random lasers and that outside of god ki, DBZ characters wouldn't have FTL feats or Star busting durability.

By beyond the afterlife I meant beyond the kaoshin and deities which is something that everyone has to deal with i.e. Vegeta, Buu, Frieza, Goku. When someone dies they have to go through King Yemma, a being that Hao is beyond. This all relates to the claim that soul absorption wouldn't work on Goku. Hao can't die though, least not convensionally, as he's one with GS: killing Hao doens't actually do anything.

 

[DarkLordZeta]

First off, that's a fallacious statement.
Hana was not superior to his uncle in any way, shape or form. If you're gonna create a doppleganger of someone, you should have their level of power to do so, or some type of "hax" involved with the character. But that hasn't shown, so you can't say he can create a "Goku" of equal power. Because he hasn't been shown fighting against someone equal to, or superior to his power. Nor with enough power or hax to best Goku. Try again.

Yet he's technically God he can create what he wishes, you don't have to be of equal strength to create something stronger that doesn't make sense at all, look at Bibidi and Buu, Dr.Mu and Baby, Gero and the androids.

 

[Muu0934]

First off, that's a fallacious statement.
Hana was not superior to his uncle in any way, shape or form. If you're gonna create a doppleganger of someone, you should have their level of power to do so, or some type of "hax" involved with the character. But that hasn't shown, so you can't say he can create a "Goku" of equal power. Because he hasn't been shown fighting against someone equal to, or superior to his power. Nor with enough power or hax to best Goku. Try again.

Yet he's technically God he can create what he wishes, you don't have to be of equal strength to create something stronger that doesn't make sense at all, look at Bibidi and Buu, Dr.Mu and Baby, Gero and the androids.

I'd like to mention that Toriyama just rectonned Buu's origin but I see your point.

 

[The_Everlasting]

I know, but I just decided to mention him Davey0.

Lackluster? Vegeta was relatively unharmed by a punch from Beerus, Frieza survives Namek's explosion while half-dead, drained of ki and hit by Goku's Kamehameha. Trunks then cuts him up like butter and Goku blocks the strikes with one finger. The "lackluster durability feats" are most likely PIS or filler.

Again, that was PIS, Goku also tanked hits from Beerus. Having God ki means nothing except your ki can't be sensed by anyone else.

I'm pretty sure that's not how it works, unless Hao has type 5 immortality, he can still die, however hard it is.

 

[Davy0]

Better to be inconsistent than to have no feats to compare ones ability to.

On the God Ki subject, it also seems to mean that a person can breathe in space, considering the height of which Beerus and Goku fought from earth.

Hao hasn't been shown to be taking anything that can cause his immediate death. Still no feats, once again. All we have is his word. We don't have anything that can back it up but weaker individuals. It's why I take what the Kai's say over and over again with a grain of salt. But Whis, who has trained, is superior to, and has no problem bad mouthing Beerus has more credence than a statement from a Yoh who hasn't even shown a level of strength surpassing that of their "God".

 

[The_Everlasting]

So true.

 

[Muu0934]

I know, but I just decided to mention him Davey0.
Lackluster? Vegeta was relatively unharmed by a punch from Beerus, Frieza survives Namek's explosion while half-dead, drained of ki and hit by Goku's Kamehameha. Trunks then cuts him up like butter and Goku blocks the strikes with one finger. The "lackluster durability feats" are most likely PIS or filler.

Again, that was PIS, Goku also tanked hits from Beerus. Having God ki means nothing except your ki can't be sensed by anyone else.

I'm pretty sure that's not how it works, unless Hao has type 5 immortality, he can still die, however hard it is.

What strength feats does Beerus have that would warrant thta to be impressive. I'm not doubting their ability to tank high level energy output, which still doesn't warrant they'd tank a black hole, but physical events. Until DB Super, characters usually had low physical strength durabilty than their energy output DC. Example would be Frieza kicking a planet busting attack into space yet beign hurt by a lesser physical blow.

Well that mean that Godly ki doesn't give him an increase in durability. So how does Goku tank that Supernova/Black Hole when he hasn't shown anything close to that level of durability in the past?

Killing Hao's physical body does nothing to him. If Goku is capable of destroying GS then yes Hao would be defeated. I find this unlikely as GS encompasses the heaven and hell of his verse: aspect that Goku is not beyond in his own verse.

 

[The_Everlasting]

It's because they can hurt those with their level of durability, what verse isn't like that?

Yes, it put Goku on a certain level, it just doesn't make him completely immune to attacks from those without God ki.

Well, in Dragon Ball we see that spirits can still have an effect on the physical world (Vegeta was dead when he fused with Goku), and it's likely they can be killed as well, so there goes that.

 

[Muu0934]

It's because they can hurt those with their level of durability, what verse isn't like that?
Yes, it put Goku on a certain level, it just doesn't make him completely immune to attacks from those without God ki.

Well, in Dragon Ball we see that spirits can still have an effect on the physical world (Vegeta was dead when he fused with Goku), and it's likely they can be killed as well, so there goes that.

Frieza can tank planet busting attack yet is hurt by physical attacks much weaker than planet buster is what I'm getting at. It was also made to counter the point that Hao would loss for not busting a solar system on panel: using this logic would mean Goku/Beerus/Whis would also be less that SS level. There's room for reasonable assumption based on feats escpecially when Shaman King feats are nice enough to use real world numbers in their scaling.

So would that durability increase be enough to tank Hao's best IYO. If so then why, because so far Beerus could be anywhere as low as star level and as high as universe level: though I find the latter suspect as it lacks a time frame and solid evidence.

Vegeta technically got a pass so its not like Vegeta would be gone forever if he were killed. Killing GS is the equivalent of destroying heaven and hell which is something I doubt Goku could do. Though I've been meaning to as how exactly does Goku kills something that's omnipresent.

 

[Davy0]

Really... He effortlessly destroys a star while still sleepy and grouchy, has been commented on destroying two stars at the same time, and it's highly implied that it was with one ki blast. DB Super. Destroys half a world with a tap of his finger using ki, because ki is only as powerful as the user that has it. People were implying that Striking feats meant nothing for DB even though it was commented that to use those striking feats, one used ki. ki can be shaped into many different forms, its easiest form is using it as a melee weapon compared to blasts, and Piccolo even makes a comment on how the Z fighters use it, in which they strike at the point of impact to create more destructive hits, exactly what Beerus did.

Next comes the feat of using a small ki seedling which creates a literal Armaggedon on a planet, in Super's second episode. Again done so effortlessly.

No, what you're thinking of is physical lifting feats, and Goku just did a lifting feat, in his base form, on a planet that was 10 times earth's gravity at least that of a Class 70 to 80 range in weight, we don't even see the top end.

 

[The_Everlasting]

What attacks are you referring to?

Yes, as Goku is Solar System Level+ by virtue of fightning Beerus. Also, the "destroy the universe" thing (If you're referring to episode 3 of Dragon Ball Super) was likely over time, though I believe Beerus to be Multi-Galaxy Level+ since Toriyama said he can destroy the Kaioshin Realm, which is 1/5 of the universe.

The "got a pass" was that he could go to the living world and have his body.

Omnipresence =/= durability, heck Shrodinger, Elizabeth and the Lutece twins are omnipresent, who are clearly not universal. Hao would need a form to be able to combat Goku, and Goku could just destroy it.

 

[Davy0]

What attacks are you referring to?
Yes, as Goku is Solar System Level+ by virtue of fightning Beerus. Also, the "destroy the universe" thing (If you're referring to episode 3 of Dragon Ball Super) was likely over time, though I believe Beerus to be Multi-Galaxy Level+ since Toriyama said he can destroy the Kaioshin Realm, which is 1/5 of the universe.

The "got a pass" was that he could go to the living world and have his body.

Omnipresence =/= durability, heck Shrodinger, Elizabeth and the Lutece twins are omnipresent, who are clearly not universal. Hao would need a form to be able to combat Goku, and Goku could just destroy it.

He's talking about the fact that ki strikes can't be superior to ki blasts, because in his mind just like everyone elses, they can't have as much force as actual blasts, when that's a fallacy. It's using the same power of ki, to strengthen the characters melee combat skills, unless you can prove it's a different source of energy, a person's ki is just as comparable as their ki blasts, if not more so, it's adding the weight of their own striking force with their ki to maximize the amount of force given from an attack.

That's from WOG, and we still don't even accept that.

Yep.

This, too. The cat got obliterated multiple times, even though it was omnipresent. Omnipresence has nothing to do with durability.

 

[Muu0934]

What attacks are you referring to?
Yes, as Goku is Solar System Level+ by virtue of fightning Beerus. Also, the "destroy the universe" thing (If you're referring to episode 3 of Dragon Ball Super) was likely over time, though I believe Beerus to be Multi-Galaxy Level+ since Toriyama said he can destroy the Kaioshin Realm, which is 1/5 of the universe.

The "got a pass" was that he could go to the living world and have his body.

Omnipresence =/= durability, heck Shrodinger, Elizabeth and the Lutece twins are omnipresent, who are clearly not universal. Hao would need a form to be able to combat Goku, and Goku could just destroy it.

Vegeta getting frustrated an attacking Final Form Frieza whose responce was to kick the attack away. Yet Frieza was damaged by physical blows in his fight with Goku.

If Goku can tank a black hole then I supposed that would net him the durability advantage: again I doubt this due to Revival of F.

Hao can do the same thing only w/o permision and his version is permanent. As for the other examples, you're right that omnipresence doesn't equal durability but my point that Goku has no real way of putting Hao down is still good unless Goku can destroy GS. At best we'd have a stalemate.

 

[The_Everlasting]

To respond to Davey0:

I really don't see how he can think that.

I know, even though I don't feel it makes sense since I heard that the reason we don't accept it is because it's "too vague", even though the statement couldn't be more cut and dry if it tried.

True, the only thing that kept Schrodinger alive was his powers (As he literally can't die as long as he's aware of his own existence).

To respond to Muu0934:

Stop thinking they can't hit with the same amount of force, there's no proof they can't.

If you're referring to the "Earth explosion" thing, it either was because they couldn't breate in space or PIS. If you're referring to the laser, it was complete PIS.

You keep saying that Goku can't beat Hao because he's omnipresent, but I just debunked that. Vegeta was still terrified of Buuhan, implying Buuhan could hurt or kill him. And if we use anime feats (Which is really the only way I see us ending this faster), Kid Buu is explicitly show to be able to kill spirits.

 

[Davy0]

All of this, and this guy still has no feats to show how much superior Hao is to anyone in DB, all the people he fought were inferior to himself, and showed no where near the level of power Goku had in any case. If there was some definitive proof, we wouldn't be speaking on this. But all you're saying is that he's got some type of non-existent power. The Black Hole should have been the end of the Five Warriors, a Super Nova should have obliterated them regardless, but it didn't. All I'm hearing is that you're going by what you think Hao is capable of. Not a "without a doubt" notion.

I despise using Anime feats, I'm not going to go back on that. That would mean saying that GT exists in canon, it doesn't.

 

[Muu0934]

To respond to Muu0934:

Stop thinking they can't hit with the same amount of force, there's no proof they can't.

If you're referring to the "Earth explosion" thing, it either was because they couldn't breate in space or PIS. If you're referring to the laser, it was complete PIS.

You keep saying that Goku can't beat Hao because he's omnipresent, but I just debunked that. Vegeta was still terrified of Buuhan, implying Buuhan could hurt or kill him. And if we use anime feats (Which is really the only way I see us ending this faster), Kid Buu is explicitly show to be able to kill spirits.

Until someone blows up a planet with physical force I don't see why that point is incorrect. We've never seen this in either the manga or the movies. Beerus blowing up a planet was a ki strike which is something I wasn't referring to.

It wasn't the breathing in space thing, as this would actually make things easier for Hao considering his radiation pillars and black hole. Still referring to Golden Frieza being able to fight Goku.

Goku can't really kill him in the same way that he wouldn't be able to kill Schrodnger or the Lutec twins: Goku's arsenal has nothing to put down an omnipresent being which would force those matches and this one into a stalement. If Kid Buu would've challenged King Yemma then I would've dropped this argument a while back but there's still the issue of the soul absorption thing that Goku has to deal with.

 

[The_Everlasting]

You seem to think being hurt phyiscally means low durability, you have that completely backwards, it just means the enemy can unleash enough physical power to harm them with punches. Beerus destroyed half a planet with a casual tap, and Goku traded blows with him, Frieza kicked a planet buster into space and Gohan ripped apart the Cell Jr.s with one punch each.

Again, physical blows carry force equal to ki blasts.

He can't kill Schrodinger or the Lutec twins becuase of abilities in their arsenal (Schrodinger can't die as long as he's aware of his own existence and the Lutec twins are scattered across probability space). Again, stop acting as if omnipresence can relate to durability, it can't. While I do agree Goku doesn't have defense against soul absorption, I don't think Hao can use it fast enough to have it work.

 

[Davy0]

To respond to Muu0934:
Stop thinking they can't hit with the same amount of force, there's no proof they can't.

If you're referring to the "Earth explosion" thing, it either was because they couldn't breate in space or PIS. If you're referring to the laser, it was complete PIS.

You keep saying that Goku can't beat Hao because he's omnipresent, but I just debunked that. Vegeta was still terrified of Buuhan, implying Buuhan could hurt or kill him. And if we use anime feats (Which is really the only way I see us ending this faster), Kid Buu is explicitly show to be able to kill spirits.

Until someone blows up a planet with physical force I don't see why that point is incorrect. We've never seen this in either the manga or the movies. Beerus blowing up a planet was a ki strike which is something I wasn't referring to.
It wasn't the breathing in space thing, as this would actually make things easier for Hao considering his radiation pillars and black hole. Still referring to Golden Frieza being able to fight Goku.

Goku can't really kill him in the same way that he wouldn't be able to kill Schrodnger or the Lutec twins: Goku's arsenal has nothing to put down an omnipresent being which would force those matches and this one into a stalement. If Kid Buu would've challenged King Yemma then I would've dropped this argument a while back but there's still the issue of the soul absorption thing that Goku has to deal with.

Even though when fighting, characters always use ki to reinforce their striking power. It's always done, against enemies this is especially true. Piccolo comments on how its used!

Again, you need to find the statement that says that only Gods can kill Gods.

Your statements are so fallacious. What you're saying is that Bleach characters can't be killed because they are spirits... Guess Bleach is the strongest verse in the fiction, then.

 

[Muu0934]

All of this, and this guy still has no feats to show how much superior Hao is to anyone in DB, all the people he fought were inferior to himself, and showed no where near the level of power Goku had in any case. If there was some definitive proof, we wouldn't be speaking on this. But all you're saying is that he's got some type of non-existent power. The Black Hole should have been the end of the Five Warriors, a Super Nova should have obliterated them regardless, but it didn't. All I'm hearing is that you're going by what you think Hao is capable of. Not a "without a doubt" notion.
I despise using Anime feats, I'm not going to go back on that. That would mean saying that GT exists in canon, it doesn't.

The reason why Hao even allowed that fight to take place was given at the end of the manga so I'm not seeing you're complaint. Also Shaman King uses real world numbers and explanations behind Hao's cosmic phenomenon so there's really no reason to doubt that it was a real black hole as its creation would still make it a black hole regardless of its origin. Also, if you want to bring panel feats up again, neither Goku nor Beerus have destroyed a solar system and going off of character statements to justify their credibility, this would also mean Hao's universe level.

But I already stated earlier that Beerus and Whis would beat Hao so I'm not sure where the issue is.

 

[Davy0]

He can't kill Schrodinger or the Lutec twins becuase of abilities in their arsenal (Schrodinger can't die as long as he's aware of his own existence and the Lutec twins are scattered across probability space). Again, stop acting as if omnipresence can relate to durability, it can't. While I do agree Goku doesn't have defense against soul absorption, I don't think Hao can use it fast enough to have it work.

More like Goku is superior to anyone Hao has soul-absorbed.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Except Beerus and Goku have powerscaling, Hao doesn't, since his only opponents are weaker than him.

The issue is that this is Goku vs Hao, not Beerus or Whis vs Hao.

 

[Davy0]

The reason why Hao even allowed that fight to take place was given at the end of the manga so I'm not seeing you're complaint. Also Shaman King uses real world numbers and explanations behind Hao's cosmic phenomenon so there's really no reason to doubt that it was a real black hole as its creation would still make it a black hole regardless of its origin. Also, if you want to bring panel feats up again, neither Goku nor Beerus have destroyed a solar system and going off of character statements to justify their credibility, this would also mean Hao's universe level.

But I already stated earlier that Beerus and Whis would beat Hao so I'm not sure where the issue is.

Doesn't that mean you still have no feats to work with? You still have shown nothing to the superiority of DB characters. Your Black Hole isn't crap because it couldn't do what he basically said it could. If it was an actual Black Hole, the fight would have been over from the beginning.

The issue is that forget Beerus and Whis, the guy with the feats you have shown can't beat someone comparable to KRILLIN'S LEVEL!