Some Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice ability additions

[ShadowWhoWalks]

"If we are seeking to sever the immortal ties, I know a good place to start. Wolf, look at this. It's an ancient record that was kept in VS Battles."​

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I agree with the current Sekiro tiering, but there are some abilities that should be added based on the manga and the free update.

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Part 1:​

Wolf:
The update introduces lore about Sekiro's ability to change costumes and re-experience boss battles, which makes the abilities canon rather than just game mechanics.

So he gets:

• Transformation (Can change his appearance and outfit by concentrating on certain memories, though it doesn't affect his combat ability)
• Memory Manipulation (Can accurately simulate fighting against foes he defeated or a stronger version of them to improve his skills)
• Accelerated Development, for quickly learning skills including Ashina Style, Senpu martial art, and the Sakura Dance technique.

Sekiro acquires the ability to use the Sakura Dance technique after defeating Inner Genichiro (which was used by Lady Tomoe in reality, and is used by Inner Genichiro in memory), but not by Genichiro in reality nor witnessed by Wolf in reality. So this confirms that Sekiro uses reflection upon memories to improve his skills.

Part 1.5​

Next is more accurate description to the function and limitations of resurrection.

Turns out that "resurrective power" is a canon concept. Not only is it mentioned in the description of Sakura Droplet and Jizo Statues and Dragon's blood Droplets, but it is mentioned in dialogue. This conversation happens after accepting the upgrade to Resurrective Power:

Kuro: That's... When the Undying Pledge of the Dragon's Heritage is broken... It's said that this remains in place of the oath. Do you think this one was left behind by Lord Takeru? Wolf: ... That seems likely. Kuro: Wolf, if you so desire... I can use this sakura droplet to assist you. Wolf: If you should be so kind... Kuro: Of course. Close your eyes. Wolf: My Lord... Kuro: Lord Takeru's dragon blood... Lives on with you. Wolf: I humbly accept. Kuro: Yes. ......... You may open your eyes now. Wolf: My Lord... Kuro: That was a boon granted by Lord Takeru. Use it well. Wolf: Yes.

So Resurrective Power is something that is needed and gets used in lore.
It is already mentioned in the profile that Sekiro might lose consciousness if he dies too much (based on the cutscene of him waking up after dying and causing the first wave of Dragon Rot), but for accuracy the weakness should be:

Dying repeatedly exhausts Wolf's resurrective power which leads to temporary unconsciousness, if the process is repeated the resurrection eventually gets powered through absorbing the life force of others, which spreads a disease known as Dragonrot that causes coughing up blood and eventual death.​

Dragonrot has once caused an epidemic throughout Ashina, so it is highly unlikely that it just affects one or two persons at a time as implied by the profile.
I believe this phrasing reflects the lore and Dragonrot quest chain most accurately.

Emma: As I thought... the difference is slight... and I can only see it from up close... Wolf: What is it? Emma: Dragon's Blood stagnation. I believe you're showing its symptoms. Wolf: Stagnation? Emma: Dogen, my mentor, spoke of it once. The power of the Dragon's Heritage becomes tainted the more you use it. When the stagnation has built up too much, it overflows. Wolf: What happens when it overflows? Emma: Diseases spread, apparently. I hope this is just me being unnecessarily cautious... But if you should notice anything alarming-- Wolf: Yes, I'll come see you. Emma: My mentor Dogen spoke of it before. He said that repeated death causes the Dragon's Blood to stagnate. And stagnating past a certain point will cause the Dragon's Eye to overflow... You're showing symptoms of overflowing stagnation. That is my diagnosis. If you should notice anything alarming, come and see me. Wolf: There must be a way to treat the Dragonrot. Emma: The first step is to look through my mentor's research and see if I can discover a way... The Dragonrot and the overflow of stagnation... There must be some link between the two. For my research... I need you to find me blood samples from others who are afflicted. Wolf: I'll see what I can find. Emma: ... Thank you. Emma: I've been waiting for you. Wolf: Any progress? Emma: Yes, I've found some answers. The source of the Dragonrot is the stagnation in your blood. Wolf: What causes the stagnation? Emma: The blood has only a limited amount of power available to it. Let's say you've used all of this power... and then you attempt to resurrect again. The resurrection still occurs, but... It must draw on power from another source. Wolf: From those that have the Dragonrot? Emma: I believe so. Wolf: For those who have the Dragonrot... Emma: The natural life force that everyone has, that allows them to live their lives and function as human beings, has been taken from them. Their blood has stagnated. Emma: There was a Dragonrot epidemic in Ashina once before. Back then, a cure was not achieved... every single person who caught it, died.

The duration of unconsciousness is ambiguous, though I guess it can be assumed to be less than an hour during debates and thus not an incap.

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Part 2​

Guardian Ape:

The manga adds some lore to rejuvenating water and the parasites.

So the rejuvenating water gives red eyes + weakness to fire + enhanced strength + enhanced durability. And there is a small chance that it will transform the consumer into a monkey.
If insects drink the rejuvenating water they can act as parasites that not only grants Type 2 immortality, but also regeneration, and thus Type 3 immortality as well.

Gallery with relevant scans:


This would give the Guardian Ape Regeneration (Mid) and Immortality Type 3.

Also, a couple of weaknesses: Might lose immortality if the centipede is entirely pulled out of his body, and being incapacitated if damaged too much (after defeating Headless Ape for the second time, he was a sitting duck and will only disappear if he is executed with the Mortal Blade).

Also, would this make a better profile image for Headless Ape?

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Summons: @Aridwolverine @Sir_Ovens @Mr._Bambu @CCMac27 @MeleeniumRXJ @TitanCrusher101 @DarkGrath

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Bump

 

[SpookyShadow]

If you aren't staff pings don't work unfortunately

I agree, also Sakura Dance is kinda air-manipulation-ish with this extended range

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I agree to all of this.

 

[Aridwolverine]

I agree with all of this.

 

[Mister6ame6]

I agree with the OP

 

[Naito-desu]

What do the Resurrection changes mean for Wolf in battles? Is there a cap on how many times he can die and is the resulting unconsciousness a BFR?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Well he doesn't get BFR'd canonically. He just passes out after dying too often. However it wouldn't be incap because he can just wake up before 24 hours. It does open up the possibility of a loss though, since anyone can just toss him aside and BFR him or pin him down do he is actually incaped.

 

[Naito-desu]

Also I'm not familiar with Accelerate Development, does that also count as a skill feat on top of being an ability?

 

[Naito-desu]

Anyway, I do agree with the above

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Since this is a pretty straightforward revision and nobody seems to have any objections, this can be applied.

Edit: Although I think another mod's approval shouldn't hurt.

@Mr._Bambu @DarkGrath

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I think that your resurrective power bit is a wee bit weak but Ovens never came and got me earlier to discuss this in-depth, so I'd rather not try to overturn accepted folks for a point I don't feel strongly about.

Do we... do we even use the manga? Is it canon?

Also, no. Use the game Headless Ape art.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Unlike the horrendous Dark Souls comics, Sekiro's manga should be fine as secondary canon. Although, if there is an official statement confirming its canonicity, I think it should be posted here.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Unlike the horrendous Dark Souls comics, Sekiro's manga should be fine as secondary canon. Although, if there is an official statement confirming its canonicity, I think it should be posted here.

I would argue that given the history of Dark Souls secondary media there should absolutely be given proof that it's canon, since all past experience suggests these things aren't.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Was the validity of Bloodborne's comics considered? I think the time based type 8 on Hunter's profile was based off that.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Was the validity of Bloodborne's comics considered? I think the time based type 8 on Hunter's profile was based off that.

You may note that the time-based res isn't mentioned on the profile, since it was never conclusively proven to be canon.

 

[DarkGrath]

I agree with most of this, though I'm still to this day questioning about how exactly to treat the resurrection when Wolf dies and is revived at a Sculptor's Idol.

It's undeniably a canon concept; it's referenced frequently in both dialogue and lore. The problem arises when you consider how the world state itself seems to reverse whenever this occurs. For example, in the Shura ending, you can kill Emma and then die to Isshin, at which point Wolf is revived and then... has to fight Emma again? With none of the cutscenes recognising that this already occurred? And the same thing occurs in the rest of the endings as well, where you can kill Genichiro, then die to Isshin (again), and when Wolf is revived, Genichiro is still alive and all the cutscenes play again like nothing happened. This isn't even exclusive to the endings, either; in the Guardian Ape fight, if you beat the first phase and cut off his head but then die in the second phase, the Guardian Ape will have his head back again.

Consistently, throughout the whole game and all of it's different paths, dying and being forced to draw on the lifeforce of those around you seems to revert the world itself to a state a bit before Wolf's death. I'm not denying at all the canonicity of dragonrot, and how it is spread across the land after each death, but there needs to be an explanation for this which ensures that these facts are mutually inclusive.

also, how did I get a notification for this only a few minutes after listening to the Sekiro OST. You guys are wizards. BRB, listening to Divine Dragon on loop.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I guess some design liberties have go be taken into account when mixing gameplay and story/lore. As beastly as FromSoft has been this so far regarding lore, I don't believe they're infallible.

I think the statue rewind thing should be treated as game mechanics until canonically proven otherwise.

 

[DarkGrath]

It's frankly not a huge enough deal to make a large point about. It technically can just be written off as game mechanics if necessary. But if an explanation can combine the two concepts together in a way that means they'd both make sense in the lore, I think that would be preferable. Given that the lifeforce of the people in the world of Sekiro seems to be treated more metaphysically than anything else in the world, while dragonrot is a physical affliction, I don't think it'd be impossible to explain how time can be reversed and lifeforce can be sapped away simultaneously.

But, well, maybe a topic for another day. I might take a good long, detailed look through the lore of Sekiro myself when I have the time to see if anything of the sort is referenced or explained.

 

[DarkGrath]

Also, my apologies for going slightly off topic there. I felt that was a good question to ask while the topic of Wolf's immortality was being discussed, but I gave a very basic response to the actual suggestions in the thread themselves compared to my own. I'll quickly go through my specific opinions now.

Transformation is slightly weird, but should be entirely acceptable with the given justification.

Memory Manip and Accelerated Development should be perfectly fine.

The suggestions based on information from the manga might be questionable if the manga does not have confirmation of being canonical, though I honestly have no idea if it is or isn't. I don't believe the developers have made a specific statement about it at any point.

 

[SpookyShadow]

Wouldn't the technique learning be more like Power Mimicry? He also has learned Dragon Flash immediately after beating Isshin, same with One Mind on Shura route

 

[Naito-desu]

I think Accelerated Development is more proper, Sekiro also achieved techniques that weren't directly used by enemies, even a few combat arts that were not part of the skill tree. If anything Power Mimicry may only apply to One Mind and Dragon Flash..

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

The manga is supervised by FromSoftware, so it should be secondary canon at minimum. Since the mangaka was credited for art and composition but not writing, the overall story direction is likely provided by FromSoftware.

Accelerated Development refers to the rapid and fast increase in skills compared to the setting. Power Mimicry and Reactive Power Level can be considered a more specific type of Accelerated Development, but Wolf's talent and how he learns skills is vague enough that Accelerated Development should fit better.

While Kuro mentioned that Wolf must have died many times for him, some boss battles are likely ones Wolf canonicly never lost; the Black Mortal Blade in the final boss battle should be a weapon that would kill Wolf for good regardless for instance. I restricted the description to only include explicit information, so it is vague enough to not refer to speculative elements like time resets or teleportation as they might just be game mechanics.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Why would that render it canon? IIRC the others were similarly petitioned by FromSoft and yet contradicted vast amounts of lore and were thus unusable. I'd prefer a concrete statement in this case.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Involvement from original author/creator is usually enough to make adaptions and spin-offs be secondary canon.

The Dark Souls comics credited FromSoftware as developers of the original game, but don't mention any supervision. So I don't think this (even without the disclaimer):

Is analogous to the Sekiro manga.

 

[DarkGrath]

While canonicity is obviously something decided on a case-by-case basis,if it was supervised and written by the original developers themselves then I see the logic in considering it a secondary canon. This argument obviously falls flat if it contradicts the original canon, though.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Hanbei is an unexplored character and there is no contradiction with the brief cameos of established characters, so there shouldn't be issues with it being secondary canon as it is supervised.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Bump

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Bump

 

[Naito-desu]

So is this being added or do we need more agrees?

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

In theory it should be added; just waiting for confirmation that Manga feats are valid.
As I argued above, the situation is not analogous with the Dark Souls comics; Fromsoftware claims supervision over the manga (and the mangaka is not even given writing credits), unlike the Dark Souls comics which credits writing to parties unrelated to Fromsoftware and the comics explicitly confirm that they are non-canon later on. The brief cameos of Sekiro characters in the manga also don't contradict game lore.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Bump.
Are there enough agreements for manga feats?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Still against 'em.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

I assume you concede that the DS comics and Sekiro manga were "similarly petitioned" though, right?

Isn't an adaption being overseen/supervised by the creators enough for secondary canon status normally?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Similarly petitioned as in, FromSoft allowed/endorsed their creation, yes.

Not when they are shown to be entirely untrustworthy. I grant you that FromSoft seems to have taken a greater interest in controlling this, though I have no context to what extent nor what areas they were more concerned with. In my eyes, it could be considered a secondary verse (similar to Marvel Comics, MCU, Marvel Cartoons, etc) but I'm still against it being added to the primary verse.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

But not similarly petitioned when it comes to supervision.

The only reason provided for untrustworthiness is guilt by association to comics that don't have supervision, which makes them a weak analogy. Are there internal reasons for the Sekiro manga to be untrustworthy like how the DS comics are shown to have internal reasons to be untrustworthy.
The manga overall, which includes the story, is supervised. Which means that the story got approved by Fromsoftware at least in the storyboard stage if not earlier, and the plot does not conflict with the game.

Secondary verses means different versions of characters. Do we have reasons to believe that the backstory of Hanbei in the game is different from the more detailed Hanbei backstory Fromsoftware supervised and approved?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I don't really see it as weak. We have past evidence of thing occurring, in my mind it makes sense to extrapolate that to say thing likely occurs again. I don't read manga and shan't be going through the Sekiro one as an exception, but as a rule I'm against the manga's inclusion, final answer.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Bump.

Isn't case-by-case analysis more accurate than sweeping generalization? DS comics doesn't even fulfill the conditions for tertiary canon, while the Sekiro manga fulfills the conditions for secondary canon.

Only the manga canonity (and parasite regen upgrade) is controversial; would appreciate more input.

Canon

Canon is a term used to designate works that are generally accepted as the genuine work that apply to the fictional verse. With few possible exceptions only canon material is featured in the character pages, with non-canon material to be ignored. The generally agreed-upon definition is that the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Bump.

Isn't case-by-case analysis more accurate than sweeping generalization? DS comics doesn't even fulfill the conditions for tertiary canon, while the Sekiro manga fulfills the conditions for secondary canon.

Only the manga canonity (and parasite regen upgrade) is controversial; would appreciate more input.

Canon

Canon is a term used to designate works that are generally accepted as the genuine work that apply to the fictional verse. With few possible exceptions only canon material is featured in the character pages, with non-canon material to be ignored. The generally agreed-upon definition is that the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Case-by-case is indeed what we do here. This doesn't mean ignoring context of the creators and how they've handled things in the past.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

But we know they did things differently in the past (not getting involved in making the comics), so how are the different circumstances and handling regarding an other franchise useful for generalization in this case?
Does the manga fail to fulfil the conditiosn stated in the wiki for secondary canon, and if so then what condition(s) did it fail in?