ShinyMagicalGirl
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I doubt that scales though, right? If it does, then it would bump P2 to 2-A...
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Some Persona 2 and/or 5 revisions
- Thread starter ThePerpetual
- Start date
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- Tags
- shin megami tensei
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I am going to bump this, seems important.
Have we decided on P5 scaling via Yaldoboath yet? I agree with ThePerpetual on this point.
Dont know enough about 1 and 2 to comment tbh, but i think their current rankings are better imo.
Have we decided on P5 scaling via Yaldoboath yet? I agree with ThePerpetual on this point.
Dont know enough about 1 and 2 to comment tbh, but i think their current rankings are better imo.
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- Thread starter
- #43
I'm kind of a busy guy, and I just burnt my finger like fifteen minutes ago
Typing is kina slow
Also I'm on break
Please be patient
Typing is kina slow
Also I'm on break
Please be patient
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Well, I've replied... waiting on a response from @Matthew, or else to call a stop to it and tally up votes.
In the meantime, just to get a read on everyone in the room so to speak, what are we thinking of ruling this as, at the moment?
@ShinyMagicalGirl
"However, Philemon controls the CU, which can create universes with a thought, and the P2 cast are at least 4, so 4 universes. By that alone, Philemon is superior..."
I think you mentioned Persona 2 being potentially 2-C, as well? Or maybe I misunderstand this point. I'm open to the opportunity, personally, at least, and since it seems people are leaning towards Phile > Yalda for now it'd make that consistent feat-wise.
In the meantime, just to get a read on everyone in the room so to speak, what are we thinking of ruling this as, at the moment?
@ShinyMagicalGirl
"However, Philemon controls the CU, which can create universes with a thought, and the P2 cast are at least 4, so 4 universes. By that alone, Philemon is superior..."
I think you mentioned Persona 2 being potentially 2-C, as well? Or maybe I misunderstand this point. I'm open to the opportunity, personally, at least, and since it seems people are leaning towards Phile > Yalda for now it'd make that consistent feat-wise.
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Yaldaboth has no Low 2-C feat, sorry.
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Anything on 3 and 4? The 7A profiles are weird
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- #47
@Matthew You keep stating that, as though it were objective fact. It's one thing to be entitled to one's opinion, but until you can definitely disprove the very basis upon which the assertion itself exists, an opinion is all it remains. The fact that people do not recognize it as such is evidence that this isn't a fact by any stretch of the imagination...
Do you even have a refutation to my assertions, beyond saying "I'm right and you're wrong"? Or are we to take this as calling a stop of the debate, and letting people judge for themselves based on the points presented?
I tried asking you for advice on the everything else suggested in the thread, as people suggested I do, but you've not even really discussed it at all... do you have no say on the matter?
@Gargoyle They're scaled from Erebus, if you're referring to P3's cast. P4's cast are scaled from Persona 4 Arena, which we've accepted this entire time despite it supposedly not being a part of the main canon.
Do you even have a refutation to my assertions, beyond saying "I'm right and you're wrong"? Or are we to take this as calling a stop of the debate, and letting people judge for themselves based on the points presented?
I tried asking you for advice on the everything else suggested in the thread, as people suggested I do, but you've not even really discussed it at all... do you have no say on the matter?
@Gargoyle They're scaled from Erebus, if you're referring to P3's cast. P4's cast are scaled from Persona 4 Arena, which we've accepted this entire time despite it supposedly not being a part of the main canon.
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Chill out, my dude. No need to become so emotional about this.
And don't strawman me, I answered all your points repeatedly, pointed out fallacies, false interpretations, everything. The only one that seems incapable of accepting the diverging opinions.
You really haven't proved that Yaldaboth is Low 2-C. The feat is vague and over time. It isn't even confirmed Universal in scale.
And don't strawman me, I answered all your points repeatedly, pointed out fallacies, false interpretations, everything. The only one that seems incapable of accepting the diverging opinions.
You really haven't proved that Yaldaboth is Low 2-C. The feat is vague and over time. It isn't even confirmed Universal in scale.
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What's the Erebus feat tho? There's no justification for it or calc
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Like I said, profiles suck.
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- #51
- "Yaldaboth has no Low 2-C feat, sorry."
How is this anything more than just stating that you're right, without any further context in the comment?
You haven't answered all of my points, I've had a comment waiting on the blog for nearly a week. You can't just respond, say that you've disproven everything, then call it a day without acknowledging further discussion.
You claim I'm straw-manning you, yet you're the one trying to paint me as "emotional" in the context of maintaining a cool head in a Versus Debate... if reading into your comments is straw-manning you, your reading into mine amounts to Ad Hominem, insinuating I can't be trusted because I'm "emotional."
If I'm "emotional", it's because you've consistently been dismissive of any points I've tried to make, as if I wasn't to be taken seriously, and/or argue against points I'm not even trying to make to begin with. It does, in fact, get fairly frustrating, yes.
- "You really haven't proved that Yaldaboth is Low 2-C. The feat is vague and over time. It isn't even confirmed Universal in scale."
This is precisely what I'm contesting, though. This is the same thing as saying that "Yaldabaoth has no Low 2-C feat," i.e. "You're wrong."
All of these statements are according to you, as though you were the final say in the matter. I disagree with plenty of stats on this site, but they're not all rolled back because I alone have reason to disagree...
Saying that a feat is over some period of time is inapplicable in cases of 4-D feats, as such feats involve the creation/destruction/manipulation/etc. of entire timelines or the equivalent by definition. That's why Bhunivelze, for example, isn't 3-C anymore.
@Gargoyle No idea. Maybe ask somebody who's more familiar with the verse.
How is this anything more than just stating that you're right, without any further context in the comment?
You haven't answered all of my points, I've had a comment waiting on the blog for nearly a week. You can't just respond, say that you've disproven everything, then call it a day without acknowledging further discussion.
You claim I'm straw-manning you, yet you're the one trying to paint me as "emotional" in the context of maintaining a cool head in a Versus Debate... if reading into your comments is straw-manning you, your reading into mine amounts to Ad Hominem, insinuating I can't be trusted because I'm "emotional."
If I'm "emotional", it's because you've consistently been dismissive of any points I've tried to make, as if I wasn't to be taken seriously, and/or argue against points I'm not even trying to make to begin with. It does, in fact, get fairly frustrating, yes.
- "You really haven't proved that Yaldaboth is Low 2-C. The feat is vague and over time. It isn't even confirmed Universal in scale."
This is precisely what I'm contesting, though. This is the same thing as saying that "Yaldabaoth has no Low 2-C feat," i.e. "You're wrong."
All of these statements are according to you, as though you were the final say in the matter. I disagree with plenty of stats on this site, but they're not all rolled back because I alone have reason to disagree...
Saying that a feat is over some period of time is inapplicable in cases of 4-D feats, as such feats involve the creation/destruction/manipulation/etc. of entire timelines or the equivalent by definition. That's why Bhunivelze, for example, isn't 3-C anymore.
@Gargoyle No idea. Maybe ask somebody who's more familiar with the verse.
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I'm not dismissive, I just don't see the point in arguing with posts the size of yours, when they are 80% filler. Which frankly just makes it look like you are trying to win through the size of your post.
If you brought better arguments to the table. You use tons of false equivalences and strawman my points. So far you haven't proven any Low 2-C feat.
Like, seriosuly, you bring up comparisons to Funimation and FFXIII without understanding the main argument or purpose. You have yet to prove that the Low 2-C feat is without a doubt Low 2-C, combat-applicable, and / or instantaneous. Because it's neither.
You have to resort to headcanons involving characters not in the game, and non-canon filler games to support your argument, and you completely twist my arguments in your latest post.
If you brought better arguments to the table. You use tons of false equivalences and strawman my points. So far you haven't proven any Low 2-C feat.
Like, seriosuly, you bring up comparisons to Funimation and FFXIII without understanding the main argument or purpose. You have yet to prove that the Low 2-C feat is without a doubt Low 2-C, combat-applicable, and / or instantaneous. Because it's neither.
You have to resort to headcanons involving characters not in the game, and non-canon filler games to support your argument, and you completely twist my arguments in your latest post.
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- #53
- "I'm not dismissive, I just don't see the point in arguing with posts the size of yours, when they are 80% filler. Which frankly just makes it look like you are trying to win through the size of your post."
And there you go again. You don't even bother pretending you want to debate anymore, because near anything I have to say is filler. Insinuating I'm debating dishonestly is Ad Hominem.
And, at any rate, I've been actively working to cut down the size of said posts/number them, to make it easier to follow specifically for you. You act like I'm actively trying to confuse you with long posts. Do you think I enjoy spending my spare time on this, somehow? It's exhausting.
- "If you brought better arguments to the table. You use tons of false equivalences and strawman my points."
How so? Prove that.
You don't get to decide how "good" my argument is for anyone else in this thread. Just for you.
- "Like, seriosuly, you bring up comparisons to Funimation and FFXIII without understanding the main argument or purpose. You have yet to prove that the Low 2-C feat is without a doubt Low 2-C, combat-applicable, and / or instantaneous. Because it's neither."
And you know the main argument or purpose, here? I know perfectly well what I'm saying, thank you very much, Matthew.
"Without a doubt" is nigh-impossible in fiction, but whatever. You're still only speaking from your own arbitrary perspective, in absolutes. What qualifies as sufficient evidence varies from person to person in a given scenario- this is why we have threads where everyone can participate to begin with.
- "You have to resort to headcanons involving characters not in the game, and non-canon filler games to support your argument, and you completely twist my arguments in your latest post."
Circular reasoning, yet again. You start from the conclusion that said games are non-canon or filler, rather than addressed the multiple, continuing arguments as to why this isn't the case to begin with. I am attacking the premises upon which you base your reasoning- you cannot maintain said reasoning without defending it and claim you've won "without a doubt", anyways.
Riddle me this, Matthew. If you can't be bothered to take me seriously, why do I owe you the same? If I'm not worth your time, why are you worth mine?
If you feel like you don't want to bother contesting those points, then sure, feel free. Everyone else who cares, however, still gets a say in the matter.
And there you go again. You don't even bother pretending you want to debate anymore, because near anything I have to say is filler. Insinuating I'm debating dishonestly is Ad Hominem.
And, at any rate, I've been actively working to cut down the size of said posts/number them, to make it easier to follow specifically for you. You act like I'm actively trying to confuse you with long posts. Do you think I enjoy spending my spare time on this, somehow? It's exhausting.
- "If you brought better arguments to the table. You use tons of false equivalences and strawman my points."
How so? Prove that.
You don't get to decide how "good" my argument is for anyone else in this thread. Just for you.
- "Like, seriosuly, you bring up comparisons to Funimation and FFXIII without understanding the main argument or purpose. You have yet to prove that the Low 2-C feat is without a doubt Low 2-C, combat-applicable, and / or instantaneous. Because it's neither."
And you know the main argument or purpose, here? I know perfectly well what I'm saying, thank you very much, Matthew.
"Without a doubt" is nigh-impossible in fiction, but whatever. You're still only speaking from your own arbitrary perspective, in absolutes. What qualifies as sufficient evidence varies from person to person in a given scenario- this is why we have threads where everyone can participate to begin with.
- "You have to resort to headcanons involving characters not in the game, and non-canon filler games to support your argument, and you completely twist my arguments in your latest post."
Circular reasoning, yet again. You start from the conclusion that said games are non-canon or filler, rather than addressed the multiple, continuing arguments as to why this isn't the case to begin with. I am attacking the premises upon which you base your reasoning- you cannot maintain said reasoning without defending it and claim you've won "without a doubt", anyways.
Riddle me this, Matthew. If you can't be bothered to take me seriously, why do I owe you the same? If I'm not worth your time, why are you worth mine?
If you feel like you don't want to bother contesting those points, then sure, feel free. Everyone else who cares, however, still gets a say in the matter.
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Woah, chill man. Are you really that angry and petty over a freaking JRPG rating that you need to descend to basically telling I'm not worth debating and should have no say?
You do realize I answered you many times over on the blog already, right? Please don't act like I haven't ever proven a thing. I proved all my points in my first post, which you still haven't succesfully debunked.
"And you know the main argument or purpose, here? I know perfectly well what I'm saying, thank you very much, Matthew."
No, but you don't know what I'm saying, seeing as you keep responding to stuff that aren't my main argument.
""Without a doubt" is nigh-impossible in fiction, but whatever. You're still only speaking from your own arbitrary perspective, in absolutes. What qualifies as sufficient evidence varies from person to person in a given scenario- this is why we have threads where everyone can participate to begin with."
It is perfectly doable for 99% of fiction. Just have an actual feat. I can't deny that Goku and Beerus were going to destroy the universe because it is obvious and clear.
Also, the second half of this paragraph is literally just a cop-out to not have to address my argument. Literally "That's just your opinion man!"
A fallacy which you have done multiple times now.
". You start from the conclusion that said games are non-canon or filler, rather than addressed the multiple, continuing arguments as to why this isn't the case to begin with"
I addressed why they're non-canon several times already. The statement comes from a non-canon source that has 0 say on the source material. Toss it off the roof. And it is literally from a reddit post. That's frankly grasping at straws.
"Riddle me this, Matthew. If you can't be bothered to take me seriously, why do I owe you the same? If I'm not worth your time, why are you worth mine?"
Because I bothered to answer your blog in all its wrongness and all but one of your posts there. At this point you are just being juvenile in not accepting that I disagree.
You do realize I answered you many times over on the blog already, right? Please don't act like I haven't ever proven a thing. I proved all my points in my first post, which you still haven't succesfully debunked.
"And you know the main argument or purpose, here? I know perfectly well what I'm saying, thank you very much, Matthew."
No, but you don't know what I'm saying, seeing as you keep responding to stuff that aren't my main argument.
""Without a doubt" is nigh-impossible in fiction, but whatever. You're still only speaking from your own arbitrary perspective, in absolutes. What qualifies as sufficient evidence varies from person to person in a given scenario- this is why we have threads where everyone can participate to begin with."
It is perfectly doable for 99% of fiction. Just have an actual feat. I can't deny that Goku and Beerus were going to destroy the universe because it is obvious and clear.
Also, the second half of this paragraph is literally just a cop-out to not have to address my argument. Literally "That's just your opinion man!"
A fallacy which you have done multiple times now.
". You start from the conclusion that said games are non-canon or filler, rather than addressed the multiple, continuing arguments as to why this isn't the case to begin with"
I addressed why they're non-canon several times already. The statement comes from a non-canon source that has 0 say on the source material. Toss it off the roof. And it is literally from a reddit post. That's frankly grasping at straws.
"Riddle me this, Matthew. If you can't be bothered to take me seriously, why do I owe you the same? If I'm not worth your time, why are you worth mine?"
Because I bothered to answer your blog in all its wrongness and all but one of your posts there. At this point you are just being juvenile in not accepting that I disagree.
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How am I the petty one? I'm not telling you you're not worth debating, I'm asking why the hell you'd say and insinuate that about me, by saying "I've already answered you, and proven everything, and you haven't debunked me."
You... haven't. Have you even bothered checking it? This is exactly what I mean by the above there. Don't you see that I'm trying to advance the debate? You act like I keep saying the same thing over and over again. It's frankly pretty damn insulting, Matthew.
And I addressed why I don't see the points you made as making it non-canon. Said points were either never addressed to begin with, or are new to the most recent post, and largely had nothing to do with either statement.
You... haven't. Have you even bothered checking it? This is exactly what I mean by the above there. Don't you see that I'm trying to advance the debate? You act like I keep saying the same thing over and over again. It's frankly pretty damn insulting, Matthew.
And I addressed why I don't see the points you made as making it non-canon. Said points were either never addressed to begin with, or are new to the most recent post, and largely had nothing to do with either statement.
ShinyMagicalGirl
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@ThePerpetual
Yep, I think P2 are possibly 2-C as well. Philemon and Yaldy having 2-C stuff would be very consistent, me thinks. And my god, Tatsuya has lots of hax too, like Akira/Ren. His profile here is VERY barebones.
I watched the P2 Innocent Sin ending again, and saw something intriguing. Philemon stated that from the start, human souls are capable of altering reality itself, in a similar way Tatsuya rewrote the universe. Philemon also stated that all human souls, from the beginning of time to now, return and belong to the Sea of Souls, which is within the Collective Unconsciousness. And if each soul is capable of rewriting reality, and there are an estimated 107 billion people who have ever lived on Earth, then wouldn't Philemon be 2-B at least? Like, 1 soul = 1 reality? So 107 billion souls = 107 billion possibilities and realities?
Of course, this is just conjecture, so I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong, as always. Take this however you want, I'm not trying to enforce that P2 is 2-B. You guys are the experts here, not me.
Yep, I think P2 are possibly 2-C as well. Philemon and Yaldy having 2-C stuff would be very consistent, me thinks. And my god, Tatsuya has lots of hax too, like Akira/Ren. His profile here is VERY barebones.
I watched the P2 Innocent Sin ending again, and saw something intriguing. Philemon stated that from the start, human souls are capable of altering reality itself, in a similar way Tatsuya rewrote the universe. Philemon also stated that all human souls, from the beginning of time to now, return and belong to the Sea of Souls, which is within the Collective Unconsciousness. And if each soul is capable of rewriting reality, and there are an estimated 107 billion people who have ever lived on Earth, then wouldn't Philemon be 2-B at least? Like, 1 soul = 1 reality? So 107 billion souls = 107 billion possibilities and realities?
Of course, this is just conjecture, so I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong, as always. Take this however you want, I'm not trying to enforce that P2 is 2-B. You guys are the experts here, not me.
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I will write a response to Perpetual's last blog post since that is being demanded so.
@Shiny
I'm sorry, but that is speculatory. That is no different from attributing Multiversal powers to normal humans in series like SMT and DC.
@Shiny
I'm sorry, but that is speculatory. That is no different from attributing Multiversal powers to normal humans in series like SMT and DC.
ShinyMagicalGirl
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Okay then. So Persona 2 is staying Universal then?
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I can see 2-C, honestly. Ever, Ultima and I are going through SMT games.
ShinyMagicalGirl
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Nice! Persona 2 upgrades are a-okay in my book! Persona 2 is honestly my fave story-wise in the whole Persona series. Can't wait to see these upgrades.
I also think Tatsuya should get some hax upgrades, like him resisting existence erasure by the end of P2IS, and getting some resistance to Memory erasure and possibly destiny manip as well. Oh, and like Ren Amamiya, some other hax abilities like instant death and stuff. He at least has time stop in the profile, so that's cool.
What I'm worried about is Speed. I dunno if Persona 2 has any speed feats; unless Immeasurable/Infinite speed exists (Which I doubt)
I also think Tatsuya should get some hax upgrades, like him resisting existence erasure by the end of P2IS, and getting some resistance to Memory erasure and possibly destiny manip as well. Oh, and like Ren Amamiya, some other hax abilities like instant death and stuff. He at least has time stop in the profile, so that's cool.
What I'm worried about is Speed. I dunno if Persona 2 has any speed feats; unless Immeasurable/Infinite speed exists (Which I doubt)
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Just pointing this out as a neutral part, but I believe both sides can benefit from staying more calm and/or polite on the P5 subject.
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I agree. Less appeal to emotion would be good, too.
ShinyMagicalGirl
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RIP this thread Unless we're all still busy?
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Not at all. I'm just waiting on Matt's last response to the blog.
...and to explain how, exactly, I'm supposedly appealing to emotion, rather than simply accusing me of things. Thus far, whenever I've had a grievance with the form of one of his arguments, I've cited what specifically I've had an issue with...
...and to explain how, exactly, I'm supposedly appealing to emotion, rather than simply accusing me of things. Thus far, whenever I've had a grievance with the form of one of his arguments, I've cited what specifically I've had an issue with...
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You appeal to emotion in the needlessly emotional voice undertoning some of your posts. They'd be stronger without it.
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Late bump, but lets get this over with since green name and yellow name cant agree if their lives depended on it in a brazillian rain forest
I totally agree on 4-A P5 at least.
I also think a good compromise would be to either have 'possibly Low 2-C/2-C'.
I really just want to get a Ren matchup in against our lord and savior of 4-A.
I totally agree on 4-A P5 at least.
I also think a good compromise would be to either have 'possibly Low 2-C/2-C'.
I really just want to get a Ren matchup in against our lord and savior of 4-A.
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I would be fine with "possibly/likely" or some such compromise, I guess, since even what I still can't see as anything but strong evidence still isn't 100% proof.
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P5 (which I came here for)ThePerpetual said:
Downgraded to "At least 4-A, likely 2-C" for end game cast imo.
I will take a possibly or which ever seems more likely between Low 2-C or 2-C.
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Not to get ahead of or derail this thread, but i have to ask: if the changes are to be applied, can i do that? I've been planning to revise some things about the existing profiles (namely the powers/abilities portion, notable equipment part as well as listing the Skills the Thieves can use like i did with this page) so i thought i may as well wait for this thread to conclude as to change their AP while at it.
Oh and um, i'm gonna have to check but if i'm not mistaken, only Joker with Satanael scales to Yaldabaoth in AP; as for durability, i'm not sure.
Oh and um, i'm gonna have to check but if i'm not mistaken, only Joker with Satanael scales to Yaldabaoth in AP; as for durability, i'm not sure.
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Joker with satanael is end game joker and As for durability? Considering joker tanked a full power attack and defended the other phantom theives while at it I'd say he does Granted i dont know if you can change anything just pointing things outb
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Yeah, i suppose you're right.
But what i meant was durability for the other Thieves; since they can clearly take hits from Yaldabaoth, but the latter could be holding back due to it's huge ego and sadistic nature. Hence why i'm not sure if they scale to Yaldabaoth in durability.
But what i meant was durability for the other Thieves; since they can clearly take hits from Yaldabaoth, but the latter could be holding back due to it's huge ego and sadistic nature. Hence why i'm not sure if they scale to Yaldabaoth in durability.
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No to 2-C. I already explained ad-nauseum how there is no such feat in the game, and how the logic itself is based on incorrect assumptions
ShinyMagicalGirl
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Still wishing for Low Multiversal Tatsuya Suou
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What about 'Likely Low 2-C'?Matthew Schroeder said:
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Question Was anything decided for speed for the P2 cast?
I mean i could have missed something but i dont think that was discussed (granted you could argue they stay MFTL+ Because philimon > yaldaboth whos mftl+)
I mean i could have missed something but i dont think that was discussed (granted you could argue they stay MFTL+ Because philimon > yaldaboth whos mftl+)
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I mean, if that's what we're going with, that makes sense enough to me.
It's self-evident at this point that Matt's against any kind of upgrade, I'm fine with either and actively argued for them. Really, I think we're just waiting for you all to toss your two cents in...
It's self-evident at this point that Matt's against any kind of upgrade, I'm fine with either and actively argued for them. Really, I think we're just waiting for you all to toss your two cents in...
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I would rather you not simply go "Matt's against any upgrade". I'm against any upgrade that is not based on evidence, as you can see from my first post on your blog, in which I analyze and respond to every part of it.
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So what has been concluded here?
From what I got
P5: Downgraded to 4-A
Wasn't keeping up with P1 and P2 revisions.
Still being debated
________________
Low 2-C/2-C (Unless Perp and Matt concede somewhere)
From what I got
P5: Downgraded to 4-A
Wasn't keeping up with P1 and P2 revisions.
Still being debated
________________
Low 2-C/2-C (Unless Perp and Matt concede somewhere)
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