- 1,167
- 57
And yes, Tellius gets downgraded to Hypersonic if not Sub-Sonoc until its Bolting is calced, or you have to have ALL MAGIC be the same on ALL TIMELINES.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Some major Fire Emblem revisions
- Thread starter fandom_12cheeper
- Start date
- Status
- 7,868
- 2,803
Dodging lightning is still MHS
- 1,167
- 57
He said Tellius gets ALTEAN TIMELINE BOLTING's speed because its "supposed to be the same on ALL fire emblem games"
I am totally fine with Tellius being Massively Hypersonic, but for absurd allegations like that.
Saying all Boltings are the same is the same as saying all Bolgannones are the same, thus Heroes should be upgraded to 8-A.
According to Medeus's logic of course.
Have Ike downgraded to Hypersonic or Subsonic until Tellius's Bolting is calced.
I am totally fine with Tellius being Massively Hypersonic, but for absurd allegations like that.
Saying all Boltings are the same is the same as saying all Bolgannones are the same, thus Heroes should be upgraded to 8-A.
According to Medeus's logic of course.
Have Ike downgraded to Hypersonic or Subsonic until Tellius's Bolting is calced.
- 31,466
- 34,329
Heroes is non-canon though and thus different; although, I don't mind 8-A Heroes. But JSW would be a better person to ask.
- 1,167
- 57
I have a problem with YOUR reasoning, tho.
You are the one saying all Boltings are the same on all Timelines.
Which is wrong.
Ike has nothing to do in the Massively Hypersonic Range until his bolting gets calced.
If you say all spells are the same in all of the games, then bolgannone should be 8-A on all games as well, including Heroes and Awakening DLC.
Also, why do you say Heroes is not canon?
I can easly say 6,7,8,9,10 are not canon because they have nothing to do with Marth.
You are the one saying all Boltings are the same on all Timelines.
Which is wrong.
Ike has nothing to do in the Massively Hypersonic Range until his bolting gets calced.
If you say all spells are the same in all of the games, then bolgannone should be 8-A on all games as well, including Heroes and Awakening DLC.
Also, why do you say Heroes is not canon?
I can easly say 6,7,8,9,10 are not canon because they have nothing to do with Marth.
- 31,466
- 34,329
DLC is also non-canon to the GBA timelines; Awakening is still 8-A because it's the same universe as FE4. Characters in Ike's timeline can still backflip to dodge real lightning; meaning he still dodges it at pretty close range. Also, Rexbolt shows the characters perceiving the movement of lightning in slow motion; which implies some effect of MHS reactions at bare minimum. Also, If a Falcon Knight can dodge lightning at close range, than MHS is actually a lowball.
Also, please stop spamming the thread with the same comments over and over again. And yes, FE 6-10 are their own three separate canon's but they're still mainstream Fire Emblem games, they still dodge lightning legit, FE 9 and 10 still tank Meteor; which is calc'd at Low 7-C; but still feel 8-A bolganone is more reasonable. Heroes does not have bolting or meteor.
Also, please stop spamming the thread with the same comments over and over again. And yes, FE 6-10 are their own three separate canon's but they're still mainstream Fire Emblem games, they still dodge lightning legit, FE 9 and 10 still tank Meteor; which is calc'd at Low 7-C; but still feel 8-A bolganone is more reasonable. Heroes does not have bolting or meteor.
- 1,167
- 57
GBA's bolting feat is sightly faster than SNS's Bolting Feat.
If you are assuming these feats are the same then, TWO aproved Calcs are dismissed just because you say they are the same while they are clearly not.
And why in god's name Heroes does not scale to having a magic tome called "Bolgannone"?
After all, accoring to you and Medeus, any type of magic is the same on all timelines.
Are you changing your arguments now?
If you are assuming these feats are the same then, TWO aproved Calcs are dismissed just because you say they are the same while they are clearly not.
And why in god's name Heroes does not scale to having a magic tome called "Bolgannone"?
After all, accoring to you and Medeus, any type of magic is the same on all timelines.
Are you changing your arguments now?
- 31,466
- 34,329
The difference between bolting and bolganone is that bolting is still real lightning; lightning bolts are MHS+ and require MHS speed at bare minimum in order to dodge them at close range like literally every FE character except for Heroes ones do. Bolganone, while a volcanic eruption in both Marth and Ike's timelines; is nothing like that in Heroes iirc. Then again, I'm not too familiar with the spinoffs, but JSW and Dark are both very knowledgeable on Heroes; so I trust their judgement.
- 1,167
- 57
Oh, give me a break. At the very least, have THIS as the justification behind Ike's speed. https://youtu.be/IBAaP-XwroM (bolting on PoR)
And when did i say Awakeninh should be downgraded? Of course i know FE4 takes place in the same timeline as Awakening. Im saying Ike's justification for Ike's speed is wrong because its a calc for another timeline.
Do another calc or at least change it to "dodged a thing from the clouds".
And when did i say Awakeninh should be downgraded? Of course i know FE4 takes place in the same timeline as Awakening. Im saying Ike's justification for Ike's speed is wrong because its a calc for another timeline.
Do another calc or at least change it to "dodged a thing from the clouds".
- 1,167
- 57
Its an expression. And even worse, a question, not a confirmation nor allegation.
Seriously, you guys get angry over any word.
There. Edited out the "offense".
I apologize for calling you such word, Medeus.
Seriously, you guys get angry over any word.
There. Edited out the "offense".
I apologize for calling you such word, Medeus.
- 31,466
- 34,329
I'm alright, and I wasn't angry at all, just mildly exhausted. If we calc a Tellius character's at MHS, then we could link that as the justification. But MHS speed will remain either way.
- 1,167
- 57
Indeed.
Alright.
I agree with that.
Keep Massively Hypersonic there, but the justification should be a calc of Tellius's Bolting.
Hell, it might be faster than Massively Hypersonic or even slower.
Who know.
But yeah, i agree.
Alright.
I agree with that.
Keep Massively Hypersonic there, but the justification should be a calc of Tellius's Bolting.
Hell, it might be faster than Massively Hypersonic or even slower.
Who know.
But yeah, i agree.
- 31,466
- 34,329
Though, no one responded on this thread to something that seemed generally agreed on another thread. Should the reverted/human forms of the Manekates be upgraded to 8-A and Massively Hypersonic speed due to the face that they can dodge bolting, tank bolganone, and should at bare minimum be comparable to children? Alm as a child was able to land a punch that hurt Slayde; a highly trained Duma general, and the other trainees are comparable; and were capable of trading blows with the soldiers.
- 1,167
- 57
Yup
- 7
- 0
I'm not too interested in the power debate, but I can explain these parts that were removed or altered.
Devastated countries in battles against humanity, was able to singlehandedly turn the war in favor of Dolhr) | Country Class
The recollection by Jagen of Anri's history in chapter 11 of Mystery and its remake says Dolhr was being beaten back by Cartas and the liberation army centered in Altea, but Medeus's arrival singlehandedly turned the batlte in favor of Dolhr until Anri arrived with the Falchion.
able to halve the damage from most attacks, resistant to magic attacks)
The Earth Dragon ability to halve damage is present in FE3, as is the Shadow Dragon ability to nullify magic damage. The Earth Dragon's ability to halve damage is referrenced in many other times, both the tome and sword of the Earth Dragon Loptyr halve damage. I'd argue it is their iconic skill.
Devastated countries in battles against humanity, was able to singlehandedly turn the war in favor of Dolhr) | Country Class
The recollection by Jagen of Anri's history in chapter 11 of Mystery and its remake says Dolhr was being beaten back by Cartas and the liberation army centered in Altea, but Medeus's arrival singlehandedly turned the batlte in favor of Dolhr until Anri arrived with the Falchion.
able to halve the damage from most attacks, resistant to magic attacks)
The Earth Dragon ability to halve damage is present in FE3, as is the Shadow Dragon ability to nullify magic damage. The Earth Dragon's ability to halve damage is referrenced in many other times, both the tome and sword of the Earth Dragon Loptyr halve damage. I'd argue it is their iconic skill.
- 225
- 13
- Thread starter
- #59
Great,he can solo armies.I'm not disputing that.Too bad you don't have to be particularly powerful to do that.You know what else can devastate countries over time in a war?Actual IRL armies.Emperor Hardin said:
- 11,444
- 1,998
The above seems alright. Good information gathering.
As for the whole Bolting Speed issue, I'm not sure how to handle this. If someone can do a good calc of Tellius' Bolting speed then by all means, but I don't think it will change results that much.
Dragonskin does seem to be a recurring ability.
As for the whole Bolting Speed issue, I'm not sure how to handle this. If someone can do a good calc of Tellius' Bolting speed then by all means, but I don't think it will change results that much.
Dragonskin does seem to be a recurring ability.
- 1,167
- 57
Indeed.
So if every issue has been solved, maybe you guys could help me solve some issues with Elibe tiering.
So if every issue has been solved, maybe you guys could help me solve some issues with Elibe tiering.
- 7
- 0
I'm not too interested in tiers or whatever, but Medeus did singlehandedly turn the tide of battle, so it deserves a mention.12cheeper said:
Related subject, Medeus is more powerful then the sealed Earth Dragons based on info. Not only was he singlehandedly chosen to guard the Altar by Naga, but it is implied he has a certain measure of control over them as Gotoh describes them as his servants.
According to Gotoh, the sealed Earth Dragons would turn the human civilization to ashes which indicates Medeus could do the same, especially as in his true form as a Shadow Dragon.
In gameplay, the Shadow Dragon also doesn't take effective damage from the power of Divine Dragons, though in the original, its halving power is nullified, making it and Divine Dragons fight on equal ground. Though the Shadow Dragon has higher raw stat.s
Again, while I'm not interested in tiers, I do agree that Tiki should be on the level of Medeus and Naga.
My personal impression of dragons is that is a small gap between Earth Dragons compared to Divine Dragons, Xane describes them as nearly as powerful, but a Shadow Dragon and Divine Dragon are equal as Loptyr in FE4 is described as Naga's equal, while Shadow Dragon Medeus is much more powerful then the other Earth Dragons.
- 31,466
- 34,329
Oh yeah, I noticed Tiki's profile said more powerful than Medeus; while I agree with her being on his level; I don't think he's technically stronger than him. It's more so she's comparable and/or a great threat to him. Or at the very least she might be stronger than Earth Dragon Medeus, but I'd certainly not say she's stronger than Dark Dragon; Marth is still the one who beats him in canon. So I'm just gonna at Earth Dragon to Tiki's justification if everyone's alright with that.
I'm also going to upgrade the human forms since just about everyone seems to be alright with that.
I'm also going to upgrade the human forms since just about everyone seems to be alright with that.
- 7
- 0
Agreed on the Tiki thing. More powerful then Earth Dragon Medeus but Shadow dragon is too questionable. Note Shadow Dragon Medeus is immune to the Divine Dragon effectiveness, the Shadow Dragon has higher base stats then the Divine Dragon class and Gotoh also describes him as being able to destroy humanity.
Human/Manakete forms is hard to say. In Binding Blade, it is indicated Manaketes are weaker then humans, least in that setting. There, of course, appear to be exceptions, Medeus for example has extremely high HP even in manakete form.
Human/Manakete forms is hard to say. In Binding Blade, it is indicated Manaketes are weaker then humans, least in that setting. There, of course, appear to be exceptions, Medeus for example has extremely high HP even in manakete form.
- 31,466
- 34,329
I mean, yes, manakates are easily weaker than foot soldiers, but they still have similar feats to the rest of the cast such as withstanding Bolganone or dodging cloud to ground lightning. Plus, Manaketes shouldn't be weaker than some 10 year old kid that harmed a highly trained general by punching him.
Eilbe manakates should at least of their durability and reaction speed scale to other soldiers.
Eilbe manakates should at least of their durability and reaction speed scale to other soldiers.
- 1,167
- 57
In Elibe Manaketes IN HUMAN FORM are weaker than humans.
Manaketes in dragon form were overwhelming the human armies with normal weapons and were only being defeated with Dragon killing weapons/Divine Weapons.
Manaketes in dragon form were overwhelming the human armies with normal weapons and were only being defeated with Dragon killing weapons/Divine Weapons.
- 225
- 13
- Thread starter
- #67
Great,he can solo armies.I'm not disputing that.Too bad you don't have to be particularly powerful to do that.You know what else can devastate countries over time in a war?Actual IRL armies.
I'm not too interested in tiers or whatever, but Medeus did singlehandedly turn the tide of battle, so it deserves a mention.
Related subject, Medeus is more powerful then the sealed Earth Dragons based on info. Not only was he singlehandedly chosen to guard the Altar by Naga, but it is implied he has a certain measure of control over them as Gotoh describes them as his servants.
According to Gotoh, the sealed Earth Dragons would turn the human civilization to ashes which indicates Medeus could do the same, especially as in his true form as a Shadow Dragon.
In gameplay, the Shadow Dragon also doesn't take effective damage from the power of Divine Dragons, though in the original, its halving power is nullified, making it and Divine Dragons fight on equal ground. Though the Shadow Dragon has higher raw stat.s
Again, while I'm not interested in tiers, I do agree that Tiki should be on the level of Medeus and Naga.
My personal impression of dragons is that is a small gap between Earth Dragons compared to Divine Dragons, Xane describes them as nearly as powerful, but a Shadow Dragon and Divine Dragon are equal as Loptyr in FE4 is described as Naga's equal, while Shadow Dragon Medeus is much more powerful then the other Earth Dragons.
Uhh...Naga chose Medeus because he was literally the only earth dragon who sealed his power into a stone and the rest degenerated.It wasn't because of all the remaining ones remaining he was the stronkest. And yeah,the earth dragons could wipe out humanity.Considering that just one can solo the continent and there were literally thousands of them sealed beneath the Dragons Table that's kind of a given. Again,there's nothing suggesting Medeus is on par with Naga.FFS a heavily weakened version of Naga is apparently powerful enough to take earth Dragon Medeus down.Idk about Shadow Dragon but who cares.
I'm not too interested in tiers or whatever, but Medeus did singlehandedly turn the tide of battle, so it deserves a mention.
Related subject, Medeus is more powerful then the sealed Earth Dragons based on info. Not only was he singlehandedly chosen to guard the Altar by Naga, but it is implied he has a certain measure of control over them as Gotoh describes them as his servants.
According to Gotoh, the sealed Earth Dragons would turn the human civilization to ashes which indicates Medeus could do the same, especially as in his true form as a Shadow Dragon.
In gameplay, the Shadow Dragon also doesn't take effective damage from the power of Divine Dragons, though in the original, its halving power is nullified, making it and Divine Dragons fight on equal ground. Though the Shadow Dragon has higher raw stat.s
Again, while I'm not interested in tiers, I do agree that Tiki should be on the level of Medeus and Naga.
My personal impression of dragons is that is a small gap between Earth Dragons compared to Divine Dragons, Xane describes them as nearly as powerful, but a Shadow Dragon and Divine Dragon are equal as Loptyr in FE4 is described as Naga's equal, while Shadow Dragon Medeus is much more powerful then the other Earth Dragons.
Uhh...Naga chose Medeus because he was literally the only earth dragon who sealed his power into a stone and the rest degenerated.It wasn't because of all the remaining ones remaining he was the stronkest. And yeah,the earth dragons could wipe out humanity.Considering that just one can solo the continent and there were literally thousands of them sealed beneath the Dragons Table that's kind of a given. Again,there's nothing suggesting Medeus is on par with Naga.FFS a heavily weakened version of Naga is apparently powerful enough to take earth Dragon Medeus down.Idk about Shadow Dragon but who cares.
- 31,466
- 34,329
Earth Dragon Medeus is still comparable to the likes of Duma and Mila; but I suppose at least Large Country level is a possibility for Naga, Loptr, Grima, and Dark Dragon Medeus; As a Dark Dragon (Shadow Dragon in the US port), Medeus was considered far more powerful than the fodder Earth Dragons. And he was long ago considered a threat to Naga in his Shadow Dragon form.
- 7
- 0
Medeus would have to be strong to hold them back in case the seal broke. Why would Medeus be appointed at all if he couldn't hold back the degenerated Earth Dragons? Its not as if Medeus is implied to want the job, Naga ordered Medeus to do so because he was strong enough to do the job. Gotoh's descriptions of Medeus in FE3 also state that he is greater then the Degenerated Earth Dragons in power. Its clear, Medeus isn't an ordinary Earth Dragon.12cheeper said:
Keep in mind, Medeus hadn't recovered his might in Shadow Dragon(game) and in canon couldn't even leave Dolhr's keep at that point.
Gotoh describes Shadow Dragon Medeus as being able to unleash hell on earth, Shadow Dragon form Medeus is also described as his true form by Gharnef and he is stated to have recovered all his powers.
And on all difficulties of Shadow Dragon, Nagi is much weaker then Medeus.
Related by manakete form, I mean their humanoid form. Basically Jahn says untransformed Manaketes are weaker then humans. In FE3's gameplay, Manaketes did have a lower HP stat cap then human units.
- Status
