Some Doom Slayer additions

[ShadowWhoWalks]

A small steel-barreled CRT of vengeance.​

Spoiler: Resistance to Biological Manipulation

Codex entries from Doom 2016 states that Argent waves both induce death and cause mutation via. genetic coding.

Possessed Engineer​ During the Lazarus Wave event, victims undergo dramatic changes to their physiology both internally and externally. Aside from fundamentally changing the composition of their internal organs, the high intensity plasma wave is strong enough to fuse metal to skin. In many cases, personal items such as watches and jewelry can burn through the skin and become permanently embedded in the victim. Revenant II​ The MLRB implant operation is conducted with the patient in an ante-mortem state and without anesthesia, as it is imperative the patient develops neural recognition of the augments before expiration. Once a neural connection with the implants has been established, the patient is repeatedly exposed to the Lazarus Wave blasts to induce death and transform the subject into a Revenant. As with Hell Soldiers, Revenants exhibit advance combat tactics that include range control, vertical combat governance, and rush tactics. Revenant III​ During initial development of the Revenant program, a curious side effect of Lazarus Wave exposure was discovered. The Argent Energy held within the plasmatic isotopes of the Lazarus Wave mutates ossein proteins, resulting in rapid skeletal growth. The expansion of the bone matter results in avulsion of the skin and connective tissue. The flesh is literally torn from the bones. As the skeleton continues to grow, the exposed internal organs begin to decompose. After several weeks of intense pain for the patient, the skeletal growth stops - resulting in a 3 meter beast comprised primarily of bone. The height varies depending on patient's original physiology. Despite this bizarre biological structure, the Revenant appears to bear no ill effects. Possessed Soldier​ While Lazarus Wave exposure does effectively wipe out any vestige of human behavior from most of its victims, some subjects continue to display tactical cognizance posthumously. As with Possessed Engineers, this does not appear to be random. If an individual has training in combat (as part of the UAC Military) the Lazarus Wave event will transform them into more than mere slaves. This anomaly further supports the theory that there is some form of genetic coding embedded within the Lazarus Wave particles which governs the outcome of Lazarus Wave exposure on a per-case basis.

It is stated that Summoners both uses similar waves for their casual attacks, and that they selectively transform humans into Possessed (who are stated, undergo mutation via. genetic coding).

Summoner I​ The Summoner, a cunning adversary, is primarily a defensive summoning unit. As the demon-horde swarms the enemy, the Summoner sustains the battle by opening a rift to Hell and calling forth reinforcements. To prevent being overrun by the relentless horde, the Summoner should become a primary target in any battle strategy. When directly challenged in combat, the Summoner is capable of channeling Hell energy into an Argent wave. Although this wave kills most humans, an occasional victim will be transformed into The Possessed. Surviving an Argent wave attack is extremely unlikely but does not appear to be random. There is evidence that the Summoner selects the most resilient of combatants for induction to the army of Hell. Summoner II​ The Lazarus Project has managed to successfully capture several Summoner demons. The imprisonment process requires careful preparation, as a Summoner will immediately launch multiple Argent wave attacks when trapped. To prevent this, Hell energy must be continuously drained from the demon until it is sufficiently sedated. Anatomical study of the Summoner suggests that it is a highly evolved sub-genus of the Imp form.

(Immune to Argent waves used by the Summoner to mutate humans through genetic coding)

Spoiler: Resistance to Poison Manipulation and Disease Manipulation

The Hellgrowth - Part II​ The growth exhibits certain pre-determined qualities. In the consumption of our ecosystem, it creates environmental conditions more conducive for its own continued formation; in effect, employing an organic method of terraformation. The resulting environment is hostile to terrestrial life, producing atmospheric toxins and a multitude of environmental hazards. Tentacle​ The subject of great scrutiny for ARC scientists on Earth, these Hellgrowth formations have appeared all over the planet, taking hold wherever Hell has made its presence known. Forming chaotic, seemingly random structural patterns, the propagation of hellgrowth has taken root at an alarming rate, exhibiting a cellular reproduction cycle that ARC scientists fear may be impossible to contain. The resultant environmental effect is extremely hostile to terrestrial life, producing atmospheric bio-contagens and a multitude of organic hazards. Wherever these nest-like formations emerge, they are protected by swathes of defensive tendrils - long-thorned tentacles that demonstrate keen awareness of their surroundings, fully capable of disembowling anything that it deems to be a potential threat to the nest. The Blood Swamps​ The Blood Swamps stretch across miles of Hell, a festering bog of disease and acidic rain. Towering above the mire, Ingmore's Sanctum rises into the clouds, a solitary vision of Hell's ancient past. Here the Father decreed his wisdom and oversaw his works, and it is here that his life sphere is interred. The Sanctum serves as a mausoleum of Gods, the sanctity of the spheres protected by the ancient ritual known as the Trial of Maligog.

Most of the regions of Earth are stated to be terraformed, and the Doom Slayer interacts with tentacles which are positioned close to Hellgrowth nests, and one level is located in the Super Gore Nest which is stated to be the oldest invasion point and the most corrupted place on Earth.
We can arguably put this in the Classic Doomguy key, since he traversed in deeply demonic environment and demonstrated extraordinary resistance to radiation.

(Immune to the toxic atmosphere created by Hellgrowth, causing the atmosphere to contains bio-contagions and a multitude of organic hazards. Able to survive within the Blood Swamps which are described as a festering bog of disease)

Spoiler: Dimensional Storage

Here are two clear examples, though they are not the only ones:

The Doom Slayer enters the portal empty-handed in third-person view. We switch to first person view and he is seen retrieving and storing Davoth's Life Sphere (which is a big orb, not easy to carry around). We switch to third person view and he returns to the portal empty-handed even though he is supposed to be carrying Davoth's Life Sphere with him:


The Doom Slayer walks into the Luminarium empty-handed in third person view. We switch to first person view and he has retrieved Davoth's Life Sphere and gives it away. Once the Davoth's physical form is restored we see in third person view that the Doom Slayer is still empty-handed. Moments later we see that the Doom Slayer somehow got his hands on a Super Shotgun:

(Seen retrieving and storing items and weapons within cutscenes with no visible storage space on his person)

Spoiler: Paralysis Inducement and Sealing for the Crucible

So let's review some information:

1. Titans has been killed by Atlan mechs, and by the Doom Slayer's guns and fists.
2. Doomguy killed the Icon of Sin in Doom II by exploiting its exposed brain.
3. Samuel states that only a Slayer's Crucible blade can stop a Titan and that without it the Icon of Sin cannot be stopped. The codex states that the Crucible is the only energy blade reportedly strong enough to slay Titans-class demons.
4. Samuel states that if the Crucible blade lodged in the Dreadnought Titan is removed, the Titan will rise again.
5. Hugo Martin stated that the Crucible immobilizes Titans.
6. Some demons demonstrated the ability to resurrect or survive without a body; for example the Spider Mastermind used Olivia to gain a physical body and was communicating with her before this happened, the Icon of Sin was resurrected using the Betrayer's son, and the Cyberdemon used to be a crumbled petrified fossil but regenerated back to life after being exposed to Argent energy:

Specimen CD587-1​ The Corrax tablets discovered during the UAC Automated Survey of 2143 mention an ancient battle in the Titan's Realm during the third age. An expedition to the plains recovered several relics including the petrified remains of a massive shadow lord believed to be an ancient Baalgar demon. Researchers in the Lazarus Labs began work on piecing the creature back together. At first the project mandate was to construct an educational and inspirational exhibit. However, the focus quickly shifted when an attempt to meld the petrified tissue uncovered that exposure to small doses of plasmatic Argent Energy would reanimate the relic. The potential of creating living, growing tissue from the relic and the lure of an ultimate battle demon was too enticing to - pass up. The project team quickly shifted direction and began work on melding the ancient remains with high tech weaponry.

So I believe the most consistent explanation is that the Crucible paralyzes the body of demons and seals them within their paralyzed body, effectively getting rid of them and preventing them from resurrecting or regenerating in the future.

(Titans stabbed with the Crucible remain immobilized and unable to resurrect or regenerate as long as their body is pierced by the Crucible's detachable blade)

Spoiler: Empowerment and scaling the AP of weapons to the Doom Slayer

Properly the largest change.

Hugo Martin confirmed that the Doom Slayer is able to empower whatever weapon he is carrying, despite this not being reflected in gameplay.

This would be consistent with the story itself. For example the Dreadnought Titan have been described as invincible when faced by the Night Sentinels, and Hell Barges are stated to be indestructible against conventional weapons. In the story, the Icon of Sin was damaged by the Doom Slayer's handheld weapons. Furthermore, the Titan Champion was stated by Hugo Martin to be defeated using Doom Slayers' "guns and fists", meaning that the guns held by Doom Slayer managed to damage the most powerful Titan Hell could muster. We also see Doom Slayer attack Davoth using his Shotgun.

(Able to empower the weapons he is carrying. Was able to damage Titans using guns despite Titans being stated to invincible and indestructible against conventional weapons used by the ARC and the Night Sentinels. Attempted to kill Davoth after his physical form is restored using his Super Shotgun)

 

[VegetaFan756]

For the Dimensional Storage thing, I think Hammerspace is a viable excuse

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Hammerspace is recognized as an alternative name for the Dimensional Storage ability page:

Dimensional Storage

Dimensional Storage (also called Hammerspace or Magic satchel) is the ability to store as many items as one wishes in a sort of "storage area" without any regard for running out of room. Users are then able to summon the desired item(s) at their whim, making it seem as if they pulled each object...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[VegetaFan756]

oh ok that makes sense.
anyway yeah I approve.
but uh...
how does this wiki deal with that thing saying Doomslayer is stronger than anybody he fights.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

By scaling him to the strongest being he fought. Which is currently the Titans -> Davoth.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

i agree, this look clear

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

looks good

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Bump.

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

I'm ok with most of this, the only part I have some issue with is the Paralysis Inducement for The Crucible since in the actual game it is said to kill Titans. But you can counter that by arguing that "death" to Titans is a form of incapacitation akin to paralysis/immobilization, like you said above in the OP Titans that were killed by The Crucible can come back to life if The Crucible is removed from them. Gonna remain neutral on that.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

mmm also Doomguy needs hacking through VEGA

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

During initial development of the Revenant program, a curious side effect of Lazarus Wave exposure was discovered. The Argent Energy held within the plasmatic isotopes of the Lazarus Wave mutates ossein proteins, resulting in rapid skeletal growth. The expansion of the bone matter results in avulsion of the skin and connective tissue. The flesh is literally torn from the bones. As the skeleton continues to grow, the exposed internal organs begin to decompose. After several weeks of intense pain for the patient, the skeletal growth stops - resulting in a 3 meter beast comprised primarily of bone. The height varies depending on patient's original physiology. Despite this bizarre biological structure, the Revenant appears to bear no ill effects.

Would Doomguy resisting this also grant a resistance to Bone Manipulation and Size Manipulation, since he can casually snuff out attacks that can increase the size of a person's bones?

 

[Axxtentacle]

I'm ok with everything, but I will comment here (I see what you said at the beginning there lmao, let's see how this goes)

Also I second the hammerspace thing VegetaFan said

So let's review some information:

1. Titans has been killed by Atlan mechs, and by the Doom Slayer's guns and fists.
2. Doomguy killed the Icon of Sin in Doom II by exploiting its exposed brain.
3. Samuel states that only a Slayer's Crucible blade can stop a Titan and that without it the Icon of Sin cannot be stopped. The codex states that the Crucible is the only energy blade reportedly strong enough to slay Titans-class demons.
4. Samuel states that if the Crucible blade lodged in the Dreadnought Titan is removed, the Titan will rise again.
5. Hugo Martin stated that the Crucible immobilizes Titans.
6. Some demons demonstrated the ability to resurrect or survive without a body; for example the Spider Mastermind used Olivia to gain a physical body and was communicating with her before this happened, the Icon of Sin was resurrected using the Betrayer's son, and the Cyberdemon used to be a crumbled petrified fossil but regenerated back to life after being exposed to Argent energy:

Specimen CD587-1​ The Corrax tablets discovered during the UAC Automated Survey of 2143 mention an ancient battle in the Titan's Realm during the third age. An expedition to the plains recovered several relics including the petrified remains of a massive shadow lord believed to be an ancient Baalgar demon. Researchers in the Lazarus Labs began work on piecing the creature back together. At first the project mandate was to construct an educational and inspirational exhibit. However, the focus quickly shifted when an attempt to meld the petrified tissue uncovered that exposure to small doses of plasmatic Argent Energy would reanimate the relic. The potential of creating living, growing tissue from the relic and the lure of an ultimate battle demon was too enticing to - pass up. The project team quickly shifted direction and began work on melding the ancient remains with high tech weaponry.

So I believe the most consistent explanation is that the Crucible paralyzes the body of demons and seals them within their paralyzed body, effectively getting rid of them and preventing them from resurrecting or regenerating in the future.

I will say, I am interested. But, I will also say, the only part that implies paralyzing is number 5. Sealing also makes literally no sense, that's just a big assumption from nothing that is required to make paralyzation make 100% sense with number 6 being a factor.

First, Titans do not resurrect as a species. The Champion (the one that Doom Slayer in lore only) did not resurrect and we can see his body, and there is no visual Crucible stabbed anywhere in his body. You may argue this to be a retcon, but I don't think so, because the Crucible is supposed to be special for keeping titans down because of it's strength, as it was the only "conventional weapon" able to kill titans. To follow: Atlans are NOT conventional weapons. They are designed after titans (the horns on them, even in the art for TAG they're seemingly designed similarly), and seemingly designed to kill titans. Why would they have giant mechs that have been shown to kill titans if these were the "conventional weapons" the titans were immune to? The only reasonable answer is that they aren't "conventional weaponry".

This, along with Titans not resurrecting as a species, makes Paralyzation a bit iffy still. Hugo's statement still isn't the most important here, as this is the only piece of "conventional weaponry" that can kill Titan-class demons. This would also explain why Doomguy would need the Crucible to take out the titans that are capable of resurrection. If all titans resurrect, then the Doom Slayer wouldn't have kept the Titan down or any of the other titans he would have battled against in his ages of warring against Hell. It wouldn't make sense for himself to be able to neg resurrection of any titans if he needs the Crucible to do it.

These 2 scans, X and X, show that the Icon of Sin is a "Great One" in terms of demons. He's special, basically. This second one refers to the Champion by a very similar name, "The Great One", and he's stated to be "greater than all who come before", which makes him > older versions of The Icon of Sin. You'd imagine if Titans have resurrection as a race power, one of the strongest ones would be able to resurrect.

Overall, good work, but I still disagree with this one.

 

[Kilgorethecouch]

Bump

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

Yeah honestly, now thinking over it once again, I don't think Paralysis Inducement works for The Crucible. In the actual game it is said to kill Titans, not induce paralysis into them or anything like that. As Axx said above the only piece of information that really hammers in the thing having PI is Hugo's statement, which can be dismissed via death of the author logic, especially since it contradicts the actual text in the games.

Plus the Sealing bit is pure speculation since no source afaik says that The Sentinel Crucible has the ability to seal away things in any shape or form.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Bump?

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

mmm also Doomguy needs hacking through VEGA

Surprised Hacking isn't already in the profile. Remember it being suggested long ago in CRTs.

Would Doomguy resisting this also grant a resistance to Bone Manipulation and Size Manipulation, since he can casually snuff out attacks that can increase the size of a person's bones?

They would be Bone Manipulation via. Biological Manipulation, and Size Manipulation via. Biological Manipulation. So Biological Manipulation concisely covers them.

I will say, I am interested. But, I will also say, the only part that implies paralyzing is number 5. Sealing also makes literally no sense, that's just a big assumption from nothing that is required to make paralyzation make 100% sense with number 6 being a factor.

Yeah honestly, now thinking over it once again, I don't think Paralysis Inducement works for The Crucible. In the actual game it is said to kill Titans, not induce paralysis into them or anything like that. As Axx said above the only piece of information that really hammers in the thing having PI is Hugo's statement, which can be dismissed via death of the author logic, especially since it contradicts the actual text in the games.

Plus the Sealing bit is pure speculation since no source afaik says that The Sentinel Crucible has the ability to seal away things in any shape or form.

Never argued that Atlan Mechs are conventional weapons or that all Titans automatically resurrect or are likely to resurrect. In fact the Icon of Sin resurrected under special circumstances and remained dead for a very long time after DOOM II.

3 & 4 are key evidence not addressed:

Samuel: Only a Slayer's Crucible blade can stop a Titan. You must get the Sentinel City of Taras Nabad to retrieve your Crucible before it is too late. Without it, the Titan cannot be stopped. Samuel: Your Crucible is still embedded in the Titan that attacked this Sentinel city. Your first battle against the demons in this world - where the legend of the Slayer began. Samuel: Samuel: If the Crucible blade is removed, the Titan will rise again.

So what would be your explanation for Titans rising after the Crucible's blade is removed from them + The Crucible Blade being the only weapon capable of 'stopping' Titans?

We've seen Titans getting killed/stopped without Crucible:

• Icon of Sin in Doom II
• Titans killed by Atlan Mech
• Champion Titan by the Doom Slayer's fists and guns

To harmonize this, it seems we must say that the Crucible 'stops' Titans in a different way. So what this different way be?
And why would a Titan rise immediately after being the Crucible blade stabbing it is removed? If they are just dead why wouldn't they just remain dead after the weapon that killed them is removed?

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

3 & 4 are key evidence not addressed:

Samuel: Only a Slayer's Crucible blade can stop a Titan. You must get the Sentinel City of Taras Nabad to retrieve your Crucible before it is too late. Without it, the Titan cannot be stopped. Samuel: Your Crucible is still embedded in the Titan that attacked this Sentinel city. Your first battle against the demons in this world - where the legend of the Slayer began. Samuel: Samuel: If the Crucible blade is removed, the Titan will rise again.

So what would be your explanation for Titans rising after the Crucible's blade is removed from them + The Crucible Blade being the only weapon capable of 'stopping' Titans?

"Stopping" something can mean a lot of things, so it is best to look at the context behind what The Crucible can do. The context in the actual game says that The Crucible is powerful enough to slay titans, as in it kills them, and they will remain dead as long as The Crucible blade is in their corpses. The only piece of evidence you have presented thus far is a Twitch author statement which contradicts the actual text we see in the game which would take precedence over a statement that didn't go through any editorial process unlike what we would see in the game.

I'll leave the rest to Axx.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

You didn't answer the question of why they would not remain dead after the Crucible's blade is removed.

Doom Slayer's fists and Atlan Mechs can kill Titans, and there is no conditional 'as long as their fists/spears remains lodged inside the Titan'. Are they not powerful enough to 'slay' Titans according to you?

 

[Axxtentacle]

Never argued that Atlan Mechs are conventional weapons or that all Titans automatically resurrect or are likely to resurrect. In fact the Icon of Sin resurrected under special circumstances and remained dead for a very long time after DOOM II.

Yes, the incomplete Icon with a different set of powers. I don't see how this helps you at all.

3 & 4 are key evidence not addressed:

Samuel: Only a Slayer's Crucible blade can stop a Titan. You must get the Sentinel City of Taras Nabad to retrieve your Crucible before it is too late. Without it, the Titan cannot be stopped. Samuel: Your Crucible is still embedded in the Titan that attacked this Sentinel city. Your first battle against the demons in this world - where the legend of the Slayer began. Samuel: Samuel: If the Crucible blade is removed, the Titan will rise again.

So what would be your explanation for Titans rising after the Crucible's blade is removed from them + The Crucible Blade being the only weapon capable of 'stopping' Titans?

Not "titans", the special ones who can resurrect. Titans are unaffected by weaker, conventional weaponry because of how much more powerful they are, not because all resurrect or anything along those lines. The Dreadnaught we know was killed and, for a special reason, you have to keep the blade in it to keep it dead. This same thing happened with the Icon later on.

None of these help your point anyway.

We've seen Titans getting killed/stopped without Crucible:

• Icon of Sin in Doom II
• Titans killed by Atlan Mech
• Champion Titan by the Doom Slayer's fists and guns

To harmonize this, it seems we must say that the Crucible 'stops' Titans in a different way. So what this different way be?

Strength. That's why the Crucible is stated to be POWERFUL ENOUGH to SLAY titans. It keeping special titans who have powers like resurrection down is entirely separate, as that is not a strength-determined thing.

And why would a Titan rise immediately after being the Crucible blade stabbing it is removed? If they are just dead why wouldn't they just remain dead after the weapon that killed them is removed?

None of this proves Paralysis? This is based on the assumption that the only reason the Crucible can kill Titans is because of it's supernatural power to keep them from coming back after being killed. But this is heavily contradicted by Atlans since they're just extremely powerful, and the Titans are strong enough to brush off any normal weaponry.

The Dreadnaught was killed and Samuel implied it will come back to life if you take the blade out. This is not the case for any other titans except the Icon of Sin. Both of which are specifically special & powerful titans (they are named).

The only way Paralysis & Sealing work is if all titans have some way of coming back after death, as the raw strength of the Atlans would be irrelevant if they didn't. We already know not all titans do, due to the champion. The only conclusion you can reach from this collection of evidence is that most Titans were simply not killable due to how physically powerful they are, so a specifically stronger weapon like the Atlans, or an extremely powerful weapon/person like the Crucible/Doomslayer would be able to take them down. Unless you are implying that the Doomslayer needs to use the Crucible to Paralyze & Seal all titans, which is just blatantly untrue.

And I will reiterate this since it was ignored. Sealing HAS to be with Paralysis in order to make it work, due to a point you brought up. The Sentinel Crucible has no statements not feats of Sealing anything, anywhere. Nothing concrete enough to say that it certifiably has sealing.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Yes, the incomplete Icon with a different set of powers. I don't see how this helps you at all.

Can you cite the Icon being 'incomplete', and how does it become complete?

Not "titans", the special ones who can resurrect. Titans are unaffected by weaker, conventional weaponry because of how much more powerful they are, not because all resurrect or anything along those lines. The Dreadnaught we know was killed and, for a special reason, you have to keep the blade in it to keep it dead. This same thing happened with the Icon later on.

None of these help your point anyway.

Samuel did not specify any specific type of Titan, so where did you get this from?

If you are claiming that the special reason is that it will automatically and immediately regenerate back to life even if it received as much damage as the Champion Titan, where is the evidence for that?

Strength. That's why the Crucible is stated to be POWERFUL ENOUGH to SLAY titans. It keeping special titans who have powers like resurrection down is entirely separate, as that is not a strength-determined thing.

Doom Slayer's fists and Atlan Mechs are strong enough to kill Titans; in addition the Night Sentinels have been killing Ancestrals who are similar to Titans long before the Doom Slayer has arrived. So this doesn't justify the reverence for the Crucible, especially since the Doom Slayer is the only person who ever wielded it.

The strength of energy blades are equal.


It is debunked headcanon for example to claim that Davoth's blade and the Sentinel Hammer and the Crucible and the Marauder's Axe can 'shatter' each other.

The Dreadnaught was killed and Samuel implied it will come back to life if you take the blade out. This is not the case for any other titans except the Icon of Sin. Both of which are specifically special & powerful titans (they are named).

Did Samuel name any Titan when he said "Only a Slayer's Crucible blade can stop a Titan"?

The only way Paralysis & Sealing work is if all titans have some way of coming back after death, as the raw strength of the Atlans would be irrelevant if they didn't. We already know not all titans do, due to the champion. The only conclusion you can reach from this collection of evidence is that most Titans were simply not killable due to how physically powerful they are, so a specifically stronger weapon like the Atlans, or an extremely powerful weapon/person like the Crucible/Doomslayer would be able to take them down. Unless you are implying that the Doomslayer needs to use the Crucible to Paralyze & Seal all titans, which is just blatantly untrue.

Not really. It works just fine if Paralysis and Sealing are a unique and easy way to neutralize Titans, and prevented any potential (but not certain) resurrection of dangerous ones.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Can you cite the Icon being 'incomplete', and how does it become complete?

It's... in a wall? It has a hole in it's skull? It's not the fully powered one, and even if you say that isn't the same, the current Icon is different simply because of how it was brought back this time. It was done via transmuting a human (the Betrayer's son), and the first ability it showcases it not an ability of the old Icon. They're different so the current day Icon having resurrection is not countered by older Icons not having it.

Samuel did not specify any specific type of Titan, so where did you get this from?

Because he's literally always referencing the dreadnaught or the Icon? Why are you even questioning this? Do you know the scenes you're talking about??

If you are claiming that the special reason is that it will automatically and immediately regenerate back to life even if it received as much damage as the Champion Titan, where is the evidence for that?

automatically and immediately

????
When did I say immediately? It doesn't have to be instant to be type 4. Stop strawmanning me by misrepresenting my points.

Also, you still HAVE to put the Crucible in the Icon's head after it's been nigh-obliterated. If it is killable because it doesn't have resurrection, Paralysis is useless because the Slayer can just kill it. He's shown himself to be very capable of doing so.

Doom Slayer's fists and Atlan Mechs are strong enough to kill Titans; in addition the Night Sentinels have been killing Ancestrals who are similar to Titans long before the Doom Slayer has arrived. So this doesn't justify the reverence for the Crucible, especially since the Doom Slayer is the only person who ever wielded it.

"who are similar" Ancestrals got killed by basic metal weapons. Titans are so strong they're immune to earth 150 years in the future's strongest weapons. Null and void point.

The strength of energy blades are equal.


It is debunked headcanon for example to claim that Davoth's blade and the Sentinel Hammer and the Crucible and the Marauder's Axe can 'shatter' each other.

Contradicted heavily, we went over this in the original thread. I know you're a fan of using old arguments that we already went over, but I'm not. Also I guess all Sentinels' energy weapons are capable of killing titans, despite them using Atlans to do it literally every time

Did Samuel name any Titan when he said "Only a Slayer's Crucible blade can stop a Titan"?

No, but it's when he's talking about the Dreadnaught/Icon and those are the only 2 that ever needed it. The Icon suffered more direct damage than the Champion at the time, and we know the Champion's body is also heavily decayed so we have no real idea how much damage the Doom Slayer did. This point means nothing.

Either way, Samuel isn't infallible. We don't have to take EVERYTHING he says as fact when it doesn't make sense, like this quote. Because we know for a fact that not only the Slayer's crucible can stop a titan, we've seen atlans do it, and it's not even because their spears have anything like Paralysis. We see a titan corpse that doesn't have a spear in it and it's just dead. Further proving that Atlans are just strong enough to kill Titans in general, and not all Titans have a supernatural power to come back or survive somehow.

Not really. It works just fine if Paralysis and Sealing are a unique and easy way to neutralize Titans, and prevented any potential (but not certain) resurrection of dangerous ones.

So they can kill Ancestrals, which according to you are close to Titans (they're not, but i'm not gonna steelman you in this first part for this by using the right argument) which can be killed by steel weapons the Sentinels used a long time ago. Earth's strongest weapons <<<<<<<<<<< medieval swords, and they also require Atlans to kill these titans via strength when they could actually do it via using basic medieval weaponry. :laugh:

Still, the only proof you've shown is for Paralysis, and it's weak. You have no proof of Sealing anywhere, so still completely null, and I really don't need to debunk the rest till you prove that, but I will anyway. The literal only reason you proposed sealing was because you yourself brought up that specific demons can resurrect with some weird shit that doesn't involve their bodies. It HAS to be there for Paralysis to work, but there's just no proof of it other than "it would work", which is not even enough to list a possibly on any profile.

Immortality Negation does not require this entirely baseless assumption. The original interpretations were either Immortality Neg or Paralysis, and we've already been over this in the past. We got what we got for a reason.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

It's... in a wall? It has a hole in it's skull? It's not the fully powered one, and even if you say that isn't the same, the current Icon is different simply because of how it was brought back this time. It was done via transmuting a human (the Betrayer's son), and the first ability it showcases it not an ability of the old Icon. They're different so the current day Icon having resurrection is not countered by older Icons not having it.

Being restrained with a hole cut into its head doesn't mean it is 'incomplete'.
Is there info stating that the Icon of Sin got resurrected through different methods?

Because he's literally always referencing the dreadnaught or the Icon? Why are you even questioning this? Do you know the scenes you're talking about??

What is stated is: "Only a Slayer's Crucible blade can stop a Titan."
You claimed that this actually means: "Only a Slayer's Crucible blade can stop the special Titans who can resurrect".

I don't see indication that it is not a general statement.

????
When did I say immediately? It doesn't have to be instant to be type 4. Stop strawmanning me by misrepresenting my points.

Also, you still HAVE to put the Crucible in the Icon's head after it's been nigh-obliterated. If it is killable because it doesn't have resurrection, Paralysis is useless because the Slayer can just kill it. He's shown himself to be very capable of doing so.

So to better understand your position, if the Doom Slayer heavily damaged the Dreadnought's brain and smashed its skull, then should we assume that the Dreadnought would be able to resurrect on its own?

If permanent paralysis provides permanent neutralization of the Icon of Sin, it would not be useless, and would eliminate the only known method to resurrect the Icon of Sin since it didn't really die.

"who are similar" Ancestrals got killed by basic metal weapons. Titans are so strong they're immune to earth 150 years in the future's strongest weapons. Null and void point.

By the blessedness of the First Ones, we forged sword and shield and took the hammer to the Ancestrals. We claimed dominion of creation by right of blood and magick, and the Time of Man came to be.

They defeated the Ancestrals using weapons blessed/powered by Wraith Energy/magic. As amusing as that would be, they were not poking them with a normal steel dagger or a basic steel sword.

Also you didn't address the bulk of the point.

Contradicted heavily, we went over this in the original thread. I know you're a fan of using old arguments that we already went over, but I'm not. Also I guess all Sentinels' energy weapons are capable of killing titans, despite them using Atlans to do it literally every time

Contradicting your audience interpretation is one thing, but what you need to prove is that it 'heavily' contradicts canon and is irreconcilable with canon. As with other unaddressed arguments, there is a good chance it was going to be brought back at some point.

There is no issue with Sentinel blades being able to damage a Titan, neither is there an issue with a dura-neg lightsaber being able to damage Titans. This doesn't mean that the relatively tiny blades are able to deliver non-insignificant damage. They might be able to 'cut' a mountain, but they don't have the size or destructive capacity to do significant damage in any reasonable amount of time.
The Slayer's Crucible would be unique in its immobilization effect after poking a Titan.

Either way, Samuel isn't infallible. We don't have to take EVERYTHING he says as fact when it doesn't make sense, like this quote. Because we know for a fact that not only the Slayer's crucible can stop a titan, we've seen atlans do it, and it's not even because their spears have anything like Paralysis. We see a titan corpse that doesn't have a spear in it and it's just dead. Further proving that Atlans are just strong enough to kill Titans in general, and not all Titans have a supernatural power to come back or survive somehow.

Easily reconciled with:

• Titans can be killed without Crucible.
• Crucible has a unique method to stop Titans by stabbing them.

Notice that we don't see bright blue lines (indicating Wraith Energy) on Titans after Atlan mechs are done stabbing them.

If your explanation dismisses information and creates discontinuity, then it is inferior to one that doesn't.

Still, the only proof you've shown is for Paralysis, and it's weak. You have no proof of Sealing anywhere, so still completely null, and I really don't need to debunk the rest till you prove that, but I will anyway. The literal only reason you proposed sealing was because you yourself brought up that specific demons can resurrect with some weird shit that doesn't involve their bodies. It HAS to be there for Paralysis to work, but there's just no proof of it other than "it would work", which is not even enough to list a possibly on any profile.

Immortality Negation does not require this entirely baseless assumption. The original interpretations were either Immortality Neg or Paralysis, and we've already been over this in the past. We got what we got for a reason.

Consistency without dismissing stuff + The director explaining what is happening (immobilization) is very strong actually.
Mentally writing out events and statements is a bigger assumption than what I've provided.

Paralysis Inducement was already scheduled to be applied with the approval of multiple members; we can say that this improvement is meant to be for a reason.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Being restrained with a hole cut into its head doesn't mean it is 'incomplete'.
Is there info stating that the Icon of Sin got resurrected through different methods?

Why else would it have a hole cut into it's head? Either way even with this argument is it blatantly a different version of the Icon with different powers. Can't use it to contradict the current day Icon having certain powers.

Also unnecessary since the old Icon doesn't have the same powers.

What is stated is: "Only a Slayer's Crucible blade can stop a Titan."
You claimed that this actually means: "Only a Slayer's Crucible blade can stop the special Titans who can resurrect".

I don't see indication that it is not a general statement.

Because it's blatantly untrue? The Atlans stop them.

So to better understand your position, if the Doom Slayer heavily damaged the Dreadnought's brain and smashed its skull, then should we assume that the Dreadnought would be able to resurrect on its own?

Resurrection from the dead usually means they come back from dying, so, yeah...? This is a nonsense point. If they come back from the dead then they come back from the dead.

If permanent paralysis provides permanent neutralization of the Icon of Sin, it would not be useless, and would eliminate the only known method to resurrect the Icon of Sin since it didn't really die.

Why would it provide permanent neutralization? You gave a piece of evidence indicating paralyzing the physical body wouldn't be enough.

By the blessedness of the First Ones, we forged sword and shield and took the hammer to the Ancestrals. We claimed dominion of creation by right of blood and magick, and the Time of Man came to be.

They defeated the Ancestrals using weapons blessed/powered by Wraith Energy/magic. As amusing as that would be, they were not poking them with a normal steel dagger or a basic steel sword.

Also you didn't address the bulk of the point.

...what? Lmao did you ignore the section right before this? They also say the Wraiths gave them land. Do the Wraiths now have the power to give people land and somehow supernaturally make it "theirs"? No. It's a religion and the Wraiths are the creator deities who the Sentinels believe blessed them. They didn't infuse their magic into anything because the Sentinels hadn't met them yet. In fact, they only got any kind of magic/energy much later in the Demon invasions of Argenta.

Contradicting your audience interpretation is one thing, but what you need to prove is that it 'heavily' contradicts canon and is irreconcilable with canon. As with other unaddressed arguments, there is a good chance it was going to be brought back at some point.

The proof: The Sentinel Crucible is special for being able to kill Titans. KILL titans. If they could make weapons with Paralysis on that scale and they could use small weapons to kill Titans they would have done it. Either way, as you claim, Paralysis is not needed for most Titans anyway. Since they do not need to be stopped in any other way, just killed.

There is no issue with Sentinel blades being able to damage a Titan, neither is there an issue with a dura-neg lightsaber being able to damage Titans. This doesn't mean that the relatively tiny blades are able to deliver non-insignificant damage. They might be able to 'cut' a mountain, but they don't have the size or destructive capacity to do significant damage in any reasonable amount of time.
The Slayer's Crucible would be unique in its immobilization effect after poking a Titan.

There is. Because the Sentinel Crucible is specifically the only one STRONG ENOUGH to KILL THEM.

Easily reconciled with:

• Titans can be killed without Crucible.
• Crucible has a unique method to stop Titans by stabbing them.

Notice that we don't see bright blue lines (indicating Wraith Energy) on Titans after Atlan mechs are done stabbing them.

If your explanation dismisses information and creates discontinuity, then it is inferior to one that doesn't.

Mine doesn't. Yours creates them more, and those 2 points literally works better with mine considering we don't assume a baseless power (sealing).

Hell, you're treating Samuel like he's infallible in one argument then just saying he's wrong here with "Titans can be killed without The Crucible". Your argument, yet again, contradicts itself.

Consistency without dismissing stuff + The director explaining what is happening (immobilization) is very strong actually.
Mentally writing out events and statements is a bigger assumption than what I've provided.

Ah yes, "consistency" = assuming a baseless power (sealing) in order to make Paralysis work because of a singular WoG statement that, as explained previously, is unreliable.

Paralysis Inducement was already scheduled to be applied with the approval of multiple members; we can say that this improvement is meant to be for a reason.

Ah yes, a year old thread that got overturned when Immortality Negation got accepted. Don't even try, this is very well a scummy move to make, since you very well know that this was overturned. Why try to manipulate people by not showing them where it was decided to not be? This thread happened after that one. Seems a bit underhanded lmao

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I was asked to give @ShadowWhoWalks a light warning. But when debating threads, please try to read every point from your opponent carefully before posting and try to look for new points to counter. It is okay to debate, but constantly reusing the older arguments and claiming they were unaddressed isn't the particularly best practice.

Thank you.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Why else would it have a hole cut into it's head? Either way even with this argument is it blatantly a different version of the Icon with different powers. Can't use it to contradict the current day Icon having certain powers.

Also unnecessary since the old Icon doesn't have the same powers.

Doom 2016 has a skull of a dead Icon of Sin without a hole and with the modern design.

What is apparent is that the Icon of Sin can be killed normally, and it stays dead without outside intervention for a very long time.

Because it's blatantly untrue? The Atlans stop them.

In other words, your interpretation is unable to be compatible with all canon lore, and requires dismissal of statements.
It is only untrue if the Crucible doesn't have a unique way to stop Titans, and this is confirmed with the game director telling us that it immobilizes Titans rather than killing them.

Resurrection from the dead usually means they come back from dying, so, yeah...? This is a nonsense point. If they come back from the dead then they come back from the dead.

Ok, do you have a statement about the Dreadnought Titan being able to resurrect on its own from that much damage with no Crucible involved?
It does sound like you are arguing the Dreadnought and Icon of Sin should get either Mid to High-Mid passive Regeneration.

Why would it provide permanent neutralization? You gave a piece of evidence indicating paralyzing the physical body wouldn't be enough.

Because it is not feasible to remove the blade without a hilt, the injuries are not enough to stop the Dreadnought Titan from moving (he thrashes around as the blue energy engulfs him), and the glowing blue energy implies it.

...what? Lmao did you ignore the section right before this? They also say the Wraiths gave them land. Do the Wraiths now have the power to give people land and somehow supernaturally make it "theirs"? No. It's a religion and the Wraiths are the creator deities who the Sentinels believe blessed them. They didn't infuse their magic into anything because the Sentinels hadn't met them yet. In fact, they only got any kind of magic/energy much later in the Demon invasions of Argenta.

And the section right after, explains how the weapons were made and their nature, which is based on Wraith and their magic/energy.

Sorry but you are being confused about the lore. Before encountering demons the Night Sentinels used Wraith/Sentinel Energy (which is blue in color) taken directly from Wraiths. After Hell invaded, the priests mixed Wraith Energy + Hell Energy to produce the more potent fuel of Argent Energy.
This is why Doom 2016 has the captured Wraiths stationed in the Well where Hell is producing Argent.
In the flashback where Doomguy is first brought into Argent D'Nur, you can see blue energy spears.

The proof: The Sentinel Crucible is special for being able to kill Titans. KILL titans. If they could make weapons with Paralysis on that scale and they could use small weapons to kill Titans they would have done it. Either way, as you claim, Paralysis is not needed for most Titans anyway. Since they do not need to be stopped in any other way, just killed.

The terminology used is reportedly slay and stop Titans. When asked whether the Crucible kills or immobilizes Titans, the game director himself said that it immobilizes them, so we don't need to speculate.
The Slayer's Crucible is special with the only one being able to activate and use it being the prophesized Slayer. It is not something that can be mass produced.

There is. Because the Sentinel Crucible is specifically the only one STRONG ENOUGH to KILL THEM.

The term used is powerful, not strong. Secondly, Being stronger either refers to special ability or physical power. We are told from the game director/writer that there is no substantial difference in physical power, in other words we turn to special ability.

Excessive physical power doesn't appear to be relevant at all to begin with.
Let's say that there is a durability-negating laser sword that has regular sword size. Do you agree that it is inefficient for killing Titans compared to Atlans? If not, can you explain how it is more efficient?

I'll ask you to demonstrate that the statement is completely and irreconcilably inconsistent before you dismiss a source we use for much of Doom Slayer's scaling.

Mine doesn't. Yours creates them more, and those 2 points literally works better with mine considering we don't assume a baseless power (sealing).

Hell, you're treating Samuel like he's infallible in one argument then just saying he's wrong here with "Titans can be killed without The Crucible". Your argument, yet again, contradicts itself.

So you are denying that you said that we should dismiss Samuel's statement because it is unreliable, and saying that we should not dismiss it?
And you agree with the second point that the Crucible stops Titans without killing them?

I am genuinely confused by what you wrote. Titans being killed without the Crucible is something I've been saying from the beginning, and this is consistent with the Crucible having a unique method of stopping Titans besides killing them.

Long-term to permanent immobilization amounts to sealing.

Ah yes, a year old thread that got overturned when Immortality Negation got accepted. Don't even try, this is very well a scummy move to make, since you very well know that this was overturned. Why try to manipulate people by not showing them where it was decided to not be? This thread happened after that one. Seems a bit underhanded lmao

I was unaware of the thread, so I apologize for the misrepresentation and affirm that it was unintended.
Nonetheless the counter argument was meant to highlight that the statement 'it was meant for reason' amounts to an is/ought fallacy, and not to prove my position.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Doom 2016 has a skull of a dead Icon of Sin without a hole and with the modern design.

What is apparent is that the Icon of Sin can be killed normally, and it stays dead without outside intervention for a very long time.

Still a different version of the Icon, I don't see how this hurts my point.

In other words, your interpretation is unable to be compatible with all canon lore, and requires dismissal of statements.
It is only untrue if the Crucible doesn't have a unique way to stop Titans, and this is confirmed with the game director telling us that it immobilizes Titans rather than killing them.

???
I never said Atlans couldn't stop them, and I also said Samuel isn't infallible. This isn't only untrue if the Crucible doesn't have a special way to stop titans anyway, that's just one possible interpretation of it not being true. It's not like The Crucible being special enough to kill Titans only comes from that.

Ok, do you have a statement about the Dreadnought Titan being able to resurrect on its own from that much damage with no Crucible involved?
It does sound like you are arguing the Dreadnought and Icon of Sin should get either Mid to High-Mid passive Regeneration.

You don't need that statement...? They're the only ones you have to keep a Crucible blade in and they die. If that gives them regeneration via resurrection, then so be it. That often comes with Resurrection anyway. This isn't a counter.

Because it is not feasible to remove the blade without a hilt, the injuries are not enough to stop the Dreadnought Titan from moving (he thrashes around as the blue energy engulfs him), and the glowing blue energy implies it.

So the Slayer just couldn't kill the Dreadnaught? He was too weak, even when he was strong enough to demolish the Icon of Sin? That makes literally no sense. The Dreadnaught has no feats of being strong enough to fight the Slayer, and the Icon is referred to as the greatest in Hell's armies, which covers the Dreadnaught. The Slayer demolished both of them, and based on the cutscene after the Icon fight, with barely any damage. If the Icon does not resurrect, then Paralysis is entirely useless as the Slayer could have just killed them.

And the section right after, explains how the weapons were made and their nature, which is based on Wraith and their magic/energy.

Sorry but you are being confused about the lore. Before encountering demons the Night Sentinels used Wraith/Sentinel Energy (which is blue in color) taken directly from Wraiths. After Hell invaded, the priests mixed Wraith Energy + Hell Energy to produce the more potent fuel of Argent Energy.
This is why Doom 2016 has the captured Wraiths stationed in the Well where Hell is producing Argent.
In the flashback where Doomguy is first brought into Argent D'Nur, you can see blue energy spears.

I do love how none of this disproves what I said, and just proves at a later point they have Wraith energy and create Argent.

The terminology used is reportedly slay and stop Titans. When asked whether the Crucible kills or immobilizes Titans, the game director himself said that it immobilizes them, so we don't need to speculate.
The Slayer's Crucible is special with the only one being able to activate and use it being the prophesized Slayer. It is not something that can be mass produced.

"stop" is never used, so no. The game director is WoG, and death of the author very much so still exists. This point is one of your old points again.

So what stops the Sentinels from just making other paralyzing weapons? Hell, we know Earth can do it with the plasma rifle. The simplest explanation is that the Crucible has enough raw strength to kill Titans as compared to other traditional energy weapons. It being raw strength can explain why Atlans are able to kill Titans via strength.

The term used is powerful, not strong. Secondly, Being stronger either refers to special ability or physical power. We are told from the game director/writer that there is no substantial difference in physical power, in other words we turn to special ability.

You don't even need that statement to say special ability? I don't understand this black and white fallacy with the word for powerful here. It doesn't just have to be one or the other, since it's a specifically powerful weapon that can kill any titan, but also has some power that keeps the Dreadnaught and Icon from coming back to life. Unless you are implying the Slayer can't kill the Icon and the Dreadnaught.

Excessive physical power doesn't appear to be relevant at all to begin with.
Let's say that there is a durability-negating laser sword that has regular sword size. Do you agree that it is inefficient for killing Titans compared to Atlans? If not, can you explain how it is more efficient?

"Dura negging" and "having that much power" aren't the same. Both versions of the Crucible have always been acknowledged to be very powerful, and even used as massive energy sources at times. If they were equal to any other energy weapon, then there's literally no point to them being powerful.

I'll ask you to demonstrate that the statement is completely and irreconcilably inconsistent before you dismiss a source we use for much of Doom Slayer's scaling.

It was already demonstrated quite a few times, especially in previous threads where you debated me on the topic and had your argument revolve around this one statement.

So you are denying that you said that we should dismiss Samuel's statement because it is unreliable, and saying that we should not dismiss it?

I am saying we SHOULD dismiss it. You are the one who acknowledges it as true in your argument but also says the Atlans and the Slayer can kill Titans without it.

And you agree with the second point that the Crucible stops Titans without killing them?

No? I agree that after the Slayer kills them, then the Crucible being left in their body keeps them dead. What we are debating is what that power is, not whether or not these 2 resurrect because them not resurrecting makes less sense.

I am genuinely confused by what you wrote. Titans being killed without the Crucible is something I've been saying from the beginning, and this is consistent with the Crucible having a unique method of stopping Titans besides killing them.

Long-term to permanent immobilization amounts to sealing.

Paralyzing something for an extremely long time is not sealing, in any way. Sealing is still entirely unsupported and you keep dancing around that by saying "well it works as an explanation" which isn"t how burden of proof works. You need to support it, not just add it on and say "yeah this works because it's a possible explanation" without evidence.

Either way, my interpretation still works with this. The special way it can keep titans down after killing them because it's strong enough to is to keep it dead. The only time this is needed is against 2 special titans that the Slayer has the ability to kill, but has to keep the blade in them anyway.

I was unaware of the thread, so I apologize for the misrepresentation and affirm that it was unintended.
Nonetheless the counter argument was meant to highlight that the statement 'it was meant for reason' amounts to an is/ought fallacy, and not to prove my position.

You were a part of this thread. You mentioned this thread happening in the Doom discussion thread while creating this thread. I find it extremely hard to believe that you were entirely unaware of this thread, given what I provided in the RvR thread. You still got a warning from DDM to not just use old arguments and call them unaddressed when you know very well we have debated this before.

Hell, you even put "a small steel-barrelled CRT of vengeance" at the top. You know very well why you did that, as i'm the only one you have conflict with regarding any powers here, which is Immortality Negation/Paralysis Inducement.

At the end of the day, till you prove Sealing has any basis, you can't pass this through. You put sealing because sealing has to be there to make Paralysis work, not because it was backed up in any way. The rest of this debate is pointless, I don't even need to disprove sealing since you haven't proven it. Support Sealing without saying "well it works as an explanation" because that isn't fulfilling your burden of proof, or take the L on this one.

 

[Shmooply]

I've been ignoring this CRT for quite some time now. I'll give input at a later time, for now I'm just following.

 

[Shmooply]

Alright, I've the time to contribute to this thread.

(Immune to Argent waves used by the Summoner to mutate humans through genetic coding)

(Immune to the toxic atmosphere created by Hellgrowth, causing the atmosphere to contains bio-contagions and a multitude of organic hazards. Able to survive within the Blood Swamps which are described as a festering bog of disease)

This I agree with (and the other resistance stuff Gews mentioned)

(Seen retrieving and storing items and weapons within cutscenes with no visible storage space on his person)

Should be added to his classic key, otherwise fine as well.

(Able to empower the weapons he is carrying. Was able to damage Titans using guns despite Titans being stated to invincible and indestructible against conventional weapons used by the ARC and the Night Sentinels. Attempted to kill Davoth after his physical form is restored using his Super Shotgun)

The "2-A character who uses tier 8 weapons" meme can finally die, agreed.

mmm also Doomguy needs hacking through VEGA

Surprised he doesn't have it in his 2016 or Eternal keys already, agree as well.

(Titans stabbed with the Crucible remain immobilized and unable to resurrect or regenerate as long as their body is pierced by the Crucible's detachable blade)

I am never touching this argument, ever. The "should the crucible have immortality negation or paralysis inducement" argument has existed ever since DOOM Eternal dropped, and people have gotten into too much pretty drama because of this, so just count me as neutral.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Bump

 

[Axxtentacle]

Bump

 

[VegetaFan756]

Can’t the crucible be both things?

 

[Axxtentacle]

It could be, but having both powers would make one of them pointless since either would do the job. Either way, this proposal is replacing Immortality Negation again.

 

[VegetaFan756]

It seems to me that since the game says that it won’t resurrect, it seems like Immortality Negation since it is dead.

 

[Axxtentacle]

PI + sealing could work, but Sealing has no backing other than "it would work as an explanation" which is why it shouldn't be accepted. PI relies on sealing as well.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Bump