Small downgrade for PoE

[Ywlrvl]

Most of the PoE characters should actually be (questionably) High(?) 3-A, more likely than not 4-A, and definitely not Low 2-C. A bit of an oversight on my part when making the characters.

I'm fairly sure I can't just go ahead and downgrade three profiles at once with such a massive change, so I made this.

This is mostly due to the fact that while the Atlas of Worlds does have "infinite" size lore statements, none of the characters have actually shown the ability to create/affect timelines (and by definition a set of uncountably infinite three-dimensional structures). Most of the scans are already located on the profiles, so this is rather self-explanatory, and only requires a few people to comment whether this would make sense or not.

Thoughts?

Scans & Changes discussed so far: (Updated 8/14)
The Shaper
Current CRT Consensus: 4-A, possibly High 3-A
Entities that scale to him: The Exile (Defeats the Shaper and the Elder), The Elder (Overpowers the Shaper to the point where the Shaper admits he "stands no chance whatsover")

• The Official Path of Exile Wiki says the Shaper is the Creator of the Atlas
• The Shaper personally designed each world within the Atlas
• Master Cartographer Zana says the Atlas of Worlds contains "limitless worlds, space, and resources"

The Maven
Current CRT Consensus: High 3-A, possibly Low 2-C
Entities that scale to her: The Exile (Video evidence here. Managed to "defeat" her in battle. Harmed her to the point where she screamed out in pain and had to retreat. The Envoy, her Guardian, acknowledges the Exile's power)

• The Maven is a participant of the Struggle, an interdimensional war for control over the Atlas between cosmic entities like the Maven. Were these cosmic entities to battle directly, it would rend the cosmos asunder.
  • It is for this reason that these Gods use "Champions" (The Exile being the Champion of the Maven) to conduct proxy-wars with each other.
• The developers of Path of Exile (GGG) state that should the larger cosmic entities like the Maven battle directly, reality itself will rupture.

The Exile scales to both characters, and as such will receive an update to their keys:
(Example):

Keys: Pre-Ascension / Beginning of Game | First to Second Ascensions / Midgame | Third Ascension to Fourth Ascensions / Lategame | Post-Maven / Endgame

Tier: 10-B | 5-A | At least 4-A, possibly High 3-A | High 3-A, possibly Low 2-C

Attack Potency: Human level (Struggles to defeat zombies in combat) | Large Planet level (Defeated Solaris and Lunaris in combat, who greatly accelerated the rotation of the world) | At least Multi-Solar System level (Defeated the Elder and Shaper in combat, the latter being able to create realms with countless stars), possibly High Universe level (The Shaper is the Creator of the infinite Atlas of Worlds, which contains limitless worlds, resources, and space, however, it is unknown what timeframe this occurred in) | Large Universe level, possibly Universe level+ (Harmed the Maven in combat, who can rip the cosmos asunder and rupture realities)

The Elder will also receive a tiering similar to that of the Shaper due to his scaling.

Misc. changes that are not so important:

• All of the PoE characters are Subsonic currently due to feats of dodging arrows, but due to the Spell Avoidance and Evasion mechanics, which grant an X% chance of avoiding/evading sources of incoming damage, in-game characters can reliably dodge lightning spells and explosions, which would imply an upgrade to Massively Hypersonic+

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Idk PoE very well, but this downgrade doesn't seem very well grounded? The statements of tearing reality asunder and creating entire realms are typically good enough, especially since the latter already has implications of infinite size.

EDIT: I should clarify, making universes from scratch requires the creation of a time axis; If the whole realm creation thing is valid, I see no reason why it wouldn't qualify as low 2-C (the only exception being if those realms lack time, or are part of a larger space-time).

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Didn’t know POE had profiles (I have over 4000 hours lol). You want to downgrade them from Tier 2? If I’m understanding correctly.

 

[Ywlrvl]

EDIT: I should clarify, making universes from scratch requires the creation of a time axis; If the whole realm creation thing is valid, I see no reason why it wouldn't qualify as low 2-C (the only exception being if those realms lack time, or are part of a larger space-time).

Even I'm unsure of where I'm trying to take this, I mostly made this post out of uncertainty on my part, and wanted some opinions from people.

The Shaper is explicitly the Creator of the Atlas of Worlds, yes, both in-lore, and is stated as such on the official PoE wiki. From current lore, we know that the Atlas of Worlds is supposedly infinite according to Zana, and we also know that each World within the Atlas is capable of containing a starry sky, implying they are realms in the literal sense.

Whether or not the Atlas of Worlds are part of a larger space-time or not... It's not exactly clear. The two most concrete sources we have are the Book of Memories, which was written by the Shaper himself, and the other source being Zana, who is the Shaper's daughter and a "Master Cartographer". One calls them literal "worlds", the other implies they are somehow linked to the main universe in some way or another, which would imply they're not seperate timelines. We know for a fact that the Worlds are physical spaces, as Zana herself talks about exploiting the Atlas for its resources to bring back to Wraeclast.

The Maven likely stays at Low 2-C, as numerous characters (and the developer blog) state that the only reason she doesn't directly fight with the other "Gods" (Beings like the Tangle or the Cleansing Fire) is because their fight would rip reality asunder, which is why they do proxy-battles with their Champions (The Exile being hers).

What I'm really in need of opinions for is the Shaper and Elder.

 

[Ywlrvl]

Didn’t know POE had profiles (I have over 4000 hours lol). You want to downgrade them from Tier 2? If I’m understanding correctly.

Mostly just the Elder (and possibly the Exile) from Tier 2, although I'm not certain of it. The Maven likely is completely fine as she is.

Also, damn, you've played a lot, nice. I'm guessing you've been playing since the beta?

Edit: I should also bring up that I forgot lightning spells exist in-game, and you can dodge them, which, if treated like actual lightning, could massively buff Speed ratings for all the characters. Might be better for a different CRT though?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Mostly just the Elder (and possibly the Exile) from Tier 2, although I'm not certain of it. The Maven likely is completely fine as she is.

Yeah that makes sense. Elder and The Exile are both respectively champions of one of the main gods. If I recall if not for Maven making us her champion they wouldn’t even have noticed our existence lol. Although the exile can pacify the The Maven.

Also, damn, you've played a lot, nice. I'm guessing you've been playing since the beta?

Synthesis actually haha

Edit: I should also bring up that I forgot lightning spells exist in-game, and you can dodge them, which, if treated like actual lightning, could massively buff Speed ratings for all the characters. Might be better for a different CRT though?

Yeah another CRT

 

[Shmooply]

Didn't even know this thread existed, following.
As for the AP stuff, I think it'd make more sense for them to be listed as High 3-A, possibly Low 2-C. High 3-A because we already have enough proof of that, but possibly Low 2-C because of the "the entirety of reality would fall apart" statement.

 

[Ywlrvl]

Didn't even know this thread existed, following.
As for the AP stuff, I think it'd make more sense for them to be listed as High 3-A, possibly Low 2-C. High 3-A because we already have enough proof of that, but possibly Low 2-C because of the "the entirety of reality would fall apart" statement.

That's a good idea. Going off of what Sigurd said, this would likely only apply to the Exile due to being able to "harm"/pacify the Maven, and the Maven as she's the only character with the "reality ripping" statements.

The Elder is the Champion of the Decay, and undoubtedly scales to the Exile, but likely not entirely to the Maven, as I misinterpreted a few things. As shown here:
The Envoy's Dialogue

It lurched across these places with a hunger insatiable. It craved events past and prevented events passing. A mind like yours, so full of ideas and memories that flutter and swirl around you like smoke, would have been an irresistible temptation.
It went by a great many names. The Unraveller. The Child of Decay. The echoing whispers of history here give a different name. The Elder.

It served greater forces, as I do. Those forces are still at work, but the servant is gone, the home left vacant. For now.

I misinterpreted the quote about the Elder's presence staving off the Gods — it's actually about the Decay not having a Champion anymore (and as such being removed from the Struggle for the Atlas), not due to the Elder's presence himself. Also, the Envoy himself states this:

For an eternity, the darkness swelled within a ceaseless churn of its feeding, and then... silence. Such silence is deafening to those who listen for it. The abyss cast its gaze upon its source. The first lurching movement of boundaries drawn long before the dawn. A claimant has arrived. You may know who. You wish to know why.

The Maven seeks new conflict. Bored, she is, with the realm she has given. She is not the only one. The silence is deafening to all.

You fear The Maven. You fear she is The Elder, returned and emboldened. She is, and she is not.

The Maven serves not The Decay. She serves only her own amusement, passing eternity with an endless string of meaningless struggles.

She is not The Elder, but you are right to fear her.

Would this imply that the Elder scales lower? Currently the hierarchy appears to me to be the following:

T1 - The Gods: High 3-A, possibly Low 2-C (Stated that if any of these guys fight directly reality would be ripped asunder)

• The Tangle
• The Decay
• The Maven
• The Cleansing Fire

T2: High 3-A, possibly Low 2-C

• The Exile (Can harm the Maven to the point where she screams out in pain)
• Sirus the Awakener of Worlds

T3: High 3-A (Being able to affect large portions of the Atlas, or scaling to said beings)

• The Shaper
• The various Champions (The Searing Exarch, the Eater of Worlds, the Elder, etc.)

What do you guys think?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I guess H3-A, possibly low 2-C works given what I've read.

 

[Ywlrvl]

Hm... I haven't done a CRT in a few years, do you typically need staff input to conclude it? Looks like most of us here agree on H3-A, possibly Low 2-C.

I'm still a bit iffy on assigning Low 2-C to the Elder, but the changes discussed here so far seem to be good.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

We need staff support. Also what is the general size of each alternate world within the atlas?

Elder should probably scale around Shaper considering they were mortal enemies that fought quite a bit.

For Sirus I know he and his party conquered The Atlas and pretty much did everything we did so he should scale to Shaper/Elder.

 

[Ywlrvl]

We need staff support.

Makes sense. Do we just wait until staff arrives?

Also what is the general size of each alternate world within the atlas?

Zana says the Atlas in its entirety is infinite and contains limitless worlds in lore, but as for each individual World within the Atlas, the most we have to go off of is the few Worlds that show the backdrop which contains a starry background, which is at least a 4-A structure. In other Worlds shadows also continue to exist, implying the Sun is still present, which would be bare bones 4-B.

Elder should probably scale around Shaper considering they were mortal enemies that fought quite a bit.

Agreed.

For Sirus I know he and his party conquered The Atlas and pretty much did everything we did so he should scale to Shaper/Elder.

Also agreed.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Makes sense. Do we just wait until staff arrives?

You will probably need to tag them.

Zana says the Atlas in its entirety is infinite and contains limitless worlds in lore, but as for each individual World within the Atlas, the most we have to go off of is the few Worlds that show the backdrop which contains a starry background, which is at least a 4-A structure. In other Worlds shadows also continue to exist, implying the Sun is still present, which would be bare bones 4-B.

Ok this helps. What do you think about scaling Elder and Shaper to Shapers Realm specifically. I honestly don’t see how they can be 3-A or tier 2?

I think 4-A can be for Shaper and Elder. Sirus can scale to this for defeating Elder with his party.

Towards the Maven arc there is a massive shift in power. She watches us kill these guys and even has us capture them for her crucible to fight all of them at once. Exile is pretty op at this point since they can fight Shaper, Elder, Chayula, Venarius, and Atizri all at once for fun.

 

[Ywlrvl]

Ok this helps. What do you think about scaling Elder and Shaper to Shapers Realm specifically. I honestly don’t see how they can be 3-A or tier 2?

I mostly was under the assumption that since the Shaper is stated to be explicitly the Creator of the entire Atlas of Worlds on his official wiki page, and is also stated by Zana to have personally designed each world, which by another of her statements contains limitless worlds, space, and resources, the Shaper should be bare bones High 3-A for creating limitless 3D space, but not tier Low 2-C, which would be reserved for the Maven and her peers.

A large issue with this statement, though, is that in-game there are only 150+ maps that are shown to exist in the Atlas. You could make the argument that this is nothing more than game mechanics, however, as it's not exactly technically plausible for GGG to develop an infinite Atlas.

I think 4-A can be for Shaper and Elder. Sirus can scale to this for defeating Elder with his party.

Indeed, this was a route I had in mind in my original post, and is something I would be willing to agree with. The issue is how you treat the Atlas. What do you think? How should we treat the Atlas?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Indeed, this was a route I had in mind in my original post, and is something I would be willing to agree with. The issue is how you treat the Atlas. What do you think? How should we treat the Atlas?

I have no idea how to treat it honestly. It’s been through so many different iterations lol. Like remember when it was split up into regions? But if Shaper did create each world individually I guess? But now it makes the feat something that takes place over an unknown period of time. So maybe at least 4-A with a possibly High 3-A due to much of creation of the Atlas itself being a mystery.

 

[Ywlrvl]

But now it makes the feat something that takes place over an unknown period of time. So maybe at least 4-A with a possibly High 3-A due to much of creation of the Atlas itself being a mystery.

This is actually a pretty good idea. And from what I'm picking up it seems like you desire a separate key to differentiate the pre-Maven and post-Maven arcs.

Piecing together all of the information from this thread's discussions, this seems to be the eventual end result as of now for the Exile:

Keys: Pre-Ascension / Beginning of Game | First to Second Ascensions / Midgame | Third Ascension to Fourth Ascensions / Lategame | Post-Maven / Endgame

Tier: 10-B | 5-A | At least 4-A, possibly High 3-A | High 3-A, possibly Low 2-C

Attack Potency: Human level (Struggles to defeat zombies in combat) | Large Planet level (Defeated Solaris and Lunaris in combat, who greatly accelerated the rotation of the world) | At least Multi-Solar System level (Defeated the Elder and Shaper in combat, the latter being able to create realms with countless stars), possibly High Universe level (The Shaper is the Creator of the infinite Atlas of Worlds, which contains limitless worlds, resources, and space, however, it is unknown what timeframe this occurred in) | Large Universe level, possibly Universe level+ (Harmed the Maven in combat, who can rip the cosmos asunder and rupture realities)

All of the changes we have discussed should be reflected here. What does everybody think?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Agreed

 

[Ywlrvl]

Very well. I'll see what I can do about getting mods in.

 

[Ywlrvl]

Judging off of numerous message walls from both content & discussion mods, it seems as if the vast majority don't bother with verses they aren't familiar with. Ergo, this thread might enter an infinite death-bump loop. I vaguely remember a few years back that CRTs could go through without staff (as long as a lot of members agreed), is that rule new?

Rather sad state of affairs. I will be periodically bumping for a few days and will wait for somebody to come along, so you guys might want to unfollow in the mean time, as most things seem settled for now, and is merely awaiting staff input.

 

[Ywlrvl]

Bump

 

[Ywlrvl]

Bump

 

[Ywlrvl]

Bump

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Well, could you add the scan that proves this in the OP to be a little more complete, bro?

 

[Ywlrvl]

Bump.

 

[Ywlrvl]

Bump

 

[Ywlrvl]

B

 

[Ywlrvl]

ump

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Did you try directly messaging a thread discussion mod? You can try Antvasima too.

 

[Ywlrvl]

Did you try directly messaging a thread discussion mod? You can try Antvasima too.

I messaged one or two (can't remember) a while back but didn't continue since I saw a lot of "I won't respond to things I'm unfamiliar with" on their message walls. I'll start looking through the staff list to try again.