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Sleight of Hand Page

Arkenis

Arkenis

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Got permission from Mr. Bambu

So I'd like to propose we add a Sleight of Hand page. It's usefulness lies in separating characters who might have great hand precision/hand movements but not oriented around Martial Arts or say Superhuman Precision which tackle their own things beyond what Sleight of Hand would tackle. I'll show a couple of examples for what can be classified as such.

Dexterous: Ninjas from Naruto have great hand movements such as Itachi which can surprise people he's able to get hand signs off right in front of them in the midst of combat. Sasuke's able to pin down Bee's sword swing by putting his sword through the sword's hole and Bee's sword handling can barely be read by Sasuke's sharingan. Isaac Netero can keep a ball away from Gon and Killua for hours.

Weapons Operator: Black Widow and Yelena can switch one another's guns quickly. Sakamoto can assemble a pistol within seconds.

Pick-Pocketers: Catwoman can pickpocket guards while being stealthy. Gintoki out pickpockets a pickpocketer.


Agree: DarkDragonMedeus, Duedate8898, FinePoint (prefers title Enhanced Dexterity)
Disagree: Agnaa
 
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Dungeons and Dragons ability?

Anyway, I got not problems with the addition; though some would argue Pick-Pocketing is a sub-category of Stealth Mastery. I'd also add lockpicking as an example?
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Dungeons and Dragons ability?

Anyway, I got not problems with the addition; though some would argue Pick-Pocketing is a sub-category of Stealth Mastery. I'd also add lockpicking as an example?
Click to expand...
I think thats less sleight of hand and more knowledge based. I seen a thievery thread and that probably fits better as that.
 
As I said when you asked me about this on my page, I support this.
 
Wouldn't all of these things already fall under Stealth Mastery or Weapons Mastery?
 
Not really. Stealth Mastery as it is currently defined is really exclusive towards being unnoticed. None of the possible uses appear to overlap with Sleight of Hand nor does any profile which would benefit from Sleight of Hand currently note Sleight of Hand abilities under stealth mastery.

Weapon's Mastery purely covers ranged weaponry in terms of accuracy and not in handling of guns and I don't believe profiles with the power listed meaningfully list what sleight of hand encompasses in terms of their weapon mastery.
 
Duedate8898 said:
Not really. Stealth Mastery as it is currently defined is really exclusive towards being unnoticed. None of the possible uses appear to overlap with Sleight of Hand nor does any profile which would benefit from Sleight of Hand currently note Sleight of Hand abilities under stealth mastery.

Weapon's Mastery purely covers ranged weaponry in terms of accuracy and not in handling of guns and I don't believe profiles with the power listed meaningfully list what sleight of hand encompasses in terms of their weapon mastery.
Click to expand...
Then I would propose expanding Stealth Mastery to include this (and Weapons Mastery to mention reloading faster), rather than making it its own page.
 
FinePoint said:
Wouldn't all of these things already fall under Stealth Mastery or Weapons Mastery?
Click to expand...
Stealth Mastery is more for a general description of being undetected while sleight of hand is less about stealth and a focus on skill with one's hands. I had noticed at first that maybe the type dexterous seemed stealthy but then I decided sleight of hand didn't have to be solely about unnoticed hand movements and more to do with people good with their hand movements. Which led me to making weapons operator since sleight of hand was a perk in fps games.
 
Arkenis said:
Stealth Mastery is more for a general description of being undetected while sleight of hand is less about stealth and a focus on skill with one's hands. I had noticed at first that maybe the type dexterous seemed stealthy but then I decided sleight of hand didn't have to be solely about unnoticed hand movements and more to do with people good with their hand movements. Which led me to making weapons operator since sleight of hand was a perk in fps games.
Click to expand...
I think if we insist on separating them then "Enhanced Dexterity" makes more sense as a name and is more generally applicable.

"Sleight of Hand" has very strong connotations with distraction and deception, which I think makes it a poor choice of words when Stealth Mastery exists.

Then we could include any feat which is far above the capabilities of the average person but not ridiculous enough for Superhuman Precision.
 
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DarkDragonMedeus said:
Dungeons and Dragons ability?

Anyway, I got not problems with the addition; though some would argue Pick-Pocketing is a sub-category of Stealth Mastery. I'd also add lockpicking as an example?
Click to expand...
Duedate8898 said:
Not really. Stealth Mastery as it is currently defined is really exclusive towards being unnoticed. None of the possible uses appear to overlap with Sleight of Hand nor does any profile which would benefit from Sleight of Hand currently note Sleight of Hand abilities under stealth mastery.

Weapon's Mastery purely covers ranged weaponry in terms of accuracy and not in handling of guns and I don't believe profiles with the power listed meaningfully list what sleight of hand encompasses in terms of their weapon mastery.
Click to expand...
FinePoint said:
I think if we insist on separating them then "Enhanced Dexterity" makes more sense as a name and is more generally applicable.

"Sleight of Hand" has very strong connotations with distraction and deception, which I think makes it a poor choice of words when Stealth Mastery exists.

Then we could include any feat which is far above the capabilities of the average person but not ridiculous enough for Superhuman Precision.
Click to expand...
With FinePoints suggestion, two mods and a SuperAdmin, am I fine to make the page?
 
FinePoint said:
Well, before anything I suppose we should see if those two prefer my proposal for the name.
@Duedate8898 @DarkDragonMedeus
Click to expand...
I mentioned that I already agreed Pick pocketing could be a sub category of stealth mastery, but mentioned lockpicking is an example of something that would separate sleight of hand from stealth mastery.
 
I think Sleight of Hand has a nice ring to it but honestly don't care for the title too much as long the power itself doesn't become too broad
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I mentioned that I already agreed Pick pocketing could be a sub category of stealth mastery, but mentioned lockpicking is an example of something that would separate sleight of hand from stealth mastery.
Click to expand...
That makes sense, but specifically I'm asking if you prefer the name "Enhanced Dexterity" since it has less direct connotation with stealth and deception.
 
As I mentioned in a thread a few months back:
Agnaa said:
I think the best angle is the sleight of hand one, since that truly isn't encompassed by other pages.

I'd be fine with making a page like "Deceptive Movements" which includes both feints and sleight of hand. Ways of deceiving people's senses that aren't literal illusions.
Click to expand...
So your page includes things I wouldn't have included, like complex hand movements and intricate operation/disassembly of weapons. And also doesn't include some things I would've liked to be included, like feints.

Somewhat adjacent, "Enhanced Dexterity" seems weird as a general category. That's either skill or speed. We already have a statistic for speed, and we already have a statistic for skill (intelligence).

For now consider me a disagree. Some of the wording/headers on the page are quite clunky/strange, reaching a crescendo with "General Dexterous". Even without those, the grouping is very ehhhh for me. A general improvement of the page would, at best, move me to neutral.
 
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Agnaa said:
As I mentioned in a thread a few months back:

So your page includes things I wouldn't have included, like complex hand movements and intricate operation/disassembly of weapons. And also doesn't include some things I would've linked to be included, like feints.

Somewhat adjacent, "Enhanced Dexterity" seems weird as a general category. That's either skill or speed. We already have a statistic for speed, and we already have a statistic for skill (intelligence).

For now consider me a disagree. Some of the wording/headers on the page are quite clunky/strange, reaching a crescendo with "General Dexterous". Even without those, the grouping is very ehhhh for me. A general improvement of the page would, at best, move me to neutral.
Click to expand...
Feints would fall under general dexterity, like Zekka's case he slips in the jab due to Sechs focusing on his other fist. Performing intricate actions requires both skill and speed, which makes it distinct from a character simply punching fast. For example, Taro assembling a gun, it's a precise and agile feat. I agree that "General Dexterous" sounds a bit awkward; I previously had it listed as "Maneuvers" to emphasize bodily movements involving an element of deception.
 
Before, I would have signed off on the OP (post Fine Point revision), even though I prefer the name Sleight of Hand. But I do think Agnaa's more specifically-focused idea is better, I don't like the idea of classifying doing dagger tricks in the same category as making gang signs (I recognize this is an over simplification but you get the idea). Dexterity seems too wide a thing to classify here, I think I would also prefer something less general.
 
For actions such as Pick Pocketing, enhanced dexterity combined with stealth mastery seems to cover abilities like that. So I also agree with Agnaa there. Though, lock picking seems to be the only thing that doesn't look like it lines up with abilities we already have pages for.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
For actions such as Pick Pocketing, enhanced dexterity combined with stealth mastery seems to cover abilities like that. So I also agree with Agnaa there. Though, lock picking seems to be the only thing that doesn't look like it lines up with abilities we already have pages for.
Click to expand...
Well I think lock-picking as a skill could just be included in intelligence.

Overall, I'm fine with the page being created, but to be clear, my original position was that it was probably redundant.
 
I'm for this too. I mean, there's the part where stage magicians do sleight of hand tricks as well, and they do that stuff for everyone to see.
 
@Agnaa

Do you have any suggestions for how this page might turn acceptable to add? 🙏
 
I'd, personally, want a more cohesive ability. "Deceptive Movements" is a clunky and arbitrary name, but something like that would be what I prefer. And I'm sure there'd be room for middleground if other proposals were thrown out.

If the current grouping is kept, I'd like the proposed Sleight of Hand page to receive cleanup in its grammar and wording.
 
I am fine with calling it "Deceptive Movements" instead. 🙏
 
I've updated the categories descriptions and changed the name to Deceptive Movements. I'm still unsure for the first type if Sleight of Hand is a decent title or if I need better examples.
 
I wouldn't include high-level weapons operation under this page, and I would include faints.

Also, limitations and examples would need to be reworked in accordance with the updates.
 
I've removed the weapons operator and adjusted the limitations. Is there more examples anyone can think of for the types I may be forgetting?
 
I can't think of any great ones.

Maybe shadow clone-type things done through pure movement (e.g. Medaka Kurokami) could land here? But that does feel like a bit of a reach.
 
The examples seem fine enough.
 
I don't like the name but I dislike having long drawn out conversations about the name of something. For the sake of progress I'll accept it.

Otherwise the page looks good to publish but we really ought to try for a more diverse cast of users, every single one of these guys is weebshit (actually, I tell a lie, Catwoman alone was worthy of inclusion, but I now notice "Ninjas in Naruto" as a whole are mentioned twice, which I think balances out). There are tons of thieves and magicians and otherwise notable users, it doesn't have to be done in this CRT but I mention it as a downside of the page as it is currently.

Other than that it looks good, I sign off on it. I'll probably just post it to that thread Crab made regarding diversification of examples, eons ago.
 
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Mr. Bambu said:
I don't like the name but I dislike having long drawn out conversations about the name of something. For the sake of progress I'll accept it.
Click to expand...
I know the name is terrible, but it's the only idea I have. I will rapidly accept other suggestions.
 
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