Skill VS: Hayato vs Sasaki.

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Sasaki at no point failed against either one of those attack's, he deflected or weaved through all of them. You can't simply give Hayato's Sasaki's feats whenever Sasaki's feats of dealing with massive amounts of AoE are better than Hayato's.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

When someone invades your territory in Kenichi it looks like this.

If they don't work try this.

And then again, he filled the stadium, but Sasaki was more than fast enough to deal with them all.

 

[BakiHanma18]

To be fair, while at one point Sasaki's only option became deflecting, he did show the capacity to outright dodge earlier on when he was in a better position https://i.imgur.com/HXfV0lR.png

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

-snip-

No... they shut up because he's the strongest and they know it, not because he can beat them all. Not to mention all your examples don't work.

Shigure only held of those 7 because she was using her ultimate skill, the greatest of all her skills, which is not only especially good against multiple opponents, it would have been downright useless if the unarmed division was the one she was facing. She also had a weapon, the 2 arrows, and never played around with those 3, nothing even close, she's obviously trying her damnest and couldn't keep it up for long. Sakaki also "trashes" those Knights, yet is held back by them until Hongo buys him enough time.

Your examples really don't help me see how Hayato could beat all of Ryouzanpako on his own, which I still say he couldn't do.

As for the dodging things, the higher levels of Ryuusui Seikuken don't make you better at dodging, Kenichi's version is still much less powerful as he focuses on someone's breath and disturbing that disturbs the technique, as seeing with Miu when she started getting violent, and any disruption in mood or mind state heavily affects Ryuusui, not to mention it has never seen thousands of moves ahead. Shou also deals with it after seeing it for the first time without much issue.

I really don't like how much context you leave out when saying these things. Kenichi never casually did this. Even worse, Kenichi was ovbviously below Shou before he used it, yet he wasn't getting blitzhed, that is ******* bullshit. You even see Shou compliment his defense blocking his strikes before using something similar to his "Strongest Combo".

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Impressive but that still doesn't stack up to the sheer amount of AoE that Poseidon displayed and that Sasaki deflected. Poseidon's moves formed massive domes ( and I mean absolutely massive, that area they're fighting in is filled with every human that's ever lived and every god, goddess and god citizen from every mythology.) that stadium is gigantic and Poseidon was able to fill a decent chunk of it while attacking Sasaki. Nothing you've posted has, nor will it top Poseidon's AoE.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yes fair enough, though combined with the 10x amp. He would be capable of performing a similar technique. While i will agree to still giving Sasaki an advantage, the advantage is not that big.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Next point then?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

And for the record, what Kenichi does is not actually on the same level of ability.

Not only can he react to Shou as I mentioned even if he was outstripepd, unlike Sasaki who couldn't even see Poseidon's thrusts before he got serious, Shou adapted to it and circumvented it soon after, which Poseidon never did after Sasaki's reading reached the maximum level despite increasing his strength and speed 2 times above when Sasaki already couldn't see a thing. Poseidon had shown before that he could predict on his own what sort of predictions Sasaki was doing and even feinted him, unlike Shou, yet was completely helpless once Thousand Image Defense was taken to it's uppermost limit.

And I say this knowing the kind of stuff Kenichi pulls against Satomi Kajima at the end of the series with the 3rd level of Ryusui Seikuken.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Similar to last point, but this feat is more so to do with Sasaki's ability not only to dodge attacks faster than himself, but to block (not dodge) a danmaku-Style attack that blitzes him for a short time

https://i.imgur.com/BuTZNiA.png

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Sir

Hayato is massively above Kushinada though, who was wrecking the Ryouzanpaku ppl left and right. The same girl who trashed Kensei and Apachai at the same time and was toying with both Shigure and Sasaki. He is also massively above Kensei, who when in SeiDou trashed 2 of the 9 fists almost instantly.

Yes, her ultimate skill, held back all those 7 people. And she is a weapon based master. Why would you go like "well against opponents she is weaker against she cannot do the same". I am unsure what you mean by "she has those 2 arrows" those are thing she got from her opponent who was attacking her. She hit the arrows mid air, while protecting the phone. And used a single arrow to pin down both the scythe and spear user. Again she was using 1 hand, had to bother protecting the phone, all without a weapon against 3 people (the arrows as i said are things she stole from her opponent not weapons she had).

Sasaki is "held back" cus they didn't die after 1 hit. If it works better there is Hongou insta killing 5 master classes. Since hongou is a bit more "not give a ****" by nature.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Similar to last point, but this feat is more so to do with Sasaki's ability not only to dodge attacks faster than himself, but to block (not dodge) a danmaku-Style attack that blitzes him for a short time
https://i.imgur.com/BuTZNiA.png

Ok but this is the feat we used for the "sasaki takes it".

The one where he dodges 4 attacks is something Kenichi already does. So ugh...skip to the next (already covered this)

 

[BakiHanma18]

Similar to last point, but this feat is more so to do with Sasaki's ability not only to dodge attacks faster than himself, but to block (not dodge) a danmaku-Style attack that blitzes him for a short time
https://i.imgur.com/BuTZNiA.png

Ok but this is the feat we used for the "sasaki takes it".
The one where he dodges 4 attacks is something Kenichi already does. So ugh...skip to the next (already covered this)

Okay, this is the next point

Sasaki's Tsubame Gaeshi, which is a fast attack that Poseidon dodged, but it turns back and cuts again so quickly, it caught even Poseidon off-guard

https://i.imgur.com/fiSe17e.png

 

[Firephoenixearl]

That's just speed.

Speed that further goes on the "he's not that slow if he caught Poseidon off guard with speed".

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Because Poseidon wasn't taking him seriously in the beginning of the fight, later one Poseidon starts turning it into a completely one sided battle of strength and speed. Poseidon's speed was considerably above Sasaki's.

 

[BakiHanma18]

That's just speed.
Speed that further goes on the "he's not that slow if he caught Poseidon off guard with speed".

It's implied that it was the technique that allowed for this, not Sasaki's normal speed

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Because Poseidon wasn't taking him seriously in the beginning of the fight, later one Poseidon starts turning it into a completely one sided battle of strength and speed. Poseidon's speed was considerably above Sasaki's.

Ok but going from "about equal" to "thousands of times faster" seems far too huge of a gap for "not serious to serious".

 

[BakiHanma18]

Because Poseidon wasn't taking him seriously in the beginning of the fight, later one Poseidon starts turning it into a completely one sided battle of strength and speed. Poseidon's speed was considerably above Sasaki's.

Ok but going from "about equal" to "thousands of times faster" seems far too huge of a gap for "not serious to serious".

Just remember that even Hayato can hold himself back to 1/1,000,000, so thousands aren't that big of a leap

 

[Ionliosite]

It literally makes no sense that Sasaki blocked attacks from someone a thuosand of times faster than him, it's like me trying to catch something 1000x faster than me, even if they tell me about it and I can prepare to it, I still won't be capable of catching it due to the massive difference in speed.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Not being serious and holding back are different.

And that's with a statement. You don't just assume that much difference. And there never was that much of a speed difference. Sasaki dodged an attack that Poseidon had started behind his back. The afterimages clearly do not denote speed as it is inconsistent with other times Poseidon attacks. As Sasaki would be an actual statue when Poseidon was behind him. Not beat him at dodging the attack.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

@Sir

Massively above her since... never? Conclusive proof is lacking, which makes this even better. On my side though, I have Mikumo holding off both Sasaki and Shigure casually, and not being even passingly bothered at an attack by Silkwat, the same dude that gave Furinji a hard battle before. And no, he's massively above Ogata, not massively above Sei-Dou Ogata.

Because... she's not... weaker against unarmed masters? I said that the technique is tailor made for multiple opponents, which it is, would be useless if she wasn't fighting armed people, which it would be, and she still lost while trying to hold them back rather than win - and holding someone back is not the same as beating someone. Not only is it bullshit to think she's defenseless without a weapon, she did have something in her hands, only kept this up for a few seconds, and... girl shots at the thing once and scythe dude tries to cut the line once, not much protecting.

 

[BakiHanma18]

It literally makes no sense that Sasaki blocked attacks from someone a thuosand of times faster than him, it's like me trying to catch something 1000x faster than me, even if they tell me about it and I can prepare to it, I still won't be capable of catching it due to the massive difference in speed.

There's a scene similar to that in Baki, where Doppo is so much faster than Baki that he tells him what he's going to do and where he's going to hit him, and Baki still isn't fast enough to move before the hit would've landed. This is different though, as Sasaki isn't just preparing for a move in advanced, he's preparing for every move 1000 moves in advance, so he already knows at what time his body needs to be in a certain position doing what to survive

 

[BakiHanma18]

Not being serious and holding back are different.
And that's with a statement. You don't just assume that much difference. And there never was that much of a speed difference. Sasaki dodged an attack that Poseidon had started behind his back. The afterimages clearly do not denote speed as it is inconsistent with other times Poseidon attacks. As Sasaki would be an actual statue when Poseidon was behind him. Not beat him at dodging the attack.

I do agree that there speed likely isn't that far apart, namely for these reasons (one of which you mentioned)

https://i.imgur.com/WavWSuz.png

https://i.imgur.com/RCaKvRA.png

but Poseidon is at the very least able to use speed to match and even overwhelm in some instances someone who is 1000 steps ahead

 

[BakiHanma18]

What I'm asking about in reference to Tsubame Gaeshi is if Hayato has a skill or skills that allow for him to catch someone exorbitantly faster off-guard

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Nop, the manga makes it clear the speed difference is massive.

Again, Sasaki couldn't see any of his blows before Poseidon even attempted trying to be serious.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Nop, the manga makes it clear the speed difference is massive.
Again, Sasaki couldn't see any of his blows before Poseidon even attempted trying to be serious.

Massive, but maybe not actually thousands of times, right?

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Nobody ever claimed Poseidon was thousands of times faster than Sasaki, however the gap between the speed of the two combatants is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yes but it's not always true. He was taken by surprise by Poseidon moving behind him and dodged the attack even without knowing beforehand. So that just goes more on the fact that the speed difference is not that great and definitely not in the thousands.

@sir

Mikumi is about equal to saiga who stated outright that he was no match for hayato. And hayato was gonna save ken from kensei should anything go wrong he was more than capable of trashing kensei. And unbothered by a kick, she never really tanked that hit, silkwat never wanted to fight her and silkwat is pis more than he is a character for losing to hongou despite mikumi planning to have hayato kill him. Which would have been no problem for someone like her. He's just a ball of PIS, CIS and inconsistency.

She lost cuz she was hit when she guarded kenichi with her body. Kensei himself states that without a weapon she's extremely weak. Nope she didn't, she "got" something in her hands fighting opponents. How many attempts is not the point, she was still guarding it and fending off 3 opponents with 1 hand and she kept it up that much cus she didn't want to fight them she was waiting on the ryouzanpaku masters to come. She had several chances to escape. And she 1 shotted the scythe dude later on when she was serious.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Nobody ever claimed Poseidon was thousands of times faster than Sasaki, however the gap between the speed of the two combatants is absolutely ridiculous.

Yes, I agree with this. It's quite clear that if Sasaki couldn't see at least 1000 steps in advanced, he would have been blitzed and annihilated

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Nop, the manga makes it clear the speed difference is massive.

Again, Sasaki couldn't see any of his blows before Poseidon even attempted trying to be serious.

How come he could dodge an attack from a serious poseidon while being caught off guard and no prep against the next move?

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Sasaki narrowly avoided it and it seems like your forgetting his Thousand Image Defense.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

What I'm asking about in reference to Tsubame Gaeshi is if Hayato has a skill or skills that allow for him to catch someone exorbitantly faster off-guard

He can see the attack trails and predict the moves and use ryusui seikuken to deflect it.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Just letting everyone know, after we finish discussing Tsubame Gaeshi and whatever skill or ability Hayato has that's comparable or better, I'd like to discuss specifically the animal style's application (Hayato's learning from animals is superior, but I'd like to discuss how skilled the combatants are in translating animal movements to human combat and how potent said moves are), and then we can get into the meat of things: Hayato vs Sasaki in a fight of skill

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Sasaki narrowly avoided it and it seems like your forgetting his Thousand Image Defense.

He was caught off guard he didn't expect him to dodge and attack from his blind spot. So no thousand image defense. That clearly was a prediction he didn't make. And you don't narrowly dodge something massively faster in those conditions.

 

[BakiHanma18]

What I'm asking about in reference to Tsubame Gaeshi is if Hayato has a skill or skills that allow for him to catch someone exorbitantly faster off-guard

He can see the attack trails and predict the moves and use ryusui seikuken to deflect it.

That would be a reaction, I was more so looking for an offensive move that essentially amps speed

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

When is it ever shown that she is equal to Saiga...? You keep mentioning all this stuff without anything to back it. And no, a moment of inconsistency doesn't suddenly void a comment from Furinji himself. Not to mention not only did Hayato not know about Ogata having that new technique, whether Ogata was much stronger or a bug to him, Hayato would have gone to save Kenichi.

She was getting hit before, her clothes and armor didn't get trashed with that last hit, she had been accumulating damage. It actually does no matter how you feel about it, defeating an opponent and keeping away on the defensive from one is not the same. The Elder is still not destroying the entire group on his own despite what you are saying.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

<div cla </div> That would be a reaction, I was more so looking for an offensive move that essentially amps speed </div> Well he does have a 10x reaction amp. But the tsubame is not a speed amp. It's just sasakis fastest attack nothing too crazy

 

[BakiHanma18]

True, my apologies. Would Hayato's defense still work considering the 2nd part of the attack aims for the blind spot?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

When is it ever shown that she is equal to Saiga...? You keep mentioning all this stuff without anything to back it. And no, a moment of inconsistency doesn't suddenly void a comment from Furinji himself. Not to mention not only did Hayato not know about Ogata having that new technique, whether Ogata was much stronger or a bug to him, Hayato would have gone to save Kenichi.

She was getting hit before, her clothes and armor didn't get trashed with that last hit, she had been accumulating damage. It actually does no matter how you feel about it, defeating an opponent and keeping away on the defensive from one is not the same. The Elder is still not destroying the entire group on his own despite what you are saying.

Through feats they're comparable, if not saiga being superior for defeating an advanced master class who defeated supermasters easier than mikumi. And wdym "a single moment". His entire fight with akira was inconsistency upon inconsistency to his further statement and even then pls explain how you scale mikumi above silkwat when they're having a chat. Also if you're seriously saying kensei cloud beat hayato, pls drop the topic. Noone could even match hayato which is why they sacrificed ougi to keep him busy and THEN attacked. If it were easy to attack with him around they would have done it long ago.

Yeah so? She was taking 9 opponents alone. That's exponentially harder than taking on an opponent who has all skill feats from those guys. Hayato was the biggest threat to everything that's why the final events happened without him around, there would've been no challenge with him around.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

True, my apologies. Would Hayato's defense still work considering the 2nd part of the attack aims for the blind spot?

Hayato fights people even with both of his eyes closed and seikuken doesn't have blind spots (even the basic seikuken). It senses and counters insinctively to everything that enters his range.

 

[BakiHanma18]

True, my apologies. Would Hayato's defense still work considering the 2nd part of the attack aims for the blind spot?

Hayato fights people even with both of his eyes closed and seikuken doesn't have blind spots (even the basic seikuken). It senses and counters insinctively to everything that enters his range.

So would it be fair to say that Tsubame is soft countered, therefore giving Hayato the win on this point?