Simple Naruto speed upgrade

[Ghostimuscrime]

Yeah it should just scale to their general combat and reaction speeds, Kakashi didn’t use any special jutsu or abilities to move his hands up to block False Darkness at Sub Rel speeds

pretty much

---

since we have 2 mod votes do we wait for another staff? I dont think its neccessary as its merely an approved calc update

 

[MinatoSparkle]

i don't think we'll end up just scaling the calc to shunshin tbh, the arm swing part of the calc is just straight reaction speed and hand movement and has a similar value to the movement speed part of the calc.

they'll float around the same speed regardless so people who can react to Kakashi's movements will probably scale generally.

also, this is just a value-changing thread via an updated calc, not a scaling change thread so everything will be the same but with different values for now.

I think his combat speed there was Raikiri amped but ik people defer to the anime which doesn't have that (though I have my gripes with that). It just doesn't make sense to scale the regular speed of people like Shikamaru and Choji ~10x above the attack they needed to be saved from. Ntm the statements hyping up attacks from characters around this level as being lightning speed (and the statement implying False Darkness is lightning speed also says it's exceedingly difficult to dodge due to its speed despite supposedly being way slower than any relevant P2 characters).

 

[Damage3245]

It just doesn't make sense to scale the regular speed of people like Shikamaru and Choji ~10x above the attack they needed to be saved from.

That is a big concern of mine.

 

[Godernet]

I think his combat speed there was Raikiri amped but ik people defer to the anime which doesn't have that (though I have my gripes with that). It just doesn't make sense to scale the regular speed of people like Shikamaru and Choji ~10x above the attack they needed to be saved from. Ntm the statements hyping up attacks from characters around this level as being lightning speed (and the statement implying False Darkness is lightning speed also says it's exceedingly difficult to dodge due to its speed despite supposedly being way slower than any relevant P2 characters).

I mean you are right he does use Raikiri in the manga, tho I don't think that distinction will stop most of the elite jounin/kage level people from scaling to it tbh

also tbf to Shikamaru and Chouji, they weren't being perception blitzed by the attack or anything, they still made attempts to block FD as it traveled to them, Shikamaru pulling out a scroll he was going to use to block it, Chouji moving his hands up to guard, not to mention none of them really had too much to say in regards to the attacks speed or concern of being able to stop it should it happen again, they seemed far more concerned with the sheer power of their jutsu.

If anything speed related I would say it's more evidence that when it comes to speed, Shinobi have far faster hand movements and reactions than they do travel speed, which they supplement with movement jutsu like Shunshin (with the exception of people like Guy) but that's a topic for a different day.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I mean you are right he does use Raikiri in the manga, tho I don't think that distinction will stop most of the elite jounin/kage level people from scaling to it tbh

Kage level yes

also tbf to Shikamaru and Chouji, they weren't being perception blitzed by the attack and still made movements as FD traveled to them, Shikamaru pulling out a scroll he was going to use to block it, Chouji moving his hands up to guard, not to mention none of them really had too much to say in regards to the attacks speed and were more concerned with their sheer power.

If anything I would say its more evidence that when it comes to speed I feel like Shinobi have far faster hand movements and reactions than they do travel speed, which they supplement with movement jutsu like Shunshin but that's a topic for a different day.

Idk about that, there are plenty of examples of ninja running or jumping away from attacks of opponents comparable to them

 

[Floxy178]

Idk about that, there are plenty of examples of ninja running or jumping away from attacks of opponents comparable to them

Yeah but it shouldn't necessarily apply to everyone. They can have faster travel speed but I don't think them not having it is a contradiction.

Because comparing their movements to FD, it isn't inconsistent at all.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Yeah but it shouldn't necessarily apply to everyone. They can have faster travel speed but I don't think them not having it is a contradiction.

Because comparing their movements to FD, it isn't inconsistent at all.

A vastly different movement to combat speed ratio applying for a few characters for no reason doesn't seem like the best solution

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I think his combat speed there was Raikiri amped but ik people defer to the anime which doesn't have that (though I have my gripes with that). It just doesn't make sense to scale the regular speed of people like Shikamaru and Choji ~10x above the attack they needed to be saved from. Ntm the statements hyping up attacks from characters around this level as being lightning speed (and the statement implying False Darkness is lightning speed also says it's exceedingly difficult to dodge due to its speed despite supposedly being way slower than any relevant P2 characters).

then make a crt to downgrade them, it doesnt have any bearings against Kakashi being that fast


"difficult to dodge" statements are only to hype up and compare against normal people not the characters on screen, Light Fang was called impossible to dodge/evade but the only character it was used against was 2.11x faster than him


and the others already countered the point mentioning how combat speeds dont have caps or anti feats regarding shikamaru and choji so I will not get into that

 

[MinatoSparkle]

then make a crt to downgrade them, it doesnt have any bearings against Kakashi being that fast

This CRT is proposing that all mid tiers gets upgraded to Sub-Rel so it is very relevant to the topic

"difficult to dodge" statements are only to hype up and compare against normal people not the characters on screen, Light Fang was called impossible to dodge/evade but the only character it was used against was 2.11x faster than him

I didn't say it was to hype up its speed compared to the characters related to the scene, but a large majority of the characters covered in the same databook would supposedly scale far above it, which kind of defeats the purpose of such a statement. Shikamaru and Choji are also able to dodge a different elemental attack from Kakuzu (which is not slow, as it intercepts/tags a KM0 Naruto clone), lending credence to the idea that False Darkness is supposed to be an especially fast jutsu.

 

[Testarossa002]

Shikamaru and Choji (who are baseline jonin level at best) have no business scaling to a feat done by Kakashi (who's like low kage).
Which is why I said applying the changes should be on hold for now until a proper revision is done.
I'm working on getting some more calcs (which are in the lightning timing range) available so that:
1. More consistency for Kakashi's feat (outlier arguments would start popping up soon)
2. More scaling avenues for sub-kakashi level ninjas

 

[Damage3245]

"difficult to dodge" statements are only to hype up and compare against normal people not the characters on screen

What is this based on exactly?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Shikamaru and Choji (who are baseline jonin level at best) have no business scaling to a feat done by Kakashi (who's like low kage).

I wouldn't say that in terms of general speed

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

What is this based on exactly?

common sense

if an attack is stated unavoidable it clearly does not mean it is unavoidable in the most literal sense, especially after we outright see people evade it
yes its unavoidable in a general sense as the average fighter could wish to hit those levels, that should be your take away from those statements, databooks are there to sell you on their coolness factor+give info, we need to discern between factual things and hype statements, forcefully interpreting everything as hyper literal is not how powerscaling is done

This CRT is proposing that all mid tiers gets upgraded to Sub-Rel so it is very relevant to the topic

I didn't say it was to hype up its speed compared to the characters related to the scene, but a large majority of the characters covered in the same databook would supposedly scale far above it, which kind of defeats the purpose of such a statement. Shikamaru and Choji are also able to dodge a different elemental attack from Kakuzu (which is not slow, as it intercepts/tags a KM0 Naruto clone), lending credence to the idea that False Darkness is supposed to be an especially fast jutsu.

no? its saying people who are scaled to FD currently get a stat change


it's not introducing anything new bruh

 

[Damage3245]

common sense

if an attack is stated unavoidable it clearly does not mean it is unavoidable in the most literal sense, especially after we outright see people evade it
yes its unavoidable in a general sense as the average fighter could wish to hit those levels, that should be your take away from those statements, databooks are there to sell you on their coolness factor+give info, we need to discern between factual things and hype statements, forcefully interpreting everything as hyper literal is not how powerscaling is done

We don't need a statement that a jutsu is unavoidable to know that it is unavoidable to normal people; ordinary people can't dodge 99.9% of Shinobi's jutsu. If a jutsu is highlighted as being undodgeable then it is not being emphasized as a problem for ordinary people it, it's going to be a problem for the majority of shinobi, not just ordinary people. Most of the characters, like Shikamaru, Choji, etc. are not exceptional Shinobi or have noteworthy speed.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

no? its saying people who are scaled to FD currently get a stat change

In other words, mid tiers including Shikamaru and Choji

it's not introducing anything new bruh

I know, that's why I said this

I'm aware

Seems like a bit of a waste of time if everything is applied then gets changed again soon after. Like how Damage making the thread removing FTL top tiers before it got applied on a wide scale saved time in the long run (validity of that aside)

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

We don't need a statement that a jutsu is unavoidable to know that it is unavoidable to normal people; ordinary people can't dodge 99.9% of Shinobi's jutsu. If a jutsu is highlighted as being undodgeable then it is not being emphasized as a problem for ordinary people it, it's going to be a problem for the majority of shinobi, not just ordinary people. Most of the characters, like Shikamaru, Choji, etc. are not exceptional Shinobi or have noteworthy speed.

1) I clearly mentioned average fighter and not normal people or civilians idk why you intentionally swapped em around but regardless just because we could have known this via other means doesn't mean it CAN'T say that, Databooks are hype texts AND info, not purely info
either way, try playing that card it'll backfire on you
kurama is stated to wipe out earth, it can be ground or it can be planet, we know based on manga scenes that they obviously do destroy the grounds, so itll be redundant, lets upgrade mkcm2 naruto to 5B rn
the same example applies with Majestic Attire Susano's DB statement, you're doing what exactly what I said wasn't okay which is to take everything as hyper literal when it suits your desired conclusion,
2) Shikamaru and Choji are one of the top shinobi TF?, having feats against kakuzu and hidan already puts them out of the weird canon fodder narrative youre trying to paint onto them

3) FD doesnt even say its impossible to dodge , it just says its hard to evade, meaning your top speed is gonna still qualify, what is this argument

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Idk about that, there are plenty of examples of ninja running or jumping away from attacks of opponents comparable to them

Is Choji and Shikamaru even comparable to Kakuzu in the first place?

 

[Godernet]

I think a lot of people are underestimating Shikamaru and Choji here,

just being able to contend with Akatsuki/Elite Jounin level combatants at all still puts you in a very elite class of Shinobi that most never reach in their lifetimes (until Bort but that's a whole other issue)

Lightning being a very hard thing to dodge in general is fine, the average shinobi/civilian in naruto probably isn't, but it's more of a nothing statement when we're talking about people who are a few steps from Kage Level, which is at the time is the perceived pinnacle of the verse, they're not at a level where being capable of dodging lightning is an unreasonable assertion.

Not to mention nothing about the actual False Darkness feat indicates the speed of the Jutsu was too much for any of them to handle at all.

For one, nobody had anything at all to say about the Jutsu's speed before and after the attack, only Kakashi comments on the power of their jutsu.

And Shikamaru just pulled out a scroll to block/absorb it rather than just moving out of the way or getting ready to move, that suggests if anything he had every intention of standing his ground rather than avoiding it, with Chouji as his best friend, who trust Shikamaru more than practically anyone staying as support, whether that was the smartest decision by Shikamaru and Choji is a different story.

If you think Shikamaru pulled out and unraveled an entire scroll while FD was traveling then he definitely should have also had the ability to react and dodge the attack as well.

If you think Shikamaru pulled out the scroll in advance before the jutsu was cast, then he didn't have the intention of dodging the attack in the first place.

Kakashi intervening doesn't take away from that, nor does the statement.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Ino quite literally tells them to run, they didn't try to block it (which is plainly an inferior option) by choice. It takes less time to move your arm a little than get your whole body out of the way of an attack

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

So ino had faith in their ability to evade it?


https://media.**********.net/attachments/1068381282976935936/1342733621324288040/images.png?ex=67bab5a2&is=67b96422&hm=bf3b073844516f83f602fdfdf9fd48a7203fb55160bebd10db0b8be45bddc0f4&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=536&height=453

Also moving your arm in time before the attack hits is literally a reaction speed feat lol

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I am 99% sure that if Shikamaru's reaction feat was calced, it wouldn't be allat cause of distance

 

[Godernet]

Ino quite literally tells them to run, they didn't try to block it (which is plainly an inferior option) by choice. It takes less time to move your arm a little than get your whole body out of the way of an attack

Blocking is only an inferior means of dealing with an attack if you can't mitigate all of the damage being dealt, if you can then it doesn't matter how you dealt with the attack.

You could even argue that completely mitigating the damage is a more sound strategy in a team setting than just trying to avoid it because one of them could be forced into a compromising position that Hidan could use to separate them or Kakazu could use to just fire another attack while one of them was mid-movement, being forced away from teammates because they needed to evade an attack isn't exactly ideal.

Shikamaru also had the scroll in his hand at the ready with the intent of blocking it before he even knew what the jutsu Kakazu was about to fire would be.

He absolutely chose to attempt to block the attack.

 

[Floxy178]

I am 99% sure that if Shikamaru's reaction feat was calced, it wouldn't be allat cause of distance

True, but Choji's would.

 

[Damage3245]

He absolutely chose to attempt to block the attack.

Which would be an inane thing to if you witnessed an attack thirty times slower than you crawling towards you and you had all the time in the world to get out of the way of it.

So ino had faith in their ability to evade it?

Before Ino knew exactly what the jutsu was. She can't see the future and know exactly how fast the attack is.

 

[Godernet]

Which would be an inane thing to if you witnessed an attack thirty times slower than you crawling towards you and you had all the time in the world to get out of the way of it.

I mean I agree to an extent, though Shikamaru staying cautious and staying in a formation isn't exactly out of character for him, positional awareness is a big thing for him throughout the series.

tbh, I still feel like this back-and-forth is kinda just taking away from the initial point of the thread which was just updating values from an accepted calc.

it's better off for its own thread down the line, Part 2 speed scaling, in general, needs an overhaul.





-

 

[JohnHendrix212]

So what happens now? Is the current disagreement about whether Shikamaru and Choji scale to the feat?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Before Ino knew exactly what the jutsu was. She can't see the future and know exactly how fast the attack is.

Ass counter, she saw an attack and made an inference after assessing that

 

[karo_senpaii]

Ass counter, she saw an attack and made an inference after assessing that

sometimes you can be so sassy with your replies bro

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Blocking is only an inferior means of dealing with an attack if you can't mitigate all of the damage being dealt, if you can then it doesn't matter how you dealt with the attack.

It's taking an unnecessary risk when you don't know the exact properties or power of the jutsu

You could even argue that completely mitigating the damage is a more sound strategy in a team setting than just trying to avoid it because one of them could be forced into a compromising position that Hidan could use to separate them or Kakazu could use to just fire another attack while one of them was mid-movement, being forced away from teammates because they needed to evade an attack isn't exactly ideal.

Then stay with teammates while dodging. It's not like they don't have time to move together and travel in formation if the attack is the equivalent of a snail to them, they'd only be pressured to split apart if the attack was fast enough that they had to just get out of the way ASAP

Shikamaru also had the scroll in his hand at the ready with the intent of blocking it before he even knew what the jutsu Kakazu was about to fire would be.


He absolutely chose to attempt to block the attack.

Preparation when you don't know what's coming is good

BTW, since the anime is partially used for this calc, I think Shikamaru's comment about not having enough time is worth noting

True, but Choji's would.

It's not much different?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

It's taking an unnecessary risk when you don't know the exact properties or power of the jutsu

Then stay with teammates while dodging. It's not like they don't have time to move together and travel in formation if the attack is the equivalent of a snail to them, they'd only be pressured to split apart if the attack was fast enough that they had to just get out of the way ASAP

Preparation when you don't know what's coming is good

BTW, since the anime is partially used for this calc, I think Shikamaru's comment about not having enough time is worth noting

It's not much different?

When you’re engaged in combat, evasion derails your offensive stance

If you have the intention to counter it and continue fighting it lets you retain your motion and your combat flow, abruptly ending that and trying to get run away means your previously defensive position becomes vulnerable and any chances of taking advantage of enemy vulnerability is also lost, the locked on focus you had on them is ruined and you’d have to start over

We know the characters know for sure that the characters believe in their ability to dodge the attacks, they chose not to because it’s not ideal

 

[MinatoSparkle]

When you’re engaged in combat, evasion derails your offensive stance

If you have the intention to counter it and continue fighting it lets you retain your motion and your combat flow, abruptly ending that and trying to get run away means your previously defensive position becomes vulnerable and any chances of taking advantage of enemy vulnerability is also lost, the locked on focus you had on them is ruined and you’d have to start over

They weren't in an offensive stance and Kakuzu wasn't vulnerable since he wasn't attacking himself

We know the characters know for sure that the characters believe in their ability to dodge the attacks, they chose not to because it’s not ideal

Ino told them to run despite seeing Shikamaru wielding a scroll, they didn't think to themselves that they could dodge but just chose not to. Observing a situation from a distance isn't the same as directly seeing an attack coming at you at high speed.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

They weren't in an offensive stance

they were in a combat oriented stance denoted by Shikamaru pulling out an entire scroll before the attack hit them, Shikamaru and Choji prior to the scene get ready to deal with Kakuzu by verbally confirming their next tasks in the fight

Kakuzu wasn't vulnerable since he wasn't attacking himself

?

Ino told them to run despite seeing Shikamaru wielding a scroll, they didn't think to themselves that they could dodge but just chose not to. Observing a situation from a distance isn't the same as directly seeing an attack coming at you at high speed.

The scroll wielding was BEFORE the attack was even sent out, that's when Shikamaru was getting ready to fight without knowing about the lightning attack, so that idea is just false because his initial intent wasn't a counter but normally combating him, that's what Ino knows, she does not know about his later intentions of countering the FD

they didn't think to themselves that they could dodge but just chose not to.

unbacked presupposition that's debunked in the post you're replying to

Observing a situation from a distance isn't the same as directly seeing an attack coming at you at high speed.

?

 

[Floxy178]

Then stay with teammates while dodging. It's not like they don't have time to move together and travel in formation if the attack is the equivalent of a snail to them, they'd only be pressured to split apart if the attack was fast enough that they had to just get out of the way ASAP

It's ~19.5x difference but I still don't understand how it's related to their reaction speed.

It's not much different?

It is. Because it's done in the same timeframe as we used for Kakashi.

If we compare movement between that 2 positions of his hands, FD has already passed most of distance by the beginning of that movement, so "great distance" thing wouldn't work at all.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

they were in a combat oriented stance denoted by Shikamaru pulling out an entire scroll before the attack hit them, Shikamaru and Choji prior to the scene get ready to deal with Kakuzu by verbally confirming their next tasks in the fighthttps://scans.lastation.us/manga/Naruto-Digital-Colored-Comics/0334-013.png

This is Shikamaru preparing to defend not attack, in the very page you sent he's talking about an attack Kakuzu is going to send at them

?

You said evading makes it harder to capitalize on an opponent's vulnerability but Kakuzu wasn't in a vulnerable position

The scroll wielding was BEFORE the attack was even sent out, that's when Shikamaru was getting ready to fight without knowing about the lightning attack, so that idea is just false because his initial intent wasn't a counter but normally combating him, that's what Ino knows, she does not know about his later intentions of countering the FD

?? No the scroll was to defend

unbacked presupposition that's debunked in the post you're replying to

I'm not saying they thought they could NOT dodge it, just that they're not the ones who mentioned dodging

?

A plane looks pretty slow from a distance even though it's way faster than you. The difference isn't that great due to a lesser distance but there would still be some difference in perception

It's ~19.5x difference but I still don't understand how it's related to their reaction speed.

It is. Because it's done in the same timeframe as we used for Kakashi.

If we compare movement between that 2 positions of his hands, FD has already passed most of distance by the beginning of that movement, so "great distance" thing wouldn't work at all.

I'm fine with Choji's reaction speed being around lightning speed sure, I'm talking about movement and combat speed primarily tho

 

[LordTracer]

The way this thread has spiraled is kinda absurd.

The OP is proposing to update the profiles with an accepted calc, and that’s it. Scaling isn’t being changed, only values are. Everyone complaining about scaling, you’re free to make your own thread about it, but that’s not what this one is about.

With that being said, the OP is fine.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

now that we have 3 votes, I'll start applying changes


I'll respond to sparkle's stuff later possibly in the general disc thread

 

[Godernet]

It's taking an unnecessary risk when you don't know the exact properties or power of the jutsu

true, but he still chose to do it for whatever reason.

Then stay with teammates while dodging. It's not like they don't have time to move together and travel in formation if the attack is the equivalent of a snail to them, they'd only be pressured to split apart if the attack was fast enough that they had to just get out of the way ASAP

trying to make sense of Shikamaru's actions when he doesn't explain them himself is pointless, he did what he did, and Kakashi intervened.

no one ever brings up the speed of the attack in a noteworthy way, Kakazu never uses it again and opts to spam other attacks instead.

Shikamaru never tries to avoid the attack and if anything seems adamant about standing his ground although we know from his and Ino's reactions that they can definitely perceive the attack.

Kakashi performs a feat against the jutsu that is fitting with his other lore, and Shikamaru and Chouji scale to Kakashi.

Skepticism that Shikamaru didn't decide on an alternative method of dealing with the attack shouldn't dismiss him from scaling to the feat when he has scaling to the person who performed the feat.

Preparation when you don't know what's coming is good

BTW, since the anime is partially used for this calc, I think Shikamaru's comment about not having enough time is worth noting

using the frame-by-frame feat in animation for a calc is not the same as using dialogue that didn't exist in the manga

the comment doesn't even make sense in the anime since Shikamaru goes on to dodge four more lightning bolts with less time to react in the anime right after.

are we gonna use those too?

I'm probably not gonna drop any more comments on this since as Tracer said, this isn't a scaling thread.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Since it's been concluded I'm not gonna comment on this anymore either, might make a CRT about my earlier comments regarding Shunshin/Raikiri in the future

 

[Sasukesama0492]

now that we have 3 votes, I'll start applying changes


I'll respond to sparkle's stuff later possibly in the general disc thread

Ig the changes you applied are not correct

Kakashi Intercepts False Darkness Recalc

vsbattles.fandom.com

25141.890359 Mach or 0.028765 c (Sub-Relativistic) (ACCEPTED)
FTL+ ( 28,7455613c)
MFTL (143,7278065c)
God Tier's MFTL (287,455613c)
Isnt that how it should be?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

no, I went with the 0.020053c version because it is actually approved, the arm swing one only has one cgm approval
2 is the bare minimum so i played it safe